Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

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Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

Postby krisna » 05 Aug 2011 07:56

Last page of previous thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5999&start=2840

________________________________________________________-
The following links are background articles on Pakistan.

UNDERSTANDING PAKISTAN:


Jinnah's Pakistan: An Interview with MA Jinnah, and how the Pakistan of Yesterday is the Pakistan of Today
http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html

http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/012809Tellis.pdf

The above is the testimony of Ashley Tellis on Jan 28th 2009, to the US Senate Homeland Security Committee on LeT's global role. It is a good articulation of LeT's past and future trends.

Know Your Pakistan
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... /Shiv.html

The Monkey Trap: A synopsis of Indo-Pak relations
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... ayyam.html

PAKISTAN-FAILED STATE: an ebook that owes its origin and existence to BRF.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/EBOOKS/pfs.pdf

Whither Pakistan ? Growing Instability and Implications for India: an IDSA e-Book, July 2010
http://idsa.in/book/WhitherPakistan

A landmark article that demolishes myths built up about Pakistan
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers8/paper710.html

Pakistani Role in Terrorism Against the U.S.A
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... yanan.html

Pakistani Education, or how Pakistan became what it is: Curricula and textbooks in Pakistan
http://sdpi.org/sdpi-old/whats_new/repo ... tBooks.pdf

Making Enemies, Creating Conflict: Pakistan's Crises of State and Society. A book written by Pakistanis on Pakistan.
http://members.tripod.com/~no_nukes_sa/Contents.html

Should Pakistan Be Broken Up? by Gul Agha
http://pakistan70.tripod.com/gul.html

Alden Pyle in Pakistan, Part I
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2009/12/ald ... art-1.html

Prof. Walter Russell Mead, "Pakistan's Failed National Strategy"
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... -strategy/

"Pakistan Is", by Barry Bearak in New York Times Magazine, December 7, 2003.
Brings out succinctly various facets of Pakistani perfidy, obsession, fundamentalism etc.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... nted=print

PAKISTAN & TERRORISM:

The Ideologies of South Asian Jihadi Groups (Laskar-e-Taiba)
By Hussein Haqqani (journalist and Pak ambassador to US)
http://www.futureofmuslimworld.com/rese ... detail.asp

Lashkar-e-Taiba: Past Operations and Future Prospects, Stephen Tankel, April 2011
New America Foundation
http://newamerica.net/sites/newamerica. ... _LeT_0.pdf

Pakistani sponsoring of Terrorism
http://www.geocities.com/charcha_2000/
http://pak-terror.freeservers.com/Terro ... y_Tool.htm

Terror Map: The Pakistani Hand
http://sify.com/news/specials/terrormap/?vsv=TopHP1

Ethnic cleansing in Pakistan - a statistical analysis
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... idhar.html

A chronicle of genocide by the Pakistan army
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

Documentary video evidence of Pakistani genocide in Bangladesh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x-94U1bVUQ
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EBKlIUbpc ... re=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sMg9Ly9nK0g
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xwwPbkyZV ... re=related

Inside Jihad - How Pakistan sponsors terrorists in India
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/ ... r_sb1.html

Pakistan's Role in the Kashmir Insurgency - Op-ed by Rand's Peter Chalk
http://www.rand.org/hot/op-eds/090101JIR.html

Alden Pyle in Pakistan, Part II
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2009/12/ald ... -upon.html

BEYOND MADRASAS: ASSESSING THE LINKS BETWEEN EDUCATION AND MILITANCY IN PAKISTAN
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/ ... nthrop.pdf

Pakistani Military Officers' Links with Jihadist Organizations
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5587.htm

PAKISTAN TODAY:

On the Frontier of Apocalypse: Christopher Hitchens seminal article on Pakistan today
http://newsstuff.0catch.com/article5.htm

http://meaindia.nic.in/bestoftheweb/2002/10/14bow2.htm

A Slender Reed in Pakistan - Editorial in the Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p08s03-comv.html

Seymour Hersh Interview
http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_hersh.html

Pakistan's Nuclear Crimes (Wash. Post editorial)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy ... 2-2004Feb4

http://www.indiadefence.com/LOA07Aug04.htm

The Battle for Pakistan: Militancy and Conflict in Pakistan's Tribal Regions
http://counterterrorism.newamerica.net/ ... r_pakistan

BOOK REVIEW Fulcrum of Evil: ISI-CIA-Al Qaeda Nexus
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r1844.html

Article from Vinni Capelli - Foreign Policy Research Institute:
Containing Pakistan: Engaging the Raja-Mandala in South-Central Asia
http://www.fpri.org/orbis/5101/cappelli ... kistan.pdf

The videos are from this documentary: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/taliban/

A bomb at all cost By Ahmad Faruqui - a candid admission of the wars that Pakistan started against India.

Popular support for suicide bombings in pakistan.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 008_pg12_1
Survey by university students in karachi say 50% of respondents support suicide bombings in kashmir.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OWsmJIwe9Q4
"Descent into Chaos"
UC Berkeley Conversations with History, host Harry Kreisler talking with Pakistani Journalist Ahmed Rashid. 59 minutes 120 MB. It sums up Pakistan and lays bare all Pakistan's terrorist support and proliferation activities. **Note - he wants the US to solve Pakistan's Kashmir problem.

Pakistan on the brink: Video Link (must download)


MISCELLANEOUS

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto telling Bangladeshis to "Go to Hell": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dsxfyxa ... re=related

IDSA's weekly summary of Pak Urdu Press:

http://www.idsa.in/pup
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Five installment series by Kapil Komireddi published in Frum Forum

Part I. Nov 16, 2009. “Pakistan In Crisis”.

Part II. Nov 18. 2009. “Pakistan: Origins of A Failed State”.

Part III. Nov 18, 2009. “Pakistan: It Could Not Succeed Unless India Failed”.

Part IV. Dec 06, 2009. “Pakistan: A Mecca for Radical Islam”.

Part V. Dec. 07, 2009. “Pakistan’s Army: Building a Nation for Jihad

A perceptive blog on Pakistan: http://pak-watch.blogspot.com/

Declassified documents from US National Archives on Pakistan:

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/pakistan/pakistan.htm
_______________________________________________

Admission of state sponsored terrorism by Pakistani authorities


see this Der Spigel Interview where Musharraf admits to that.

On 7th Nov in TimesNow Channel, Tasneem Noorani, a former Secretary of the Pakistani Interior Ministry, openly said that.

Kiyani called the Haqqanis as strategic assets.

In Dec. 2008, President Zardari himself admitted to ISI helping LeT. He said,"The links between the Inter-Services Intelligence Agency and the LeT were developed in the old days when dictators used to run the country. After the 9/11 terror attacks in the US, things have changed to a great extent"

In an address to bureaucrats in July 2009, President Zardari said: "Militants and extremists were deliberately created and nurtured as a policy to achieve some short-term tactical objectives. Let us be truthful to ourselves and make a candid admission of the realities. The terrorists of today were the heroes of yesteryears until 9/11 occurred and they began to haunt us as well"

In Nov. 2009, Prime Minister Gilani admitted to the support for terrorism by Musharraf as "running with the hares and hunting with the hounds".

When Bush warned the Pakistanis in August 2008 of their support to Al Qaeda, Afrasiab Khattak, President of Awami National Party (ANP) said this: "The question is why it has taken the Americans so long to see what the ISI is doing. We’ve been telling them for years but they wouldn’t buy it.". See here.

In an interview to the BBC as far back as on Feb. 13, 1994, Benazir Bhutto admitted how she handed over to Rajiv Gandhi the complete list of Sikh activists colluding with the ISI in terrorism in the Punjab. Later, Nawaz Sharif described this interview as a faux pas.

Apart from these, of course, numerous Pakistani commentators, analysts, and editors have openly admitted to terror as a state policy.

________________________________________________________________________

A Venn diagram, by Shiv, to illustrate the commonality and difference between "bad Taliban" and Jinnah's Pakistan.


________________________________________________________________________

Why Did Pakistan's Spy Chief Make a Secret Trip to China?
Pasha's China trip has been interpreted by some as a tacit act of defiance—a reminder to his American counterparts that the Pakistanis can always look east to their “all-weather” friend across the Himalayas rather than bend the knee to the will of the U.S.

But it also may be a sign of China's growing disquiet with Pakistan. Another top-ranking Pakistani military officer, Lt. Gen Wahid Arshad, had already conducted a considerable tour of China just weeks ago in a bid to improve ties. A few analysts have suggested that Pasha's trip — couched in vague terms about building a “broad-based strategic dialogue” — may have been less a visit and more of a summons.

Chinese officials claimed the attacks in Kashgar were authored by the shadowy East Turkestan Islamic Movement, a jihadist organization of mostly ethnic Uighurs, a Turkic Muslim minority that comprises the majority in the far-western Chinese region of Xinjiang. China routinely invokes the specter of the terrorist threat when cracking down on dissent in the restive region. Yet disturbances there tend to be triggered more often by social discontent — many Uighurs chafe at state policies they deem discriminatory and marginalizing — than militant connivance. Pasha's presence in Beijing may mark Beijing's continued efforts to root out Uighur dissidents and sympathizers beyond China's borders, as it has already done in Kazakhstan.
Last edited by SSridhar on 29 Aug 2011 10:06, edited 8 times in total.
Reason: Please add a link to the previous thread when starting a new one.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby jamwal » 05 Aug 2011 10:12

Duplicate Post
Last edited by jamwal on 05 Aug 2011 10:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby jamwal » 05 Aug 2011 10:13

Hari Seldon wrote:Humiliating comedown apart, I'm concerned India will unwittingly help prop up Pak by trading with them. Aak-thoo. Demand transit rights to Afgn & CAR as part & parcel of the open trade deal, I say!


Through Pakistan for what ? Just to get our vehicles burnt like NATO ? :lol:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Sri » 05 Aug 2011 11:44

Trade in Pakistan is No problem as long as we manage a surplus. Otherwise no fun in it.

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Postby ArmenT » 05 Aug 2011 11:56

^^^
That should be pretty easy to achieve, considering that there is actually demand for Indian manufactured goods on the Paki side. The reverse is not true however.

Not only Bollywood movies, the Pakis have got the idea that stuff like Rooh Afza, soaps, medicines, tyres, soft drinks, cement, cars etc. which are made in India are higher quality than Pakistan made items, even if they are the same brand, made by the same multinational! There is actually demand for Indian goods on the other side and many of these are already on sale at Paki black markets.

Now if anyone goes to an Indian black market like Burma Bazaar, none of the shops have ever had anything for sale from Pakistan. If anything, they have a lot of Japanese goods imported from Malaysia or Singapore. If India is interested in anything from Pakistan, it is only raw materials and agricultural produce (dry fruits, vegetables, sugarcane etc.)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Lisa » 05 Aug 2011 12:07

IMHO. What the feudal landlords and generals wish to do in pakistan vis-à-
vis screwing their economy should not really concern us. Any trade with
India will first and foremost assist an average pakistani saving money and
even at a minuscule level driving some efficiency into his economy with
the saved penny.

This is definitely not in our interest. Adding cost, enhancing inefficiency
and constricting growth is what we must assist pakistan with for any
improvement in their lot will inevitably be contrary to our interests as they
will use it against us.

More importantly, if push ever come to shove almost every Indian exporter
with a market in pakistan will align himself with WKKism. Correct?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Aug 2011 12:11

i am coming to the conclusion that the window for pakistan to have a controlled soft landing has closed. now on, there can only be a catastrophic meltdown of the state, society and polity and something new will have to be built from the ashes. there will be a major crisis one way or another

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Sri » 05 Aug 2011 15:08

Lisa wrote:IMHO. What the feudal landlords and generals wish to do in pakistan vis-à-
vis screwing their economy should not really concern us. Any trade with
India will first and foremost assist an average pakistani saving money and
even at a minuscule level driving some efficiency into his economy with
the saved penny.

This is definitely not in our interest. Adding cost, enhancing inefficiency
and constricting growth is what we must assist pakistan with for any
improvement in their lot will inevitably be contrary to our interests as they
will use it against us.

More importantly, if push ever come to shove almost every Indian exporter
with a market in pakistan will align himself with WKKism. Correct?


That's why I am insisting on a surplus scenario. We must strive to have a substantial surplus and insist on Dollar to dollar settlement. Say if the trade hits $3bn the first year and we manage a $1bn surplus, that means a good amount of their foreign reserves from Pakistan will actually land here. Right now it's going somewhere else anyways....

Trade is good in general if you maintain surplus...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby SSridhar » 05 Aug 2011 15:31

Lisa has valid points. The objective of Pakistan is very clear. Hina Rabbani Khar is there as FM for a specific purpose. To mount a charm offensive, not only with India, but with others as well. With India specifically, Pakistan has already decided to give MFN status and only a formal announcement is to be made. We should recall that when the Indian Foreign Secretary visited Islamabad this June, Kayani gave a speech at PMA, Kakul and said "nation’s honour should not be traded only for prosperity." I thought he was warning the civilian government from giving MFN status to India. He might have also meant the US (or both India and the US) but I thought it was a reference to India. Normally, PMA speeches to gentlemen cadets are loaded with aphorisms on India because the idea of revenge has to be instilled in fresh recruits. Certainly, the MFN status could not have come without PA's approval. If PA today has turned about in slightly over a month's time, there is something else seriously wrong that the PA feels compelled to seek adjustments with the arch enemy, even if only temporarily.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby krisna » 05 Aug 2011 15:59

^^^^
previously TSPA /RAPES were against giving MFN to India. Now what has changed the stance.
The only things I can think of – If TSPA agreed to it then it is a worsened sign for TSPA sake.
Deteriorating economic conditions-
3.5 friends getting tougher on TSPA not getting easy money/alms etc. for free or thru’ IMF etc.
Not winning any quotas in oiropean markets
Floods having an impact- recall feudal lords with large tracts of land poor electricity
Soossai bummers violent clashes poor industrialization no increased productivity internally displaced peoples etc.

The above are all well known.
But what takes the cake is – the whole conditions are biting the RAPE/TSPA class also in their musharraf.
Slowly but surely the tightening economic crisis is what making them open to MFN with India. Now India though is kaffir, they can exercise taqqiyya till economic conditions stabilize with India’s help. It is a delicate balance.
Previously they used to laugh at our MFN proposal knowing that 3.5 friends would bail them out. Though aam pakiabduls used to suffer because of increased prices in black market for Indian goods purchased thru’ dubai RAPES were relatively immune.

The questions now is for how long TSPA will give MFN status to kuffr nation, how will aam pakiabduls look at this new status.
In the short run it will embolden the RAPES to tighten their economic hold on the populace. once that happens they will rescind the MFN status. They will avoid long term MFN status IMO as it will benefit the common folks there.

JMTs
--
edited- thanks SS
Last edited by krisna on 05 Aug 2011 17:27, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby SSridhar » 05 Aug 2011 16:53

krisna wrote:It could be a shot in the arm for other small countries in saarc comity who will be seeing this. India should seize this and enter into local agreements/saarc and enhance trade and commerce with our smaller neighbours.

krisna, the SAARC regulations require each member to bestow MFN on the other members. It has happened a long time back among others. Pakistan was the only exception. The only reason it has been obstinate about this is because of its thinking that the term 'Most Favoured Nation' would blunt the enmity & hatred for India among the Abduls.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby A_Gupta » 05 Aug 2011 16:56


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shiv » 05 Aug 2011 17:14

If you look at the figures for smuggling between India and Pakistan and "unofficial trade" it runs into a huge figure. Pakiatan, I believe is an importer of lots of Indian stuff from automobile parts, tyres and drugs. Smuggling benefits smugglers - with D company at the top, and the Paki government has naturally been reluctant to kill the golden goose that ensures that the wrong set of people make a handsome profit.

There are Indians who lose out from ths smuggling. It is far better to have a system in place that allows trade with Pakistan.

In some ways the Pakistani elite have us fooled. They invoke ideology to stop legal transactions with India while a few elites benefit from illegal transaction. We fall for this ideological excuse and put up a rigid ideology of our own and refuse trade with Pakistan only to our detriment.

Imagine a situation in which Rajasthan stopped trading with Gujarat. That would not stop trade. It would only encourage illegal channels. The goods would get through via alternate channels where other middlemen would make money. So for example if an Indian company were able to sell pain killers to Pakistan because of low Indian prices, the price advantage would go to China because of the need to have a midddleman smuggle the drug.

I have already mentioned how, in the last thread, hoarders and feudal lords in Pakistan would oppose free trade because lower Indian prices would kill their ability to hoard and fix prices in Pakistan.

The other striking thing that I think people are missing is the striking similarity betwen Pakistan and India in terms of ordinary day to day objects. For example the moulded cement kerb stones which appeared in India in the last 10 years are the same in Pakistan. There is some foreign/third party company that is selling the moulds/machinery to both countries. Pakistan has Maruti Alto and Maruti Omni cars under some other name.. A third party is making profits from Pakistan - possibly even sourcing from India because of lack of a trade agreement.

Bollywood movies are a significant export from India. I betcha not a single penny comes from Pakhanastan despite Bollywood's popularity because the whole thing is in the hands of the mafia. And teh mafia are in cahooots with the Pakistani elite/army/establishment/feudals.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby krisna » 05 Aug 2011 17:22

-deleted-

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby SSridhar » 05 Aug 2011 17:33

Altaf's question
Mr Hussain said that since the government has failed to stop the ongoing violence, the army and Rangers should come forward to protect the lives of innocent people. “What should the Muhajirs do now? Should they go back [to India]? If a 1992-like operation is started again, will the Indian leaders provide accommodation to 50 million Muhajirs of Pakistan?” asked the MQM chief.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shiv » 05 Aug 2011 17:39

For Pakistan, trading with India would be drinking from a poisoned chalice.

For example - prices of commodities like foodgrains would stabilize in Pakistan, but profiteering would be reduced. It is the hoarders and profit makers who are worried about free trade in Pakistan. If a period of free trade is allowed and then stopped - prices once again would be destabillized in Pakistan. At that time it would be impossible to the local authorities in Pakistan to resist demands that trade with India should be re established because of the stabilizing effect on prices.

For the Paki army, that requires the support of a rabid anti-India population free trade that would make Pakis addicted to the Indian trade drug would be a terrible blow. Kiyani is no ideologue. He like his mullah brothers are crooks.
Last edited by shiv on 05 Aug 2011 18:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Nandu » 05 Aug 2011 17:46

Shashi Tharoor's rejoinder to Ejaz and Marvi.
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/columnis ... -delusions

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Aug 2011 17:54

tharoor's article will have just doubled the ISI watch on marvi :)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby gakakkad » 05 Aug 2011 18:25

x post from the HALLALLED TSP thread-

sidharth wrote:If I wont be crucified in BRF, I would suggest following the weekly publications by Lyndon LaRouche. This gentleman, whatever his orientation be (Strongly Anti-British and Anti Obama), is probably among the most knowledged on current global politics. I believe he may be right when he quotes that Pakistan for long has been a British run operation. May be well into the 90's. Americans too had a share in the pie. Please read this article where the executive director of United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) is on record stating the importance of Afghan drug empire for the survival of Wall Street and London Financial houses. As you may know the the Afghan poppy cultivation/harvesting grew several folds once Taliban was ousted and British/Khan armies took over.


Anyone who has ever attended an American ER knows that drug addiction is a very important problem in Khanland. It is quite often that we get a cerebral haemorrhage or Myocardial Infarct young patient due to cocaine overdose. Even more common is an unconscious patient with respiratory depression due to opium/heroin overdose. This is in spite of the much publicised powerful x-ray scanning of all the luggage that is shipped from overseas. It seems truly plausible that the military industrial complex and wall street are responsible for the problem. I am ready to believe it. What I am interested in is the interface of the Talibani's with the wall street devils. ie how do the stalwarts of the "Anglo-american empire" get in touch with the yahoos. The mexican drug lord might be an obvious thought. But are these powerful enough to operate in Af/Pak and liaise with the ISI and co? DEA has been abnormally powerful these days. Some say its a parallel intelligence agency as powerful as the CIA. Could the racket flourish under the aegis of ISI-DEA nexus ?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Suppiah » 05 Aug 2011 18:51

If TSP gives MFN to India we should encourage the import of furniture and rice and other vegetables from TSP. For one the furniture is of good quality as I have seen in shops in ME, the other it reduces TSP's tree cover. Importing rice is just importing water, only much easier to transport..we can divert to other crops that save water..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Shaashtanga » 05 Aug 2011 19:30

Not sure if this one was posted before, in this clip back from May (after OBL raid), Cole-bare is talking to Richard Haass, at one point Cole-bare suggests why doesn't US withdraw its 100k troops out of Afg and on their way out clean up the mess in Pak, to that Richard replies with the usual "country of 170million" crap etc. Richard Haass's answer sums up US administration frame of mind against Pak, they can't even carpet bomb Pak for the fear of agitating Poakroaches round the globe and more terror attacks against the US. Never in the history of human civilization there has been a nation as vile & whorish like the pakhanastan. Even the erstwhile Nazi Germany was better from the perspective that they didn't have any hidden agenda, this excuse of a nation called Pakhanastan is a whore living on alms and biting the same hand that feeds it and the stupid hand that feeds it continues feeding it from the fear of being bitten by the rabies & AIDS ridden whore.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby ramana » 05 Aug 2011 19:46

Suppiah wrote:
If TSP gives MFN to India we should encourage the import of furniture and rice and other vegetables from TSP. For one the furniture is of good quality as I have seen in shops in ME, the other it reduces TSP's tree cover. Importing rice is just importing water, only much easier to transport..we can divert to other crops that save water..



I guess you need to read Peregrine's classic post on rice with miceschidt!!!

Someone please post it here for old times sake.
----------

Thanks Lalmohan

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Aug 2011 19:47

miceschidt

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby A_Gupta » 05 Aug 2011 19:51

I would guess that smuggling helps employ and fund the criminal-terrorist nexus that plagues India; legalizing the trade cuts out the criminal middleman and would work in favor of India's security interests.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Lalmohan » 05 Aug 2011 19:53

why dont we give a supari to jaggu pehelwan against hafiz saeed?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shiv » 05 Aug 2011 20:01

Suppiah wrote:If TSP gives MFN to India we should encourage the import of furniture and rice and other vegetables from TSP. For one the furniture is of good quality as I have seen in shops in ME, the other it reduces TSP's tree cover. Importing rice is just importing water, only much easier to transport..we can divert to other crops that save water..


reduces tree cover !! :rotfl:

The structure of feudal farming is that the landowner gets all the produce to sell while the tiller/sharecroper get a pittance if they get anything at all. In Pakistan the landowner is the member of "parliament" and his brother/son is the major/colonel/sq ldr.

Drought or bumper harvest the landowner has plenty of food for himself. There is also grain available at subsidized rates for army from army farms who are doing pretty much the same thing. In times of plenty will hoard to create artificial scarcity and raise prices. At a time of drought he will sell his hoard at extortionate prices. In either case he will be paying his tribute/agriculture tax to the Jamaat ud Dawa. In other words an artificial scarcity is created when there is a good harvest, and the hoarded stuff is sold at high prices at the time of real scarcity. The tillers and workers get some payment when there is plenty and get nothing at a time of scarcity. This is how Pakistani farming works and the profits help the Pakistani state at the expense of mango Abdul.

This is how trade with India will affect these guys. If there is a bumper crop any attempt at hoarding and raising prices artificially will price them out of the export market. At the time of scarcity, they will not be able to sell hoarded grain because cheaper imports will be available.

Is it surprising that the Army and army personnel who own a large proportion of agricultural land opposes trade with India?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby ramana » 05 Aug 2011 20:05

Nandu wrote:Shashi Tharoor's rejoinder to Ejaz and Marvi.
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/columnis ... -delusions



Very good article by Shashi Tharoor. I like his return to Indic roots and dropping the fake secularism.

Welcome back Tharoor!

BTW the Paki response to the three Indian op-ed writers whos the paranoia/delusions they have about India. They will harden their stance and support centralization if the comments come from India. Hence the best policy is 'benign neglect' and let them stew in their own pi**.

BTW its good that Nitin Pai is getting attention from across the borders!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby ramana » 05 Aug 2011 20:12

A_Gupta wrote:Polaris smacks down UnFair:
http://polaris.nationalinterest.in/2011 ... -night-ii/


The BLA most likely has massa support based on the envoy talking to Baloch leaders etc..

Unfair is trying to pin it on India to feed the Paki paranoia.

Both Hillary and 10% (half of PBUH cut) are trying to implicate India while they know who is behind all this.

MMS already said bring it on at Sharm-el-Sheikh to TSP since he knows there is no Indian hand there.

Its all "lapso calami and suggesto falci"* by US elite.

* Slip of the tongue and false suggestions.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shiv » 05 Aug 2011 20:13

One cautionary note. "Free trade" with Pakistan with "MFN" and all that has to be watched with great care. It's not all milk and roses. There is plenty of scope for golmaal and it may come back and hit us in the face. But it has some benefits that must be squeezed, while not allowing misuse.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby BijuShet » 05 Aug 2011 20:29

ramana wrote:I guess you need to read Peregrine's classic post on rice with miceschidt!!!

Someone please post it here for old times sake.
----------

Thanks Lalmohan


Meantime here with problems encountered by Importers of Pakistani Basmati Rice :
From : --- und --- Gmbh
Wunterstrasse
Hamburg 03

22 September 2003

To : H*n*sty Trading Co. Limited
**, Shera Faisal,
Karatchi.

Fur Attention auf : Hadji Laka Mauda Khan und Hadji Chadder Mode Ahmed

Dear Sir,

Re : Bill auf Lading 2125 KHI-HMB / 03-July-2003

It is mit great pain und frustration zat vee are forced to make zis complaint fur your immediate action.

We received zee 500 Metric Tons of Bagged Pakistani Basmati Rice in zee 25 Containers mentioned in zee Bill auf Lading.

However, on opening zee bags for further packaging vee find zat efry one of zee bags has zee rice mixt mit mice schidt.

Der rice vas gutt enuff but der mice schidt schpoils der trade. Ve order kleen rice and you schipt mice schidt mit der rice. We did not see der mice schidt in der sample vich you sent us.

We put up our original Kontract auf 25 May 2003, unzer vich zis konsignment of Pakistani Basmati Rice mixt mit mice schidt has been shipped to us, to our legal department.

Our Legal Department advises zat zair is nusing mentioned zairin by vich zee Rice vee receive must to be mixt mit mice schidt.

We have zen proceeded to employ very costly German Labourmen und labourvemen to separate zee rice from zee mice schidt vich it is mixt mit.

We now haf zee Rice in Separate Bags und zee Mice Schidt in zee other separate bags.

Pleaz advise if vee should :

Keep zee rice vich vee haf paid for und return to you zee mice schidt vich we haf not paid for.

or

Keep zee mice schidt vich vee haf not paid for und return to you zee rice vich vee haf paid for und you will return to us zee money vich vee haf paid you for zee rice wizout mixing mit zee mice schidt.

or

Mix zee rice mit zee mice schidt vich is now in separate bags und return zee whole schiting lot to you und you will return to us zee money vich vee haf paid you for zee rice wizout mixing mit mice schidt.

Pleaz tell us vaat to do as vee vant to do rite in zis matter but ve do not like ziss mice schidt bisniss.

Yours Sincerely

Hans Grubber Von Schlong-Zwei Nuttenberg

Copy : ------- und -------- Gmbh, Hamburg

Copy : ------- Grain Brokers Ltd., London

Copy : ----Association, London

Cheers

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby KLNMurthy » 05 Aug 2011 20:45

Nandu wrote:Shashi Tharoor's rejoinder to Ejaz and Marvi.
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/columnis ... -delusions

Ejaz Haider is right and Tharoor is missing the point. By exhibiting an overweening, allegedly benign concern about TSP's best interests, Tharoor is being intrusive. As an Indian MP and intellectual, he should be focussing on shaping India's attitude to TSP.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Suppiah » 05 Aug 2011 20:45

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby BijuShet » 05 Aug 2011 20:55

Opinion piece in The News (by a TSP member of parliament)
Opinion Sector commanders on the defensive
Ayaz Amir
Friday, August 05, 2011


With increasing desperation they are watching this drama unfold and their anger only grows because they don’t know how to respond. What is happening is new for them, outside the range of their vast experience.

The sector commanders, lords of Karachi for so long and still a formidable force to reckon with, have withstood army operations. They have a measure of the Rangers and the Frontier Constabulary. The Karachi police holds no threat for them.

True, the Karachi police, under Shoaib Suddle’s command, was the sword arm of Gen Babar’s anti-MQM operation in 1995. But when the tables were turned and Benazir Bhutto’s second government was turfed out by President Leghari, backed by Gen Jahangir Karamat and perpetually-angry Chief Justice Sajjad Ali Shah, some of the police officers who had distinguished themselves in that operation were discovered thereafter in gunny bags....not just with a shot to the head but their bodies bearing the marks of brutal torture.

Waziristan’s killing fields may be more crude – God’s own warriors using knives, often in the hands of barely-grown boys, on the throats of their victims – but Karachi’s killing fields are no less chilling, the drill machine emerging as the leading symbol of enforcement and terror.


If the army, foolish enough to forget the lessons of the past, were to move in, the sector commanders would know how to deal with it, simply melting away into the urban jungle which Karachi is, and hiding their arms caches. Deweaponising Karachi is a pipedream, easier said than done. A surface calm would return to Karachi but in essentials nothing would change.

What is happening now is completely different: various civilian militias are being encouraged to snipe at the flanks and hit at vulnerable points. The ANP is part of this covert mobilisation, as are Lyari and other gangs, and even, if rumour is to be believed, remnants of the routed Haqiqi, the MQM’s splinter faction, once promoted by the ISI, the bare mention of whose name is enough to set the MQM on edge.

The sector commanders have been used to two things: either outright operations against them, whether by the Rangers or the army; or governments in Islamabad and Karachi capitulating before their demands and currying favour with their leadership. But a combination of smooth words and the guerrilla warfare we are seeing, whose victims for the most part are innocent souls, hapless day labourers and the like, is something for which they have not been trained.

We can be reasonably sure that Liddel Hart’s ‘Strategy, the Indirect Approach’ is available neither in the presidency nor the prime minister’s house, their denizens having better things to do. But in Karachi what we are seeing is the indirect approach in action.

We can attach whatever value judgment we like to this happening. We can condemn its callousness and spin-off brutality. We can shed tears and cry over the victims whose fate, such is the way of the world, we really don’t care about. But this takes away nothing from the central reality, which is the power struggle, the battle for turf and entitlement, the right to become kings of some of the richest real estate in the country, taking place in a city once of lights, now of darkness and unrelieved despair.

Karachi is several cities and its richer and poorer parts do not meet. When revolution broke out in Russia in 1917, with the storming of the Winter Palace in St Petersburg, the theatres were open, ballet and opera performances were taking place, and well-heeled ladies went about in their costliest furs. (The street-walkers too were conducting their business.) As killings occur on a regular basis in the lumpen, outlying areas of Karachi, where the less-privileged eke out their precarious living, we can be certain that the lunch routine at the Sindh Club, or the Gymkhana for that matter, is not disturbed. Nor the determined partying at night in the richer parts of town.

Determined because, as Pakistanis, we bring a grim determination to our pleasures. To see Pakistanis imbibing, as if tomorrow will never come, is a sentimental education in itself. We have to thank prohibition for this enthusiasm.

Perish the thought, however, that the wages of social constriction will ever be re-examined. That’s just not the Pakistani way. With soldiers it is a maxim, never to reinforce failure. With us it is almost a national motto to reinforce failure all the time. Call it a special kinship with failed experiments.

(Incidentally, when the Winter Palace was stormed, the Tsar’s cellars were broken open by eager rioters. John Reed in his classic account of the Bolshevik Revolution ‘Ten days that shook the world’ informs us that some of the best wine in the world, vintage produce of years past – after all, those were the Tsarist cellars – flowed like water, leaving champions of the proletariat for days on end rolling in the gutters.)

The sector commanders are taking their cue from their top leadership. In years gone by the undisputed Quaid of Karachi’s discontent would have declared all-out war and brought the government, any government, to its knees. But it is a measure of the changed situation in Karachi, the ebb and flow of the new indirect approach we are seeing, that he is being alternately hot and cautious, not quite able to suppress his anger in his latest telephonic addresses to the party faithful gathered in Azizabad – the faithful not looking too excited as they take in these extended speeches, but then, as an outsider, I could be mistaken – but not altogether forsaking the language of peace and friendship.

True, the faithful have been called upon to stock up on rations for a month, which is reminiscent of the famous call given all those years ago to the people of Karachi to sell their television sets and buy guns instead. But the overall impression remains one of caution, as indeed befits a leader of the Supreme Guide’s experience and standing, because too much is at stake for the MQM to risk an all-out resort to arms.

The strategic equation has changed, not just in Karachi but across the country. Time was when in the list of enemies as prepared in the command headquarters of our strategic grandmasters, if India was at the top the PPP and Benazir Bhutto came a close second. In the domestic arena the guardians of security and ideology supported rightwing political alliances, while in Karachi they propped up Karachi’s largest party, rendering it virtually invincible.

Gen Asif Nawaz’s Karachi operation and later Gen Naseerullah Babar’s onslaught cut this strategic knot asunder. Especially after Babar, Karachi’s majoritarians were on the back-foot, licking their wounds and counting their losses. But Musharraf’s ascent to power was a godsend for them. In return for their support the Haqiqi faction (heretics) were ousted from their Landhi and Korangi strongholds and the keys of the city, so to speak, were handed over by Musharraf’s henchmen to the majoritarians.

Small wonder, for the MQM the Musharraf period were the golden years. Its leaders were masters of all they surveyed and none dared challenge their power.

Zardari had to abide by the terms of this reality when he arrived on the scene. Lacking a majority in the National Assembly he needed the MQM’s support, without which he could not have formed the government at the centre. So cosy was this developing relationship that Altaf Hussein was the first leader across the country to propose Zardari’s name as president. (It may not be out of place to wonder what he may be thinking of his impetuosity now.)

The alliance with the Q-League freed Zardari from the MQM’s yoke, the necessity of keeping it always in good humour. This factor, above all, has been the catalyst setting in motion the new, dangerous dynamic on display in Karachi.

Still, like it or not, it is political forces which have to bring stability to Karachi. There is no other way, no other solution, the army certainly being no solution. From the Indian border to Waziristan it is over-extended. Even otherwise, it has no magic wand to settle the woes of Karachi. It remains to be seen what miracles the politicians, left to their own devices as they have been by fate and circumstances, can bring about.

Email: winlust@yahoo.com

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby CRamS » 05 Aug 2011 21:02

ramana wrote:Shashi Tharoor's rejoinder to Ejaz and Marvi.
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/columnis ... -delusions


Very good article by Shashi Tharoor. I like his return to Indic roots and dropping the fake secularism.

Welcome back Tharoor!



BossGaru, I agree overall good job by Tharoor, but I do feel he is way too soft or there is fake attempt to be too nice. For example, he did not refute JIhadi Haider's crap about India being a revisionist power. And then his whole riposte is about what is good for TSP. I don't give a crap. I want him to focus on what is good for India.


But — and alas, there is a but — I don’t believe it’s in Pakistan’s best interest to be the country whose military consumes the largest percentage of national resources (both GDP and annual budget) of any military in the world.



This is nTSP's internal matter, none of India's business and let TSP stew under military rule if they choose to


I don’t believe it’s in Pakistan’s best interest to adopt a policy of seeking “strategic depth” by destabilising its neighbours.



Once again why make the argument on what is in TSP's interests. Majority of TSPians do believe that "good Taliban" and pigLeTs work in their national interests. This is pleading for peace. Rather, the argument must be that there is a price to pay if TSP persists with this criminal policy of using terror as an instrument of state policy.


I don’t believe it’s in Pakistan’s best interest to try to wrest Kashmir from India by financing or arming violent militancy.



Tharoor looses the plot here. The standard RAPE response to this will be that the "core issue" is hurting India as well, and they will reel off the 10^6 troops, rape, pillage etc etc nonsense. And they will add that the solution as the world's largest democarcy is to give KMs their right of self determination and everybody lives happily ever after. At the very least Tharorr should have pointed out why Kashmir is India's crown jewel, and TSP is figting a futile battle. Something along these lines.


I don’t believe it’s in Pakistan’s best interest to be the cradle and crucible of militant Islamist terrorism. I don’t believe it’s in Pakistan’s best interest to be a country where no elected civilian government has ever served a full term. And I do believe that any Pakistani liberal worth the name (take a bow, Marvi Sirmed) should have no difficulty in agreeing with any of these propositions.



Once again, too TSP centric. Standard RAPE response will be you have Bal Thackeray, RSS, col ProHit etc. And they will add that unlike in India where "Hindu extremiost" BJP was voted to power, Isalmic extremists in TSP have never won any election. Instead Tharoor should have re-iterated that TSP use of terror as an instrument of state policy is unacceptable, thats it.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shiv » 05 Aug 2011 21:32

Tharoor has done one good thing - he has called out the fraudulent "liberals" of Pakistan. It is the Pakistani liberals who ingratiate themselves with the west and even today sound oh so moderate even as they ignore the worst Islamist excesses of Pakistan

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby ramana » 05 Aug 2011 21:35

Thanks, Bijushet for the Peregrine article.

shiv, Scratch a Paki liberal you will find a jihadi!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby GeorgeM » 05 Aug 2011 22:59

sanjeevpunj wrote:Me not a mallu, but can you translate that for others please? I am guessing it is "Time is nearing,time is nearing,time to go......" ?

Vasavadatta, a courtesan and whore is attracted to a handsome Buddhist Monk. She invites him over to join her but the monk refuses saying "it not yet time" (Samayamaayilla..). But time passes on and she has many lovers. One day she kills one of her lover, a powerfull man, to satisfy another. She is caught for the crime and the king orders her ears, nose and fingers to be cut off for a slow death. She lays bleeding with only her 'priya thoozi'/ daasi by her side to scare away the vultures and crows. A whore with many lovers once, is now despised by the world, lay bleeding. At this moment the monk decides it is time for a visit. He visits her and explains to her that only now she is open to what he has to say. The monk imparts the way of dharma. She accepts dharma and dies a peacefull death.
Substitute Pak for Vasavadutta, India for the monk, US for the killed of lover. Now you can appreciate the poem.
So to Pak and her forign minister Hina Rabbani Khar we say, Samayamaayilla.. Samayamaayilla..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby A_Gupta » 05 Aug 2011 23:09

^^^^ Shashi Tharoor is saying that Pakistani liberals are those who think about Pakistan's best interests in a certain way, and it is only with them that Indians can have a meaningful dialog. So I don't understand stuff like this:

CRamS: Once again why make the argument on what is in TSP's interests. Majority of TSPians do believe that "good Taliban" and pigLeTs work in their national interests. This is pleading for peace. Rather, the argument must be that there is a price to pay if TSP persists with this criminal policy of using terror as an instrument of state policy.


To repeat, if a Pakistani thinks that "good Taliban" and pigLeTs work in their national interests, then that Pakistani is not a liberal and there is no point for Indians to talk to them.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby GeorgeM » 05 Aug 2011 23:11

gakakkad wrote:x post from the HALLALLED TSP thread-

Anyone who has ever attended an American ER knows that drug addiction is a very important problem in Khanland. It is quite often that we get a cerebral haemorrhage or Myocardial Infarct young patient due to cocaine overdose. Even more common is an unconscious patient with respiratory depression due to opium/heroin overdose. This is in spite of the much publicised powerful x-ray scanning of all the luggage that is shipped from overseas. It seems truly plausible that the military industrial complex and wall street are responsible for the problem. I am ready to believe it. What I am interested in is the interface of the Talibani's with the wall street devils. ie how do the stalwarts of the "Anglo-american empire" get in touch with the yahoos. The mexican drug lord might be an obvious thought. But are these powerful enough to operate in Af/Pak and liaise with the ISI and co? DEA has been abnormally powerful these days. Some say its a parallel intelligence agency as powerful as the CIA. Could the racket flourish under the aegis of ISI-DEA nexus ?


gakakkad,
It seems that most of the Afghan drug finds it way to Asian/European regions. Some do slip through to US. For US the major conduit is from the southern side. But with meth labs, there is a large indigenous production facility as well. Also please refer to Michael Ruppert who was a LA police officer in the anti-drug squad who had incontrivertabile evidence that CIA itself was running drug operations from South America under various fake off shore companies and flying school primarily from Florida.

What I am interested in is the interface of the Talibani's with the wall street devils. ie how do the stalwarts of the "Anglo-american empire" get in touch with the yahoos.

This is a case where ones own watch dog catching rabbies. When that happens you gently 'put it down' may be with a gun. If you remember, prior to 9/11 the taliban had destroyed about 90% of the poppy fields in Afghanistan. This was called by Mr. Ruppert, LaRouche and others as an economic warfare waged by Taliban against Wall Street/London Financial houses. But luckily things are back in order now. The poppy fields are thriving. The Anglo Americans do not get in touch with the yahoos as you wondered. The slain brother of Karzai was said to be one of the biggest drug lords. The Khan overlords control the drug lords and the drug lords control the chotta abduls and the abduls control the harvest and distrubution. Money flows in through offshore accounts.

Why I am mentioning these in this thread is I want to put across the fact that Khan is not yet ready to cut down Pak. There is this large behind -the-scene network in which Pak is an important player. So long as India and China are cut off from Central Asia, Pak is relevant to her masters. Thru Pak sponsored acts there is much going on to cut off Chinese access to Central Asia (Xinjiang). Take back occupied Kashmir and Aksai Chin at same time cover from North afghan side (former Ahmed Shah Masood strongholds) and we are back in business and Pak will no longer be relevant. The powers be will line up at our door. With Russian influence from the north and India from the South to Central Asia, that is one powerful combo.

So if you want the death of Pak you need to get a corridor to Central Asia. Otherwise all these talk of Pak death is just wishful thinking.


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