India-US Strategic News and Discussion

vic · Post by **vic** » 01 Jan 2014 09:57

If US Embassy was running commercial establishment in its compound then it is very serious violations of customs duty, FEMA, IT, VAT and CENVAT which entails criminal prosecution and financial penalties alongwith seizure of goods and sealing of premises under Municipal laws.

Also how the school is charging such high fees and what permissions have been taken under Delhi local act governing schools, FEMA and IT Act?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 01 Jan 2014 10:01

The charges appear to make it clear there was no verifiable allegation of abuse of the maid, despite statements to the contrary from various quarters. It also suggests this is headed for the 'there's a case but she has immunity and will be declared PNG' play by the US, something they've already telegraphed. However, this isn't really acceptable to us, since it means the charge sticks on DK.

Either there's something about the Richard's that's causing this, and it's worth digging deeper into their antecedents, or GOTUS is just depending on our history of not demonstrating political will to stand our ground, to get way with their own overzealousness.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Jan 2014 10:05

Alleged Visa Fraud Not Necessarily Grave Crime, Says Attorney

The United States can still withdraw the alleged visa fraud case against Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade, although it could face some difficulties before the judiciary, according to a top American lawyer.

<snip>

Jones conceded that the interpretation of the crime under the Vienna Convention is a gray area and it is for the governments concerned to define it.

<snip>

Jones observed that the very fact this case was investigated by the State Department and not the FBI or ICE—the two major investigative wings of the United States government—is reflective of the fact that there were serious considerations given before taking a decision to arrest Khobragade.

When asked about the Indian demand that the United States should withdraw the case against Khobragade, which has been ruled out by the State Department, Jones said this is feasible, though might be difficult at this stage of the court case.

"It (apology) is certainly feasible. It is more difficult once a complaint is filed and prosecution has been initiated. It is more difficult for the Justice Department to back off after that and even for the State Department. But it is possible," Jones said.

"This case can go any number of ways. It can go through the court system all the way through a trial. I do not think that that will happen. I think that pursuing this case to the trial is going to be the last thing that the U.S. and the Indian government would really want to happen that would escalate the tensions," he said.

"Could it be resolved with some kind of diplomatic or other type of resolution in the court system wherein there is an acknowledgement that either a crime or some wrong was done, that’s going to be a decision that she would have to make in consultation with her lawyer," Jones said.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 01 Jan 2014 10:06

That is what the prosecutorial DA says, but, has the court accepted the charges and told the accused that these are the charges for which she would stand trial ? Only when that happens could one say that the charges have been 'framed'.

Why does court get to decide on accepting the charges? This is what will happen on initial hearing.

(Day in court)
Judge: How does defendant plead, in response to the charges brought by the Dept. of State?
DK: Not guilty
Judge: Ok. Hearing is scheduled for XYZ date.

(This will continue into a full blown hearing in which both sides will argue their case.)

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Jan 2014 10:09

Indian staff at US missions say they’re underpaid

Some of the Indians employed with the US embassy and its four consulates have complained to the government that they were underpaid, overworked and given lower wages than their American counterparts, HT has learnt.

Upset over the ill-treatment of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade who was arrested and later released on bail on charges of visa fraud and underpaying her domestic help, New Delhi had asked for the details of Indian staffers at US missions.

Though the US authorities are yet to submit all the information, complaints have begun to trickle in at the ministry of external affairs.

In one such complaint, a clerk drawing 1.54 lakh annually has said he was grossly underpaid. A visa officer said a US national holding the same position was being paid Rs. 1.10 lakh a month while his salary was Rs. 17,000 a month.

Seems like race plays a big role in salary and benefits that are accorded to employees for the same job.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 01 Jan 2014 10:17

Why not ban employment of local as far as US embassy is concerned and force them to bring their own aayas, Maalis, etc.
Or perhaps amend local laws to stipulate that any local employee hired or contracted by the US embassy and consulate cannot be payed less than $4000 per month.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Jan 2014 10:44

chanakyaa wrote: Why does court get to decide on accepting the charges? This is what will happen on initial hearing.

In Indian courts, the magistrate examines the accusation and associated documents, convinces himself/herself that enough reason exists that an offence has been committed and that the magistrate is competent to proceed with the trial in such a case and give a punishment, reads the charges and explains them to the accused, and then asks the accused whether he/she pleads guilty. That is when the charges are said to have been 'framed'. Not until then. In fact, the magistrate can even order release of some or all of the accused for lack of sufficient prima facie evidence at that stage itself.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Jan 2014 10:49

pankajs wrote:Indian staff at US missions say they’re underpaid

Already, another intern has thrown some allegations. All that India needs is just one case with fairly credible evidence to indict an American consul and that should not be too difficult. The situation has already deteriorated because of the arrogant US action and Indian reaction cannot deteriorate it more and in any case India has a right to investigate more serious tax evasion issues which are after all against the State unlike the DK case which is between two individuals.

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 01 Jan 2014 11:11

SSridhar wrote: All that India needs is just one case with fairly credible evidence to indict an American consul and that should not be too difficult. .......Indian reaction cannot deteriorate it more and in any case India has a right to investigate more serious tax evasion issues which are after all against the State unlike the DK case which is between two individuals.

Sir why doesn't GOI do what the Russians have done..instead of waiting on the mercy of what will happen on Jan 13th and then react ??? Its like begging us to forgive and forget when we made NO mistake...

...
the story of Sergei Lavrov, long-serving Russian permanent representative to the UN in New York and now Russian foreign minister. His official car was towed away by the New York traffic police. It required one telephone call to Moscow. After six American cars went missing, Lavrov got his car back with a note of apology

I believe we are in much better position to negotiate now by having atleast couple of their diplomats behind bars and negotiate to drop all the charges against DK than reacting after Jan 13th...GoI will not be worried abt the personal life of DK but it feels unfair to impact her personal life for no fault of her...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jan 2014 11:15

SS most of US criminal procedure code is based on IPC.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 01 Jan 2014 11:16

"]Indian staff at US missions say they’re underpaid" - For strict rule book methodical cases by S.D., there seems to be total silence on this. There seem to be no propaganda around it! Suddenly new York propaganda machine seems to find no jurisdiction within USA consulate when in fact it is USA property, isn't it? It is all selective here too, at the same time not getting over yindoo this and yindoo that. No passing wide open ended value judgements about USA society too even in USA media! Fact is, all the maid had to do was demand something inappropriate (cash, passport ) which the lady diplomat couldn't issue in normal diplomatic procedure; and then claim a crime. Even then her family has been off to USA on face of court cases, but still it is EJ lobby claiming murder when it is the Indian lady diplomat who has to bear new York style barbaric mistreatment. The new York police and justice dept seem to be totally ignorant of the fact that it was maid who committed fraud against employer she was led - or misled - by EJ lobby. But then new York police and SD and justice department have to work on it even when the fraud by the maid is open. Seems police has chosen to not investigate this and therefore already taken sides in self-proclaimed neutral and methodical execution of the case. The maid who put forth illegitimate demands is never disturbed and is protected by EJ lobby(is this why she is not probed by neutral police department and SD) so where is scope for fair trial anyway.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Jan 2014 11:21

ramana wrote:http://www.newindianexpress.com/opinion ... 966731.ece

Bring Washington to its senses: Bharat Karnad

BK is proposing reciprocal measures. In chaos theory, when confronted by a random outlier like this outrage the response has to be massive and in a very different area. Managers don't like black swans for it requires massive response.

One angle not considered is if this outrage is a way of US assuring TSP that India won't get the high table as long as US has it within its powers. Recall 2014 draw down is near.

In Prisoner's Dilemma, a tit-for-tat is an ESS (Evolutionary Stable Strategy) whereby both parties can achieve stability. If one party plays dove all the time, the other party WILL play hawk all the time, since they can get away with the benefits. Nothing radical here, beyond common sense. But in New Delhi's foreign policy, common sense seems to be in short supply

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Jan 2014 11:25

Mahesh_R wrote:Sir why doesn't GOI do what the Russians have done..instead of waiting on the mercy of what will happen on Jan 13th and then react ??? Its like begging us to forgive and forget when we made NO mistake...

In fcat, I would like the Mumbai or Chennai or Hyderabad or Kolkatta police (for the sake of reciprocity) to arrest one of the consuls there for an offence. It is for this reason that the US embassy is delaying giving details under the guise of X'mas & New Year. We should net one American consul asap.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Jan 2014 11:30

http://www.firstpost.com/world/why-us-w ... =hp-footer

Good piece by Rajeev Sharma on Firstpost. He seems to be cut from a nationalist cloth unlike the Aakar Patels. He wrote a good piece on the Tejas.

Interesting that he uses the acronym MATA (More American Than Americans) - which is a spin-off from MUTU that I had used in a tweet. It was around the time that he was following me on Teetar! Interesting how memes spread.

An interesting point (I dont know if this was raised in this thread before) - the fact that DK already had full diplomatic immunity when she was arrested & cavity searched

These twin arguments derive strength from the chance discovery, and a belated discovery, that Devyani was indeed “accredited” to the Permanent Mission of India (PMI) in New York as early as 26 August 2013 and thus entitled to full diplomatic immunity, more than hundred days before she was arrested on 12 December and incarcerated.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Jan 2014 11:40

Kerry is going to be in middle-east to propose settlement framework to Israel and Palestine. Given the extent of influence Israel commands in almost every US branch/agency, it is extremely unlikely that his proposal will include anything that even remotely offends Israel. Further, he is going there being on defensive having antagonized a "friendly" country such as India. However, just in case, he goes overboard and does something stupid in Israel's view, it will be tough for Obama to deal with Kerry.

The new secretary will have massive work clearing all the sheet, including the one on Indian front, left over by Kerry.

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 01 Jan 2014 11:42

SSridhar wrote:
Mahesh_R wrote:Sir why doesn't GOI do what the Russians have done..instead of waiting on the mercy of what will happen on Jan 13th and then react ??? Its like begging us to forgive and forget when we made NO mistake...
In fcat, I would like the Mumbai or Chennai or Hyderabad or Kolkatta police (for the sake of reciprocity) to arrest one of the consuls there for an offence. It is for this reason that the US embassy is delaying giving details under the guise of X'mas & New Year. We should net one American consul asap.

Is our nation lead by people who can't even think straight ???
what abt the so called advisors....i thought they can think straight with good educational background and experience...
yes.. we have exceptions in few cases where the so called advisors had nation given a back seat when it comes to personal gains...

I am sorry but I am getting a feeling that NO matter which party comes to power in 2014...the situation may not improve much ...
One party might be slightly better over other but end of the day they will never deliver the way BRF members imagine them to do...

I am looking forward for the day I would be proved wrong...

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 01 Jan 2014 11:49

DK already had full diplomatic immunity

So why all this tamasha. If the maid has ambitions, does the case against lady diplomat have to be a stepping stone with propaganda around it. It is clear that Indian side was going by the book so why this circus of barbaric mistreatment of Indian lady diplomat who has her family in USA. One has to be in shock and awe of this mentality when police and SD seem to ignore illegitimate demands to claim something and some EJ lobby prodding at each step clearly.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 01 Jan 2014 11:53

SSridhar wrote: In fcat, I would like the Mumbai or Chennai or Hyderabad or Kolkatta police (for the sake of reciprocity) to arrest one of the consuls there for an offence. It is for this reason that the US embassy is delaying giving details under the guise of X'mas & New Year. We should net one American consul asap.

I think that the 'offence' already exits, i.e., I personally believe that no tax has been paid for salaries received for US staff working at certain schools. GOI by its request is just asking for confirmation so that the US can provide a length of rope for the hanging. It is for this reason that there is a delay in providing what is in essences very basic standard information by the US. An arrest may be unnecessary at this time but exit restrictions for those involved should be imposed immediately as it is a tax related matter and as such standard GOI practice.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 01 Jan 2014 11:55

>> exit restrictions for those involved should be imposed immediately

Yes, I am worried that all the guilty people might leave the country before we arrest them.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 01 Jan 2014 12:05

Slowly slowly catch a monkey. Very easy and standard practice. We as GOI believe that tax is due on these salaries and accordingly the following individuals are now on an exit control list. Publish their names and inform all airports and ports. Such an action does not shout persecution but prosecution within the ambit of Indian law just like in New York within the ambit of US law. We must reciprocate dire need for imposition of both letter and word of law.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 01 Jan 2014 12:54

vnmshyam wrote: Until and unless the Indian diaspora is emotionally invested in India /India culture / India's growth ( not their investments in India ), it will be fairly impossible to have something similar to the Jewish dispora.

great vision. the jewish diaspora has the funda of "return" to israel. further, hostile arabia draws them even closer.

India is far too heterogeneous for that, and we have millions of mir jaffers in our midst.

The ONLY solution to this, is increased ABCD investment and economic links to India. Economic ties will bring emotional ties, just as economic ties to the US, makes them gradually lose their Indian roots.

ArunK · Post by **ArunK** » 01 Jan 2014 12:56

My first post on the Devyani Khobragade affair.

1. I personally believe that given all the discrepensies, it is better to fight the case and win rather than take the diplomatic immunity way out.
2. This will allow Devyani's record to be expunged and allow her to freely travel and reside in the US.
3. Preet Bharara was doing the job he was hired for. You should not make any stupid comments about "getting" him.
4. Instead, you should take him, the US Marshall service and the USA to court *after* winning the court case and sue them for wrongful arrest, sexual assualt, racial discrimination and anything else you can think of and sue for $25 million.

That is how you damage Preet Barara's reputation. If that happens he will become the laughing stock.

In the meanwhile, put the Americans here in India under an electron microscope and pursue court cases against them very vigorously. I want to see 15 -16 cases filed. *They* should come hat in hand begging for mercy.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Jan 2014 13:24

Indian Diplomat's UN Application Review Still On: US - Economic Times

It would be interesting to see if the US disposes off what the UN wills. Or, they may delay it under one pretext or another until the case is heard and a judgement passesd

The US is still reviewing the application for the transfer of senior Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade to UN and issue the necessary documents to her for full diplomatic immunity, a top American official said here.

"It is under review. We cannot predict when that review will be complete," said a State Department spokesperson in response to a question on the status of the UN request to grant full diplomatic status to 39-year-old Khobragade.

The State Department had received her application from the United Nations in New York on December 20. Normally, the State Department takes a decision on this very quickly, but this time the US is taking an unusually long time.

"We cannot compare this to previous requests as each request is evaluated on its own merits," the spokesperson said yesterday.

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 01 Jan 2014 13:51

ArunK wrote: *They* should come hat in hand begging for mercy.

This should be the strategy.... unfortunately this is never going to happen ....

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Jan 2014 14:13

This is an espionage affair,not a "maid in Manhattan" tearjerker.George in the NIExp. has exposed the details well.The US with only expressions of "regret" not an "apology",merely amounts to the yanqui phrase,"hard luck buster,"sh*t happens". The method by which the Russians got relief as well as the Brazilian response is the kind of medicine that needs to be doled out to the US.But what have we done instead? Ordered more C-130Js! At least the GOI could've said that the decision would take place only after the diplo spat was resolved and the Indian diplomat recd. an apology.Boeing would've squeezed Kerry's "family jewels" exquisitely!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Jan 2014 14:32

Philip wrote:This is an espionage affair,not a "maid in Manhattan" tearjerker.George in the NIExp. has put it well.The US with only expressions of "regret" not an "apology",merely amounts to the yanqui phrase,"hard luck buster,"sh*t happens". The method by which the Russians got relief as well as the Brazilian response is the kind of medicine that needs to be doled out to the US.But what have we doem instead? Ordered more C-130Js! At least the GOI could've said that the decision would take place only after the diplo spat was resolved and the Indian diplomat recd. an apology.Boeing would've squeezed Kerry's "family jewels" exquisitely!

People saying goodbye to their masters before going alvida.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 01 Jan 2014 14:48

So it appears that DK had full diplomatic immunity and despite that the US went ahead and arrested her and subjected her to custodial rape. And they now want to go ahead and press charges. So what is the eunuch MEA and their bosses in the GoI doing about this? I still see nothing apart from "dossier diplomacy". How come there are no US officials found breaking Indian laws here? How come no arrests? At the very least those US officials who spirited away the family of the maid should be liable under Indian laws.

I see everyone in India in full GUBO mode, especially GoI and all its arms including MEA, the opposition BJP (am very disappointed with Modi - he has displayed no leadership here at all) and the Indian MSM. Only very few exceptions.

srin · Post by **srin** » 01 Jan 2014 17:05

If you remember, this was raised in Parliament and after that everyone became quiet. My analysis is the reporting of DK's name in the Adarsh scam.

The Indian politics doesn't appreciate the nuances too much. The politicians are probably worried that supporting the cause of the Indian representative in a foreign country would mean becoming open to allegations of supporting a scam-taintee.

The only ones who have been pushing this are the IFS and ex-IFS people. Because they realize that if it is DK today, it can be anybody else tomorrow.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 01 Jan 2014 19:23

we should also cancel the following deals,

Chinook - can't fly high enough, and its vulnerability was seen in Afg.

M777 - can be addressed by new type mini UAVs

Javelin - no TOT being offered

N. reactors - tariff is not sustainable

anymore?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 01 Jan 2014 19:51

What is this additional evidence against DK being quoted in the media without further elaboration ? Has it been reported anywhere ?

There is an outside chance that DK is already a GC holder (she has been married to her US citizen husband for more than 5 years) and on track already to be a US citizen in the eyes of the US. Is that complicating the case for her and explains why she was targeted in this manner.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Jan 2014 19:55

huh...

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 01 Jan 2014 20:29

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/US-must-have-known-Devyani-Khobragade-had-full-immunity-Govt/articleshow/28202172.cms

The government said on Tuesday that it may not have been possible for the US authorities to not know Khobragade's status as adviser to India's permanent mission to the UN when she was arrested on December 12.

As an adviser with UN accreditation till December 31, Khobragade was entitled to full immunity when arrested.

"This was not unknown to the host government in terms of information flow ... let's not blame the victim for the lack of information on the part of those who should have known," said foreign ministry spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin.Not bothering to check her status with India, and going purely by her entitlements as a deputy consul-general, the US authorities not just arrested but also subjected her to a strip-search.

"This was not unknown to the host government in terms of information flow...let's not blame the victim for the lack of information on the part of those who should have known and (who were) preparing about this (arrest) for a long time," said foreign ministry spokesperson Syed Akbaruddin, adding there are mechanisms in the UN to periodically inform the host country about those accredited to various categories in the UN General Assembly.

"She was a diplomat, is a diplomat and will remain a diplomat," he added. He said Khobragade was never given a chance to explain if she had any additional entitlement which could have prevented her arrest.

Indian govt is unequivocal in its message.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Jan 2014 20:42

svenkat wrote:Indian govt is unequivocal in its message.

Which only means that the back-channel negotiations on a resolution have met with a stiff American resistance.

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 01 Jan 2014 21:02

merlin wrote:?..
I see everyone in India in full GUBO mode, especially GoI and all its arms including MEA, the opposition BJP (am very disappointed with Modi - he has displayed no leadership here at all) and the Indian MSM. Only very few exceptions.

BJPs muted response is very concerning. Such golden opportunity scandals just in time before elections don't come too often. BJP can smartly leverage DK case against Kangress, without getting too much into details Some on the forum believe why point finger at a ruling party when DK case is pending. Are you freaking kidding me? For someone like BJP, who is waiting for 10 years, election victory is not certain. In fact, Delhi like outcome in the general election is very likely. I mean BJP could win a lot of seats but short of forming a majority. In such case, why not finish Kangress when it's popularity is at its worst levels. Leveraging DK case will not change the outcome, but they can sow the people how Kangress let down its own officer, humiliated the country at the international level. In fact it is golden opportunity to finish Gandhies once and for ever...

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 01 Jan 2014 21:17

BRfites,
Those who are getting impatient,this is not a T20 match.The US can still drop charges and move on.It makes no sense to up the ante against a very powerful nation with whom we have a multi-faceted relationship .The ball is in US court.India is waiting for hopefully a mature response from US.

I am sure Narendrabhai and his team are watching the issue intently.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 01 Jan 2014 21:22

^^^ That is the difference between US thinking and Indian thinking. When it comes to matters like even the DK case, if you probe deep you will find both the democrats and republicans say the same thing in foreign policy matters. Remember during the Benghazi incident, even the republicans put up a single face even if within there was consternation and wanted to go after the Obama govt. We should not make this a political spectacle for electoral gains. There are many other internal issues which can be played for that, IMO.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 01 Jan 2014 22:07

svenkat wrote:It makes no sense to up the ante against a very powerful nation with whom we have a multi-faceted relationship .

On the contrary, it makes complete sense to play this out even more aggressively to drive home the point that they cannot hope to play the same game they play with pukistan.

Even our own institutions need to taste some success to re-calibrate their attitude as they shed MMSites and post 911 shakina.

Relations with US can be made up pretty fast as they are transactional in nature. There is hardly any sense of morality, values, and partnership in true sense. US is for sale at all times.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 01 Jan 2014 22:28

vasu raya wrote:we should also cancel the following deals,

Chinook - can't fly high enough, and its vulnerability was seen in Afg.

M777 - can be addressed by new type mini UAVs

Javelin - no TOT being offered

N. reactors - tariff is not sustainable

anymore?

I understand the anger and frustration. I feel it too. However, we should not point the gun at our own heads to make a point.

For example, while we are at it, why not cancel the P8I, the Ge 404/414, C-130J and C17 deals too?

Who is it going to impact? the IAF and Navy not the DoS. Not only is PRC going to chuckle but the ISI will crack a smile—now they don't have to use PILs to forestall India's military capability. Yes, and we can get substitutes from the usual suspects: at a much higher markup now that unkil is not in the game.

A mature and more effective way is to silo the two aspects: the DoS/DoJ behavior and the strategic relationship.

Simply enforcing reciprocity on US diplos in India will inflict the most pain. This allows us to seen not as stupidly vindictive but as 'going by the book' which is of course, how DoS has defended its actions.

JMT

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 01 Jan 2014 22:29

^^^ Agree, PRC is a perfect example where they abuse the US in Intl relations, whereas the gravy train keeps flowing still where business interest or investment is concerned.

US is not going to close the door on defense deals with India, if we were to even go to the extent of arresting a few of their diplomats on trumped up charges. That is all business as they know that India can go elsewhere too. In the short run maybe the LCA could get impacted, similar to what happened post '98.

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 01 Jan 2014 22:34

If BJP is not making much noise about this matter, it might as well be the case that they are dancing in step with the GOI (it would not be a surprise if major political parties have been taken into confidence). A necessary approach to a sensitive matter.