India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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Shreeman
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Shreeman »

Motivation for the story of my fifth cousin (its a third cousin twice removed, but UB counts totals, so must we) to be presented continue to be provided by folks like sanjaykumar. And images are indeed instructive. Here is the aforementioned image:

Image

It is argued that the bad things are:

1. Confiscation of passport -- there is no proof this was actually done. It has been suggested that the personal passport was switched for the official passport only. Still, we leave it up here.
2. Extra hours of work -- a number of 100 hours per week is noted.
3. Underpayment -- it is noted that the contract was honored.

These are actually more than the attorney could come up with. Still, the consequences for this are (before any trial, remember):
1. indictment and arrest,
2. custodial treatment (successful people say this was deserved),
3. expulsion from the country.

Now this is prior to *any* judicial process. Mere suspicion is sufficient to merit this treatment (and any other opinion is a "cultural difference"). One wonders what kind of weight an actual trial and judgement might bring.

The story of the fifth cousin is still two weeks away. Let us in the meanwhile agree that the above is "uncontested". Then we will report on each of the three allegations above. Until then, its back to the cave. See you soon.
Philip
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Reconciliation of U.S., German intelligence fails
The United States and Germany have failed to reach an agreement on rebuilding trust between their intelligence communities, German officials said Friday.
By Ed Adamczyk | May 2, 2014

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/ ... z30hU1HQnV

Crocodile tears from "Pres." Torch-Enough",after more than 50 pro-Russian Ukranians were "torched" by his fascist neo-Nazi forces.

Nearly 50 killed in Ukraine as President Turchynov declares day of mourning
Rebels insight rioting, bloodshed, in Odessa.
By Matt Bradwell | May 3, 2014

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/ ... z30hVZnJ00

Odessa slaughter: How vicious mob burnt anti-govt activists alive (GRAPHIC IMAGES)
Published time: May 03, 2014

Moscow: Kiev and western sponsors directly responsible for bloodshed in E.Ukraine
Published time: May 03, 2014
http://rt.com/news/156596-moscow-kiev-b ... sponsible/
Kiev’s government and its western allies bear full responsibility for the recent bloodshed in Ukraine, Russia’s presidential spokesman has said, adding it is now impossible to convince people in the region to disarm because their lives are under threat.

Spokesperson for Russian President Vladimir Putin, Dmitry Peskov, released an official statement following the tragic events in Odessa. 39 anti-government activists have died in a fire at the Trade Unions House there, after the building was set ablaze by pro-Kiev radicals. Some anti-Kiev protesters burned to death, while others suffocated or jumped out of windows, the Ukrainian Interior Ministry said.

Peskov expressed deep condolences for the families of those who died in the tragedy on behalf of President Vladimir Putin and said the Kiev government and the West had blood on their hands.

“The authorities in Kiev not only bear direct responsibility, but are complicit in these criminal activities. Their arms are up to the elbows in blood,” Peskov said.

He said the tragedy in Odessa was the product of “the connivance of those who consider themselves the authority in Kiev.”

“They allowed extremists and radicals to burn unarmed people alive. I stress that these people were unarmed.”

Peskov condemned the position adopted by Washington and a number of European countries as motivated by cynicism.

“It is the highest manifestation of cynicism. The people who justify this punitive operation are the same ones that did not allow the legitimate President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovich, to bring order to the country,” said Peskov, referring to the special operation being carried out in the East of Ukraine at the order of the Kiev government.

The latest escalation in the fighting in eastern Ukraine has made it impossible for any nation to convince people to disarm in the region because their lives are at risk, said Peskov.

“In spite of consistent attempts to encourage dialogue, Russia has hit against provocation not only from Kiev, but also its Western sponsors," he said, stressing that Russia could not find a solution to the current conflict on its own.

Addressing the Ukrainian elections that are set to take place later this month, Peskov said the prospect of such a vote was “absurd” while violence continues to rage in the country.

The president’s spokesperson announced on Friday that Kiev had effectively destroyed the last vestige of hope for implementing the Geneva agreement on de-escalating the Ukrainian crisis by unleashing a ‘punitive operation’ in eastern Ukraine. Russia views the operation as criminal and has urged the Ukrainian government not to use force against unarmed civilians.

However, the EU and the US have both supported the Kiev government’s operation. President Barack Obama called it “a move to restore order,” while EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton said "the state's monopoly on the legitimate use of violence needs to be respected."

“Our colleagues in the West are basically trying to justify the large number of murders we are seeing,” said Peskov, calling Ashton’s statement “monstrous.”

When asked how Russia would react to the escalating conflict in Ukraine, Peskov said he was unable to answer that question at present.

“This is unknown territory for us,” said the presidential spokesperson, adding that the Russian government has received thousands of calls from southeastern Ukraine, demanding Moscow’s help.

“Desperate people call, they ask for help. The vast majority want Russia’s help,” said Peskov. “All of these calls are reported to President Vladimir Putin.”
shiv
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

sanjaykumar wrote:It helps to have one's facts verified. The hundreds of thousands, perhaps now approaching one million Indians, working on the farms of California or driving taxis in NYC manning the desk in little motels in Georgia are not PhDs. The educationally restrictive immigration policies and indian immigration is out of the 1970s. Again something one reads, divorced from the reality of contemporary indian immigrant experience.
It helps to stop bullshitting

The US gives visas mainly to educated Indians. It may be some caste related delusion you retain from India that makes you imagine that Indians doing the jobs you name are uneducated and the US has somehow given visas to uneducated Indians to come and join the workforce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ame ... in_the_U.S.
Indian Americans, along with other Asian Americans, have attained the highest educational levels of all ethnic groups in the U.S. 71% of all Indians have a bachelor's or high degree (compared to 28% nationally and 44% average for all Asian American groups). Almost 40% of all Indians in the United States have a master’s, doctorate or other professional degree, which is five times the national average.[31][32] Thomas Friedman, in his recent book, The World is Flat, explains this trend in terms of brain drain, whereby the best and brightest elements in India emigrate to the U.S. in order to seek better financial opportunities
1970s? LOL! Balderdash!
According to the 2010 U.S. Census, Indian Americans had the highest household income of all ethnic groups in the United States.

According to the American Association of Physicians of Indian Origin, there are close to 35,000 Indian American doctors.[35]

Among Indian Americans, 72.3% participate in the U.S. work force, of which 57.7% are employed in managerial and professional specialties.[36] As of 2010 66.3% of Indian Americans are employed in select professional and managerial specialties compared with the national average of 35.9%.[37]

In 2002, there were over 223,000 Asian Indian-owned firms in the U.S., employing more than 610,000 workers, and generating more than $88 billion in revenue.[38]
The following pdf shows that 74% of all Indian immigrants to the US after 2000 have college degrees and 40% have higher degrees.
http://www.jnu.ac.in/library/IMDS_Worki ... 240001.pdf

US policy after 1990 has favoured educated Indian immigrants. Only from 1965 to 1990 was there a relative open door policy. Check the table on page 7. Living in the US and having a lot of hot air miles is no substitute for reading information that is freely available.
sanjaykumar
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

It helps to stop bullshitting


Absolutely.

There is no substitute for intelligence.

There are several potential sources of error in your intepretation of these data. It is akin to selecting for Indian immigrants who have a toilet in the house. Because the bar is so low in India.

You as a physician really ought to know the difference between association and causality.

I will give you some time to reinterpret your reading more sensibly.
saip
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by saip »

The US gives visas mainly to educated Indians. It may be some caste related delusion you retain from India that makes you imagine that Indians doing the jobs you name are uneducated and the US has somehow given visas to uneducated Indians to come and join the workforce.
But for family based immigration, education is not a criterion.

In my own case my sister sponsored me and my siblings. It just happened we were all educated (selves as well as spouses) but my BiL too sponsored his siblings. It so happens that half of them are NOT educated, especially the women.
anmol
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by anmol »

Image
online.barrons.com/news/articles/SB50001424053111903843804579533663172522346

INDIA: Open for Business
by Jonathan R. Laing, online.barrons.com
May 3rd 2014

In 2008, Narendra Modi sent a text message to Indian mogul Ratan Tata asking him to abandon plans to build his new Nano mini-car at a site in West Bengal, where the project was stymied by red tape and farmer riots. Modi proposed that Tata move the plant construction to Gujarat, the Indian state where Modi was chief minister. Tata agreed, and the first part of his complex was up and operating in Gujarat in less than two years, an extraordinary feat in India.

This and many similar business-friendly initiatives helped Modi turn Gujarat into a fast-growing industrial powerhouse during his 13 years at the helm, following China's model of heavy infrastructure spending on roads, ports, and electric-power generation that, along with generous subsidies, has attracted many modern plants -- and attention. "So many things work properly in Gujarat that it hardly feels like India," noted a newsweekly a few years ago.

The hope is that Modi, 63, can put his pluck and powers of persuasion to work for all of India as its new prime minister. He and his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, or BJP, are the odds-on favorites to win the national election, which will wind up in the second week of May. Their victory would end 10 years of increasingly feckless rule by the Gandhi family-led Congress Party, which has failed to realize India's vast economic potential. Modi's main opponent for prime minister is Rahul Gandhi.

Back in 2006-08, India was mentioned in the same breath as China as one of the globe's most exciting emerging-market growth stories. The gross domestic products of both countries were growing at or near double-digit rates. It was the heyday of the BRIC conceit, that magical lineup of Brazil, Russia, India, and China -- nations destined for economic greatness by dint of their immense resources and increasing embrace of free-market principles.

In India's case, the dream hasn't come true. GDP growth has flagged to less than 5%, while consumer inflation runs above 8% -- in all, a nasty potpourri of stagflation. Last summer, capital flight decimated India's foreign reserves and drove the rupee down 20% in value to a low of 69 rupees to the dollar.

India is unlikely to catch up to China, despite the fact that both in 1990 had similar-size economies. Nowadays, China's GDP is more than four times larger than India's roughly $2 trillion. But, under Modi's energetic, investment-driven leadership, India could start to narrow the gap and transform both its economy and its markets.

THE BJP, OVER THE YEARS, has been more reformist than the Congress Party. And in Modi -- despite controversy he has generated for his alleged involvement in an anti-Muslim pogrom in Gujarat and his ties to big businesses -- the BJP has a standard-bearer with a sterling record in economic development.

Modi's governance style flies in the face of Indian tradition, which has featured backroom business deals in exchange for kickbacks to circumvent the prospect of endless bureaucratic delays. Bidding on government contracts in Gujarat is done on the Internet, not over tea. Modi also has embraced privatization of key sectors like ports, water, and power, which is unusual in most of India's 28 state governments and in Delhi, where a dreamy Congress Party's predilection for socialism still holds sway despite the ideology's many failures in India since independence in 1947.

In recent years, Gujarat has been compared to Guangdong Province, the spearhead of China's economic revival. Since Modi took control, Gujarat has consistently led the nation in GDP growth, accounting for some 16% of India's total industrial output and 22% of its exports, despite having just 5% of the nation's population.

Optimism over India's economic prospects has also been fired by the hard-nosed monetary policies of the head of India's central bank (the Reserve Bank of India, or RBI), Raghuram Rajan. He's an inflation hawk, having raised policy rates three times since he assumed his post in September of last year.

For too long, Indian politicians have allowed inflation and, more importantly, inflationary expectations to wax, rationalizing that they are the natural byproduct of an emerging nation's pursuit of growth. But instead of basing monetary policy on the more forgiving wholesale inflation rate (currently 5.7%), the traditional RBI target, Rajan is paying more attention to consumer inflation, which last month was reported at 8.3%. Already since his appointment, the rupee has strengthened from 68 to about 60 to the dollar, and India's foreign-currency reserves have risen markedly as a result of his policies, giving the nation more of a buffer against a repeat of last summer's capital-flight crisis.

Rajan would be retained by the BJP because of his formidable international stature. He boasts a substantial pedigree, serving as chief economist of the International Monetary Fund from 2003 to 2006. Barron's readers got to know him subsequently when he was a popular author and finance professor at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business. Rajan foresaw the arrival of the global financial crisis in the middle of the past decade and laid out a pragmatic restructuring strategy to guard against a repeat of the seize-up ("Man With a Plan," July 5, 2010).

Can Modi and Rajan rewrite India's economic story? Perhaps, according to analyst Udith Sikand of Gavekal Dragonomics, who follows India closely from Hong Kong. In a report titled "An Indian Counter-Revolution," Sikand likens Modi to Ronald Reagan as the onetime California governor came to power, inheriting raging inflation, slow growth, and years of budget deficits in 1981. Sikand says Modi even indulges in Reaganesque rhetorical gambits like "government has no business to do business" and "minimum government, maximum governance." Rajan, of course, could be a new Paul Volcker, the Federal Reserve chief whom Reagan retained when he came into office and who was able to finally slay U.S. inflation by brutal monetary tightening. "If Modi and Rajan are successful in packing the one-two punch that Reagan and Volcker did in the early '80s, the implications for growth and long-term investment returns for India are really explosive," says Sikand.

THE BULL THESIS on India is already beginning to play out. Foreign investor money that fled the always bipolar Indian stock market last summer has returned this year with a vengeance, to the tune of $5 billion. The S&P BSE Sensex Index of major Indian stocks has jumped 10% since last September when Modi became the BJP's prime minister candidate. It's now trading near all-time highs.

Of course, it's what happens with the dynamic duo in charge that matters most for the nation's economic growth and, of course, Indian stock prices. Ruchir Sharma, chief of emerging markets at Morgan Stanley Investment Management and author of the well-received emerging-market tome Breakout Nations, thinks India has a real chance to surprise many observers on the upside. "Look, it would take massive restructuring for India to catch up to China, and that's likely beyond India's current capability," says Sharma. "But India has some advantages over China -- India operates off a much lower economic base and has far fewer credit problems -- that give it a 50-50 chance of surprising on the upside."

One bull on India is David Nadel, who manages The Royce Funds' $54 million International Smaller-Companies fund (ticker: RYGSX) and is Royce's international research director. As implied by the name, Nadel fancies smaller and mid-cap stocks in India, impressed by the number of companies in that sector that are both shareholder friendly and notching gaudy returns on capital and equity of 20% or more. They also haven't rebounded to record highs, as have the 30 big-cap stocks in the Sensex Index, with the S&P BSE Small-Cap index still some 46% below its 2008 peak. (For more on Nadel's picks, see "Where to Invest in India").

Beyond the chances of fundamental reform coming, Nadel is counting on other secular changes in the years ahead. It's a familiar if somewhat overlooked list. A rapidly growing middle class and the world's third-largest economy based on purchasing power parity are just two of them. "In eight years, India will have as many households with disposable income of $10,000 or more as the U.S. or the euro zone," Nadel tells Barron's. "And the nation is rapidly integrating into the global economy in such fields as pharmaceuticals (half of the world's FDA-approved pharmaceutical facilities are in India) and high-value-added information technology."

To be sure, some 70% of India's population is still trapped in rural areas and missing out on the productivity revolution that China has experienced by moving population from the farms to urban-area factory floors. But, Nadel contends, a "rural revolution" is taking place, which has seen incomes in India's dusty nondescript villages and towns rise smartly in recent years. This is a result of various government food and fertilizer-subsidy programs and an ambitious government make-work project guaranteeing poor rural residents 100 days of annual guaranteed wages. The result of all this is that rural land values have risen markedly, giving the poor population that owns land a jump in wealth.

The upside is likely to be a surge in consumption per capita in both goods and discretionary services like health care and private education, according to Nadel. He cites a 2012 International Monetary Fund report showing that as of 2011, India had the lowest private consumption rate per capita among the world's 10 most populous countries, trailing even Pakistan, the Philippines, and Indonesia.

"You have to just look at the uptake in mobile-phone adoption in India, where subscriptions have jumped from practically zero at the beginning of the millennium to over 900 million, to see the potential," he points out. According to a local Indian brokerage-house report, the penetration rate for cars, computers, laptops, and air conditioners is less than 5%, and for refrigerators, washing machines, and motorbikes, below 15%. (See chart).

India's laggard economic performance since independence in 1947 can largely be laid at the feet of the state's founder and leader Jawaharlal Nehru and his descendants, who have dominated politics through the National Congress Party for most of the 67 years since. The charismatic Nehru, a well-meaning socialist, embraced some of the worst alternatives to free-market development, including avid nationalization of industry, incompetent Soviet-style central planning, fortress protectionism, and stifling bureaucracy.

Until a spasm of reform in 1991, a system contemptuously known as the License Raj reigned supreme, under which private businesses had to run a formidable gauntlet to be licensed and then were subject to strict regulatory oversight of the goods they produced, the markets they served, and the wages and personnel decisions they made. The regime resulted in prodigious red tape and corruption, both of which bedevil India to this day.

ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, Modi promised voters cheaper goods and 100 new "smart cities" loaded with the latest technology, to start to bridge the yawning wealth gap between cities and rural areas. The BJP election manifesto also trumpeted big plans to improve India's ramshackle intercity roadway system and creaky railroads by introducing bullet trains.

But significant obstacles face the Modi-BJP reform plans. It remains to be seen exactly how the elections turn out, and whether the BJP to reach a majority will have to form a coalition with MPs from states that have their own self-serving, parochial agendas.

Likewise, state-government wrangling over land-acquisition issues has accounted for about 55% of the nation's delayed capital projects that would constitute some 5% of India's GDP, according to a recent JPMorgan report by Sajjid Chinoy and Toshi Jain. Most notoriously, it took Korean steel giant Posco PKX +0.20% POSCO ADS U.S.: NYSE $73.91 +0.15 +0.20% May 2, 2014 4:02 pm Volume (Delayed 15m) : 127,815 AFTER HOURS $73.48 -0.43 -0.59% April 30, 2014 4:10 pm Volume (Delayed 15m): 3,385 P/E Ratio 22.13 Market Cap $25.81 Billion Dividend Yield N/A Rev. per Employee $3,374,600 03/20/14 Australia's Richest Person Sec... More quote details and news » PKX in Your Value Your Change Short position (PKX) nine years to gain approval to build a $12.5 billion steel complex in Orissa state, while ArcelorMittal MT +0.12% ArcelorMittal ADS U.S.: NYSE $16.24 +0.02 +0.12% May 2, 2014 4:00 pm Volume (Delayed 15m) : 4.53M AFTER HOURS $16.25 +0.01 +0.06% May 2, 2014 5:44 pm Volume (Delayed 15m): 43,731 P/E Ratio N/A Market Cap $27.14 Billion Dividend Yield 4.93% Rev. per Employee $342,647 04/27/14 NTT DoCoMo to exit India with ... 04/17/14 Blackstone Irons Out Views on ... 04/17/14 Japan Steel Giant To Sell 'Wor... More quote details and news » MT in Your Value Your Change Short position (MT) scrapped similar plans to put up an $8.5 billion steel mill in the same state last year. Clearly, the License Raj lives on in a country starved for investment spending.

Finally, tight money policies and a central-government budget deficit -- estimated for the recently completed fiscal year (ended on March 31) at 4.6% of GDP -- won't give Modi much immediate opportunity to ramp up stimulus spending. Unless the budget deficit that peaked in fiscal 2010 at 6.5% keeps contracting, credit-rating agencies have threatened to drop India's sovereign debt to junk status.

Still, Modi and the BJP do have some wiggle room on reforms. The JPMorgan analysts expect them to revamp India's power sector, chronically subject to grid crashes and electricity interruptions, through deregulation of pricing. The BJP likewise seems open to increasing foreign ownership in industries like defense and insurance.

Government revenue should improve if the long-stalled goods and service tax is implemented, replacing a hodge-podge of value-added central and state government sales taxes. Finally, a Modi administration would rein in the growth of various India-wide subsidies for everything from fertilizer and food for the rural poor to gas- and diesel-fuel prices. The food-subsidy program has been particularly problematic, according to Gavekal's Sikand, because rather than helping the 300 million or so of India's population who clearly need the support, it entitles about 750 million folks to food subsidies at the expense of the government exchequer.

MODI AND RAJAN make a somewhat incongruous pair atop the Indian economy. Rajan, the son of an Indian diplomat, had a worldly and cosmopolitan upbringing. He's emphatically an upper-crust Brahmin, educated at posh schools in India and boasting a Ph.D. in Management from MIT in the U.S.

Modi, on the other hand, is an anomaly for the upper reaches of Indian power structure. He didn't have much schooling and, as a teenager, ran a tea stall for his father near a railroad station in a town in Gujarat. His rise to eminence began in his youth when he joined the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, a Hindu nationalist paramilitary organization that ultimately was absorbed into the BJP. A mesmerizing speaker and adept organizer, Modi quickly rose through the ranks of the RSS and later the BJP.

His stock in trade were anti-Muslim harangues, which made him controversial among the secular, urban elite. Yet, if truth be told, their disdain for Modi might also have arisen from his lower-caste origins.

But controversy over his hypersectarian views continues to dog him. Much of it stems from a bloody anti-Muslim riot that occurred in Gujarat in 2002, in which more than 1,000 people, mostly Muslims, were slaughtered in a three-day rampage in response to the incineration of a train in the city of Godhra that killed 59 Hindu pilgrims and activists. Modi had become Gujarat's chief minister just months before the riot.

Though Indian courts absolved him of complicity, many observers claim the investigations were a whitewash. Among other things, they point to the fact that Modi subsequently appointed a gynecologist as his minister of women and child development who was later convicted of murder in the riots. She received a 28-year jail sentence.

In recent years and during the campaign, Modi has toned down his hypernationalistic rhetoric, preferring to focus on reform and the economic renewal of India that will uplift the lot of Hindus and Muslims alike. Nonetheless, both the U.S. and European Union have refused to grant him diplomatic visas, though in the case of the EU, that boycott has recently been lifted.

Likewise, Modi was accused during the campaign of cozying up to Indian billionaires like Gautam Adani with sweetheart land deals and large subsidies to spur development in Gujarat. But the charges seem to have gained little purchase in light of several megacorruption scandals that have dogged the Congress Party in recent years.

E-mail: editors@barrons.com
shiv
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

saip wrote:
The US gives visas mainly to educated Indians. It may be some caste related delusion you retain from India that makes you imagine that Indians doing the jobs you name are uneducated and the US has somehow given visas to uneducated Indians to come and join the workforce.
But for family based immigration, education is not a criterion.

In my own case my sister sponsored me and my siblings. It just happened we were all educated (selves as well as spouses) but my BiL too sponsored his siblings. It so happens that half of them are NOT educated, especially the women.
Since 1990, the ratio of Indians being issued legal permanent resident status based on employment as opposed to family based has increased from 26% to 44%. And this does not include non immigrant H1b visas which are all skilled workers. No statistics are available about the education level of family based immigrants.

But the overall literacy among Indian Americans tells a story about exactly which groups are most likely to get into America. Other than family sponsorship and tourist visas practically no illiterate Indian gets a US visa. The US selectively sucks up educated Indians. This is in contrast with the Gulf countries where illiterate Indians make up a large proportion of the diaspora. The US's need for unskilled immigrant labour is met by Hispanics. Not Indians.
Shreeman
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Shreeman »

Here is a short note from the horse's mouth on family based immigration: here.
Here is a timeline on the history: here.

As much as we would like to, family based immigration does not change the overall picture for immigration. Note, also, the TOTAL numbers permitted. The overall number of Indians -- in any category -- permitted to reside in the promised land is so miniscule after several decades, that you are arguing about magnanimity towards a small fraction of a percent of population in your differences of opinion.

Meanwhile, there is absolutely no way to document the number of people hurt by this process. And as noted it does not count non-immigrant wage-slaves (which are several times more every year, than family based immigration, and DO NOT HAVE an open a pathway to residency). The door is open to workers, anyone else only tries to sneak in through the cracks. The pain caused by a failed attempt (family or otherwise) is NOT just a relocation, it is a total destruction. And the process itself (when it is going normally) is extremely stressful, needlessly intrusive, and ridiculously costly. This fate is no different than sunk boats trying to get to Italy or Australia. You pay the piper -- in one go for a boat ticket, or over time.

If your arguments re. favors to Indians carried any water -- say for all legal immigrants (and not just indians) -- the politicians would be arguing about improving or destroying their lot. Guess who figures in the immigration debate?

American does not consider itself a strategic partner, or even consistent friend of India. It does not promote itself as such. And I don't blame it. USA also don't do this for Brazil, China, or Russia. Why should India consider itself special, and why should the US promote it that way? The last country promoted as "extra-special-all-lie" lies just to the east. No one wishes that fate even on their enemies.

If a society itself does not consider that it is doing you a favor, must you now present us with a secret special deal? How would we know you are not a Nigerian prince? Clearly naming yourself "sanjaykumar", while claiming to be a "Russian Jew" and describing "long lines for visa at embassies" does fit the latter image better.

There is more than even chance that these are not honest opinions, instead it is a "paid job", and must be performed to certain satisfaction, or you might be looking for social security. It is not surprising that the people getting upset know intimate details of each other, and can recall that diversity, and thrust it into the debate where it is not merited. Otherwise, nothing on this forum should have caused the amount of acrimony this topic has brought forth.

There is no scientific method of a proof by example. Proof by contradiction does exist. Those contradictions won't be hidden because you browbeat some perceived "third-world" forum members.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: Like all summative statistics, post count is not very informative. When you take the time to read the glorious one-liners, so full of self-glory, it leads one to believe that a hammer strike is inevitable sooner or later, unless the fundamentals of the forum have changed drastically. Thus, this, my choice to stay away from interactions with certain mythical beings.
sanjaykumar
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Some never tire of their schtick. It is unproductive reading claptrap, how much more so composing it.

So any ideas on interpretations of educated Indians and immigration. Or the factoid of third of NASA being staffed by these highly educated Indians? Surely that one made it into print too.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Prem »

Educated people tend to have educated family. Good chance, majority of the such immigrant family will have the similar profile in education.
Vayutuvan
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Jhujar: Not true. What kinds of jobs the other 33.7% people are working in? The 66.3% "professional and managerial" jobs also would not get money similar to physicians/surgeons. Most managers - even in IT - get 80K on the average. Programmers, Sysadmins, DBAs do get more ~ 100K or so. There are several in engineering fields in which the PhD salaries have been stangnant at 70-80K for several decades.

For reference: From the source Shiv quoted.
As of 2010 66.3% of Indian Americans are employed in select professional and managerial specialties
Philip
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

The crisis in the Ukraine and the puzzling nature of intense US/Western involvement,CIA and FBI agents in their "dozens" orchestrating events from Kiev,must be seen in a wider perspective,not just that of control of a buffer state between Russia and the EU,but the setting up of a "neo-Iron Curtain",this time meant to encage Russia by the expansion of NATO,thus preventing it from a "breakout" in the maritime sphere,restricting it to a continental role only,while the US continues to dominate events around the globe by its massive control of the seas.

It is worth reviewing the theories of a certain Brit geographer and strategist,Sir Halford Mackinder,whose views were loved by the West during the Cold War.

Mackinder wrote over 100 years ago in the early part of the 20th century,about "the unity of the oceans and dominant factor of sea power".He spoke about the largest continent,EurAsia,warned that if it came to be centrally ruled by a single authority,it could pose a threat to the British Empire."Who rules Eastern Europe commands the heartland (from Ukraine to Irkutsk,and from the Artic to Central Iran).Who rules the heartland commands the World Island (EurAsia).Who rules the World Island commands the World".

Since the French Revolution,history has seen the rise and fall of great powers,"continental and maritime".Only Britain and the US are true maritime powers,the rest like Russia France,China,etc.,being continental.India though a great maritime power in ancient history,preferred to play the role of a continental power over the last 500+ years,which saw it subjugated from the sea and become the "jewel in the crown" of the British Empire.

While Russia and China and India to an extent are trying to "break out" from being mere continental powers,the game being played in the Ukraine must be seen in a wider light ,an attempt by the US/West to push Russia back into the "heartland",containing it in a steel cage,a neo-Iron curtain,but this time meant to entrap the Bear preventing it from breaking out into the wider maritime sphere,of which control of the Ukraine and Crimea would've blocked its access to the Medditt Sea and the collapse of Russian support for Syria and its interests in the oil rich Middle East!

The melting Arctic ice has seen a scramble for access and control by many littoral nations,but Russia has had a head start with maritime exploration in the north-placing its flag on the Arctic ocean bed and acknowledgement that its continental shelf runs far into Arctic waters ,thus extending its EEZ.The problematic regions are the Baltic, another major chokepoint and the Medditt. and oil-rich Middle East,where the choke points of the Dardenelles,etc.,make it impossible for Russian warships and subs to enter the Medditt. undetected.Hence the need for ports like Tartus in Syria.

The Ukraine is therefore not just a pawn,but a piece of far higher value on the chessboard of the Great Game being played out before our eyes.

Daily Telegraph UK reports that a 3rd Ukranian helicopter,an MI-24 was shot down by MG fire from the "self-defence forces",pro-Russian forces of the "Donetsk's People's Republic".8 persons have also reportedly been killed.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

What kinds of jobs the other 33.7% people are working in? The 66.3% "professional and managerial" jobs also would not get money similar to physicians/surgeons.



matrimc, when presented with any (statistical) claims, always ask to see the raw data.So go ahead and click on the reference. It is /37 and click on that. One gets this

http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/tab ... Type=table


Now do the same with any ten of the statistical references.

So one makes very little progress.



This is an operation important in daily life of any one who considers himself anything other than gullible.


I will wait now for some confirmatory data, preferably unfiltered from the US census.


So we have not even started to analyse the data yet because all we have is a nebulous reference to Wikipedia taken as gospel. You will find once we get some numbers, there are enormous problems with their interpretation. And my reference to the US selecting for immigrants who know how to defecate in private was not made in jest. It is called confounding bias.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

sk: So even that 33.6% which I assumed is unsupportable - there is no raw data to support that number. Well, stats is not my strong point.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by UlanBatori »

Just pointing out:
In Ulan Bator, Manager == Yak herder. Job is mostly to clean up dung trail. Very prestigious!
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Sometimes young yaks excrete big piles of dung.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

sanjaykumar wrote:Some never tire of their schtick. It is unproductive reading claptrap, how much more so composing it.

So any ideas on interpretations of educated Indians and immigration. Or the factoid of third of NASA being staffed by these highly educated Indians? Surely that one made it into print too.
A course in anger management would go a long way in helping you to answer your questions, given that you already possess in macrocephalic abundance the qualities you demand of others, such as intelligence, a bias against reading anything, plenty of hot air miles and the "immigrant experience". :lol:

Here is some "raw data" from the link you managed to provide, but predictably failed to use.
http://factfinder2.census.gov/faces/tab ... Type=table

Statistics for Asian Indians alone (18 years and above)
Total: 2.049,772
Those with at least some college education and above: 1,660,816 (81%)
Those with Bachelor's degree or higher: 1,357,096 (66%)

Compare that with Indian education statistics (I am sure you can find the raw data yourself) and you know exactly what category of Indian is going to the US for that marvellous immigrant experience.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

matrimc wrote:
As of 2010 66.3% of Indian Americans are employed in select professional and managerial specialties
80% of Indians have at least "some" college education. 66% are graduates and above. The owner or close family member of the owner of a motel chain may or may not have a college degree, but he could certainly be in a managerial position.

But for me that is a digression. The only point I wished to make is as follows.

The US is critical of imbalances in Indian society and blames "caste discrimination" an "slavery" as being rampant in India because of a wealthy, high caste oppressor class and a poor, low caste, oppressed "crushed" class of Indians. In India the oppressor class in general, are wealthy, high caste and literate, The oppressed class are poor, low caste and illiterate.

The US that is oh so sooo concerned about India takes pains to allow mainly the educated Indians into the US. Those educated Indians generally belong to the wealthy oppressor castes who can afford education, and they then bring their relatives to the US as family immigrants - swelling the number and power of India's wealthy oppressor castes in the US.

The poor low caste oppressed of India over whom the US sheds a river of tears, don't stand a chance of a fart in a hurricane to get noticed, let alone go to the US.

Surely the US is a hypocritical nation in howling about caste and inequity in India while the uS actions only encourages the perpetrators of such inequity to migrate to the US and become even more wealthy and powerful while the oppressed and crushed of India are ignored.

The US really should change its immigration policy to let in 100,000 of the poorest, illiterate, protein starved, open defecating people in India per year. When they do that Indians will have to sit up and take note of the US's just policies towards Indian slavery and inequity. No? :D

Till then the US can continue to join us Indians in farting at the wind.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

Make no mistake about it....US is the most bania of all nations - it does not do anything which does not result in benefiting it or is not in its self interest. In fact, India's Nehruvian leaders should learn from this - one's own country's self-interest must always rule supreme, rest of the world be damned. Modi it seems like understands that, Kangressis Gandhi parivar doesn't care.

The US is also pretty obsessed with "log kya kahengay" and its echandee image....possibly even more than the Chinese.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by darshhan »

Raja Bose wrote:Make no mistake about it....US is the most bania of all nations - it does not do anything which does not result in benefiting it or is not in its self interest.
......
The US is also pretty obsessed with "log kya kahengay" and its echandee image....possibly even more than the Chinese.
Raja Bose. I have been hearing for a long time that US protects its interests. Kindly define what these interests are. Please elaborate.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Much editorializing but no hard numbers. Much less any analysis.

My aayah could do better.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

darshhan wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:Make no mistake about it....US is the most bania of all nations - it does not do anything which does not result in benefiting it or is not in its self interest.
......
The US is also pretty obsessed with "log kya kahengay" and its echandee image....possibly even more than the Chinese.
Raja Bose. I have been hearing for a long time that US protects its interests. Kindly define what these interests are. Please elaborate.
Its number #1 supreme interest is ensuring an uniterrupted supply of natural resources for its consumption. Its #2 supreme interest is to ensure that all nasty non pissful stuff happens elsewhere onlee and its landmass is free to progress uninterrupted. Its #3 supreme interest is to ensure dependency of others on it, whether as captive markets for its merchandise or in other ways. To ensure these interests are defended, its willing to go to war in far flung parts of the world and destroy entire nations which don't play ball. Is that wrong? Perhaps in an utopian idealistic sense onlee. Otherwise it is not.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Raja Bose »

sanjaykumar wrote:Much editorializing but no hard numbers. Much less any analysis.

My aayah could do better.
By that you are assuming your aayah is less accomplished. Unless its a case of Einstein and his chauffeur :lol:
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

I heard it as Sir Penrose and his driver.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by SaiK »

I am more concerned on those Indics ditch their country of origin and talk bad about it rather concerned about what USA does or thinks (at a priority onlee). The later is given (as said by mr bose), but the former category are the real evils or pakis of desh.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

The first duty for an Indian to elevate India to its rightful place (and that is at the top), is to criticise it mercilessly. Anything else is an abdication of that responsibility.

Just as I have posted my views on slavery and the legal inequality of blacks viz the incarceration rates for marijuana possession etc etc is an indication that in fact I do care about what happens there. I have not posted about human rights violations in Russia or China proper or in Botswana because it is not that important to me.

A lack of civic standards whether in India or the US needs to be exposed:only then can these be rectified.

The US has a large portion of the population who are so committed, you just won`t find them in the WP or NYT. Britain has a wonderful advocacy in the Guardian.

What does India have but a goon press
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by UlanBatori »

sanjaykumar wrote:The first duty for an Indian to elevate India to its rightful place (and that is at the top), is to criticise it mercilessly. Anything else is an abdication of that responsibility.
Just as I have posted my views on slavery and the legal inequality of blacks viz the incarceration rates for marijuana possession etc etc is an indication that in fact I do care about what happens there. I have not posted about human rights violations in Russia or China proper or in Botswana because it is not that important to me. A lack of civic standards whether in India or the US needs to be exposed:only then can these be rectified. The US has a large portion of the population who are so committed, you just won`t find them in the WP or NYT. Britain has a wonderful advocacy in the Guardian. What does India have but a goon press
No argument there. China also has a wonderful advocacy: mostly concentrated in the Gobi Desert and Tibetan Ditch-Digging and Re-Education Enterprises.

It is a matter of pride in the US that any (white republican) American can stand on the steps of the Capital and shout that President Obama is a fool.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

That is big assumption that the shouting is race motivated. Then Prof. P. Gopal is also a no go because she is a "she".
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by SanjayC »

sanjaykumar wrote:The first duty for an Indian to elevate India to its rightful place (and that is at the top), is to criticise it mercilessly. Anything else is an abdication of that responsibility.
Wrong. It's like saying that "the first duty of parents to elevate their children to take their rightful place in the world is to criticize them mercilessly. Anything else is an abdication of their parental responsibility." In fact, such non-stop criticism would destroy their self confidence and create massive inferiority complex. Same for the country.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

Indian Immigrants form queue on Mexican border and find out the truth
Meanwhile the Indian consulate in Houston sent its representative to meet the detainees on April 14 and, according to an Indian embassy spokesman, “The Consul expressed readiness of the Consulate to grant travel documents at the earliest after ascertaining their Indian nationality to any detainee who sought them.”

Yet according to the detainees, the consular officer, whose name is known to The Hindu , said to them that they were not “engineers, doctors or graduates, so why would the U.S. grant you a visa?” The officer also reportedly warned that they would be sent back to India.

Neither the Indian consulate in Houston nor Ms. Zamarripa provided any further reactions to the details supplied by the detainees.

Satnam Singh Chahal of the North American Punjabi Association (NAPA), a group providing legal assistance to the detainees, said that this case highlighted the problem of “human trafficking” as a criminal act that had victimised Punjabis.

Even as their cases hang in apparent limbo Simranjeet Singh said, “We don’t even care about food and water anymore — just give us freedom.”
The US should let them in, because their condition in India was worse:
However brutal this journey may have been for the detainees, their accounts suggest that their reality in India was worse. Most plead for asylum on the grounds that they are victims of “political harassment,” of one sort or the other back home, including by local police, and a sizeable number of them have passed what ICE calls “credible fear interviews.”

Both men who spoke to The Hindu said they had family members in the U.S. who were trying to help them build the case for asylum, but they have run into roadblocks such as the asylum officer in charge, in Houston, Texas, refusing to return their calls.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

SanjayC wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:The first duty for an Indian to elevate India to its rightful place (and that is at the top), is to criticise it mercilessly. Anything else is an abdication of that responsibility.
Wrong. It's like saying that "the first duty of parents to elevate their children to take their rightful place in the world is to criticize them mercilessly. Anything else is an abdication of their parental responsibility." In fact, such non-stop criticism would destroy their self confidence and create massive inferiority complex. Same for the country.
+1

Merciless criticism and the merciless beating etc are means employed by ignorant goons.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

But non-stop praise makes them overconfident and underestimate their competition - especially if the ones doing the praising also are putting down the other. Sure would work on the battle field. In a long drawn out marathon called war of attrition or diplomacy will be a redux of 1962 or 7th fleet visit.

Those young 'uns who are praised no end will also become entitled and sit on their laurels.

"ati sarvatra varjayEt" (excess is to be shunned always - both excess praise and excess criticism).
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 07 May 2014 09:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by shiv »

matrimc wrote:But non-stop praise makes them overconfident and underestimate their competition. They also become entitled and sometimes even lazy. "ati sarvatra varjayEt" (excess is to be shunned always - both excess praise and excess criticism).
And non stop praise of one country and non stop criticism of another sets up yet another dynamic - akin to non stop praise of one sibling and non stop criticism of another.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

Shiv ji, agree totally. Average has to be positive, High frequency sine wave rather than low frequency one.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Rajiv Lather »

deleted
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Nandu »

Rajiv Lather wrote:What is going on here to an FBI agent ? Image courtesy Express Tribune.
Retaliation for Khobragade. :mrgreen:
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by panduranghari »

Raja Bose wrote:
darshhan wrote: Raja Bose. I have been hearing for a long time that US protects its interests. Kindly define what these interests are. Please elaborate.
Its number #1 supreme interest is ensuring an uniterrupted supply of natural resources for its consumption. Its #2 supreme interest is to ensure that all nasty non pissful stuff happens elsewhere onlee and its landmass is free to progress uninterrupted. Its #3 supreme interest is to ensure dependency of others on it, whether as captive markets for its merchandise or in other ways. To ensure these interests are defended, its willing to go to war in far flung parts of the world and destroy entire nations which don't play ball. Is that wrong? Perhaps in an utopian idealistic sense onlee. Otherwise it is not.
Sure Saar.

But for the US there is only one interest that supersedes the rest. Or to rephrase it - the other interests of US are subservient to the only interest which permits it to maintain other interests.

This interest is to maintain The primacy of US dollar as the global oil currency.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

RL, Why in this thread? Thats Paki news.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Rajiv Lather »

ramana wrote:RL, Why in this thread? Thats Paki news.
deleted - no longer required.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

The pot calling the kettle black,what? What about the most extensive snooping that the world has ever known,spanning every nation,leader and continent? SNOOPGATE!

How about Frau Merkel's outrage at her cellphone being tapped,fine way to treat your NATO ally.That was not even the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg.So O'Bomber doesn't like it when the boot is on the other foot,delivered not by the good old KGBor its successor,but by its bum-chum of bum chums Israel!Serves the whingeing hypocrite well for his perfidy.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 41264.html

US accuses Israel of ‘alarming, even terrifying’ levels of spying
As Obama aides refer darkly to ‘red lines’ rarely crossed before in decades of mutual eavesdropping, Rupert Cornwell investigates a diplomatic bust-up that reveals how even the closest relationships between allies have unspoken limits
Friends do not spy on friends. That illusion about America’s attitude to its allies was conclusively debunked by Edward Snowden’s revelations about America’s National Security Agency and its British partner in global electronic eavesdropping, GCHQ. But by every account, the US is being repaid in kind by one of its closest international friends – Israel.

Israel has been trying to steal secrets from the US, its principal protector and benefactor, but also occasional rival, ever since the inception of the Jewish state in 1948, and even before. But according to the latest issue of Newsweek, quoting Obama administration officials, these activities have “crossed red lines” rarely encountered in the past.

In the words of one Congressional aide, with access to classified briefings in January on the subject, Israel’s behaviour was “very sobering…?alarming…?even terrifying”. Israel, it would appear, is after everything it can lay its hands on: not just diplomatic and policy documents, but industrial and military technology. The means include Israeli trade missions to the US, joint ventures between Israeli and American companies and, presumably, spying by Israeli intelligence agencies.

“Everyone does it,” is a common reaction to such claims of ungentlemanly conduct. But by these accounts, in the case of America no one does it like Israel – not even allies with intelligence services as skilled as those of France, Germany, even the UK.

The latest charges surfaced as Susan Rice, Mr Obama’s national security adviser, was on a visit to Jerusalem to discuss the Middle East peace process, Iran and other regional issues. They have drawn predictable, outraged denials from Israeli spokesmen. “A malicious fabrication aimed at harming relations,” declared Avigdor Lieberman, the Foreign Minister, adding that “we do not engage in espionage in the US, neither directly nor indirectly”. Off the record, other officials mutter darkly about anti-Semitism.

The controversy illustrates the complexity of the relationship between two allies who share a common enemy in radical Islam, pool vast quantities of intelligence and never miss an opportunity to profess their unshakeable commitment to each other – yet whose mutual interests and mutual trust have unspoken but very definite limits.

Israel’s appetite for intelligence is driven by the survival instinct of a nation surrounded by enemies, and whose suspicions can be quickly aroused by any US dealings with its neighbours to which it is not party. The US, for its part, spies on Israel for similar reasons, to gain prior knowledge of any unilateral action it might plan (an attack on Iran, for instance) that could jeopardise US interests.

The new claims coincide with stalled efforts by Israel to secure admission to the US visa waiver programme, from which 38 countries currently benefit. Hitherto, the assumption was that two issues were causing the hold-up on Capitol Hill: accusations of discrimination against Arab- and Muslim-Americans seeking entry to Israel, and a growing number of young Israelis who overstay tourist visas and work illegally in the US. Now, however, a third problem looms at least as large – the worry of US national security agencies that any loosening would make it easier for Israeli spies to enter the country.

On the face of it, the delay is still surprising, given the legendary influence that the Israel lobby wields among US lawmakers (influence that once prompted the right-wing gadfly and former presidential candidate Pat Buchanan to describe Capitol Hill as “Israeli-occupied territory”).

But if spying is involved, such influence would seem to have its limits. “They thought they could just snap their fingers,” a Congressional staffer told Newsweek, and Israel’s friends would get the business done, bypassing the immigration authorities and the Department of Homeland Security. But not so.

Nor has it been so in the case of Jonathan Pollard, the most notorious Israeli spy in the US. Mr Pollard, a Jewish-American naval intelligence analyst, was sentenced to life in prison in 1987 for passing US secrets to Israel. For years, his supporters, prominent Americans as well as a formidable lobby in Israel led by the current Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, have sought to secure his freedom.

But all such efforts have failed, most recently when John Kerry, the Secretary of State, dangled Mr Pollard’s release as a carrot to persuade Mr Netanyahu to extend peace talks with the Palestinians. But opposition to the idea was remarkably widespread, not just in the US intelligence community, but in the media – even though Mr Pollard, who has already spent 27 years behind bars, is due for parole in 18 months.

But the Pollard affair is a single chapter in a very long history. Long before his treachery, US authorities were uncovering cases of Israeli espionage. Zionist agents worked in America even before Israel existed, seeking money and material for the cause. Decades ago, John Davitt, head of internal security at the Justice Department between 1950 and 1980, declared that throughout his tenure the Israeli intelligence service was the second most active in the US after the Soviet Union’s.

In 2001 dozens of Israelis were arrested or held on suspicion of being part of a giant spy ring, and a US government report after 9/11 concluded that Israel ran the most aggressive espionage operation against the US of any ally. Three years later, two officials of Aipac, America’s most powerful pro-Israel lobby group, were charged with spying, for passing to Israel official documents on US policy towards Iran. The case was dropped in 2009 – but how many others have been, or will be, quietly brushed under the carpet can only be guessed at.
PS:Has O'Bomber forgotten about his newest foe replacing the erstwhile Commie under the bed (and in it in honey traps!)? Yes,it IS a Commie under the bed,but this time from the land of the dlagon,who've stolen allegedly all the designs for N-weapons,and JSF stealth fighter tech amongst many other secrets (ask Bill Clinton what a Chinese she agent stole from him!)!
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