India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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SSridhar
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 02 Jan 2014 10:44

a_bharat wrote:Why Devyani Khobragade didn’t tell NY cops she had diplomatic immunity
It was at that point of time that Devyani realised that not only she had applied to the UN but the fact that her application had been already accepted.

This now offers an excellent opportunity for the US to crawl up from the deep hole it has dug for itself. It can claim that though Vienna Conventions and its own laws did not provide DK with immunity (the Vienna Convention interpretation by the US is utter falsehood and nobody cares about its own laws when Vienna Convention offers immunity), it is the UN immunity that it has to obey and per force has to drop charges against DK. This is the best excuse the US can offer and come out of an otherwise increasingly worsening situation. They can even say that DK also did not inform the police about her UN immunity when arrested etc as additional supportive argument.

But, India cannot and should not let the matter end there even if it happens that way. That is quite another story.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Prasad » 02 Jan 2014 10:52

SS sir,
It does not matter if DK did not know or tell the people who arrested her that she had immunity. It is for the people doing the arresting to know all that beforehand.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Vayutuvan » 02 Jan 2014 11:00

SSridhar: As an US citizen my thinking is that whether US can crawl out of the hole or not is immaterial. The SOP should have been to check a Consular Officer's immunity. What does it take? A couple of minutes of typing to enter Dr. DK's name into a computer and the UN PMI accreditation would have popped up. Heck, if I order a pizza from Pizza Hut, they would know immediately what pizza I would be ordering, on what days of the week and tell me what my order is faster than I can say "take out please".

Arresting and strip searching Dr. DK is a screw up of monstrous proportions. OTH, the question is whether Dr. DK is culpable outside her consular duties. If so, law should take its own course.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby srin » 02 Jan 2014 11:22

SSridhar wrote:This now offers an excellent opportunity for the US to crawl up from the deep hole it has dug for itself. It can claim that though Vienna Conventions and its own laws did not provide DK with immunity (the Vienna Convention interpretation by the US is utter falsehood and nobody cares about its own laws when Vienna Convention offers immunity), it is the UN immunity that it has to obey and per force has to drop charges against DK. This is the best excuse the US can offer and come out of an otherwise increasingly worsening situation. They can even say that DK also did not inform the police about her UN immunity when arrested etc as additional supportive argument.

But, India cannot and should not let the matter end there even if it happens that way. That is quite another story.


SS-sir,
For some reason, the SD does *not* want to crawl out of the hole. If SD wanted to, they could have declared DK as "persona non grata", it could have expelled her, it could have asked India to withdraw her, it could have declared that immunity is retro-active.

Nope - didn't do any such thing. For some reason, it & WH too has abdicated this to the courts. I'm puzzled about the reason.
It looks like SD does wants war.
Last edited by srin on 02 Jan 2014 11:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 02 Jan 2014 11:27

that is because they phucked up royally on the strip search. biggest blunder!

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby TKiran » 02 Jan 2014 11:40

Assuming that DK's salary was mentioned as$4500/- and not SR's is true, and also as DS160 form was submitted by SR (NOT DK) to the Visa Officer, the question of DK lieing to VO does not arise. However there couls be some documwnts submitted by SR (again not by DK) to VO in support of her salary she would be paid by her employer in USA which might have been signed by DK, also mentioning $9.75 an hour. Subsequently another contract signed by DK mentioning it was $3.3 an hour, which was again reluctantly signed by DK, naievely beleiving SR. so it is a case of xheating. So the charge of Visa fraud. Doesnot hold, but charge of lying and cheating SR will hold. Almost difficult to defend DK. She should not have signed the second contract. Even if she proves that perks including she was paying more than $9.75 why sign the second contract? SR was too clever for DK.
Last edited by TKiran on 02 Jan 2014 12:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby svenkat » 02 Jan 2014 11:41

It looks like SD does wants war.


Its much more simple.They expect India to whimper and capitulate.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 02 Jan 2014 12:08

Prasad wrote:It does not matter if DK did not know or tell the people who arrested her that she had immunity. It is for the people doing the arresting to know all that beforehand.
matrimc wrote: The SOP should have been to check a Consular Officer's immunity.

I know that, but I am saying the the US can offer that as an excuse. Who is going to question them if they do so and GoI agrees to that as a quid-pro-quo ?

It was not as though DK was charged for a traffic violation suddenly. This was a well planned operation. So, all checks should have been done much earlier. And, yet they concluded that DK could be arrested stripped and searched. This is what makes me wonder that there is something more sinister than what meets the eye.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vic » 02 Jan 2014 12:44

GoI had meekly ignored Deyani issue as gamed by the State Department. Only problem was that Devyani father turned out to be a wanna be politician who did not take the rape of his daughter lying down. SR disappeared after just a few months without even a couple of dollars which shows that things were planned in India itself.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vic » 02 Jan 2014 12:48

SR knew of her Salary before she left India, so why is she not charged with conspiracy? It is not as if she was abducted and forced to fill in visa application. Why Deyani's US husband is not charged for using forced labour? Why MMS Govt has not taken any real action against US embassy personnel till date?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 02 Jan 2014 12:49

The Yanquis are sitting atop their dung heap of racist white superiority where the "paleface" can do no wrong. Tto them,the Injun squaw should accept her inferiority status and live by "reservation rules" . For the Injuns to believe that they are equal to the Great White Chief in his land,even if the current incumbent is of the opposite colour,the great white tribe rules the land and believes it rules the world too,and the sooner war-whoopin' Injuns realise this the better for them.There is no way that the white man is going to pass the peace-pipe with the Injun unless it is filled with his brand of baccy!

So where do the Injuns go to from here? Put the war paint on or retreat back into their diplomatic reservation? The answer lies with the widow of the slain Injun chief ,she who remains as silent as the totem pole. Sadly for the tribe,its "medicine man" of yore has been found to be touting snake oil as a cure,and who will soon be passing his feathered headdress onto a young brave who needs to prove himself...before he goes to fight at the battle for Bharat with his neighbouring chiefs and pretender to the throne !

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby g.sarkar » 02 Jan 2014 12:52

http://world.time.com/2014/01/02/devyan ... back-down/
"Devyani Khobragade Scandal: Why India Still Won’t Back Down
Three weeks after the bilateral row began over the arrest of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade in New York, the dust has yet to settle on the wintery streets of New Delhi. People may have stopped burning of images of President Barack Obama, but India’s front pages still carry news of the ongoing fallout, detailing the tense exchanges between the U.S. and India over the strip search and detention of India’s deputy consul general in New York, whom India says had immunity at the time of her arrest.
On Dec. 12, U.S. State Department agents arrested Khobragade outside her children’s school in New York, after which she was strip searched and detained before being released on bail. She has been charged with making false declarations on a visa application for her Indian domestic worker, and has allegedly broken U.S. law by paying her employee below the minimum wage, among other alleged infractions......."
Gautam

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 02 Jan 2014 13:16

Nandu wrote:IMHO, India has as much to lose as the US from a general downgrade in the relationship.

Strict reciprocity in the handling of diplomatic protocols, and keep other matters separate, please.


Sir bold part ... make me think it is one way street.

While I appreciate and somehow agree with your second statement. I am just suggesting to reduce further dependence by not buying military hardware. We are already thinking why we will lose more because we are importing engines, transport planes from Khan. So it is better not to buy more, to be more dependable on country which have no intention to respect our diplomats who represent out country (aka country national interest).
Last edited by RKumar on 02 Jan 2014 14:49, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vishvak » 02 Jan 2014 13:52

^Apparently no comment on new York police not investigating demands by maid, no comments on why NY police didn't care to find out immunity status of the diplomat, no comments in time magazine about propaganda against yindoo society in USA even when hardly 1% of population is Hindu, no comments on whether maid willingly put demands under prodding by EJ lobby, no comments about anything more than narrow PoV of not backing down by India and what to do when fact is international conventions have been followed by Indian side. It seems to be an acceptable practice to arrest someone in new York sop style under cover of propaganda.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 02 Jan 2014 15:17

Cosmo_R wrote:Market access is governed by the WTO. Not by individual countries.

WTO can set a framework but at the end each nation has their own laws. Like USA laws can over rule some of the UN conventions. :mrgreen:

The amount we intend/can buy from the US is a small fraction of the US defense pie which domestically is $716 billion in 2013 not counting 'black' projects.

No matter how big is their domestic market, it is shrinking. It is in public they are cutting down many defence projects. Few billions of earning + they can dictate their terms by not supplying spare parts when they want. Nothing short of blackmailing.

India is not going to provide those human resources.
We are already commited to Sudan and may be other parts. They are pushing us hard, put our boots in other places also. I know it is not for US but still it is resources committed to UN (Which is still in hands of western countries).

What could India do about it? We cannot/don't want to take action after 26/11
India is providing money, training and support to Af. US will be jumping up and down if we decided to put our solider on the front for them. It is we, who are refusing to get involve (rightly so). But still we are committing money and effort due to mutual benefit. And there is nothing we can do to stop attacks on US soil.

We are more likely to need their help as and when China attacks us

Don't people get this simple fact no one is going to help us. We are our own!!

Please don't misunderstand. India and the US need each other.

Just trying to think in terms of LGBs instead of dumb bombs
.


Aren't contradicting yourself, if I read underline sentences. India and US need each other, but we are more likely to need their help

And please do read my posts once again. I NEVER SAID, take the relations to breaking point but slow down the pace. Buy what is absolutely necessary and skip what we can develop our self in next decade + we can live without it.

e.g. Chinook, we need those so lets go ahead and buy those. Lets go ahead with follow on orders of transport and navy planes. But kill all other deals.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 02 Jan 2014 17:56

Whatever the outcome of this sorry affair,the writing is on the wall,in capital letters,that no matter what enthusiasts and touts about the Indo-US special "strategic relationship" is concerned,we will be treated like black "cotton pickers" of the deep south of the US of A.Slaves and serfs to do "massa's" bidding and take a kick in the backside every now and then.

Clearly a wind down in relations across the board is required,at the very least the cessation of diplomatic ,economic and strategic "fellatio" that has characterised the Man Mohan US doctrine ,where junior US babus have had a free run of the nation's policy making with easy access to those far above their equiv. status. The abdication of foreign policy especially with regard to Pak and its unrelenting terror campaign against India and indecent haste in buying US weaponry (even while this issue boils) while deals with other nations languish in acute indecision in the MOD raises doubts as to who runs our MOD,Delhi or Washington?

For a start a suspension of mil. exercises with US forces should be immediate,cessation of further buys of weaponry,cancellation of intel cooperation,return of all US military and non-diplomatic govt. entities in India,removal of all extra diplomatic privileges and a tit-for-tat response to any undignified and disgraceful treatment of Indian diplomats,including expulsion of US envoys,plus sending the Indo-US N-deal where it belongs.Into the dustbin.Has the US done anything to prevent the Chinese N-proliferation with Pak? In addition,the deportation of Warren Anderson,Headley,the maid and husband and our RAW traitor must be pre-requisite for normalising relations.

This is an unacceptable relationship to every self-respecting and patriotic Indian.Such treatment of an Indian diplomat by the US would've been unheard of during the days of Mrs.G. even when Nixon and Kissinger were in charge.I seriously doubt that even Dr.K at that time during the Cold War era would've allowed such despicable treatment of an Indian lady diplomat .Unfortunately,we have today and thank God for not much longer the most servile eunuch ever to have held leadership in any Indian govt. that too as PM,"Servile Singh",mendicant of snake oil defence and diplomatic policies, whose lust and hunger for US acceptance has shamed his legacy and tarnished his reputation beyond redemption.
Last edited by Philip on 02 Jan 2014 18:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Jan 2014 18:00

the $1b javelin deal is a prime candidate which can be killed without repercussions on existing stock - we have none.
BDL has produced and is producing massive numbers of konkurs and milan2T.
things can be managed without the javelin if we invest properly in nag and helina.

the chinook and apache are another two iffy purchases that fulfill no particularly urgent need - esp the apache, the IAF could buy twice that number of LCH to replace the Mi-35 when they retire soon...but they need to let go of the khujli to be superiah to IA LCH.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 02 Jan 2014 19:38

RKumar wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:Market access is governed by the WTO. Not by individual countries.

WTO can set a framework but at the end each nation has their own laws. Like USA laws can over rule some of the UN conventions. :mrgreen:

The amount we intend/can buy from the US is a small fraction of the US defense pie which domestically is $716 billion in 2013 not counting 'black' projects.

No matter how big is their domestic market, it is shrinking. It is in public they are cutting down many defence projects. Few billions of earning + they can dictate their terms by not supplying spare parts when they want. Nothing short of blackmailing.

India is not going to provide those human resources.
We are already commited to Sudan and may be other parts. They are pushing us hard, put our boots in other places also. I know it is not for US but still it is resources committed to UN (Which is still in hands of western countries).

What could India do about it? We cannot/don't want to take action after 26/11
India is providing money, training and support to Af. US will be jumping up and down if we decided to put our solider on the front for them. It is we, who are refusing to get involve (rightly so). But still we are committing money and effort due to mutual benefit. And there is nothing we can do to stop attacks on US soil.

We are more likely to need their help as and when China attacks us

Don't people get this simple fact no one is going to help us. We are our own!!

Please don't misunderstand. India and the US need each other.

Just trying to think in terms of LGBs instead of dumb bombs
.


Aren't contradicting yourself, if I read underline sentences. India and US need each other, but we are more likely to need their help

And please do read my posts once again. I NEVER SAID, take the relations to breaking point but slow down the pace. Buy what is absolutely necessary and skip what we can develop our self in next decade + we can live without it.

e.g. Chinook, we need those so lets go ahead and buy those. Lets go ahead with follow on orders of transport and navy planes. But kill all other deals.


I see no contradiction in anything I've post. What I've said all along, is separate the diplo affair from the larger trade and strategic issues

1. When one talks of "US will lose one of the biggest consumer market in the world." It implies some sort of sanction against imports from the US. If this happens, India will lose the biggest consumer market. We exported ~$5bn in textiles to the US in the last year. China, Vietnam, Cambodia and many others will happily fill the void. The people in India most hurt would be lower income, women etc. On top of that we run a $7bn annual surplus with the US

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablo ... ed-picture

Not only will we get rapped by the WTO, confront penalties but also shoot our poorest workers in the process.

2. When one says " Few billions of earning + they can dictate their terms by not supplying spare parts when they want. Nothing short of blackmailing". To me, it seems like what the Russians have perfected as an art form.

3. When one says "We are already commited to Sudan and may be other parts. They are pushing us hard, put our boots in other places also. I know it is not for US but still it is resources committed to UN (Which is still in hands of western countries).

I think you'll find that the constituency for this is within India, as a way to improve chances for a UNSC seat (which it won't) and at the Jawan-level because they can get generous allowances for UN work. FWIW, I think it's stupid for us to be in DRC, Sudan and other places. Let the Chinese deal with it.

4. When one says: Don't people get this simple fact no one is going to help us. We are our own!!" we all get it. The point is do we also want to make more enemies while we are at it?

5. "India and the US need each other" . The US needs India to help prevent PRC from acting in an unrestrained manner and picking off rivals one by one. India needs the US not only to prevent the PRC from upping the ante with us but also to help when we do get attacked. And, we are more likely to get attacked by the PRC than the US is—IOW, we need the US more than they need us. We are talking degrees of need so there is no contradiction.

6. When one says " I NEVER SAID, take the relations to breaking point but slow down the pace." True in a literal sense. But, if the point about losing one of the biggest consumer markets still holds, it will take relations to the breaking point. Also, slowing the pace down to what? The IA has not bought a new gun since the Bofors (~28 years?).

7." Buy what is absolutely necessary and skip what we can develop our self in next decade + we can live without it. e.g. Chinook, we need those so lets go ahead and buy those. Lets go ahead with follow on orders of transport and navy planes. But kill all other deals." No one can argue with the first part. The second part beginning with Chinook, shows how divided we are: Singha in his post above says "
the chinook and apache are another two iffy purchases that fulfill no particularly urgent". Others want to kill C17s, C-130s. The only people who can make this call are the IA/IAF.

o repeat, I don't have any problem with respective MEA/DoS babus fighting each other over privileges or lack thereof. Nor do I have any problem with strictly enforced reciprocity for diplos. This is the one area where we can inflict maximum pain without hurting ourselves and it can be perfectly calibrated.

Silo the DK incident and fracas from the strategic relationship.

JMT

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 02 Jan 2014 19:46

Karan M wrote:Cosmo ji

The GE engines for LCA thing is not such a deal breaker by itself. If push comes to shove, and India can allocate money, it can stockpile spares and also buy excess engines and stores them. Net, its all about money. If it was PRC, it wouldnt think twice about doing something like this. ..


I think we are saying the same thing. Why stockpile spares, buy excess engines etc when by not letting the DK incident spillover to important defense issues, we can have business as usual? I think the question came about because someone mentioned AL-55s and EJ 200s as replacements for the GE engines as a way of showing pique. That would be silly.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby vasu raya » 02 Jan 2014 19:58

Just because we silo issues, there is an implicit expectation that US would silo in such way too, leverage doesn't work that way, take the example of Raymond Davis, finally Pak had to issue a statement that in the larger interest of the nation, i.e., american funds we are letting go of the 'American diplomat', the wives of the victims committed suicide meaning justice wasn't done.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Karan M » 02 Jan 2014 20:14

Cosmo_R wrote:
Karan M wrote:Cosmo ji

The GE engines for LCA thing is not such a deal breaker by itself. If push comes to shove, and India can allocate money, it can stockpile spares and also buy excess engines and stores them. Net, its all about money. If it was PRC, it wouldnt think twice about doing something like this. ..


I think we are saying the same thing. Why stockpile spares, buy excess engines etc when by not letting the DK incident spillover to important defense issues, we can have business as usual? I think the question came about because someone mentioned AL-55s and EJ 200s as replacements for the GE engines as a way of showing pique. That would be silly.


..why do all this...? to be safe, not for pique etc.
imho, india needs to safeguard the LCA from overzealous lunacy that resulted in first bunch of sanctions.
we should have gone for a completely khan free LCA but again hitched our coattails to them.
now only way out is to stockpile stuff.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby saip » 02 Jan 2014 20:46

TKiran wrote:Assuming that DK's salary was mentioned as$4500/- and not SR's is true, and also as DS160 form was submitted by SR (NOT DK) to the Visa Officer, the question of DK lieing to VO does not arise. ... SR was too clever for DK.


DK has prepared the form DS160 and put her name as the one who prepared. (Somewhere I read the IP address was traced to DK's computer -- NSA in action?). 'Caused to be submitted knowing it to be false' is another thing they said - the contract she prepared and gave SR to submit. These things are vague and may not amount to much. These are the things to be argued by the lawyers and decided by the courts. About the immunity, while the UN thing might have given her immunity from arrest, I am not sure it will give her immunity from being charged as this supposed visa fraud happened before she got the immunity, i.e. when she clicked 'submit' from her computer from home in Delhi. So if that is the time when the crime was committed, do US courts have extra territorial jurisdiction to charge her? That again is for lawyers to argue and the courts to decide.

Also, as far as I can tell, whether a live in person's wages can include board and lodging expenses, is not prescribed by the US law but were put there by rules made under the law. If these rules are too wide and are not in conformity with the law or Constitution (as they seem to put foreign live in workers in totally different class) they can be thrown out by the courts.
Last edited by saip on 02 Jan 2014 21:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 02 Jan 2014 20:54

Quid pro quo for US approving DK's UN accredition this week?

India steps up security for US embassy; deploys 150 policemen

...
"As many 150 police personnel are being deployed during a 24-hour period in shifts at the US embassy, School and American Centre in New Delhi. Also, two police vehicles have been permanently stationed along various roads near the embassy including Nyaya Marg," they added.

Earlier, there were about 120 police personnel during a 24-hour period for the security of these institutions.

"There is 24x7 patrolling to ensure smooth flow of traffic and traffic calming measures including speed breakers are in place," said sources while indicating that this level of security is by far the most that is provided to any embassy in New Delhi.
...
The US government has been voicing concerns over the security of their diplomatic personnel after India enforced strict reciprocity by removing the barricades as the US authorities opened the parking in front of the Indian embassy in Washington DC to general public and refused to reinstate it despite repeated requests.

"The US action has forced India to review these privileges to bring them strictly in line with reciprocity," the sources had said.
...

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby AniB » 02 Jan 2014 21:54

There may be a misconception that holding a green card (5 years) ensures US citizenship. Not so. Naturalization is a step that requires a subjective evaluation of ‘good character’. Any arrest, misdemeanor and certainly felony, would present ‘grave’ concerns. These are never struck off, or reduced. Interagency data base sharing means everything is stored.

Moderators please remove if OT.
Bhaiyon, please be very aware that posting comments on websites is becoming quite tricky. Here is the fine print for the Washington Post http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/interactivity/policy/discussion_policy.html. Several bullets under point 1 could be interpreted any which way. Also note that under point 7, they can 'distribute' your comment (to who?).

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 02 Jan 2014 21:56

So they added 30 more police or 150 more police? Really bad reporting where facts are muddled but speculations are given prominence.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby putnanja » 02 Jan 2014 23:32

They added 30 more police.

Why does the US need to have a school, bowling alley, commissary etc in India? And also the American center, which is just to spread US influence. Why should Indian tax payers support it by having extra policemen to guard it. Just ask the US to shut down their School, Commissary, American center etc. US doesn't give such benefits to other countries.

And I am pretty sure the US commissary is violating some tax rules by selling duty-free imports to other people. And if the US school is open to Indians and others for $20k per year, they ask them to either fully implement RTE, pay taxes on the fees etc, or shut down.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Sagar G » 02 Jan 2014 23:48

Among all the retaliatory actions suggested by BRFites how many have been actually implemented by GoI ???

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 03 Jan 2014 00:02

To add to what Cosmo_R and Matrimc posted (pp 199):
Yes, Preet Bharara is quite a rising star. Time magazine had him on cover (and counted him as one of the 100 influential people etc), he was adviser to Shumer and there is some talk about him being considered as a possible AG if Hilary Clinton runs etc. But I think he made a big blunder and at present I have little sympathy for him. He is smart and should have known better. And putting gasoline on fire with his press conference was not a smart thing to do.

(Even his supporters are sort of distancing themselves from him and he has only himself to blame -
Some are saying that he did not study the case very well, did not know about DK's advisory position in UN and came to know about details of the case only a few days prior to Dec 12 - but that is no excuse - there was no need for his arrogant press conference)

Ironically some say that he thought that most Indian Americans will not have too much sympathy with DK (as people complain about New York consulate as being very unfriendly etc) and he will become a hero for showing how tough he is by picking up on another big shot. I think he miscalculated big time, made a unforced blunder. (Chess analogy - I have seen even very good players make a blunder - they may still keep a brave face hoping that opponent may not realize the blunder. Some spectators may even think that it is not a blunder but some kind of a brilliant plot. The opponent should play calmly, no need to play risky moves and make a blunder of her/his own.. just play solid and safe game.)


To me the original complain (original is in WSJ blog - link give a some pages ago) looks very sloppy. Even if DK had no immunity, I don't think they have any case and most likely the Judge will throw the case out even before the case going to trial. With her status with UN, even her arrest may not be legal which may be enough reason for prosecutor to withdraw the case.

The important case, in my view, is (I hope) going to come later to check the abuse of power. If the arrest is illegal there is going to be civil suit(s) and criminal cases filed. Let us wait and see. (For example Biswas, (Indian Diplomat's daughter who was arrested by NYC) has sued NYC for 1.5 million dollars for unlawful arrest etc)

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 03 Jan 2014 00:13

From Time:
Khobragade Scandal: Why India Still Won’t Back Down
Excerpts:
Three weeks after the bilateral row began over the arrest of Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade in New York City, the dust has yet to settle on the wintery streets of New Delhi. People may have stopped burning images of President Barack Obama, but India’s front pages still carry news of the ongoing fallout, detailing the tense exchanges between the U.S. and India over the strip search and detention of India’s deputy consul general in New York City, who India says had immunity at the time of her arrest.

On Dec. 12, U.S. State Department agents arrested Khobragade outside her children’s school in New York City, after which she was strip-searched and detained before being released on bail. She has been charged with making false declarations on a visa application for her Indian domestic worker, and has allegedly broken U.S. law by paying her employee below the minimum wage, among other alleged infractions.

Khobragade has denied all of the charges. In a letter to colleagues after her arrest, she wrote that she “broke down many times as the indignities of repeated handcuffing, stripping and cavity searches, swabbing, holdup with common criminals and drug addicts were all being imposed upon me.”

U.S. officials have denied conducting a cavity search on the diplomat, and on Dec. 18, U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York Preet Bharara said in a statement that “Ms. Khobragade was accorded courtesies well beyond what other defendants, most of whom are American citizens, are accorded.” India claims, however, that because of Khobragade’s status at the time as an adviser to India’s U.N. mission, she was entitled to diplomatic immunity. On Dec. 30, a State Department deputy spokesperson said the government was “looking into it.”


The blowout has left Washington’s relationship with India on shaky and emotionally charged ground. New Delhi quickly retaliated with measures aimed at U.S. diplomats in India — among them the removal of traffic barriers outside the U.S. embassy in the Indian capital, restrictions on tax-free shipments and demands that the salaries of Indians employed by U.S. diplomatic staff be made public.

<snip>

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby RKumar » 03 Jan 2014 00:49

I see no contradiction in anything I've post. What I've said all along, is separate the diplo affair from the larger trade and strategic issues.


That is a interpretation, how each person interpret. unfortunately, these can't be isolated as at the end we all are human. If diplomats don't feel comfortable or have low trust during interaction with each other how they can discuss strategic issues?

1. When one talks of "US will lose one of the biggest consumer market in the world." It implies some sort of sanction against imports from the US. If this happens, India will lose the biggest consumer market. We exported ~$5bn in textiles to the US in the last year. China, Vietnam, Cambodia and many others will happily fill the void. The people in India most hurt would be lower income, women etc. On top of that we run a $7bn annual surplus with the US

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablo ... ed-picture

Not only will we get rapped by the WTO, confront penalties but also shoot our poorest workers in the process.


What WTO did, when US put us on the sanctions? Why WTO did not intervene when US hard press India regarding oil imports. WTO, UN, NATO, NSG all these groups are created and controlled by so called civilised first world countries. It is well known that at UN, USA bugs the diplomats room before important votes. What UN did, nothing because it Khan. US can make or break rules as per their wish. It is a way of corrupting the mind, let others feel culprit of breaking the rule. You have to create a counter rule to their and show it is the book. Like US is saying, our agencies worked as the law of book :mrgreen:

2. When one says " Few billions of earning + they can dictate their terms by not supplying spare parts when they want. Nothing short of blackmailing". To me, it seems like what the Russians have perfected as an art form.


I am also not a fan of Russia, but at least they don't interfere in our national issues and respect our diplomats. Lately they are learning few tips from Khan. But at the end of the day, we are our own. This time around, Russia will not put their weight behind us.

3. When one says "We are already commited to Sudan and may be other parts. They are pushing us hard, put our boots in other places also. I know it is not for US but still it is resources committed to UN (Which is still in hands of western countries).

I think you'll find that the constituency for this is within India, as a way to improve chances for a UNSC seat (which it won't) and at the Jawan-level because they can get generous allowances for UN work. FWIW, I think it's stupid for us to be in DRC, Sudan and other places. Let the Chinese deal with it.


Once we get UNSC seat, we don't have to put our boots. And we don't to accept every instruction. Completely agree let the Chinese deal with it.

4. When one says: Don't people get this simple fact no one is going to help us. We are our own!!" we all get it. The point is do we also want to make more enemies while we are at it?

This beat me completely, how come we are responsible for all this mess? Who was doing snooping on India? NSA or it was some Indian agency. Who is making enemies, is it US or India? Have we done something wrong at the first place? It is US, who should have thought of outcome of their actions.

5. "India and the US need each other" . The US needs India to help prevent PRC from acting in an unrestrained manner and picking off rivals one by one. India needs the US not only to prevent the PRC from upping the ante with us but also to help when we do get attacked. And, we are more likely to get attacked by the PRC than the US is—IOW, we need the US more than they need us. We are talking degrees of need so there is no contradiction.


In point 4, "we all get it that we are our own" and then again in point 5"India needs the US not only to prevent the PRC from upping the ante with us but also to help when we do get attacked.". I give up to your logic or thinking.

6. When one says " I NEVER SAID, take the relations to breaking point but slow down the pace." True in a literal sense. But, if the point about losing one of the biggest consumer markets still holds, it will take relations to the breaking point. Also, slowing the pace down to what? The IA has not bought a new gun since the Bofors (~28 years?).


How come US is the biggest consumer market? I already mentioned what is slow down from my point of view. I am not going to repeat same sentence for nth time.

7." Buy what is absolutely necessary and skip what we can develop our self in next decade + we can live without it. e.g. Chinook, we need those so lets go ahead and buy those. Lets go ahead with follow on orders of transport and navy planes. But kill all other deals." No one can argue with the first part. The second part beginning with Chinook, shows how divided we are: Singha in his post above says "
the chinook and apache are another two iffy purchases that fulfill no particularly urgent". Others want to kill C17s, C-130s. The only people who can make this call are the IA/IAF.


We also have different PoV. I have my own and Singha can have his own. I already mentioned why I want Chinook, C17, C-130. But all other military deals should be delayed for infinite time :mrgreen:

o repeat, I don't have any problem with respective MEA/DoS babus fighting each other over privileges or lack thereof. Nor do I have any problem with strictly enforced reciprocity for diplos. This is the one area where we can inflict maximum pain without hurting ourselves and it can be perfectly calibrated.
Silo the DK incident and fracas from the strategic relationship.
JMT


We can all blame Babus/MoD for deal delays, that is not part of this discussion. But I want to see GoI fight with tooth and nail until the end.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2014 00:57

People need to keep reminding that traffic barriers removal is not related to the DK arrest and custodial rape but in response to the opening up the parking lot near the Indian embassy making it vulnerable to truck/SUV bomb like in New York Times Square.
Indian embassies have been attacked in the past.

also its way above Preet Bharara pay grade. The whole charade started in June 2013 and moved across US govt departments and embassies. As I said earlier someone used his Quick Draw McDraw persona to fire at GOI. The whole chain (Uzra Zeya, Biswal to Preet Bharara) used was PIOs to fire at the GOI. Even DK has a PIO husband.

Maybe it was to disabuse any GOI thinking of relying on its diaspora?

Why is still unkown.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 03 Jan 2014 01:10

SSridhar wrote:
devesh wrote:all these reports claiming DoD is "unhappy" with the treatment of DK are appearing in Indian media. and none of them are accompanies with an official statement from a public source within the US Govt. all I keep reading is "an official said this". which is BS if they don't name the said official....<snip>

Completely agree. We have a tendency to imagine things in a way that we want it to happen and then misinterpret or even attribute meaning where none exists in the first place,.....

Of course, any report is just that, a report and it's truthfulness can be suspect. OTOH, I think it is also some what odd to disregard any report as a BS, simply because the no official was named. I don't think any sensible DoD (Us or India) personal will make any formal statement in such situation.s

In any case, FWIW, yesterday I happen to be talking with a close friend (I know the person for last 30+years)who is quite high up in US DoD, and in our talk DK's incident came up. Similar sentiments were expressed by him. Also around Christmas I witnessed a get together of Indian Navy officers hosted by their counter part and I don't think the FP report is BS. Most Americans, who are familiar with the case, are actually unhappy with this ugly incident. Why should anybody be surprised by this?

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby SwamyG » 03 Jan 2014 02:13

http://www.indiafacts.co.in/stopping-modi-at-all-costs/

I scanned the last few pages and did not see the above being posted. For some reason I thought one Gautam posted in this dhaaga....

A US decision has evidently reaffirmed that Narendra Modi cannot be allowed to become prime minister of India. This is similar to the verdict reached on the elected President of Egypt, Mohammed Morsi. The US simply did not trust him and the Muslim Brotherhood to keep their promises of good behaviour. It seems the conclusion was that Morsi had to be removed from power despite his firm crackdown on the interests of the Hamas in Egypt and emollient tone about other issues of concern to the US.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Sanku » 03 Jan 2014 02:34

Amber G. wrote: Why should anybody be surprised by this?


Because not a SINGLE statement or action by US at ANY level seems to suggest that they are in any shape or form repenting for the custodial rape of Indian diplomat on a forged set of accusations and any attempt to redress its actions of direct interference in Indian law and justice system, including complicity of US embassy in Delhi towards the crime of helping two bit low lives escape the due process of law.

So any claims of "people in US spoke thus" is at best a case of "jungle mein more nacha", at worst an attempt to dilute the severity of the matter by empty and non real statements.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby arshyam » 03 Jan 2014 04:00

sraj wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-2531363/

Double-standards-Indian-employees-US-missions-claim-paid-pittance

As a visa officer, the employee said he earned Rs 17,000 per month, a far cry from the Rs 1.55 lakh ($2,500) his American counterpart made, exclusive of allowances and a free house. {-- this is around one-tenth}



Is there an equal opportunity law in India? This would be a direct violation then. OTOH, if the US argues that it is US territory, then it is a violation of US law. Either way, this can be construed as a discriminatory practice.

A simple web search for Indian laws showed only this:

EQUAL REMUNERATION ACT, 1976

4. Duty of employer to pay equal remuneration to men and women workers for same work or work of a similar nature. --
(1) No employer shall pay to any worker, employed by him in an establishment or employment, remuneration, whether payable in cash or in kind, at rates less favourable than those at which remuneration is paid by him to the workers of the opposite sex in such establishment or employment for performing the same work or work of a similar nature.
(2) No employer shall, for the purpose of complying with the provisions of sub-section(1), reduce the rate of remuneration of any worker.
(3) Where, in an establishment or employment, the rates of remuneration payable before the commencement of this Act for men and women workers for the same work or work of a similar nature are different only on the ground of sex, then the higher (in cases where there are only two rates), or, as the case may be, the highest (in cases where there are only two rates), of such rates shall be the rate at which remuneration shall be payable, on and from such commencement, to such men and women workers:

Provided that nothing in this sub-section shall be deemed to entitle a worker to the revision of the rate of remuneration payable to him or her with reference to the servicerendered by him or her before the commencement of this Act.


A casual reading (I don't have any legal training whatsoever) sounds like this is meant to prevent gender based discrimination. Maybe some legal gurus on the forum can throw some light on whether this applies to discrimination between same gender employees (such as drivers, etc.). OTOH, visa clerks may be both men and women, so a (more straightforward) case can be built using the gender discrimination clause.

One security guard gets Rs 8,000 per month for an eight-hour daily shift {-- assuming 40 hours per week, no overtime, this works out to 70 cents per hour over 52 weeks}, which is way below what's specified in the [Indian Minimum Wages] Act.


The article does not say which act it refers to (state or centre), but the Delhi act provides for Rs. 311/day (unskilled) and Rs. 377/day (skilled). Taken straight for a 25 day work week (M-Sat), that translates into Rs. 7775/month (unskilled) and Rs. 9425/month (skilled). The article's quoted salary falls in between these numbers. My question is, would a security guard be a 'skilled' employee?
Source: http://www.paycheck.in/main/salary/minimumwages/delhi.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby arshyam » 03 Jan 2014 04:13

FWIW, here's the latest 'clarification'.

Embassy staff salary based on prevailing local wages: U.S.
The United States has said that the salary of its embassy staff in countries around the world is based on prevailing wages in conjunction with the local law.

“Generally, compensation plans for locally employed staff at US Missions abroad are based upon prevailing wage rates and compensation practices for corresponding types of positions in the employment locality,” a State Department Spokesperson said on Tuesday.

The spokesperson was responding to a question on whether the US Embassy complies with local wage laws.

The issue of salaries paid to employees in the US embassy and consulates in India came to the fore after senior Indian diplomat Devyani Khobragade was arrested in New York on December 12 on charges of making false declarations in a visa application for her maid Sangeeta Richard.

Subsequently, she was strip searched and held in jail with drug addicts and criminals which triggered a row between the US and India. Ms. Khobragade, 39, was released on a $ 250,000 bond.

Following the arrest of Ms. Khobragade, India has sought details of salaries of the Indians working at the American Embassy in New Delhi and its other diplomatic missions.

According to information available, Indian staff working at US Embassies, including cooks and drivers, are paid between an amount of Rs 12,000 to Rs 15,000 (USD 200 to 250) which is below the minimum wage of USD 9.47 per hour applicable in New York or in any other US city.

However, people close to the US embassy is of the opinion that despite current negative reporting in India, the embassy is generous in the matters related to compensation to local employees.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/embassy-st ... 525486.ece

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2014 04:49

Looks like the Indian reaction to the US arrest and maltreatment of the diplomat was unexpected. The call for inter agency review shows its a system accident.

There were quite a few moves going on.
Reducing GOI security in DC under the guise of reclaiming parking space could be a CBM for TSP in a prelude to 2014 draw-down. It was to assure them GOI wont have the exalted status in US eyes. As usual GOI was deer in the headlights response of do nothing in return immediately. Then Indian ambassador was pursuing cushy job at Brown Uty funded by India and ignored the situation.

Secondly there is a broad movement in US to reduce the Vienna Protocols to foreign diplomats to assert their primacy. See the SD narrowing the interpretation between embassy and consular personnel. The NYC is notorious for resentment against the UN and Consular personnel for traffic tickets etc.

Third US started the campaign against human trafficking as a way to regain lost moral stature after the Abu Ghraib excesses and other loss of prestige.

GOI appears to have been singled out as a convenient whipping boy to hang the charge of human trafficking on government officials and claim moral high ground for US among the NGOs and chatteratti.


What scuppered the game was the unexpected reaction in Indian public to the arrest and custodial rape of the female diplomat.

Looks like Uneven Cohen and his ilk did not understand the changed sensitivities in India after the Delhi Gang Rape and arrest of Tarun Tejpal.
And what made it even more egregious was the SD spokesperson talking smugly of standard operating procedures being followed by US marshals and sort of saying what you gonna do about it to India.

The US gave no honorable way out for the matter to be settled amicably.

An old Chinese saying says 'never corner a person for they will fight back!'
Applies to states also.

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Cosmo_R » 03 Jan 2014 05:30

@RKumar ^^^ : I am not going to bore the heck out of everyone else picayuning about this interpretation and that.

The only thing I wish to convey is that the proper and most effective response to this provocation is to enforce strict 'by the book' reciprocity on their diplos.

It does India no service to drag in unrelated stuff such as defense deals, boots on the ground in Africa or sanctioning imports from the US to express pique over the DK affair.

We want to/need to craft our response to the provocation at hand. That's it!

Everything else outside this very specific graduated response set works against our own self interest. Like it or not, for the next decade or so, the US is the only country that can give pause to PRCs dream of global domination. We need to slipstream behind the US to prevent PRC adventurism against us.

If that means we need the US more than they need us, so be it.

What it does not mean is being pitted against the PRC at the behest of the US. The PRC already wants us knocked down a peg or two. All one has to do is read the Global Times to see they are delighted by the spat.

For once, I must say, the MEA/PMO are playing it right: they increased the security cover at USEND by 30 cops to 150 while unblocking the road and moving forward on the reciprocity measures. They took away an issue that had the India supporters worried. Even the DoD people are now slowly (and astutely) making this out to be a DoS screwup. :)

I have no more to say on this. I assume, much to relief of fellow BRFites who detest antiphonal discourses.

Happy New Year!

JMT

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 03 Jan 2014 06:30

^^^ Thanks, very well put.
Happy New Year to you (and everyone) too.

US India relationship is not a zero sum game. Even with DK fiasco, as someone aptly put it, the ONLY capitals laughing are Islamabad and Beijing.

I think Indian reaction, till now, has been excellent. Any unnecessary rash, or risky move does not help India or US. Losers ought to be the rouge elements and not the people who want win-win in US, India relationship.

Another aspect, strictly following game theory is one I mentioned before .. The analogy of a Chess game. If some one makes a blunder, (as IMO DK's arrest and outrageous treatment to India Diplomat was). To best way to take advantage of the blunder is, as Capablanca said, not to make rash (or even complicated) moves of your own, just play sound and logical moves. You have a won game, why take chances by unnecessary thinking about complicated moves where if you mis-calculate you will give advantage back.

No need to find creative and risky ways to retaliate (like let us cancel the nuke deal - or this or that).


JMT

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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Postby Amber G. » 03 Jan 2014 06:46

(Watching recent visits by US delegations to India.. and how they are being received..)

Looks like Nisha Desai Biswal's first official visit to India is being postponed by State Department. :!:

(It was supposed to be on Jan 6th - but they are now saying that it may be pushed back by a week or so)

Most know that Meira Kumar, Rahul Gandhi, Narendra Modi and Shivshankar Menon, among others, called off their meetings with the US delegation a few weeks ago...

There is another high power meeting between US Energy Secretary (Ernest Moniz) and Indian officials, scheduled for January 15-16...


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