India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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KrishnaK
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby KrishnaK » 08 Jun 2014 23:52

matrimc wrote:KrishnaK, it is in neither party's interest to not to improve relations. I am not sure what you are arguing for. If you are saying that India should swallow all indignities that continue to be heaped on the American friendly Indian right and it's very popular leader who is also massively mandated to deal with not just US but every it her country, then there cones a time that actually distancing from the US might be a good tactic till president Obama or some other decision maker who is driving India leaves office.
I'm arguing that distancing from the US is not possible, let alone a good tactic. It's not quite like playing katti/batti when we were kids.

By the way, the link you provided does not only give no reason for India not to put the relationship only in transactional terms, it is actually irrelevant, unless, unless one breaks the import-export items down to the last detail and rebalances the portfolio. It would take sometime for the contracts to run out but this is the time to do it and once India starts on a oath of disengagement, then it us out of the hands of the US who placed their bets on the wrong horse in Indian elections.
It's the state's responsibility to do its best for its citizens so long as the state isn't threatened in anyway. Which is why our mandarins continue to lobby hard on outsourcing and H1Bs. All this transactional business is a figment of your imagination to help you cope with your hurt feelings.

Neither the treatment of modi nor khobragade can be a reason for starting on a oath of disengagement, whatever that means. As far as betting on the wrong horse in the Indian elections, the US miscalculated. They clearly see the advantage in having a decisive leader in India and will engage modi vigourously. Savour the fun as they try to make up for their stupidity. That's all it's worth for now.

JE Menon
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 09 Jun 2014 00:18

>>Savour the fun as they try to make up for their stupidity. That's all it's worth for now.

Exactly right.

TSJones
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby TSJones » 09 Jun 2014 01:58

RoyG wrote:
vic wrote:I don't mind Obama trying to make India 1000 Trillion dollar economy while wrecking his own but the first order of business has to be Police rape of AES and US Embassy officials evading Indian Taxes.


He won't do anything. The time frame for action is long gone. Obama needs us more than we need them. If they want us to counter SCO they will have to give us some goodies. Sushma is also talking with the Chinese. We are going to play both sides and secure our neighborhood.


could you elaborate how exactly how Obama needs India more than India needs the US? I would be very interested to know.

UlanBatori
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Jun 2014 03:37

Retirement home. Is he going to retire to Paki-filled Chicago after all those drone attacks? Maybe to Damascus, Illiniois? Or to Texas? Go in a US hospital where the docs are waiting with knives after their rates got cut by ObamaCare? Oh, maybe into a VA hospital? Driving a GM car?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 09 Jun 2014 03:57

KrishnaK: ok I will break my own promise this one time and give you another (shit - apologies should have been) shot at having the last word (for now). I think you are making out engagement and disengagement as two distinct mutually exclusive states. If that is the premise you are basing your argument on, then I would say yes it is not possible to disengage. And what "hurt feelings"? Since it is a degree of engagement, it is not like you flip a switch and disengage. So yes it is not possible to disengage but certainly the degree of engagement (contra positively disengagement) can be changed. So what exactly is your point other than India and the US have a lot of shared values? What exactly is gained by india by engaging with stupid party? I would go even so far as to say that H1B is a minuscule part of what could have been. It is also non-optimal for either the US or India to engage in trade that is limited to H1B or it her labor rate arbitrage.

Unenecessary complications of the US union and labor politics would interfere in improving/worsening indo-US relations. Since we are all grown ups (I hope?) here can I assume you are aware of the compulsions on both sides?

Your turn and have your the last word, if you want.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 09 Jun 2014 06:38, edited 2 times in total.

Kakkaji
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 09 Jun 2014 04:22

The US cannot/ is not going to:

1. Make India a superpower,
2. Make India a $10T economy

These are stupid 'carrots' that have been dangled by charlatans in the media.

1 and 2 above can only be achieved for India by Indians. I am sure NaMo knows that.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby TSJones » 09 Jun 2014 04:55

UlanBatori wrote:Retirement home. Is he going to retire to Paki-filled Chicago after all those drone attacks? Maybe to Damascus, Illiniois? Or to Texas? Go in a US hospital where the docs are waiting with knives after their rates got cut by ObamaCare? Oh, maybe into a VA hospital? Driving a GM car?


you forgot to add trading five fleshy headed jihadis for one broken down alledged US Army deserter. :roll: thanks for letting me know why Obama needs India more than India needs the US in inchoate reasoning.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby TSJones » 09 Jun 2014 05:01

Kakkaji wrote:The US cannot/ is not going to:

1. Make India a superpower,
2. Make India a $10T economy

These are stupid 'carrots' that have been dangled by charlatans in the media.

1 and 2 above can only be achieved for India by Indians. I am sure NaMo knows that.


I agree. Did the writer forget to take his meds or whut?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Jun 2014 05:18

trading five fleshy headed jihadis for one broken down alledged US Army deserter.


Very sad case there. Makes me ashamed of the nation that sends these poor young kids who have no other opportunities, with a year of brainwashing, into a hopeless remote desert and leaves them stuck out there in the middle of hostile terrain and a hostile people, with little support. One gets captured (I don't care how), and put in a wooden box and treated worse than an animal, beaten and tortured regularly, devoid of all hope. Eventually he gets traded for a bunch of guys who have also been put in cages and held without charge for over 12 years (longer than most life sentences for murder). And when he returns, the savages tear into the poor guy with their high "standards". I'd like to see the Senators and Congressmutts who attack this poor kid, put in wooden boxes and have sewage poured on them for 4 years. Maybe put their mugs on ASPCA TV ad, maybe.

I bet the Taliban are treating their released heroes far better than the USA is treating one of its own.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Nandu » 09 Jun 2014 06:10

I don't think Bowe Bergdahl was someone who chose the army because he had no other opportunity. Seems to be an intelligent kid who might have been a little naive and chose the army for actual service to the nation. A lot of bad stuff being put out about him now is really political propaganda aimed at damaging Obama, and we should take it with a pinch of salt.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Jun 2014 06:39

I know, I'd like to see those Republicans and T-Partyists sent out to the Combat Outposts in A'Stan. Love to see their look from inside one of those Dostum Express Containers.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 09 Jun 2014 06:49

John McCain spent several years as a POW, so he must be aware of what POWs go through. He is opposing this prisoner swap vehemently. I do not think it is only partisan politics.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby TSJones » 09 Jun 2014 07:09

Our couch potatos have to do better than alledgedly walking off from their posts. We are them, they are us, if they fail then we in the US are done for.

Philip
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2014 07:25

Appalling how the US is treating this hero,who survived 5 years as a Taliban captive.5 days alone would drive anyone to madness.That he survived to tell the tale should make a great tale and he should get a medal,dinner at the White House with the chief,blah,blah.A nationwide tour to schools ,univs too,would make him a great recruitment icon for the US armed forces. Look how the Israelis greet their soldiers who have been returned after years of captivity.The entire nation celebrates their return! That death threats have been made against him and his family by obtuse ignoramuses in the US,is shocking,shameful and those who have made them should be incarcerated in a steel cage just as he was to teach them a lesson!

Philip
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 09 Jun 2014 07:58

What BRF has been saying for years! Look at the emphasis on "Western govts.!"

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... -a-report/

Foreign-aided NGOs are actively stalling development, IB tells PMO in a report
Written by Amitav Ranjan | New Delhi | June 7, 2014

The NGOs become the central players in setting the agenda, drafting documents, writing in the media, highlighting scholars-turned-activists and lobbying diplomats and government.

As a first step to fast-tracking development high on Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s agenda, the Intelligence Bureau (IB) has submitted a classified document identifying several foreign-funded non-governmental organisations (NGOs) that are “negatively impacting economic development”.

“A significant number of Indian NGOs (funded by some donors based in the US, the UK, Germany, The Netherlands and Scandinavian countries) have been noticed to be using people centric issues to create an environment which lends itself to stalling development projects,” says the IB report marked to the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO).

“The negative impact on GDP growth is assessed to be 2-3 per cent per annum,”
says the June 3 report, identifying seven sectors/ projects that got stalled because of NGO-created agitations against nuclear power plants, uranium mines, coal-fired power plants, farm biotechnology, mega industrial projects, hydroelectric plants and extractive industries.

While detailing what it calls “anti-development” activities by the NGOs during 2011-13, the 21-page report highlights their plans for 2014 and the areas that would come under pressure. These include a campaign against palm oil imports from Indonesia and disposal of e-waste of Indian IT firms, organising construction workers in urban areas, protests against identified projects such as Gujarat’s Special Investment Regions, Par Tapi Narmada River Interlinking Project and the Delhi-Mumbai Industrial Corridor.

The report says that while caste discrimination, human rights and big dams were earlier chosen by international organisations to discredit India at global forums, the recent shift in the choice of issues was to encourage “growth-retarding campaigns” focused on extractive industries, genetically-modified organisms and foods, climate change and anti-nuclear issues.

According to the report, the funding for such campaigns came from foreign donors under charitable garb for issues ranging from protection of human rights, violence against women, caste discrimination, religious freedom etc or to provide a “just deal” to the project-affected displaced persons or for protection of livelihood of indigenous people.

The NGOs become the central players in setting the agenda, drafting documents, writing in the media, highlighting scholars-turned-activists and lobbying diplomats and government, it says. “These foreign donors lead local NGOs to provide field reports which are used to build a record against India and serve as tools for the strategic foreign policy interests of the Western government,” adds the report.

“The strategy serves its purpose when the funded Indian NGOs provide reports, which are used to internationalise and publicise the alleged violations in international fora. All the above is used to build a record against a country or an individual in order to keep the entity under pressure and under a state of under-development,” says the IB report.


Four NGOs were put under the scanner in 2012 for allegedly fuelling protests against the Kudankulam nuclear project in Tamil Nadu.
The accounts of several Indian NGOs were put in the watch list with regard to allegations of funds diversion, after a discreet probe by security agencies with the help of Directorate of Revenue Intelligence and Central Economic Intelligence Bureau.


So much for PMANE and their treasonable activities led by arch-quisling and US stooge Udayakumar,who tried to win a Lok Sabha seat joining the Ford Foundation party the AAP! I sincerely hope that the new govt. acts with extreme prejudice against these anti-national saboteurs and incarcerate the guilty with landmark sentences to deter future would-be quislings.

Udaykumar's history.Xcpts:
Udayakumar has been a part of the network of activists of the Nuclear Information and Resource Service (NIRS) based in Tacoma Park, Maryland, in the United States. This is how NIRS describes him on its website: “Dr S P Udayakumar (Kumar to his friends) is a longtime leader in the peaceful resistance to nuclear power in India, as well as a leader in the NIRS/WISE international network.’’

The home ministry had recently ensured that his house and institute were raided, accusing him of getting foreign funds for the Kudankulam struggle, a charge he has denied, saying that no funds were needed for fasting people.

Born in Nagercoil in Tamil Nadu, Udayakumar left for the US after his post graduation from Kerala University in 1981. He pursued higher studies there and ended up working in Minnesota. He also worked in Ethiopia before he packed his bags for India. He bought some land in Kanyakumari and started a school and a research centre, settling down there with his wife and two sons.
When he returned to India in 2001, he met with Y David, who had spearheaded the movement previously, and then started PMANE, in Madurai. Now, 11 years later, PMANE is one the largest anti-nuclear energy movements the world has seen, according to NIRS. The police had been asking him to surrender for a year, and already around 500 cases have been lodged against him, mainly on sedition charges.

Arvind Kejriwal, who has been leading anti-corruption protests in Delhi, and who declared his support for the movement, made a surprise announcement that Udayakumar would not surrender at any cost.


More here:
http://www.alphabetics.info/internation ... nts-india/

Can NGOs be Foreign Agents? India Investigates Protests against its Nuclear Plant

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby chanakyaa » 10 Jun 2014 07:09

CRamS wrote:Gurus, I'd like some insight into what this guy is saying regarding India's capabilities (bolded part) and reality that needs to be taken into account despite Modi wave

http://www.minyanville.com/sectors/glob ... 4/id/55213


Without pretending to have any specialist knowledge about India, it is a good guess that reality is about to set in. Sometime pretty soon, Modi will stop walking on water, and markets will realize that India is India -- a country where one in four adults cannot read and gross domestic product per capita, at $4,000 per year, is less than one-half of China's and about one-third of Brazil's. The flourishing Indian diaspora we rub shoulders with in America unfortunately represents just a sliver of the home country.

India has neither the exportable natural resources of Brazil and Russia nor, for the most part, the globally competitive export industries of China and the East Asian tigers . As a result, its current account deficit exceeded 4% of GDP last year. The outgoing government ran a budget deficit equivalent to 5.7% of GDP, driving inflation that remains stuck at 8% annually, despite interest rate hikes by India's respected central banker, Raghuram Rajan, a former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund.


I'm neither an economist by trade nor a guru. This subject is dear to me, so I'm responding hoping real gurus correct me if disagree.

On the Import side--India's top 3 exports are Oil (28-32%), Gold (10-15%), and Heavy machinery (5-8%). Unlike Russia and Brazil who are self-sufficient and net exporter of energy resources; India is the net importer of most of the commodities that drives the economic cycle, of which oil and gas is a major component. Unless and until we find massive oil and gas field around Arabian/Indian ocean or major breakthrough in usage of solar energy, we will continue to be net importer of Oil&Gas; which we pay using someone else's currency.

On the export side, in reference to above article, I believe that India does not have and has not established clear national/sovereign advantage; similar to for example, well oiled manufacturing industry China has. All those oil, gold, heavy machinery, and other imports must be paid with something, net of exports. The deficit needs to be funded by borrowing. I think what the author of the above article is saying is that in the short run and may be intermediate run, the stark differences between import/export would be tough to address unless, Modiji can wave his magic wand and completely change export/import dynamic.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 10 Jun 2014 07:12

India has driven out local manufacturing since the last two years of PVN's time. We have a long way to cover.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 11 Jun 2014 00:06

Expectations on India-US ties must be tempered not only by historical realities and the present dichotomy between the POTUS and DoS , but also the growing opinion on the weakness and incompetence of the office of the POTUS. Here's a new article on the topic:
Relentless Incompetence: Americans Are Giving Up on Obama

It's important to realize that Obama is demonstrating continued inability to serve the office he holds. He will therefore make mistakes even in his interactions with India. Rather than attribute his actions to malice and be outraged, it's better to understand his lack of competence and use that for our benefit.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Satya_anveshi » 11 Jun 2014 00:11

Obama is MMS of US and sheetheads in US don't clearly know who their Sonia is. Pappu, of course, was Bushs (pop and son), the killers of Iraqis and pashtuns.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby svinayak » 11 Jun 2014 07:33

Philip wrote:X-posted tx to Kittu from the Gen. Discussion td.

Be warned, Prime Minister
Foreign powers are determined to undermine the Narendra Modi government.

By N.V. Subramanian (17 May 2014)
http://www.newsinsight.net/Bewarned,Pri ... age=page-1
New Delhi: No one knows Narendra Modi’s mind except the next prime minister himself. He has solely driven this general election and is the primary architect of the Bharatiya Janata Party’s extraordinary and epochal victory. The stakes were high with Modi as Gujarat’s chief minister. But they would infinitely be higher when he is sworn as prime minister next week. This commentary, a special one, is in the nature of an alert. His political detractors and the enemies of India are determined to get him, because he alone of his generation (the immediate post-Independence generation) has the potential to hurtle the country to greatness. His success depends in some measure on who all he appoints to the top cabinet posts of home, finance, defence and foreign affairs. At least one great power has suborned one of his (least) likely choices for one of the four posts. The covert agencies have a full file on the person, who cannot be named for obvious reasons. Narendra Modi would do himself no harm and the country a great deal of good by seeking quiet intelligence clearance of his probable top cabinet choices, one of who remains highly compromised in the estimation of this writer.

Foreign powers did not expect this decisive result in favour of Narendra Modi. They had prepositioned their favourite candidates in the expectation that the Bharatiya Janata Party and the National Democratic Alliance would fall grievously short of the majority numbers. One candidate identified early for the defence portfolio fell by the wayside. The approach was made to the person when the person held an important position in the shadow government. The second candidate was also won over in this period, with the person in question displaying a marked proclivity towards a great power that had shown unprecedented hostility towards Modi. The idea was simple. In case a majority eluded Modi, these two persons, one or both, would be positioned to take over as prime minister, with the discredited “liberal” establishment incited to take up cudgels on behalf of one or both of them. For all the determination of the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangha not to make anyone other than Modi the prime minister, there was the danger that it would succumb to the unbearable pressure brought on it. It is Narendra Modi’s bold gamble and brilliance that upset the applecart.

With plan A failed, the great power, with other Western countries in tow, embarked on the fallback option, which is to infiltrate its surviving candidate into one of the four top Union cabinet posts. In a moment of indiscretion, the candidate let drop to stooge reporters (the mainstream media is near totally infiltrated) that any cabinet post other than defence, foreign affairs, finance and home would be unacceptable.
It would befit the candidate’s seniority not to be considered for less. There was no substantial mention of the cabinet committee on security. But that is the key. Any of the top four posts gives access to the highest-level cabinet committee, where the most secret and sensitive national security issues are engaged with, including India’s military nuclear posture and plans, foreign relations, the neighbourhood policy, internal security, Kashmir, China, and so on. The inimical great power wants access to the deliberations of this committee, and it has prepared a mole. Narendra Modi cannot be too careful who he invites and permits into this critical cabinet committee.

For some time, there has been great disquiet that the prime minister’s office has been penetrated. No less alarming than Sanjaya Baru’s revelation that files of the prime minister’s office were shared with Sonia Gandhi are reports that it has been under successful surveillance of foreign intelligence agencies. This is over and above human penetration. Quite apart from Manmohan Singh’s shabby pro-Americanism, he ran a very leaky prime minister’s office. But the scale of danger to the upcoming Narendra Modi government is many times higher, in part because he is the lynchpin to India’s rise, and the foreign powers want to sabotage his success. This writer need not advise Modi on how to handle the new threat, where the cabinet committee on security is sought to be subverted, but at the least, he must identify the prospective mole, and isolate the burrower from government, or in a position where no state secrets are accessible, such as agriculture or rural development, without compromising on the productivity and delivery of these strategic ministries. India’s expectations from Narendra Modi reach the sky, and as determined as he is to fulfil them to excess, there is steely resolve too among his and India’s enemies to destroy him.

Be vigilant, Mr Prime Minister,

N.V.Subramanian is Editor Newsnight



This website is clearly a website with agency connection. So the inference is clear that many candidates who were dropped out from the cabinet are the ones being referred in this article.

With plan A failed, the great power, with other Western countries in tow, embarked on the fallback option, which is to infiltrate its surviving candidate into one of the four top Union cabinet posts. In a moment of indiscretion, the candidate let drop to stooge reporters (the mainstream media is near totally infiltrated) that any cabinet post other than defence, foreign affairs, finance and home would be unacceptable.
It would befit the candidate’s seniority not to be considered for less. There was no substantial mention of the cabinet committee on security. But that is the key. Any of the top four posts gives access to the highest-level cabinet committee, where the most secret and sensitive national security issues are engaged with, including India’s military nuclear posture and plans, foreign relations, the neighbourhood policy, internal security, Kashmir, China, and so on. The inimical great power wants access to the deliberations of this committee, and it has prepared a mole. Narendra Modi cannot be too careful who he invites and permits into this critical cabinet committee.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Jun 2014 17:19

You know, the above does not describe "several candidates", it is coded very obviously to cast one person as a US agint. The whole article seems to be written with just that in mind, so I think it is a direct personal attack that stays just short of being actionable in court (one cannot very well go to court and say: :(( I am the US agint that he's describing! :(( )

The question to ask is whether to place credibility in this. If the concern were real, and there were any evidence, don't you think the place to make the complaint would be through direct, confidential channels rather than an Open Letter to the PM Asking Him 2 B Careful??

All in all, the article is a disaster. It is exactly the sort of sneaky, cowardly smear tactics that have destroyed India all through history. If anyone should be banned by Modi from all interactions, it is the author of the article. I for one have put a big red mark against the name of this author in my mental files.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby schinnas » 11 Jun 2014 17:44

UlanBatori wrote:All in all, the article is a disaster. It is exactly the sort of sneaky, cowardly smear tactics that have destroyed India all through history. If anyone should be banned by Modi from all interactions, it is the author of the article. I for one have put a big red mark against the name of this author in my mental files.


+1. The fact that Modi seems to have ignored the "advice" in the article indicates that he cannot be manipulated by such tactics.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Jun 2014 19:58

Err He has not ignored.

The first person did not get a ticket to contest on BJP. The second person is floundering despite all his bhakts singing hosannas.

Think about this. If NVS has this info and is willing to post after May 17th, don't you think Team NaMo with all those retired MHA babus with memories like a trap are not aware of it!


NVS is revealing what is known already.
The only ones non-plussed are the old guard who used to think MMS can do no worng. He did no right either!!!


So take everything as data and process in your own minds.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby JE Menon » 11 Jun 2014 20:15

Svinayak,

Is this the article where supposedly IB said Arun Shourie is an agent or is it something else?

Because that is a very serious and direct allegation, and it should not exist on BRF - or have been made on BRF - if there is no corroborating source online.

Added later:

There is no mention of Arun Shourie or IB in the report on Newsinsight.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Jun 2014 20:17

I cannot disagree about the quality of the advice since I don't have access to Classified info anywhere, but I don't think anything positive was achieved by airing that in the media. Did NaMO or his supporters need to read that in the paper? Did they suggest that someone publish this so that ppl might see why a certain person had not been inducted into the cabinet- and if so is this their mode of operation? Trying to take down someone's political power with an insinuation like this?

Best answer I can derive from what I observe is: Cabinet composition seen. Speculation ripe for CTs. Opportunity seen to smear someone with whom one has not see i-2-i in the past at some point, (mis) using editorial privileges.

I may be quite wrong in my ID of the target, which is the other effect. Totally innocent ppl may now be smeared by suspected association.

From what I heard on the lotus vine, some senior ppl may have been advised (no I don't know that for a fact!) that their service is much more needed as Senior Advisors and Organizers with lots of freedom, than as Mantris with departments to run and weekly/nightly progress reports to be submitted to NaMo with the Sword-e-Damocles ever hanging over them. In the New Culture, Mantris are expected to be energetic 35-year-old execs with the strength to stay awake and attend to micro detail in a competent manner and be held accountable, rather than venerated 95-year-olds who waddle from one Baithak on roller pillows to another but are totally above internal criticism or accountability. I hear that there is wild (private) relief and celebration among the Mantris and Babus in Guj about Liberation, now that NaMo is off in Dilli.

P.S. Example of the problem: My target ID may not be same as JEM's, though that means nothing.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 11 Jun 2014 20:27

For instance, see what has been done on J&K and Occupied J&K and 370. A junior Mantri-of-State committed virtual harakiri by coming out with a bland statement, and all the Other Side started jumping up and down demanding Retraction, Apology, Dismissal etc. But then - too soon for it to have been a surprise - the Seniors weighed in with pretty sharp, well-pointed jhapads that now took the attention away from the Junior Mantri, and gave the Other Side something to REALLY think about and look under their chairs for the heat source. Effective. If that been the other way around (Senior speaking first) it would have been a mess - which is what happened to every initiative that the prior EnnDeeYay tried to put forth.

Now the Other Side is on the run. They see that the 35-saal Junior is merely implementing Policy with full support, legally and politically.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 12 Jun 2014 06:56

Glorious failure...yet again...of US foreign policy. They deposed and hanged Saddam in a kangaroo court trial and reaped the whirlwind.So much for Dubya Bush's fatuous and flatulent statement,"mission accomplished".That phrase will haunt the US for decades to come.

Oliver Duff
Thursday 12 June 2014
i Editor's Letter: Mission Unaccomplished
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 30648.html
Remember Iraq? That’s the one where we announced “Mission Accomplished” in May 2003. Unfortunately, 11 years, 188,000 deaths (minimum) and $2 trillion later, the jihadis don’t agree.

I’m a young sprog of an editor, and in 2003 I wrote my graduate dissertation (rather gloomily) on Iraq’s possible collapse. It was, according to the respected politics professor marking it, one of the worst he had ever read. Fortunately his co-marker disagreed or I would have walked away with a third.

Even after the idiotic Washington decision to sack the entire Iraqi army – leaving a lot of men with guns jobless and angry – only the bleakest analysts predicted an Islamic caliphate led by extremists.

Yet the world now watches horrified as the vast Iraqi security forces melt away in the face of a few thousand fighters.
Yesterday, another Iraqi city fell to the fundamentalist group Isis. The future of the Iraqi state is in doubt, with ramifications across the Middle East. The speed of the collapse is stunning, giving the appearance of wider collusion with the insurgency. Again, the US and Britain are humbled by the gulf between the hubris of 2003 and their ability to shape events.

My colleague Kim Sengupta, i’s defence correspondent, is billed to write for you on this page tomorrow, having reported extensively from Iraq over the past 12 years.


And look at the booty that ISIS has seized!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... ast-states
Iraq army capitulates to Isis militants in four cities
Half a million people on the move after gunmen seize four cities and pillage army bases and banks


Martin Chulov and Fazel Hawramy in Irbil and Spencer Ackerman in New York
The Guardian, Wednesday 11 June 2014

Link to video: Iraq: families flee Mosul as Islamist militants battle forces

Iraq is facing its gravest test since the US-led invasion more than a decade ago, after its army capitulated to Islamist insurgents who have seized four cities and pillaged military bases and banks, in a lightning campaign which seems poised to fuel a cross-border insurgency endangering the entire region.

The extent of the Iraqi army's defeat at the hands of militants from the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (Isis) became clear on Wednesday when officials in Baghdad conceded that insurgents had stripped the main army base in the northern city of Mosul of weapons, released hundreds of prisoners from the city's jails and may have seized up to $480m in banknotes from the city's banks.

Iraqi officials told the Guardian that two divisions of Iraqi soldiers – roughly 30,000 men – simply turned and ran in the face of the assault by an insurgent force of just 800 fighters. Isis extremists roamed freely on Wednesday through the streets of Mosul, openly surprised at the ease with which they took Iraq's second largest city after three days of sporadic fighting
.

Senior government officials in Baghdad were equally shocked, accusing the army of betrayal and claiming the sacking of the city was a strategic disaster that would imperil Iraq's borders.

The developments seriously undermine US claims to have established a unified and competent military after more than a decade of training. The US invasion and occupation cost Washington close to a trillion dollars and the lives of more than 4,500 of its soldiers. It is also thought to have killed at least 100,000 Iraqis.

At a speech to a Washington thinktank, Susan Rice, Obama's national security adviser, said the US was currently working with the Iraqi government to combat the insurgents. :rotfl:

"The United States has been fast to provide necessary support to the people and government of Iraq under our strategic framework agreement, and we're working together to roll back aggression and counter the threat that the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant poses to the people of the region," Rice said on Wednesday, without elaboration, to the Centre for a New American Security.
Link to video: Iraq crisis: US calls for release of Turkish diplomats as UN condemns kidnapping

Over a decade of costly US mentorship of the Iraqi army did not prevent the group Isis from overrunning Iraqi military positions.

A senior State Department official, Brett McGurk, who shuttled to Baghdad for critical meetings with his Iraqi counterparts, vowed US assistance.

"We have suffered and bled together, and we will help in time of crisis," he tweeted.

Rice also said the US would "ramp up" its assistance to the moderate, vetted Syrian opposition, both political and military," Isis's ostensible rivals for control of the Syrian resistance to dictator Bashar Assad. Assad's sponsors, the Iran government, hold significant influence over the Iraqi government that the US also supports.

In a day of extraordinary developments, Isis gunmen also encircled the city of Deir el-Zour across the border in Syria, kidnapped 80 Turkish citizens in two mass abductions, made advances in two other provinces and claimed to have successfully smuggled a huge weapons haul to eastern Syria's Hassaka province.

Isis fighters rode unopposed into Saddam Hussein's birthplace of Tikrit. There, as in Mosul the day before, they quickly set up checkpoints, sacked government buildings and filled trucks with weapons and cash, some of which were quickly dispatched to Syria
.

Militants seized the Turkish consulate in Mosul and kidnapped the head of the diplomatic mission along with 24 staff members. A local police colonel told AFP he had spoken with the kidnappers who said those held "are safe with us" and would be moved to a "safer place". Turkish forces have targeted Isis forces in Syria.Militants also destroyed a police station in Baiji, site of Iraq's largest refinery. Local officials said the insurgents withdrew after local tribal leaders persuaded them not to seize the refinery and power stations. At least half a million residents of northern Iraq are reported to be on the move, with most attempting to flee to the Kurdish far north where border officials were overwhelmed and expecting refugee numbers to increase sharply in coming days.
epa04250426 Iraqi Sunni gunmen drive in a pickup truck on a street in Tikrit, northern Iraq, 11 June 2014. Gunmen drive in a pickup truck on a street in Tikrit, northern Iraq. Photograph: EPA

The UN said it was scrambling to deal with the crisis. Save the Children said: "We are witnessing one of the largest and swiftest mass movements of people in the world in recent memory. The majority of Iraqis fleeing Mosul had to escape in a matter of minutes."

As security unravelled in the country's north and centre, the radical Shia Islamic leader Moqtada al-Sadr threatened to reform the Mahdi army – a key protagonist in the sectarian war that nearly ripped Iraq apart in the wake of the US invasion. Militias had primacy nationwide during the worst of the war years and are once again ascendant as the Iraqi military's authority crumbles.

Foreign minister Hoshyar Zebari urged Kurdish and central government leaders to set aside their differences to deal with the "mortal threat" facing the country. Kurdish authorities were letting nearly all new arrivals enter in an early sign of closer than normal cooperation.

For a second day, the road between Mosul and Kirkuk was choked with cars full of families who described chaos in the city as troops beat an undignified retreat.

Abu Abdulla, a 55-year-old who had just arrived in Irbil, said: "Suddenly the army withdrew and there was no army nor police, just the militants; we don't know where they are from; they are masked."

So many soldiers had fled Mosul that the price of firearms plummeted as troops flooded the market with their service weapons, said Shirzad, a taxi driver at the border of Iraqi Kurdistan, who had been ferrying Iraqi army deserters from the checkpoint towards Kirkuk.

Isis released footage of large numbers of weapons and armoured military vehicles being received by members in eastern Syria, confirming fears that the looted weapons would fuel the insurgency on both sides of an increasingly irrelevant border. Sources in the Syrian city of Hassaka confirmed to the Guardian that large convoys of trucks carrying weapons arrived late on Tuesday and were met by a senior Isis figure, Omar al-Chechani.

Statements released by the group claimed that the assault on Mosul was the beginning of the end of the Sykes Picot agreement - the post-colonial settlement which in 1916 enshrined the nation states of Syria and Lebanon and influenced the drawing of the Jordan and Iraq borders. Isis commanders say they are fighting to destroy the post-Ottoman nation state borders and restore a caliphate that submits to fundamentalist Islamic law.

The group has been steadily building towards such an outcome, rampaging first through northern Syria and then back into Anbar province, the heartland of its earliest incarnation almost 10 years ago. Along the way, it has steadily accrued weapons and gained confidence, storming unopposed into towns and cities that were notionally protected by the best trained and armed military in the Arab world.

However, Mosul is by far its biggest prize so far: a gain that will seriously undermine Nour al-Maliki's efforts to be renominated as prime minister for a third term - and cripple the standing of the military, regarded for the past three years as the most important institution in the land. Any counter-offensive against Isis is expected to be led instead by Kurdish Peshmurga forces, which remain fiercely loyal to Kurdish leaders, but not to Baghdad. A spokesperson for the Peshmurga, Brigadier General Halgord Hekmat, told the Guardian that "the sudden collapse of the Iraqi army has left us with no option but to fill some areas with our forces because we can't have a security vacuum on our border". Maliki accused some senior military figures of "negligence" and "betrayal", attempting to deflect blame for the rout. As commander in chief, Maliki has ultimate responsibility for Iraq's armed forces and has presided over a series of spectacular defeats at the hands of Isis, starting last July when Abu Ghraib prison on Baghdad's western outskirts was overrun by the extremist group in a raid that freed several hundred convicted terrorists.

In December parts of Fallujah and Ramadi - both former al-Qaida strongholds - were retaken by the group, which has ever since deterred Iraqi forces from trying to re-enter the cities and maintained a withering insurgency in the nearby countryside.

"I know the reasons why the army collapsed," Maliki said. "But now is not the time to point the blame to whoever ordered the army to fall back. Even if it's a ploy, the generals who are responsible must be held accountable. A conspiracy has led Isis to occupy Mosul. Whoever is responsible will not get away with that they did."

Most of the weapons seized by Isis were taken from the al-Qayara base in Mosul, the fourth largest in the country, after two divisions of the Iraqi army fled the city en masse on Tuesday, allowing a far smaller extremist force to enter.

The haul included armoured humvees, rockets, tonnes of ammunition and assault weapons. Evidence of the large-scale desertion remained littered across the streets of the central city, with flak jackets, camouflage uniforms and ammunition clips being held up by insurgents as they celebrated their victory.

Hamad al-Mutlaq, a member of the Iraqi parliament's defence committee, said: "I'm convinced that what happened in Mosul is deliberate negligence or there is an agreement between the parties because it's impossible for an army to be unable to stand up to a group made up of hundreds of men."

"Isis can't have had more than a few thousand men versus two divisions made up of 30,000 Iraqi soldiers. This signifies that the army has been built on weak foundations. The Iraqi government is the one to blame and should be held responsible for this failure; it has been unable to build a healthy state and unable to defend it."

Atheel al-Nujaifi, governor of Ninevah province, who fled Mosul along with the city's chief of police, said on Wednesday Iraqi authorities were determined to recapture the northern city.

"Mosul is capable of getting back on its feet and getting rid of all the outsiders …and we have a plan to restore security," he said. "We have taken practical steps in order to restore order … by mobilising people into public committees that would retake the city."

Al-Mutlaq believes the city has been lost to Isis. "I don't think the government is able to retake Mosul. After eight years, it shows that all its plans have been faulty," he said.

Not all Mosul residents condemned the Isis rout. Ali Aziz, 35, a humanitarian worker, said: "We got statements by them confirming that they won't cause harm to anyone and all the minorities will be protected by them. They are really welcomed and we are so happy to have them rather than having Maliki's bloody, brutal forces.

"I feel we have been liberated of an awful nightmare that was suffocating us for 11 years. The army and the police never stopped arresting, detaining and killing people, let alone the bribes they were taken from the detainees' families.

"Me and my neighbours are waiting for the news that the other six Sunni protesting provinces falling in the hand of the Isis fighters to declare our Sunni region like the three provinces in Kurdistan."

• Additional reporting: Mona Mahmood, Naziha Baasiri, Saalim Rizk and Yousif al-Timimi

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Jun 2014 07:07

The situation calls for the infusion of well-trained Islamic troops from a US MUNNA. The Pakistan Northern Flight Infantry is waiting for the call. 8)

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby pradeepe » 12 Jun 2014 11:33

Philip wrote:Glorious failure...yet again...of US foreign policy. They deposed and hanged Saddam in a kangaroo court trial and reaped the whirlwind.So much for Dubya Bush's fatuous and flatulent statement,"mission accomplished".That phrase will haunt the US for decades to come.


Political theatrics aside. This is mind boggling. I hope the yahoos who strut around even on this forum with their bad ass hooyah swagger realize the enormity of it. Millions dead, even more left destitute and now more lining up.

One could just die of shame and guilt if they even felt remotely connected...but then...

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Jun 2014 16:09

One could just die of shame and guilt if they even felt remotely connected...but then...


Think of all the Reconstruction contracts. Checking into stock prices of Halliburton. 8)

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby habal » 12 Jun 2014 16:18

this thread needs to be renamed.

'India-US, no strategic relation, just bad news - mostly one-way'.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Christopher Sidor » 12 Jun 2014 20:35

I wonder what weapons were seized by ISIS from the Iraqi army? And will these weapons turn the tide in Syria? Are there any weapons seized by ISIS which can put to an end the air supremacy enjoyed by the Syrian Armed Forces? Are there any heavy weapons which can turn the tide against the Syrian and it's allied forces?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Jun 2014 21:09

Philip, Its almost like a modern day Battle of Badr!!!!

800 make 30,000 flee. A new legend will be born.

Also speaks volumes of the fleecing by US contractors who imparted 'training' in Northern Flight Infantry tactics.
Wonder what ANA will do when faced with Taliban after US leaves Afghanistan.

ANA was also trained by US experts.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 12 Jun 2014 21:12

It all gets worse in Iraq. The US is mulling strikes on ISIS (thereby helping Assad), the Kurds 'kapture' Kirkuk which will bring in the Turks and Hezbollah is not far behind which brings in the Iranians behind the Iraqis.

If this holds, the US will now be on the side of the Iranians and against the Qatari-supported ISIS. Man! I thought the Balkans were complicated.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 12 Jun 2014 22:53

This collapse of the Iraqi army is not good news for India. This same scenario will be repeated in afghanistan when the US troops leave.

The Pakis must be licking their chops.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Jun 2014 22:58

Qatari-supported ISIS.


Really? How many minutes does it take to bring down Qatar, or at least reduce its economy to zero? Those guys seriously would do a thing like this? I mean, you can't hide it now: the ISIS is out in the open, and there have to be answers on where they got their weapons and funding. I can't believe the Sultan of Qatar would indulge in something this dangerous, without backing from much more powerful entities.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 13 Jun 2014 00:26

all roads lead to you know who
:twisted:

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Gus » 13 Jun 2014 01:00

Didn't we offer to train afghans and US shot it down citing paki concerns?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Atri » 13 Jun 2014 01:58



good talk

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Rudradev » 13 Jun 2014 02:07

So when an insurgent group becomes disciplined, organized and numerous enough to start acting like a regular army... seizing towns, territory and resources... how does a state deal with it?

As everybody knows, air power is a crucial ingredient.

So what air power does the Iraqi govt bring to the game?

Two PZL W-3 Sokol helicopters and 24 khatara refurbished Mi17s. Easy pickings for the ISIS MANPADs.

Three Beech 350 Super King light transport aircraft. LOL.

Some 19 old Fishbeds and Floggers that the Serbians were refurbishing, which since 2009 were supposed to be available "any day now".

A few C-130s. (But where are they supposed to land, and what is going to be landed in them?)

And that's it.

There is no question that the US for all its nation-building promises has contrived to keep the Iraqi Air Force absolutely toothless. Even the land forces are basically a "security force"... more like police, who can at best try to prevent IED-mubarak terrorist cells from being effective in large cities and on arterial roads. Against a major assault by the ISIS legions they folded up and ran like hell.

What is going to be left behind in Afghanistan, under the Kabul regime, looks even more pathetic, and will be even less able to withstand an ISIS-type force fielded by the Taliban and Pakistan.

This begs the question: was it done on purpose? I can't believe that, had the US been at all sincere about creating regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan with at least a reasonable chance of defending their countries, this is the best they could turn out in 10+ years. So was it incompetence, or were these regimes designed to fail against the kind of insurgent forces the US knew perfectly well would come gunning for them?


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