India-US Strategic News and Discussion

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 11 Jan 2014 07:44

Devyani Khobragade row exposes Indo-US inequalities

This incident has exposed the inherent inequalities in India-US bilateral relations, with Indian feelings further exacerbated by US mockery of India's judicial system by "evacuating" the maid's family from India on "T" visas associated with severe sex or labour trafficking.

Such US interference in India's judicial system should not be tolerated and those in its missions involved in the issuance of such visas should be legally proceeded against.

The US has been trying to shift the focus from Devyani's maltreatment to India's decision to withdraw the security barriers "surrounding" the US embassy, which is a canard because only a public road that had been taken over by the US embassy to make it comfortable for its personnel to access the embassy club has been re-opened to traffic, but with security barriers alongside the embassy's walls and police presence still in place.

The decision to control misuse of diplomatic privileges by the embassy is being termed as "petty" and unbecoming of a democracy and a would-be great power. Such condescending editorials in the US mainstream press show how self-centred, narrow-minded and insular Americans can be.
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chandrasekhar.m · Post by **chandrasekhar.m** » 11 Jan 2014 07:51

habal wrote:was this news bit posted here, didn't look up previous pages

Crackdown on US embassy cars in Delhi
Somreet Bhattacharya,TNN | Jan 11, 2014, 03.03 AM IST

NEW DELHI: The traffic police have booked 10 US embassy cars since Thursday after MEA directed them not to be lenient with American mission officials violating rules.

Registration numbers of US embassy cars have been brought to the notice of traffic police personnel to ensure they don't escape breaking rules. Officers said of the 10 embassy vehicles, four were booked for tinted glasses and fined Rs 100, one was booked for non-compliance.

On Friday, five cars were fined for parking against rules and challanned, officers said. They added if embassy cars are driven by Indian drivers they are prosecuted under normal rules. For foreigners, the standard protocol is followed. No special consideration is to be shown if the driver claims diplomatic immunity.

Anyone know what this standard protocol is? I hope it at least involves taking away the keys and making them wait by the roadside for a couple of hours, while our pandus go about enforcing traffic rules.

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 11 Jan 2014 07:52

The monetary amount for parking violation doesn't matter. Booting/towing the car and having the person do paperwork at local thana can justify some of the hardship allowance and bad healthful environs.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 11 Jan 2014 07:53

Devyani Khobragade case: US staffer expelled for helping maid’s family procure visa

..
Officials said India was irked when the US immediately asked for her immunity to be waived as soon as the visa was granted. When the ministry of external affairs (MEA) rejected this, the US asked her to leave the country after she was indicted on visa fraud charges.

India then sought the expulsion of a counselor similar in rank to Khobragade. The officer is said to have granted visas and arranged tickets for Richard's husband and children last month, an MEA official said.

...
...
Meanwhile, India will not restore any of the privileges that have been withdrawn from US diplomats. Earlier in the day, the foreign ministry issued a statement after ensuring that Khobragade had got on the flight to Delhi.

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Reacting to the latest development, Commerce and Industries Minister Anand Sharma said in Chennai on Friday that India and the US had the "wisdom" and "maturity" to deal with such "sensitive" issues.

BJP leader Yashwant Sinha, however, described Khobragade's indictment in the US as a "defeat" for India, saying the criminal case against her would remain.
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Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 11 Jan 2014 07:55

Ha ha. Here is one such farticle in the financial times- " Modern India and medieval values - FT.com" on.ft.com/1cS8ig9

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 11 Jan 2014 07:57

India should allow vehicular traffic through the road illegally barricaded by US embassy.
Shut off water supply
Let sewer pipe be broken on all sides of embassy and let the aroma fill the air.
Actively shadow every car and photograph all movements.
Make life a real tough posting for Amreekis. A miserable hell.

chandrasekhar.m · Post by **chandrasekhar.m** » 11 Jan 2014 08:03

^^^Indeed, they pontificate with a drain inspector's attitude while living in a mini US township. It is apt to make them experience day in and day out what they imagine real life in India is like. Atleast then their "drain inspector" reports will be justified.

amit · Post by **amit** » 11 Jan 2014 08:04

India's tit-for-tat to the US on Devyani Khobragade episode-
India asks the US to withdraw the diplomatic immunity of its diplomat who used his tax exemption privilege to book tickets for Sangeeta Richard's family.
If immunity is not revoked, the American will be asked to leave the country, say sources.

Is this true? And separate from the first expulsion?

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/brea ... 35340.html

Edit: I think this refers to the first expulsion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jan 2014 08:05

another known violator of traffic rules per my sources is the TSP embassy. and the TSP embassy is just behind their friends the americans.

we should crack down on misuse of embassy vehicles and make sure all paperwork in triplicate is filed.

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 11 Jan 2014 08:10

Shouldn't India make a formal request to the US to deport Indian Citizens SR and family as their passports have been revoked. Sure, they have been granted PR, but still they are Indian citizens. Maybe hold the Snowdden card as leverage. Will be interesting if SD/PB bat heavily for SR or make token protests. That should help decipher the color of lentils regarding SR.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 11 Jan 2014 08:13

Yeah while we are at it we should also break their car windows, that should teach the ugly Americans a lesson!

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 11 Jan 2014 08:18

^^^Incredible, when did anybody advocate breaking windows of American embassy cars. That's a strawman argument. By saying tripe like that we only weaken our own case. All that's being enforced here are Indian traffic rules. We shouldn't enforce Indian traffic rules in India?

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 11 Jan 2014 08:24

I think GoI handled this incident as best as it can; it shouldn't relent now or in future.

Perhaps GoI deserved F grade for its handling of US prior to this incident, but not for this incident.

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 11 Jan 2014 08:25

BTW strictly reciprocal action may demand that there be an arrest warrant/Interpol RCN out against some Amirkhan official since PB wants to issue one against DK.

amit · Post by **amit** » 11 Jan 2014 08:25

Dipanker wrote:Yeah while we are at it we should also break their car windows, that should teach the ugly Americans a lesson!

Similar to how ugly Indians were taught a lesson for "human trafficking" with the active "connivance" of the GoI? I some MUTUs give a prayer to their (new) gods of being given the opportunity to get away from their primitive ancestral land.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 11 Jan 2014 08:27

MEA put up a good fight.We cant do much more.Indian elite are in bed with US establishment-politicos,press(chindu,toilet,undie tv,cnn-ibn)etc.They are stronger.

One good thing is and hindoos are not going to forget this in a hurry-The shroud has come off and the ugly,frightening face of pretavaadam is in full gory display.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 11 Jan 2014 08:32

>> hindoos are not going to forget this in a hurry

Don't we say that every time something bad happens? How accurate is that claim?

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 11 Jan 2014 08:38

^^^Indics forget everything. Tommorrow if the Massa overlord speaks politely and expresses contrition (yeah thats all that we demand) all of the free booze at the US Embassy will be restored, in a spirit of friendship, never mind the fact that multiple Indian tax and excise laws are being broken with our own connivance. No wonder PB thinks that Indian legal system is a joke. I dunno why we insist on solving all of this by simply accepting an apology. The insistence on our side should be to enforce our laws with strict reciprocity wrt Amirkhan. I don't care if massa apologizes or not.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 11 Jan 2014 08:55

The DK case a blessing in disguise in one way perhaps. For quite sometime now, we were getting uncomfortably close to the Americans and a reality check was sorely needed and it came in this form. In our generosity, our usual servility, previous arrogant cases of the 'ugly American' (not for nothing have they earned this sobriquet worldwide) were condoned and taken in our stride. The Americans like those who give them back on their face and therefore there is a possibility that the asymmetry would turn for the better even if only by a few turns of the screw. This new realization, if ever it was needed after our past experiences with the 'ugly Americans', should henceforth drive our India policies vis-a-vis the US.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jan 2014 09:02

Dipanker wrote:Yeah while we are at it we should also break their car windows, that should teach the ugly Americans a lesson!

While this may appear to be sarcastic it could be misconstrued as egging violence on Americans.

ramana

So warning given.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 11 Jan 2014 09:13

ShankarCag wrote:^^^Incredible, when did anybody advocate breaking windows of American embassy cars. That's a strawman argument. By saying tripe like that we only weaken our own case. All that's being enforced here are Indian traffic rules. We shouldn't enforce Indian traffic rules in India?

In Kerala, police on the highway normally fine cars with illegally tinted windows. People pay the fine, but do not remedy the windows. Someone told me that sometimes the police simply break the windows.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 11 Jan 2014 09:13

ramana wrote:
Dipanker wrote:Yeah while we are at it we should also break their car windows, that should teach the ugly Americans a lesson!

While this may appear to be sarcastic it could be misconstrued as egging violence on Americans.

ramana

So warning given.

It can only be misconstrued as egging violence on Americans by those who do not get sarcasm! The context is easy to see, all one has to do is read the previous few posts.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 11 Jan 2014 09:23

RCase wrote:The monetary amount for parking violation doesn't matter. Booting/towing the car and having the person do paperwork at local thana can justify some of the hardship allowance and bad healthful environs.

Agree .. The sheer irritation of dealing with ordinary Indian outside the sanitized confines of the embassy walls .. and the time wasted waiting for the process to get over and return back to their secured embassy.

habal · Post by **habal** » 11 Jan 2014 09:24

Altair wrote:India should allow vehicular traffic through the road illegally barricaded by US embassy.
Shut off water supply
Let sewer pipe be broken on all sides of embassy and let the aroma fill the air.
Actively shadow every car and photograph all movements.
Make life a real tough posting for Amreekis. A miserable hell.

IOW make them earn their 'hardship allowance' !

Also Dipanker, take it easy on the 'poor maid' business will you ? the more people respond to your one-liners, the more you defend your stance and get stuck in. SR may well be a mole, if Devyani is the type who doesn't think twice about discussing her official activities at home with her husband and the maid somewhere in the next room w/kids or in the kitchen can easily eavesdrop on every little thing. She can pass on this info easily to her father in law who is conveniently placed with Uzra Zia. This may well have been going on for a long time or she may have been recruited and planted with some difficulty by Wayne May types and thus the high level of irritation on behalf of the Americans.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 11 Jan 2014 09:27

Kati wrote:It'll be pure fun if DK heads the american desk at MEA......and one day she becomes
the foreign Sec (may be by NaMo, to sow his support for dalits) and visits amir khan
with full immunity.

In my fantasy scenario, DK will get a promotion and get appointed ambassador to US, will be rejected by the latter, whereupon Nancy Powell will be chucked out of India in retaliation, as it is clear that she played a key part in engineering this whole business.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 11 Jan 2014 09:36

Cosmo_R wrote:@Ramana ^^^ re 'Beehives' etc. You give these DoS types too much credit for having the forethought to gather the honey before kicking over the hive. Typical MO in DoS is to punch one's fist into what looks like a hive and extract the honey. Nine out ten times, it turns out to be a hornets' nest. No honey only money down the toilet.

@matrimc ^^^ re message to others etc. Most likely this person

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/biog/215777.htm

wanting to show her mettle, started the whole thing without thinking it through and precipitated the whole thing.

Wayne May is a good target. I'm sure he will enjoy life back in Buffalo

Personally, I think the episode will have some benefits: the MEA is not going to rollover at the US' behest over regional and other issues. Nothing beats babudom scorned.

Is there any way to find out whether uzra zeya has a TSP connection (as in Bihari settler family in former E. Pak?)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jan 2014 09:38

KLN thats OT. Lets stick to what is at hand.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 11 Jan 2014 09:39

One thing that happened for me during this episode is that I stopped watching US crime episodes in TV. Also one poster asked about US Vienna convention and attestation by US SD for UN Visa.

My doubt is, can UN Geneva office issue a UN visa? I believe Arafat once used this to attend a UN General assembly meeting in NewYork when US SD declined him to provide him approval for a UN visa

I searched but couldn't find any links, do anyone know about this?

My view is that India also should have a UN office to issue UN Visas

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 11 Jan 2014 09:45

saip wrote: ...

Why bring Ramayan here? So you think indictment is the God's word. If all indictments produce convictions then there will 100% convictions. 'Nuf said.

Relax, it is only a common vernacular expression to say, after hearing the whole Ramayana you are asking what is Sita to Rama?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 11 Jan 2014 09:45

Dipankar,

Don,t take it personal. All this is arattai.
Dont get daisy cuttered. These sort of threads always end with silly bans.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 11 Jan 2014 09:46

ParasuramanS wrote:If there is any self-respect, India should quietly initiate a ramp-down of all defence, security, and terrorism-related cooperation right now. No US military refuelling, flyovers, or any other courtesies. This is our greatest leverage. We are giving way too much, and getting way too little in any regard.

On energy, there is a lot (I mean a lot) - we can do ourselves. Where does the question of begging the US come in? Let's first use the resources at our disposal wisely - coal. Ramp up our own nuclear production. Rest will come.

The dirt on "sangeetha richards" and her NGO-friends (including the SD staffers) must be dug up and published.

The so-called twitter rightwing (mostly US-based "Modi" supported) are clueless, confused and do not see the truth in plain sight. Pitiable fools do not know what a true giant like Modi himself would do. More concerned about satisfying their white masters - watch these rats scurry, squirm and complain when Modi takes his first pro-India anti-US establishment foreign policy move. Only a matter of time.

Not so much self-respect as prudence demands that India pursue independent and diversified sourcing of all its needs.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 11 Jan 2014 09:47

Devyani Khobragade case: Expelled US diplomat had helped in evacuation of nanny's family to US

Regional security officer Wayne May, who has been asked to leave India, was the coordination officer of the India-US anti-terrorism assistance programme and a special agent of the Bureau of Diplomatic Security, the division of the US State Department that is also the complainant against Khobragade in the New York case.

New Delhi believes May and his wife, Alicia Muller May, who too is a diplomat and is posted at the US Embassy as a Community Liaison Officer, were central to the entire issue of evacuating domestic help Sangeeta Richard’s family and the action against Khobragade.

<snip>

Sources said India had initially thought of taking action against Alicia, a diplomat of the first secretary rank, as she had allegedly used her privileges to buy tax-exempted air tickets for the husband and children of Richard who left on trafficking visas.

This, sources said, was illegal as only diplomats and their families are eligible for the tax exemption.

However, New Delhi subsequently decided that “reciprocal action” should be taken against a diplomat of the same rank as Khobragade, resulting in the notice to the US to withdraw Wayne, who is a consular level officer.

Is it DDMitis about this chap being consular level officer? In which case arrest, handcuff, strip search and cavity search courtesy could have been extended.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 11 Jan 2014 09:48

habal wrote:
Altair wrote:India should allow vehicular traffic through the road illegally barricaded by US embassy.
Shut off water supply
Let sewer pipe be broken on all sides of embassy and let the aroma fill the air.
Actively shadow every car and photograph all movements.
Make life a real tough posting for Amreekis. A miserable hell.
IOW make them earn their 'hardship allowance' !

Also Dipanker, take it easy on the 'poor maid' business will you ? the more people respond to your one-liners, the more you defend your stance and get stuck in. SR may well be a mole, if Devyani is the type who doesn't think twice about discussing her official activities at home with her husband and the maid somewhere in the next room w/kids or in the kitchen can easily eavesdrop on every little thing. She can pass on this info easily to her father in law who is conveniently placed with Uzra Zia. This may well have been going on for a long time or she may have been recruited and planted with some difficulty by Wayne May types and thus the high level of irritation on behalf of the Americans.

You seriously think US needs SR to spy on DK when most likely they have dozens of moles among our corrupt to the core politicians and bureaucrats. Let's get serious.

I would be more wary of the husband, who is not a MUTU but born and raised American, for all we know he could be passing all the secrets? How is that for a CT?

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 11 Jan 2014 09:50

What is the point of making DK visit the US, or force US to deal with DK in some capacity, other than some petty ego gratification.

The issue at hand is the relationship between US and India. There are always going to be elements inimical to Indian interests within the US and some friendly voices as well. It is in our interests to increase the space for the friendly voices, and reduce the support for inimical interests. Indian government and babus have shown determination in this incident so far. Hope they continue to take it to its logical conclusion and ensure strict reciprocity on all affairs and completely eliminate "honorable mutual understanding" arrangement with US and enter into a formal contract on everything. US has repeatedly proven to us that it has no honor, and it doesn't believe in one.

US has broken the mild trust that India has recently developed in the last 20 years, and it is its responsibility to build it again. The US may overtly pretend that the ball is in India's court, but I am sure it knows it has screwed up big time. I think world over diplomats and government will be wondering if there has ever been a screwup of such magnitude in the past 50 years. US managed to showcase itself as an arrogant bumbling idiot in managing its international relationships. Hope it learns something for its own good.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 11 Jan 2014 09:55

Dipanker wrote:Yeah while we are at it we should also break their car windows, that should teach the ugly Americans a lesson!

Exactly why are you on BRF again, do you mind clarifying?

habal · Post by **habal** » 11 Jan 2014 09:56

Dipanker wrote: You seriously think US needs SR to spy on DK when most likely they have dozens of moles among our corrupt to the core politicians and bureaucrats. Let's get serious.

I would be more wary of the husband, who is not a MUTU but born and raised American, for all we know he could be passing all the secrets? How is that for a CT?

Well the politicians will not be able to pass on the nitty-gritty of the dialogue with Iran or Pakistan to US, because it happens at bureaucratic level and then is vetted at bureaucratic levels and only then passed on to the politicians for approval. The politcians usually hear what the bureaucrats want them to hear. Also the text prepared to be read by politicians is vetted and approved by layers of bureaucracy before it gets to their hands. So an entity with devious intentions, needs to know what happens beforehand a draft reaches the politician. There is nothing as handy as a mole at the house of a bureaucrat to pass on minute upto the minute details.

The husband is not totally overboard, he may well have skeletons in his closet and has his reasons for keeping quiet. It is eerily quiet.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jan 2014 09:57

Dipankar you have accumulated 3 warnings and that entitles you to a 1 month ban.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 11 Jan 2014 10:00

Dipanker wrote:Yeah while we are at it we should also break their car windows, that should teach the ugly Americans a lesson!

Rhetoric like this aside, India can do a much more meaningful while-we-are-at-it by getting to the bottom of the Headley case, filing the necessary FIRs against the individuals in FBI, State Dept etc. who have been instrumental in protecting him, and demanding their heads. US won't comply, but that demand should be reiterated at every opportunity, with maximum publicity, and should remain a perpetual roadblock to Indo-US pappi-jhappi.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 11 Jan 2014 10:03

ramana wrote:KLN thats OT. Lets stick to what is at hand.

With respect Ramana, isn't it still somewhat of a mystery as to why the US did this whole thing in the first place? Digging into Zeya's background might give us a clue about one strand of the Indo-US strategic relationship, such as it is.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jan 2014 10:07

KLN Daoud Gilani was an agent-provocateur for the US. He was still on payroll of the US when he was scouting for LeT. So they wont hand him over to India.
MKN lost a huge chance when he got diverted in political games.

KLN, it wont and you will get accused of picking on her.
Its obvious with all the coordination across departments and continents its a WH operation.