India-US Strategic News and Discussion

habal · Post by **habal** » 18 Dec 2013 10:11

It's very difficult for Indians once they immigrate not to 'go with the flow'. It's silly if we sit with expectations from NRIs who have emigrated for greener pastures and now have found various reasonings to justify their moves. You will hear some very silly stuff in the process and they will keep shooting themselves in the foot. It then becomes a game where those who wish to have some perverse satisfaction can watch them trip and fumble with some glee. Is it totally necessary to go down that road ?

Meanwhile the massans have issued statements regarding 'reconsideration of due process' in such instances of diplomatic assault. Now that is the same excuse that they gave the last time during the humiliation of Meera Shankar and also the time Hardip Puri was purposely insulted at JFK airport. And they will keep giving out this excuse again the next time it occurs, that they will 'reconsider the process'. Firstly they didn't follow an established process, and then secondly they have given dubious statement of regret of reconsidering the process, which has been trotted out past many times and didn't achieve any reconsideration or change in their policy of harassment of Indian diplomats.

It seems as if they feel, they have gained such a deep access into corridors of power with so much stuff in their files that they feel that they can directly get confrontational and take on an entire lobby in India, without any harm of retaliation or after-effects. This tells us the enormity of UPAs failure in protecting India's interests.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Dec 2013 10:16

saumitra_j wrote:
Vriksh wrote:There is almost nothing that the US buys from us they cannot get from other nations. Whereas the US shapes the Indian security environment by various means.
And there is nothing that we buy from the US that we cannot get elsewhere so let's not get overboard on this. Indian problems will get resolved in next 2-3 decades, India will be a HUGE market but I think US has ensured it will stay away from it by all these things.They have been tactically brilliant on this like our friendly neighbourhood Pakis.

The good news is that everytime the US has kicked India, we have come out stronger and better. Take the LCA as an example. They kicked us on the FCS, we made our own and do not need them anymore. Take the case of Param: When they denied CRAY, we built on our own. I am hoping that a fallout of this crisis will be that we will get our act together in aero engine development and have our own engine flying in aircrafts in a decade from now.

When NaMo becomes the PM, he is unlikely to either forgive or forget and the US will soon realize that.

i hate to say this but my thought is that yell cee aa new engine was chosen from khan because of politics too, official reasons be darned or that they didnt look at the political aspects at all. we should have gone with the EJ-200 instead. a lot of the gear purchased in recent years smacks of favors given for great nook treaty. MMS has been a complete disaster in many ways and we will be suffering the effects of this chap for many decades to come (uk colonialism was good onlee)

Dipanker wrote:So every time our consular staff in foreign countries commits serious breach of law in that country and gets arrested for that, we should be conducting nuke tests?

( I am not saying that we should not conduct nuke tests, if we need to do more tests, we should.)

thats as good a reason as any to conduct nook tests.

reminds me of moshe dayans comment on what he would have done if arabs had not attacked israel first in '67 - "started a war in the name of my wife"

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 18 Dec 2013 10:23

If one needs to "understand the US" as many have claimed here, it is quite simple indeed. Lot of low level officials have enough powers and they are willing to exercise them fully in the context of their jobs. When the shit hits the fan like it has in this case, the full power of the US govt from higher up is used to justify and protect "Americans" like they do even when outside of US territory. That is how US operates, there is nothing more to learn and understand about the US system.

At the lowest level of aam aadmi everything works like a clock-work and it has dazzled many immigrants as one can see here in opinions expressed. There is nothing fundamentally different otherwise, as the exact nature of the laws and due process etc is just all dressing to make the case, merit of it depends on whom or what it suits.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Dec 2013 10:28

Karan M wrote:
i hate to say this but my thought is that yell cee aa new engine was chosen from khan because of politics too,

Where are the C 17 purchase supporters ?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Dec 2013 10:38

JTull wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:Let me float a CT.

If this incident spoils relations between India and the US, who benefits, hain?
Perhaps the Americans should have thought of the consequences, hain?

Imagine I am a TFTA paki with heartburn about USA "coddling" India. Or a Chinese mantri (the original of "mandarin") concerned about a US-India axis against China. Imagine also that I understand the nature of the USA in its foreign policy pursuit towards "third world"--mostly stupid and ignorant and like a bull in a china shop--and Indian elite's tendency to be sloppy in thought, analysis and execution.

It would be easy enough to get hold of a wannabe immigrant like Sangeeta Richard and carry out a drama and watch the tamasha with beer and popcorn.

Just saying...

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Dec 2013 10:44

rgsrini wrote:KLNMurthy,
Persecuting gays is a no-win dumbhead move, it will lose India support among a very wide spectrum in America and the West, including gen-2 Indians.
Not anymore dumbheaded than what the US did to the Indian diplomat. US should have thought about the consequences before its highhanded action on an Indian diplomat. It is the Indian law and US should learn to respect it and not break it.

I understand the sentiment behind your words and feel the same way.

However we should ask ourselves whether we want to win and come out ahead or just damage ourselves because we have a compelling argument in front of an imaginary impartial judge.

India and the US have unequal power. Revenge, though, is said to be a dish best eaten cold. if it were up to me, I would institute a long-term project of destroying the anti-India centers within the US State Depatment; in the short term, I would come up with ways of making every significant India-bashing official or academic pay a huge price. Like Modi said, and I hope he is serious, I would want to create a situation where American visa-seekers are at India's mercy.

But, by going after gays, we may satisfy our emotions for the moment, but we will weaken our position to achieve the larger goal.

habal · Post by **habal** » 18 Dec 2013 10:45

KLNMurthy wrote:The US Attorney is a job that does not have a parallel in India. He is a federal law enforcement official who has very wide latitude in going after anyone he wants in his jurisdiction. No complaint is required in most cases. It is often a stepping stone for lawyers with drive and political ambition. "Uncle Tom" nature or otherwise of Bharara has probably not much to do with it. For a Harvard-Columbia guy with top academic honors to take a relatively very low-paying job like US attorney strongly suggests that he is bent on a political career or maybe a judgeship in federal court, leading up to supreme court.

Again, some of the comments on this thread as well as the whole miserable situation with DK show a lack o applying the mind diligently to master the details of the US system, and making all sorts of careless mistakes and assumptions, usually in small details, but it all adds up to getting a distorted picture of what is going on and what to expect. We should be more intelligent than this. Even scanning wikipedia will give lots of useful information which the IFS people and also many on this thread seem to be lacking.

You and many others are getting trapped in semantics. Attorney may be all powerful and can do strip search, and can authorize anal and vaginal fingering of any civvie he chooses at drop of a hat or pants. While these are applied frequently to intimidate civilians and keep them disorganized and in fear. The assumption that they can go after anybody and everybody without a care is highly flawed, and it is for consumption of locals who are unfortunate to be in their domain, they do care if the entity they go after is in a position to hit back and protect their interests.

On other lines, in the end diplomatic immunity, is only as strong as the country the diplomat represents. This is the new rule of the jungle. Ever since the US began toying around with the UN and launched their military adventures without much blow-back, they are now emboldened enough to disregard the rule book regarding protocols.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 18 Dec 2013 10:46

People are wrong to say that a diplomat 'needs' domestics to bring up children. What garbage is this. 99% of Americans, all the way from hi-mighty to low inconsequential bring up children without domestics. Everyone else uses local help at local expensive wages if things are needed. Indian attitudes on this issue should change, even within India.

By bring the turd world situation into the USA a classic collision course was created. Fault lies fully with diplomat with poor relationship to a modern society.

Which BTW how exactly is this hi-falutin dame supposed to relate to America and serve as our diplomat with isolation from what American go through every day.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Dec 2013 10:48

KLNMurthy wrote: But, by going after gays, we may satisfy our emotions for the moment, but we will weaken our position to achieve the larger goal.

Why ? why cant we hurt them with 377 in short term while we follow long term plans ?

Let this be done. Lets make it messy. Lets make it so that no US official dares step into India. Cancel all the FMS purchases, and the shitty nuke reactors immediately.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Dec 2013 10:49

maybe least cost option is to clean out the gungadins in Indian media.
BTW after French revolution the English took similar action.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Dec 2013 10:50

saumitra_j wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:Persecuting gays is a no-win dumbhead move, it will lose India support among a very wide spectrum in America and the West, including gen-2 Indians.The current problem is in part due to lack of good understanding of how the US works; proposed solution like Art 377 is symptom of same lack of understanding.
And why is support of Gen 2 Indians or others so important? We are getting screwed anyway, with or without their support. I agree with you that we lack an understanding of how the US works: The US only understands you if you have them by the ba11s - else the US does what it feels like. The sooner Indians understand this, the better it will be.

After Indians understand that, what then? How to get hold of the US by its proverbial gonads? For real, and not the TSP way?

Expatriate Indians and their Gen2 progeny are a potential resource for India in pursuit of a worldwide dharmic agenda. By impulsively acting against gays, India will lose a lot of goodwill and support, and face a lot of nuisance attacks (like the visa denial to Modi) which will only dissipate its energy. Question we have to ask is: Assuming that our agenda is to gain worldwide ascendancy for dharma, what is the benefit (beyond satisfying our hurt feelings) in alienating potential resources for our project?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Dec 2013 10:50

Theo_Fidel wrote:People are wrong to say that a diplomat 'needs' domestics to bring up children. What garbage is this. 99% of Americans, all the way from hi-mighty to low inconsequential bring up children without domestic

Yes, you are right, everyone who does not do what 99% of Americans do need to be raped. Absolutely.

Spot on.

We should also convert to Xistism like 99% of Americans.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Dec 2013 10:53

Bade wrote:Wage differential of local consular staff is probably the easiest. Does the US wages apply for those working on US territory (US Embassy) ?

Now is the time for India's babudom to show their inflexible obstreperousness. There is a thing called "work-to-rule" which is very familiar to government servants in India. They can make khanate diplos' lives miserable, all the while ordering tea,, rubbing their hands and saying, "whattodoo, rules wonlee."

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Dec 2013 10:54

Lilo wrote:If I CongI had even one little patriotic bone some where deep within its spineless body , time to show it by conducting a series of Nuke tests . The CongI govt is anyway a lameduck govt - so it can well do this favor to India before the new govt steps in.

Actually this must be the norm. Every outgoing govt must conduct nuke tests and then bow out.

+1

I would add construction of underground nuclear fallout shelters.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 18 Dec 2013 10:54

>>in addition to being outraged at this incident, the Indian government, Indian embassies and regular Indians got equally offended at the ill treatment suffered by ordinary Indians while they are abroad, at the hand of foreign governments.

Pls give an example...

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 18 Dec 2013 10:57

Wow. So many apologists. US laws. The way the US operates. US psyche. Modern society. Afghanistan, Pakistan, China what not.

Why exactly is a strip search done here?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 18 Dec 2013 10:57

Sanku wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:People are wrong to say that a diplomat 'needs' domestics to bring up children. What garbage is this. 99% of Americans, all the way from hi-mighty to low inconsequential bring up children without domestic
Yes, you are right, everyone who does not do what 99% of Americans do need to be raped. Absolutely.

Spot on.

We should also convert to Xistism like 99% of Americans.

^+1 million. Didn't think i would agree with Sanku in the foreseeable future.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Dec 2013 11:00

Prasad wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: Again, some of the comments on this thread as well as the whole miserable situation with DK show a lack o applying the mind diligently to master the details of the US system, and making all sorts of careless mistakes and assumptions, usually in small details, but it all adds up to getting a distorted picture of what is going on and what to expect. We should be more intelligent than this. Even scanning wikipedia will give lots of useful information which the IFS people and also many on this thread seem to be lacking.
Doesn't matter. This was signed off by the state dept. Local law enforcement only has so much power. This wasn't just a case of the local DA trying to act all heroic and up his political aura.

I agree that if there was a prior decision to "teach a lesson" then it is quite easy to find a "crime"; I was commenting on the apparent lack of diligence on the part of IFS. For important postings, they should be training their officers to have the level of knowledge and capability to blend seamlessly into the system and culture of the host country.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 18 Dec 2013 11:03

Sanku wrote:
Yes, you are right, everyone who does not do what 99% of Americans do need to be raped. Absolutely.

Spot on.

We should also convert to Xistism like 99% of Americans.

Need to have guns & have the need to kill & slaughter each other like animals. Modern society wonlee. Primitive neanderthals and their gungadins!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Dec 2013 11:03

KLNMurthy wrote:: Assuming that our agenda is to gain worldwide ascendancy for dharma, what is the benefit (beyond satisfying our hurt feelings) in alienating potential resources for our project?

What is the big deal about 377, it is our law, and people dont care if US yahoo are locked up under 377. What's the queasiness with 377, because second generation MUTUs may think bad of GoI for selectively applying 377 on US yahoos? Please.

In which case please provide me with appropriate response to raping a lady diplomat please ? Wait for 30 years and keep saying yes saar no saar till then ?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Dec 2013 11:04

Dipanker wrote:
Lilo wrote:If I CongI had even one little patriotic bone some where deep within its spineless body , time to show it by conducting a series of Nuke tests . The CongI govt is anyway a lameduck govt - so it can well do this favor to India before the new govt steps in.

Actually this must be the norm. Every outgoing govt must conduct nuke tests and then bow out.

So every time our consular staff in foreign countries commits serious breach of law in that country and gets arrested for that, we should be conducting nuke tests?

( I am not saying that we should not conduct nuke tests, if we need to do more tests, we should.)

No, but every time a deliberate and unmistakable assault is made on India's echandee, conducting a nuclear test should be one of the options to consider in retaliation.

There is a reason why echandee is important--it is a measure of how much a country or person can be f*cked with and ripped off. Damage to echandee today translates to exploitative business deals tomorrow that lay forests to waste and leave people in penury without getting anything like a fair exchange (for example).

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Dec 2013 11:05

a_bharat wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: Again, some of the comments on this thread as well as the whole miserable situation with DK show a lack o applying the mind diligently to master the details of the US system, and making all sorts of careless mistakes and assumptions, usually in small details, but it all adds up to getting a distorted picture of what is going on and what to expect. We should be more intelligent than this. Even scanning wikipedia will give lots of useful information which the IFS people and also many on this thread seem to be lacking.
If your loyalties are with the US, fine, but please spare us your "understanding the US system" BS.

The US could have handled the situation much better, but they chose to behave arrogantly and/or with malintent. India should retaliate to make up for the current and all previous high-handed actions against Indian dignataries.

It is not a question of my loyalties. I want Indian diplomacy to be an aspect of India's worldwide campaign for dharma to prevail. In fact, all diplomacy is a peaceful form of war. In war, there is no excuse for not knowing your adversary intimately.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 18 Dec 2013 11:12

Theo_Fidel wrote:People are wrong to say that a diplomat 'needs' domestics to bring up children. What garbage is this. 99% of Americans, all the way from hi-mighty to low inconsequential bring up children without domestics. Everyone else uses local help at local expensive wages if things are needed. Indian attitudes on this issue should change, even within India.

By bring the turd world situation into the USA a classic collision course was created. Fault lies fully with diplomat with poor relationship to a modern society.

Which BTW how exactly is this hi-falutin dame supposed to relate to America and serve as our diplomat with isolation from what American go through every day.

Why should she not 'want' one? It isn't against the law to employ one, the illegalities of this case notwithstanding.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Dec 2013 11:13

Theo_Fidel wrote:People are wrong to say that a diplomat 'needs' domestics to bring up children. What garbage is this. 99% of Americans, all the way from hi-mighty to low inconsequential bring up children without domestics. Everyone else uses local help at local expensive wages if things are needed. Indian attitudes on this issue should change, even within India.

By bring the turd world situation into the USA a classic collision course was created. Fault lies fully with diplomat with poor relationship to a modern society.

Which BTW how exactly is this hi-falutin dame supposed to relate to America and serve as our diplomat with isolation from what American go through every day.

Theo_Fidel, where did you get the figure, 99% Americans bring up children without domestics? It is quite false. It is quite common for middle-class families in America with two working parents to hire domestic help for childcare, cooking / cleaning etc., to the extent they can afford. The children come home from school at 3 pm, and both parents are at work till 7 or 8 p.m. Who is going to take care of the child? Creches or day-care centers are often of mixed quality, and don't necessarily give good care to the children. The working poor, who can't afford any childcare, end up with their children roaming outside, exposed to gangs etc.

When it comes to wealthy people, it is the norm to have "servants" though that word is not often used.

I don't think your statement is based on direct experience of America.

Anyway, what I believe is being discussed is a question of deliberate and tangible assault on India's echandee that goes beyond DK's personal ordeal.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 18 Dec 2013 11:13

What iam saying is that this Diplomatic incident is nothing compared to what massa regularly does vis-a-vis India, forget it and conduct a series of nuke tests targeted at China.

China needs to be sent a message.

These nuke tests are nooo way related to diplomatic standoff in Massa-India Strat-e-gic partnership which will define much of 21 st century. India with its vibrant and boiesterous democracy is a natural counter to Authoritarian China.
India firmly abides by its minimum nuclear detergent. This new series of tests are aimed at increasingly pugnacious China at our Himalayan borders.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 18 Dec 2013 11:15

Shouldn't the real threat of India prosecuting homosexual partners of diplomats (with consular or diplomatic immunity) be enough to solve this?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Dec 2013 11:16

Neela wrote:Wow. So many apologists. US laws. The way the US operates. US psyche. Modern society. Afghanistan, Pakistan, China what not.

Why exactly is a strip search done here?

Strip search exists as a way to mainly dehumanize the prisoner (and, with a small probability, find any contraband items that may be concealed in body cavities). US criminal justice system is extremely brutal and inhumane, and unhappily it is correct to say that strip search is "standard," though I have no doubt that there are always exceptions made at the discretion of the officials.

US is a peaceful and orderly society (mostly) due to an unbelievably powerful police system that uses the most unbelievably harsh methods and is very effective.

For normal Indians in India, where "arrest" even of hardcore terrorists usually consists of SDRE policeman holding the prisoner by the wrist, with the prisoner often free to "show little finger" and escape, the level of harshness and rigour in the US system is difficult to comprehend.

Fellow BRFite g.sarkar may have some first-hand light to shed on this subject.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Dec 2013 11:20

Sanku wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:: Assuming that our agenda is to gain worldwide ascendancy for dharma, what is the benefit (beyond satisfying our hurt feelings) in alienating potential resources for our project?
What is the big deal about 377, it is our law, and people dont care if US yahoo are locked up under 377. What's the queasiness with 377, because second generation MUTUs may think bad of GoI for selectively applying 377 on US yahoos? Please.

In which case please provide me with appropriate response to raping a lady diplomat please ? Wait for 30 years and keep saying yes saar no saar till then ?

If necessary, yes. All the while diligenty sharpening the life, never forgetting.

Other option is to lash out in impatience and anger, and then forget all about it in no time, in a spurt of papi-jhapi.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 18 Dec 2013 11:21

Hindu article on what strip search meant ...

Detention procedures applicable to Khobragade, US clarifies

While it was also clear that she had been handcuffed, the USMS however shied away from providing further details surrounding the conditions of her detention between around 9.10am and 4pm that day, saying only that she was “was subject to the same search procedures as other USMS arrestees in accordance with USMS Policy Directives and Protocols.”

To understand these protocols better, The Hindu identified the specific protocol documents – known as Prisoner Operations Service Directives – that determine what actions the USMS can take against an inmate of the sort that Ms. Khobragade was considered to be.
...
...
According to the body searches protocols, there are four types of searches that the USMS is authorised to conduct: pat-down search, in-custody search, strip-search and digital cavity search. Of these the USMS and other sources have indicated that the strip-search was performed on Ms. Khobragade.

Defined as a “complete search of a prisoner's attire and a visual inspection of the prisoner's naked body, including body cavities,” the strip-search is typically ordered depending on the circumstances surrounding the prisoner’s detention, specifically whether the is a pre-trial detainee, which the diplomat was.

The USMS protocol mandates that when such a search is conducted Marshals should ensure they have “a private location that prevents all but designated personnel from viewing the prisoner,” and “all attempts to protect the modesty of the prisoner will be made to include modifying viewing and recording of CCTV.”
...
When conducting a strip-search, the deputy will instruct the prisoner to remove all loose articles and conduct “a thorough visual examination of the prisoner's body, from the top of the head to the bottom of the feet,” the protocol says.

The deputy then moves on to inspect behind each ear and look inside the prisoner's ear canals, nostrils, and mouth, checking under the tongue, roof of the mouth, and between the lips and gums.

They are also required to visually inspect down the front of the body, paying close attention to areas such as armpits, breasts, and genital area, the protocol says, including directing the prisoner to “spread her legs and bend forward at the waist [to] observe the anus area and genitals from the rear.”

“Conclude with an observation of the bottoms and between the toes of both feet,” the protocol advises.
...
...

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 18 Dec 2013 11:26

Sanku wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:People are wrong to say that a diplomat 'needs' domestics to bring up children. What garbage is this. 99% of Americans, all the way from hi-mighty to low inconsequential bring up children without domestic
Yes, you are right, everyone who does not do what 99% of Americans do need to be raped. Absolutely.

Spot on.

We should also convert to Xistism like 99% of Americans.

I don't condone what happened but by behaving desi in NY she put herself in that position. These things are done everyday to americans why should she get some special exemption. Just today in my area mom was arrested for shop lifting, strip searched and tossed into lockup in front of her 4 kids who went into social administration.

Americans are told to conform to local customs when they travel abroad. Indians should be told the same as well. The institution of domestic servitude is shameful and a collision with local laws was inevitable.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 18 Dec 2013 11:27

Offensive name-calling and general labeling deleted. Irrespective of how much you disagree with someone's POV, you're not at liberty to use pejorative and disparaging terms for such people. I'm restraining myself from issuing a warning here. Please mind it henceforth. - rohitvats

Issue is simple, diplomatic immunity applies here or it if doesn't then the understanding between India and US on minor infractions of the law applies and it has been broken. Retaliation is in order - I'm sure US diplomats have broken many laws in India and we have looked away. Many violations will be of a serious nature. Use the laws and prosecute to the fullest extent.

Why care about US laws, this and that. Doesn't apply here at all. Not in case where a person is representing India in a foreign country.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 18 Dec 2013 11:27

merlin wrote:Good thing is that this has exposed lots of house niggers like Rajeev Srinivasan, that Bhambra character, T P Sreenivasan, Indian media stationed in the us. Etc.

Am sure Ganga din MMS will be happy with an unconditional apology but even he will be perfectly fine when it doesn't happen.

Merlin, did Rajeev Srinivasan write in support of the USA in the DK case? I find that hard to believe. Can you provide a link to support your statement?

habal · Post by **habal** » 18 Dec 2013 11:29

then why did this unbeleevably powerful police force and DA with vast powers leave out the Russian diplomats from their due process. Who trembled and wet his pants for that omission to happen.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Dec 2013 11:30

>> theo fidel: don't condone what happened but by behaving desi in NY she put herself in that position. These things are done everyday to americans why should she get some special exemption.

wow, behaving desi??? what the heck is that supposed to mean...

does the fact that she was having a consular position mean anything.

incredible.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Dec 2013 11:30

I was waiting for this .. the queen has spoken .. The father in one interview that I saw uttered it once though he did not focus on this ..

Live: Govt delayed action as Devyani is Dalit, says Mayawati

11.27 am:Mayawati creates uproar by bringing caste into Devyani debate

And in such matters of national outrage, BSP leader Mayawati has created more outrage, by accusing the government of taking 'delayed action' into Khobragade's case because she was of a lower caste.

In comments that caused angry outbursts from the gallery, Mayawati said, "She is a Dalit, which is why the government has been delaying on action. Had she been from a different higher caste, they would have acted promptly"

She also demanded that the PM should intervene directly and make sure the issue is addressed. "When US citizens come here we show them so much respect. We must rethink on this", she demanded.

There was a massive uproar as Mayawati made her speech, but she was allowed to finish, and was then applauded politely.

Whether is a caste angle to this is debatable, but perhaps it is not surprising that Mayawati sought to bring caste into it. It is after all, her favourite political weapon.

Sitaram Yechury for his part, is now taking a more welcome macro view of the matter, talking strategic relations. He has also welcomed the government measures to take action against the US.

"You have bent backwards to create situations as per their demands. Please understand the depth of how much we have bent backwards to them. Please accept that this incident shows the unoversal values of hypocrisy that the US follows", she said.

11.20 am: We must launch the strongest protest, says Jaitley

Arun Jaitley is tearing into the government's foreign policy, saying that it is time that India takes its bilateral relations seriously, and insist on being treated like equals.

Blaming the government's past policy of 'looking the other way' when it came to foreign policy, Jaitley said that it was this attitude that allowed such incidents to keep happening.

A debate on the incident is currently underway in the Rajya Sabha. "We need to introspect where we stand on foreign policy", Jaitley said, adding that the measures taken over the last 24 hours needed to be continued.

Commerce Minister Anand Sharma then reacted to Jaitley's speech, saying that the government had taken note, and that this was a matter of national outrage.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Dec 2013 11:34

all those justifying this while claiming its all ok onlee..please just read the Hindu report above and say "ya all is well"..

i am not going to post that again. read it all yourself.

this is no way for her to have been treated as a representative of the indian state.

---
mayawati - as expected.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 18 Dec 2013 11:36

CT on twitter says that all this hurried huff-puff reaction on India's part is not about DK at all but perhaps about the US court notice served to the UPA chairperson only... I know. Quite unlikely, but in the interest of considering all the pressures that may have factored into India's reaction, might as well put it out there.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 18 Dec 2013 11:37

You treat others the way they treat you. If you treat others better than they treat you then you are in for serious heartache and it will be no one else's fault. The solution to this problem is simple and it does not involve any tension or nuclear testing.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 18 Dec 2013 11:38

Looks like the lady has had to surrender her passport, and is thus trapped in country.

I propose the Atlanta consulate issue her a new passport under an assumed name, and all Atlanta staff board the next flight out of the country with her. Once they are out, send the Hyderabad consulate home.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 18 Dec 2013 11:40

Theo_Fidel wrote:People are wrong to say that a diplomat 'needs' domestics to bring up children. What garbage is this. 99% of Americans, all the way from hi-mighty to low inconsequential bring up children without domestics. Everyone else uses local help at local expensive wages if things are needed. Indian attitudes on this issue should change, even within India.

By bring the turd world situation into the USA a classic collision course was created. Fault lies fully with diplomat with poor relationship to a modern society.

Which BTW how exactly is this hi-falutin dame supposed to relate to America and serve as our diplomat with isolation from what American go through every day.

Some facts
A. Most American households with working couples use some kind of help to care for children when they are at work - a nanny or day care center. Very few, who have help from other family members such as grandparents can do without some help.

B. The wages of an Indian diplomat cannot cover the expenses of the help that is needed for somebody who is away at work during the day. The salary of the diplomat in this case has been reported at about $4000 pre tax, including allowances. Even a day care center for one kid is not feasible at these wages. (See the next point to see that a day care or after school care facility is typically inadequate for a diplomat given the need for evening/night care of kids).

C. Most diplomats have the additional issue that unless they have stay at home spouses, the two parents are not in the same city. With a single parent situation, the challenge of bringing up kids increases substantially, given the requirement if the job to host and attend evening events, to travel both domestically and internationally, often involving overnight stays away from home.

The Vienna conventions on Consular relations, article 47 I think, specifically provides for personal staff for consular officials precisely for these reasons and exempts them from the work permit related laws and regulations that would normally apply to foreign employees in that country. In most countries of the world, such employees are given the same class of official visas that diplomats and clerical staff in diplomatic missions get. The US has interpreted the Vienna conventions in its own way to create a separate class of visas (the A3 visa) for personal staff, making them subject to US labor laws and regulations, while exempting officials (A1 visa) and clerical staff (A2 visas) from these laws. Many have argued that this is a direct contravention of the Vienna conventions. Indeed, there have been several representations to allow personal staff on A2 visas rather than A3 visas to precisely avoid the situation that has been created. To meet minimum wage requirements for the A3 visa holders, the Government would have to have an absurd situation where nannies would earn more than office supervisors and even some mid level diplomats. Or raise the wages of everybody to US levels creating huge disparities across within GoI and even within the IFS. Instead, as is the practice across countries, employees are paid Indian wages, with some cost of living allowances coupled with perks and benefits in kind rather than cash where the cost to the Government is lower.