India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 29 May 2014 10:29

Cosmo_R wrote:Dan Quayle put it succinctly : "What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Quayle

I don't like the guy who said DQ is an intellectual midget but I have to say fair is fair. Kissinger is right at least in this instance.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 29 May 2014 10:33

anmol wrote:Ashley J. Tellis on what we should do to "get attention".

Sitting in America, these Gora jokers keep giving advice to Indian government without anyone asking for it.

member_23651 · Post by **member_23651** » 29 May 2014 10:48

Guys is Ashley J Tellis, an Indian origin American?

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 29 May 2014 12:22

Khan government activates this India experts whenever NDA government is in power? This means that their CIA sources do get a beating when non congress government is in power that they feel the need to start alternate channels to access the government. Interesting. This guy was in hibernation for ten years when congis were in power.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 29 May 2014 12:35

Actually he wasn't. These guys are active throughout. It just so happens that we have a very strong government now which has caught all of them off-guard. They can't use western frameworks to ascertain the intent of a dharmic government. Modi doesn't think like them and his methods of management and concealment are very different from the West is used to. He is a short-medium term friend because of China, but long term enemy.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 29 May 2014 13:02

AnantS wrote:Guys is Ashley J Tellis, an Indian origin American?

Yes he is an American of Indian origin. If I remember correctly he (his family) is from Mumbai.

member_23651 · Post by **member_23651** » 29 May 2014 13:22

Thanks Arun for the information!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 29 May 2014 16:06

As Tellis tells it

Note the fallacies in the recent prior posts:

1. Ashley Tellis is not "gora" as the racist post above put it. Not that it should matter whether he is gora or kala or color #8BA870.
2. He may be "sitting over there" but he visits India a lot, has worked in India a lot, and knows much more about top-level Indian policy-making and pro-India efforts in the US, than practically anyone "s(h)itting over here" with their thumbs up their (brains).
3. He has been consistently pro-INDIA.
4. One can find all these things out in about 1 minute on Googleshwara, which is less time than is needed to type out a worthless post like this.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 29 May 2014 16:52

UlanBatori wrote:As Tellis tells it

Note the fallacies in the recent prior posts:

1. Ashley Tellis is not "gora" as the racist post above put it. Not that it should matter whether he is gora or kala or color #8BA870.
2. He may be "sitting over there" but he visits India a lot, has worked in India a lot, and knows much more about top-level Indian policy-making and pro-India efforts in the US, than practically anyone "s(h)itting over here" with their thumbs up their (brains).
3. He has been consistently pro-INDIA.
4. One can find all these things out in about 1 minute on Googleshwara, which is less time than is needed to type out a worthless post like this.

Can you please control your bile? I am entitled to my view that India needs to give two hoots for the "advice" of outsiders (including US citizens of Indian descent like S Vardarajan) to Indian ministers, much like China gives them the middle finger.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 May 2014 07:12

Once again the gratuitous "advice" from the US "experts".We remember Tellis advising us in the aftermath of the MMRCA deal that we should've instead of choosing the Rafale on technical grounds,chosen a "relationship" with the US by choosing one of its birds.The "Master-Slave" relationship is the only one that the US understands. Unfortunately the US has still failed to smell the chai. Our new PM is an "India-centric" individual,who has the grass from the grassroots still sticking to the soles of his feet,does not wear Florsheim or western designer booties,and has been educated not in an ivy-league establishment from the US or Ox-Bridge from the UK,like the perfect flunkey,Snake-oil Singh.

Tellis instead should be advising the US's own establishment,the White House,SD,Pentagon,that a new era is dawning in India and that yanqui dreams of inveigling India into a pan-Americana anti-Chinese front is passe.India is going to be more assertive and independent in her defence and foreign policy.It will take decisions that are primarily in India's interests first.Already some analysts have been demanding an urgent "yea" to the offer of an island base in Mauritius,stationing a sqd. of Flankers in Tajikistan and closer cooperation with anti-Chinese entities in Asia.While the US may be happy at a more pro-active attitude from India emerging vis-a-vis China,it will not enjoy an independent doctrine,a "Pax-Indica" that was clearly hinted at when Mr.Modi invited the leaders of the SAARC group to his swearing in.The Indo-US relationship should have a solid foundation of equality,not subservience.There is a limit as to how much of flattery that Jokerry can bring to Sushma's table without it being dumped into the WPB. If the US concentrates first upon economic cooperation and cements business ties ,it will have its inevitable spill-over into the strategic realm.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 30 May 2014 07:26

Can somebody write a general purpose Open Letter to all the Open letters out there and also incoming future ones!

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 30 May 2014 09:44

Philip: you realize booty has a different meaning in American slang, right?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 May 2014 16:52

Can you please control your bile? I am entitled to my view

Reminds me of the old saying:

If you look at me, do I convey the impression that I the one that stole the plate?

Dear SanjayC:
Your sense of entitlement is so much better than the quality of your posts, congratulations!

Oh, so YOU are the who made the false and racist post! Now everyone notices, of course.
I did not notice, because it did not matter who did. When I see a post that is obviously racist and false (calling Ashley Tellis a "gora", for instance) I am equally entitled to point out that the post is racist and false, as could be seen in a few seconds of exerting honest diligence. The trouble with not doing exerting that diligence is what Churchill pointed out:

Sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone wonder whether you are a fool (or in this case a racist), than to open it and remove all doubt!

Nothing personal of course, sorry it made you pout and

. Tsk-tsk!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 May 2014 20:28

Sorry to say but Tellis should keep his gratitious advise to himself.

MEA is a bunch of half retarded folks since last twenty years.
They need to re-build the cadre.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 30 May 2014 22:18

AnantS wrote:Guys is Ashley J Tellis, an Indian origin American?

He's goan if I remember correctly. He's a kook.

He tries to come across as an "insider" from the indian side and sometimes from the american side. Though he actually works for US interests.

Most brush him aside. You'll find his name a lot in the india-us discussions though not an important person. He's an outsider to the indian side.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 30 May 2014 22:31

Gus wrote:
Nandu wrote:Just to be clear, this restriction was invented by bureaucrats. The Citizenship Amendment Act of 2005 merely says the government can register overseas citizens of India. Nowhere in the act does it say that these people are not citizens of India.
i actually think this is a US created issue. i think (correct me if wrong) very few countries give citizenship to kids of foreign citizens just because they are born in US. and probably even fewer insist that they stay as citizens until they become adults to renounce it. this does create problems for parents who move back and forth between india and US.

i read that this citizenship for kids clause is to protect people from being deported/prosecuted as non-citizens because parents were immigrants (legal/illegal/slaves etc).

Gus, don't want to beat a dead horse (please check out the facts/issues yourself - they are quite evident
but since you asked "correct me if wrong"...

It is silly, to frame it as "US created issue" ... or use terms like "insist as stay as citizens" etc..
Citizenship is a right (not a burden).. you have a right to keep it, if you want (or until you renounce it) use the privileges it gives.

Yes, you may be right that many countries do not give citizenship to people born in the country.. heck many don't give that right if you are a woman, or of wrong religion or race or not enough pure etc..
(Even in US there is lot of pressure - coming mainly from "right" - (IMO people with racist views) - to change the law)... but hopefully we are talking about countries like US and India which are inherently democratic and secular.

India's laws, BTW, per citizenship by birth are very similar to US and until recently were same as US.. that is if you are born in India (after 26 Jan 1950), or "resided" in India prior to that (" domiciled in the territory of India as on 26 November 1949" - which is even more forgiving than USA) you are citizen of India (even if your parents are "foreign")...

I guess, same kind of pressure which exists in US, made India change its laws in 2004. Now one requires at least one parent a Indian citizen, and the other NOT a " an illegal migrant at the time of their birth"

But it is still much better than our neighbors ... where woman still get half the rights.. and infidel gets similar treatment.. I for one, don't see any greatness in that kind of laws..

Anyway coming back to the topic - or issues you raised..IMO, it is NOT US laws, but sheer nonsense of unclarity in Indian laws which has internal contradiction if you try to follow it.

Mind you almost ALL other countries, which do NOT give dual citizenship, are (unlike India) quite clear in forming that part of the law...That is, once you are an adult, you have to decide to give up the other citizenship to keep theirs... (As long as you are still a minor, you can wait till you are responsible enough to decide).

Simple fact is, US law is pretty clear and understandable - If you are born in US, you have right to be a citizen, and entitled to all the benefits a citizen gets. You keep that citizenship, unless you decide to renounce it. ( your parents, or Babus in other country have no right to take that citizenship from you..too bad if they like to whine etc..)

Indian Law is quite murky - They should be able to answer a simple question
(irrespective of what US law is)
Does a child, of Indian nationals, born in US, has right to be Indian citizen?

(Mind you, it is absurd to whine about US laws (or how one gets automatic citizenship by birth).. point is what India Law is and can one put is clearly? - do you really want the indian laws framed as - if the child is born in Saudi Arabia, (s)he has right to be Indian Citizen, but if (s)he is born in US .. "we are not sure"..)

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 May 2014 22:58

Does a child, of Indian nationals, born in US, has right to be Indian citizen?

What is unclear about that? There must be zillions of ppl who were born, say, in Gelf countries to Indian citizen parents, who are Indian citizens.

Same facility is obviously available to kids born in USA. But the point is, until some age one can simply go across borders on one's Mother's passport (as I have gone..). This is necessary to maintain the Dignity and Gravitas of the border crossing event. Otherwise:

Inspecteaure Clouseau: Your Passeporte, s'il vous plait!

Me: Gooooooo!!!!!

U get the drift...

They have just made it OK for kids born in USA to be allowed to get US passports. When they are 18, I think they can just as well apply for an Indian passport, and drop the USC.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 30 May 2014 23:29

UBji - many of my nephews and nieces, have kept both US and Indian Passports, till they become adults.
Everyone knew about it, and there was no problem. When they travelled, one used Indian passport to enter India and US passport to enter US. So I guess, in practice, it may not be a big deal. (I was simply surprised by all the ruckus about DK's children having US passports)

My point was simply - why make it so complicated? (For example if one is an american citizen (if (s)he has american passport or not is of little importance - after all not all citizens care to get a passport) - why should Indian law gets confused if the person has an american passport or not.. yet that kind of language is there (that is, they care only if you have US passport or not (not if you are an US citizen or not), at the time of application) when one applies for Indian passport for a child born in US)

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 30 May 2014 23:36

Amber G. wrote:Gus, don't want to beat a dead horse (please check out the facts/issues yourself - they are quite evident
but since you asked "correct me if wrong"...

i asked to be corrected if wrong on the number of countries that make their citizenship a right for kids born in their land, of foreign parents.

Not a vazha vazha kozha kozha same ol same ol from you.

It is silly, to frame it as "US created issue" ... or use terms like "insist as stay as citizens" etc..

no its not silly because US is doing their exceptionalism crap. and yes i will use the word "insist as stay as citizens" because that is what the US does for kids born to indian citizens in the US.

Citizenship is a right (not a burden).. you have a right to keep it, if you want (or until you renounce it) use the privileges it gives.

it is a burden if it annoys me. it is a burden if i have to wait for 18 yrs to renounce it. do you get this idea at all?

India's laws, BTW, per citizenship by birth are very similar to US and until recently were same as US.. that is if you are born in India (after 26 Jan 1950), or "resided" in India prior to that (" domiciled in the territory of India as on 26 November 1949" - which is even more forgiving than USA) you are citizen of India (even if your parents are "foreign")...

stop.

india does not give citizenship for kids born in india to foreign citizens today (actually after 1987). at least one parent has to be an indian citizen at time of birth.

please stop introducing all sorts of nonsense to a specific scenario.

the scenario is indian citizen parents having a kid in US. if i go back to india, the kid cannot be an indian citizen because US considers them to be US citizens until they become 18 and renounce it. this causes an issue where parents want their kid to be indian citizens.

Simple fact is, US law is pretty clear and understandable - If you are born in US, you have right to be a citizen, and entitled to all the benefits a citizen gets. You keep that citizenship, unless you decide to renounce it. ( your parents, or Babus in other country have no right to take that citizenship from you..too bad if they like to whine etc..)

\

it may be hard for you to understand this

but hear it from me..

US citizenship is not the end all and be all for me. i could care less about US conferring this amazing rights to my child.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 30 May 2014 23:39

Amber G. wrote:UBji - many of my nephews and nieces, have kept both US and Indian Passports, till they become adults.
Everyone knew about it, and there was no problem. When they travelled, one used Indian passport to enter India and US passport to enter US. So I guess, in practice, it may not be a big deal. (I was simply surprised by all the ruckus about DK's children having US passports)

so its ok to break indian laws for your convenience. but no breaking american laws coz "the law is the law". got it.

My point was simply - why make it so complicated? (For example if one is an american citizen (if (s)he has american passport or not is of little importance - after all not all citizens care to get a passport) - why should Indian law gets confused if the person has an american passport or not.. yet that kind of language is there (that is, they care only if you have US passport or not (not if you are an US citizen or not), at the time of application) when one applies for Indian passport for a child born in US)

i am sure it is the same rule if the kid has djibouti passport. regardless of language in a website.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 30 May 2014 23:51

Gus wrote:
Amber G. wrote:UBji - many of my nephews and nieces, have kept both US and Indian Passports, till they become adults.
Everyone knew about it, and there was no problem. When they travelled, one used Indian passport to enter India and US passport to enter US. So I guess, in practice, it may not be a big deal. (I was simply surprised by all the ruckus about DK's children having US passports)
so its ok to break indian laws for your convenience. but no breaking american laws coz "the law is the law". got it.

Point is NO Laws were broken.. (Yes, according to the highest authority - of Indian Consulate or People in India who were consulted, and found no issues with this - )

.. got it.

No you don't get it. Otherwise you will not be throwing mud and issue pathetic innuendo about the things you know very little. These people (The kids who grew up to become fine citizens which everyone should be proud of) had infinitely more integrity, ethics, honesty than you can possibly imagine.

Over and out.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 31 May 2014 00:23

Gus wrote: US citizenship is not the end all and be all for me. i could care less about US conferring this amazing rights to my child.

Don't bear your child on US soil then.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 31 May 2014 01:42

Amber G. wrote:When they travelled, one used Indian passport to enter India and US passport to enter US. So I guess, in practice, it may not be a big deal. (I was simply surprised by all the ruckus about DK's children having US passports)

Amber G ji: What I understand of this whole mess of US/India passports etc. is that some people have been misusing the facilities. Indian babus are trying to close these loopholes one by one. Understandably due to resistance from their own retired seniors the rules are vague so that some who know the small print can get away with exploiting those loopholes but for general public these crooked avenues ("vankara dari" in Telugu or "teda rasta" in Hindi) not apparent. and visible.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 31 May 2014 01:46

KrishnaK wrote:
Gus wrote: US citizenship is not the end all and be all for me. i could care less about US conferring this amazing rights to my child.
Don't bear your child on US soil then.

great. be separated from expecting wife and new born for many months and take travel expenses around 5 grand. that is your soln.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 31 May 2014 02:12

^
Gus saar please to self censor the references unfitting for a family forum.

KrishnaK wrote:
Gus wrote: US citizenship is not the end all and be all for me. i could care less about US conferring this amazing rights to my child.
Don't bear your child on US soil then.

What good is Massa citizenship when your kids (and their kids) are still called "Indian" by the mainstream (offcourse never to your face but always at the back of the mind - or when a bunch of "All American" families get together.)
Now my el-cheapo suggestion is for all to start applying bleach (like el-Jacko) until you too are welcomed to merge into the "All American" mainstream.

http://www.vox.com/2014/5/29/5763414/ra ... ontestants

^
Funniest of the lot

saip · Post by **saip** » 31 May 2014 02:36

The problem is that Indian babus go to sleep and then wake up one day and come up with idiotic rules. Take for example when they realized that people were using their Indian passports to enter India after acquiring US passport they come up with "Renunciation of Citizenship" thing but provided no forms or fee structure with the result each of the Consulates came up with their own forms and fees. When I wanted to apply for OCI card I calculated that I needed to pay almost $2000 in SFO but only around $120 if I applied in NY. Then after lot of protests and lobbying they reduced the fee to $20!. Even now I do not think they have standardized the forms. Why cant the Indian Embassy prescribed the forms to all the consulates? I know under the Indian Citizenship Act you lose Indian citizenship act if you acquire citizenship of another country and I think the Indian Passport has some condition that you have to return the passport in such cases.

Also, when I am renouncing the citizenship what exactly am I renouncing? When I became US citizen I lost my Indian citizenship. How can I renounce something I do not have? By signing the affidavit am I committing perjury?

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 31 May 2014 02:54

matrimc wrote:
Amber G. wrote: Amber G ji: What I understand of this whole mess of US/India passports etc. is that some people have been misusing the facilities. Indian babus are trying to close these loopholes one by one. Understandably due to resistance from their own retired seniors the rules are vague so that some who know the small print can get away with exploiting those loopholes but for general public these crooked avenues ("vankara dari" in Telugu or "teda rasta" in Hindi) not apparent. and visible.

Marrimc ji - With all due respect, I am sure you will agree with me if you really look at it from any reliable source, at least in this particular case people are NOT misusing the facilities, and talking about " closing the loopholes" is only excuse for the babus to hide their incompetence for introducing self-contradiction in their wording in the first place .... This is a issue where honestly no complication should exist in the first place. (In my view, there ought to be a straight forward way, for example, for DK's children to have Indian passports).

This is true for almost all other decent countries..If US citizen's kids are born abroad, they are still US citizen. Period. This is true for other countries - even those who do not grant dual citizenship- they make a special provision for children born of their citizens outside their countries. (Think about it, citizenship rights etc are relevant mostly for adults - children can not vote, can not run for office, can not join military, and do not even have many legal rights ... so it only fair that the option of renouncing one citizenship decision is made when they are adults). Even in India, this was no problem in the past, (as I said in case of some people I know) because the rule about "dual passports" was explicitly for adults. From what I have been told, the confusion arose, because some genius removed the "adult" part from the rule when these laws were revised/rewritten..

BTW BJP is most understanding in these issues, they have less issues with dual citizenship, so hopefully all this nonsense will evaporate soon.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 31 May 2014 02:54

@saip ^^^: "Also, when I am renouncing the citizenship what exactly am I renouncing? When I became US citizen I lost my Indian citizenship. How can I renounce something I do not have? By signing the affidavit am I committing perjury?"

When you obtained US citizenship, you did not (explicitly) renounce your Indian citizenship. You only swore allegiance to the US. The US allows dual citizenship.

For many years, the practice was to get US citizenship while the Indian passport was still valid, take a copy of it, go to India and claim it was lost. A new Indian passport was then issued whose numbers were different from the one the Indian Embassy might have in its db which correlated to the one cited in the US naturalization process.

In short, you need to explicitly renounce your Indian citizenship in order to get the OCI card or whatever.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 31 May 2014 02:59

saip wrote:
Also, when I am renouncing the citizenship what exactly am I renouncing? When I became US citizen I lost my Indian citizenship. How can I renounce something I do not have? By signing the affidavit am I committing perjury?

How easy is it to renounce US citizenship? I have heard interesting stories about the complication in giving it up. One of the reason being tax compliance issues. As a US citizen, they pay tax on global income even if they don't reside in US. I believe due to dual taxation treaty, the issue is solved with most countries. But AFAIK US does not conform to the treaty if it's with anyone other than the 18 countries with whom they have a visa free travel arrangement.

saip · Post by **saip** » 31 May 2014 03:04

Under S 9 of Indian Citizenship Act, 1955, I ceased to be an Indian citizen when I voluntarily acquired US citizenship. Then on that day onwards I am no longer an Indian citizen. Why should I renounce when the Act expressly cancelled my citizenship?

9.Termination of citizenship

(1)Any citizen of India who by naturalisation, registration or otherwise voluntarily acquires, or has at any time between the 26th January, 1950 and the commencement of this Act voluntarily acquired, the citizenship of another country shall, upon such acquisition or, as the case may be, such commencement, cease to be a citizen of India:

Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall apply to a citizen of India who, during any war in which India may be engaged, voluntarily acquires the citizenship of another country, until the Central Government otherwise directs.

(2)If any question arises as to whether, when or how any person has acquired the citizenship of another country, it shall be determined by such authority, in such manner, and having regard to such rules of evidence, as may be prescribed in this behalf.

saip · Post by **saip** » 31 May 2014 03:05

saip · Post by **saip** » 31 May 2014 03:15

panduranghari wrote:
saip wrote:
Also, when I am renouncing the citizenship what exactly am I renouncing? When I became US citizen I lost my Indian citizenship. How can I renounce something I do not have? By signing the affidavit am I committing perjury?
How easy is it to renounce US citizenship? I have heard interesting stories about the complication in giving it up. One of the reason being tax compliance issues. As a US citizen, they pay tax on global income even if they don't reside in US. I believe due to dual taxation treaty, the issue is solved with most countries. But AFAIK US does not conform to the treaty if it's with anyone other than the 18 countries with whom they have a visa free travel arrangement.

I am sure you can renounce US citizenship by swearing an affidavit before a consular officer. They do tax global income and I do pay some tax on my Indian Income (not much but I started declaring it from 2013 onwards)

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 31 May 2014 03:30

Or if you take up a citizenship of a country that does not allow dual citizenship. Usually that country (in this case India) would have a requirement that you renounce allegiance to all other countries when you become a citizen of that country. US law is that if you officially claim either vocally or on a written document that you are not a citizen of US, then you would lose US citizenship. Recently there was this case of a US born man who moved to Canada after marrying a Canadian citizen 20 years back. Then recently he got a notice to pay back taxes with fine to the tune of $5K or he would be sent to jail. He paid and then renounced US citizenship publicly and wrote a letter to NYT or some such as he felt that while billionaires are getting away with paying low taxes common people like him (who was/is a teacher) are getting dumped upon.

Recent recession warped US economic fabric so much that they are trying to scrape a billion dollah here and billion dollah there in the hopes of "and soon we are talking real money". SS. medicare are finished. No need to even talk about medicaid. War spending is out of control so is the appetite for useless evanescent social media. We have all seen what happened to reality shows.

saip · Post by **saip** » 31 May 2014 04:12

When it comes to babudom even USA has strange rules. In spite of being Techno govt one dept does not talk to another. Imm and nat dept does not inform the SS admn about change of your status when you become US citizen. Normally there is no problem until you need something from the SS admn. Google and other tech companies for example use electronic verification of employment eligibility. They send your info to SS admn and they verify the eligibility. But if you claim you are a citizen and SS admn does not have that info updated they will reject you. Remember though as per their records you are a green card holder and eligible for employment. Because your status does not match their records, you are considered ineligible for employment!

My son got into this problem when he joined Google. Even though he had SS card without any endorsements and drivers license (which are sufficient to prove your employment eligibility for most companies) Google told him they can not employ him until SS OKs his status. So he goes to SS to update the info but then he finds his Passport has expired a few weeks ago and SS wont accept it as proof of citizenship even though it is just a matter of mailing the passport to passport office to get it renewed without any other proof. But it takes 6 weeks to get it renewed and Google wont wait. So he buys an airline ticket to Mexico and goes to Passport office the next day, voila, it is renewed immediately because it is emergency! After this I updated mine and my SHQs status with SS dept. You never know when you will need it.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 31 May 2014 04:16

^^^ "electronic verification of employment eligibility" is well known for its inaccuracy.. (about 2-3% records are inaccurate) and has caused quite a lot of problems. I don't know now, but I heard that it was very hard to correct those errors.

Wrt to your previous post ...

The critical part, as I was told, in the following is "...voluntarily acquired, the citizenship of another country shall, upon such acquisition or, as the case may be, such commencement, cease to be a citizen of India

Now, for a child, (s)he did NOT voluntary "acquired" any citizenship. (s)he was automatically a citizen by birth, and certainly NO acquisition happened after (s)he got Indian Passport. (BTW, to get the indian passport the rules still are: (see eg here

his/her parents are Indian citizens, the person's is registered, and has not gotten any US passport (at the time of applying -).. (it does not say the person has to renounce the US citizenship - just that one has not gotten any passport)

(Point is, even if a person gets US passport, this is not an act of "acquiring" any citizenship. (This is quite different than process of naturalization)

(This is why I say, the rules are ridiculously unclear - Just say straight forward what is to be said)

saip wrote:Under S 9 of Indian Citizenship Act, 1955, I ceased to be an Indian citizen when I voluntarily acquired US citizenship. Then on that day onwards I am no longer an Indian citizen. Why should I renounce when the Act expressly cancelled my citizenship?

9.Termination of citizenship

(1)Any citizen of India who by naturalisation, registration or otherwise voluntarily acquires, or has at any time between the 26th January, 1950 and the commencement of this Act voluntarily acquired, the citizenship of another country shall, upon such acquisition or, as the case may be, such commencement, cease to be a citizen of India:

Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall apply to a citizen of India who, during any war in which India may be engaged, voluntarily acquires the citizenship of another country, until the Central Government otherwise directs.

(2)If any question arises as to whether, when or how any person has acquired the citizenship of another country, it shall be determined by such authority, in such manner, and having regard to such rules of evidence, as may be prescribed in this behalf.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 31 May 2014 04:45

Lilo wrote: What good is Massa citizenship when your kids (and their kids) are still called "Indian" by the mainstream (offcourse never to your face but always at the back of the mind - or when a bunch of "All American" families get together.)

Precisely why I said, fly back India and have your kids there. The rest of your post is racist garbage.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 31 May 2014 05:23

KrishnaK wrote:
Lilo wrote: What good is Massa citizenship when your kids (and their kids) are still called "Indian" by the mainstream (offcourse never to your face but always at the back of the mind - or when a bunch of "All American" families get together.)
Precisely why I said, fly back India and have your kids there. The rest of your post is racist garbage.

Wull, hullo dere Massa !

Yess 'um Massa - me pakin me bags now , me goin to Indyah far me pickins
Uh oh ..Wait 'um .... Dang my coons massa !!
.
.
Massa youse is alwasy right, but my massa are youse fr'gitten i yam aal the ready in Indyah !?
.
.
.
.
um yes'm? what youse say ?...... Massa ?!

{Stares into the ether with a typical slaves clueless look, waiting for massa's directions to make sense so that he can finally proceed towards this seasons cotton pickings)

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 31 May 2014 05:32

Amber G. wrote:
...

When they travelled, one used Indian passport to enter India and US passport to enter US. So I guess, in practice, it may not be a big deal. (I was simply surprised by all the ruckus about DK's children having US passports)

...

India has what they call exit migration check. When your nephews and nieces are leaving India, they will be asked, "Where is your visa to enter the US?"

Your nephews and nieces will reply, "I do not need visa. I have US passport to enter the US."

Immigration officer will say ... you know what he will say. You catch the drift.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 May 2014 05:45

KrishnaK wrote:Precisely why I said, fly back India and have your kids there. The rest of your post is racist garbage.

(Agencies Reporting): While the decade is still young, the panel composed of jurists, civil rights activists, negro league baseball pitchers, and union of the brown greengrocers and hotel employees have historically awarded this post as the:

Most Racist Post Of The Decade.

The honor is tentative and may yet be withdrawn if a repeat vote is required by an even more xenophobic head-in-the-sand false ethnic association prose is compiled in the remainder of the decade. The award carries along with the recognition, a cow turd, for encouraging sustainable energy use. U-NSN

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 31 May 2014 06:04

Karan Dixit wrote:
Amber G. wrote:
...

When they travelled, one used Indian passport to enter India and US passport to enter US. So I guess, in practice, it may not be a big deal. (I was simply surprised by all the ruckus about DK's children having US passports)

...

India has what they call exit migration check. When your nephews and nieces are leaving India, they will be asked, "Where is your visa to enter the US?"

Your nephews and nieces will reply, "I do not need visa. I have US passport to enter the US."

Immigration officer will say ... you know what he will say. You catch the drift.

This has happened at least a few dozen times.. (Since 1960's)..so I don't know what exactly happened in each case (obviously I was not there every time) but generally Immigration officers were very polite and wished a good journey.. as I told, this was not even an issue in earlier days

(I think, IIRC, while leaving India, if a kid has a US passport, it does NOT need a visa..like I said, I don't think they will ask where is "US Visa" on an US passport. I hope that you know that US citizens do NOT require a visa to enter US) As said before .. coming to US (which BTW generally means leaving India) the US passport was used.... (And as said before, according to authorities, no laws were broken (or even twisted).. nothing sneaky about it despite what few people think here)

Of course (as I mentioned earlier) with new confusion clause added in new rules, it is not clear that having two passports by a minor is allowed or not allowed per Indian Laws. (The newspaper article, which I posted earlier, quoting GOI officials tend to say that it is okay ... while armchair debaters say it is haram, so take your pick whom you are going to believe..)

Sorry if it bothers a few people here who even go out of way to be rude, ...but it did not bother the officers (both in India or in US).. and nor it should.

Added later: what if the people (at consulates etc) paid less attention to all this tamasa and put more diligence where it needed, eg looking more carefully at application of David Headly types..

(But then seeing the absolute hostility and vitriol, not to mention uncivil language ("screw you") tells more about some people here)