Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

[rajithn]

What does 'finishing of Pakistan' mean? There cannot be a war without a definite political aim.

I would assume that a war can only mean breaking up Pakistan into smaller chunks - Balochistan, Sindh etc. Perhaps, some of these broken up parts will join Afghanistan, some will be independent entities and some will need to be turned into sand/dust. A stretch of land that borders our western flank will need to be then turned into a barren stretch that becomes a buffer for us -with anything that moves within that barren stretch deemed hostile.

It will also mean the destruction of all military hardware with the exception of equipment that will be needed for internal security alone, in those provinces.

India takes control of all strategic areas and will be the protectorate for these provinces with Defense, Energy, Telecom and Foriegn Policy being controlled/defined for these provinces, by India. The waters south, will be part of India's strategic extended EEZ. Gwadar will be a permanent Indian Naval Base and a few of the key bases within these provinces will be permanent Indian tri-service bases. Gwadar will also be the point from where re-supply happens to the Indian permanent bases.

Added later: [Sigh! Wishful thinking!]

[rajanb]

One thing is clear, that from the 1950's to now, the US has been totally focused on their interests. Even to the extent, at times, of elbowing their closest allies. This is one great thing about the US.

Second, is the fact that they have been economically and militarily been supreme, but the downslide seems to have commenced. Not that they cannot pull out of it, one hopes.

But wait, their political leadership has let them down. After all, they are humans and not gods. Their dimwitted decisions. Their been taken for a ride by the Pakis is but one example in their history.

I am perplexed at the fact that some of us are expecting the US to "handle" Pakistan for us.

The question I have to ask myself as an Indian is why we haven't been focused in check mating our threat perceptions? Why isn't it that since 1947 we haven't reduced Pakistan to a non irritating entity? Why aren't we, even now, putting things in motion to reduce the threat?

One can argue, that even the US has not been able to do it. And how can we expect us to achieve that goal? But I question the will of our polity in being firm and strong and driven by purpose. I am sure there have been opportunities to have achieved a greater security vis a vis our two menacing neighbours.

So I now am resigned to the club which hopes that Pakistan will dig itself in deeper, into a self weakening hole. Cheer when I hear of drone strikes and bum blasts.

In a nutshell, we haven't pulled our weight enough, when opportunities presented themselves and when we knew the threats were assuming bigger proportions.

[Luxtor]

^^^

After India's supposed refusal to be Amerikhans' poodle at the advent of our independence, they decided to cultivate the Pukis who would kiss anybody's behind to get a leg up on India. For a while it seemed like Pukistan was going to develop into a modern, western learning, moderate Islamic state along the lines of Turkey in the NATO folds. So with this background, there is no chance of the U.S. "handeling" Pukistan; why would they? Only after seeing the unfolding history of repeated attacks by the Pukis on India and the repeated defeats and bungling of everything by the Pukis did they realize that the Pukis are nincompoops. After their "help" against the Soviets in Afghanistan and the consequent degeneration into a terrorist factory and repeated failures as a functioning democracy and all the other mess ups did the West fully realize how bad the Pukis really are. I know this is a controversial but India should have done to the Pukis at the outset of their nuke development what the Israelis did to Saddam Hussein's regime when they bombed their nuke reactors. Sometimes you have to do certain things at certain critical points in history despite the risks, but India is not a risk taker even when our core interest and even survival is at stake. We wasted our time and our security by believing in the fairness of the UN and the world community to help settle our disputes with our neighbors. Other powerful nations settle matters with force if necessary with countries that threaten their security and ask questions later. I think in retrospect the world would have appreciated the favor of India nuke-nudeing the Pukis right from the start.

[shravan]

US citizen kidnapped from Lahore

LAHORE: A US citizen, Justin Warner, has been abducted from his residence in Model Town Block ‘J’ in Lahore on early Saturday, SAMAA reported.

CNN

The American has been identified as Warren Weinstein, said spokesman Alberto Rodriguez. Weinstein, who works for a private company, was taken from his residence in Lahore, Rodriguez said.


Reuters

The man, who the U.S. embassy declined to identify, works for the consulting firm J.E. Austin Associates Inc., and was working on a development project in the country's lawless tribal areas, where Pakistani troops have been battling Islamist insurgents for years.

[shivajisisodia]

There have been many articles in the media lately about that. I am posting one link below from Times of India as an example.
Perhaps, because India hasnt been able to finish off Pak by itself.

The pace of modernization leaves much to be desired. But Mr. Mishra is only referring to this pace and not suggesting a halt. The nature of Military Industry is that it will always involve commissions and kickbacks. Mr. AKA's wish for clean defense deals is idealism at best, naiveté at worst.

Well, India not finishing off Pakistan is not a matter of our ability but points more to a lack of will. And since we are not willing (and even if we were to concede that we wont be able to), then this is our problem, is it not? The United States, or any country for that matter, wont step in out of goodness of their hearts to rid us this pestilential nuisance. If we believe Pakistan is truly hurting us, we need to grow a couple of big, hairy ones and rid ourselves of Pakistan. {Sometimes, in moments of frustration, I go as far as to speculate that the political parties, irrespective of their hues, may not actually want to solve this problem once and for all. Pakistan is a readily available distraction, for the politicians to use when the masses turn up the heat on them for any mis-deeds}

US should finish off Pak not out of the goodness of its heart, but out of its own deep long term national interest, which is as follows:

1. Islamism is the biggest threat to US going forward, far more potent and deadly than communism ever could be

2. Pakistan is the "forward strike force" of Islamism and this strike force consists of a complex of Jihadi groups, ISI, PAk army, a bunch of mullahs, all based in Paki

3. Pak has already demonstrated its deep hostility to the US, via its various acts of creating and hiding Taliban on its territory to strike at will against Americans and killing them

4. Poll after Poll shows that Pakistanis hate Americans, some polls even show percentages as high as 89% and 80%. It is well known that US is the most hated country in Pak and the country that hates the US most in the world is Pak

5. Pak has directly killed Americans in this Af-Pak conflict

6. Pak has nuclear weapons which sooner or later will be used against US, which 80 + % of Pakis hate---yes not dislike, not disagree with, but hate

If US has to confront its most lethal, persistant and deadly long term foe (Islamism), it has to defeat its advance strike force called Pak. US just doesnt realize the threat fully and is acting foolishly by paying this snake that has bitten them and will continue to bite them, each bite being more lethal then the previous one.

It is India's job to indulge in high level diplomacy to make US realize the true nature of the threat it faces and "finish off" Paki in its own interest, not just in India's interest, out of the "goodness of its heart".

I will go one step further and assert that this is a golden opportunity for Indian diplomacy to convince US of this, as this is the time that US is most open to such suggestions than at any time in the past and if Indians miss this opportunity for aggressive diplomacy, India would have missed the boat again.

I do not believe India has either the capability or the will to "finish off Pak", no matter how you define "finish off". I will be open to just about any definition of "finish off" of Pak. We all know in our hearts, what "finishing off Pak really entails", we need not split hairs about it.

[chetak]

US citizen kidnapped from Lahore

LAHORE: A US citizen, Justin Warner, has been abducted from his residence in Model Town Block ‘J’ in Lahore on early Saturday, SAMAA reported.

CNN

The American has been identified as Warren Weinstein, said spokesman Alberto Rodriguez. Weinstein, who works for a private company, was taken from his residence in Lahore, Rodriguez said.

Reuters

The man, who the U.S. embassy declined to identify, works for the consulting firm J.E. Austin Associates Inc., and was working on a development project in the country's lawless tribal areas, where Pakistani troops have been battling Islamist insurgents for years.

Shades of Daniel Pearl.

Another unfortunate jewish gentleman.

[Dilbu]

The man, who the U.S. embassy declined to identify, works for the consulting firm J.E. Austin Associates Inc., and was working on a development project in the country's lawless tribal areas, where Pakistani troops have been battling Islamist insurgents for years.

Development project in tribal areas? Hmm.. sounds like another Raymond Davis.

[nvishal]

IMO Islamism has to be encouraged. It is the biggest threat to challenge western stability after nazi germany. Forget for a moment about the problems of islam in india. We are all aware of islam's capability. Instead of fighting it in some kind of interest to humanity, we must channel it against our enemies.

We must encourage people like zakir naik and similar deobandi residents in our country to emigrate to europe and US. Use state money to help them settle in the west and they'll do the rest for us.

We have to see the positive side of having pakistan. We must recognize the pakistani muslim's potential capability of planting the seeds of mass chaos in western nations and use it in our interests.

[Dilbu]

^^
That sounds very much like unkil feeding a dog like LeT hoping that it would bite only SDREs. We all know what that idea got them into.

[nvishal]

@Dilbu
India outlived more than 5 centuries of brutal islamic rule and it still remains a dharmic majority. I think we have gone through the worst and I'm positive we'll survive whatever the future has to throw at us.

There's a reason why 70% of the punjabi population is muslim today. Power attracts a kshatriya as money attracts a vaishya. Islam will act as a magnet to the west.

[shravan]

Karachi markets closed, 9 killed in firing and grenade attacks, 16 vehicles burnt

[Airavat]

US officials slammed the London-based Bureau of Investigative Journalism report's finding that drone strikes had killed up to 168 children in Pakistan over the last seven years. "The numbers cited by this organization are way off the mark," said a senior US official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. In the past year, in the neighborhood of 600 militants -- including over two dozen terrorist leaders -- have been taken off the battlefield."

US officials also cast doubt on one of the report's sources, Mirza Shahzad Akbar, a Pakistani lawyer who is suing the Central Intelligence Agency on behalf of civilians who say they lost loved ones in drone strikes. "One of the loudest voices claiming all these civilian casualties is a Pakistani lawyer who's pushing a lawsuit to stop operations against some of the most dangerous terrorists on the planet," the official said. "His publicity is designed to put targets on the backs of Americans serving in Pakistan and Afghanistan. His agenda is crystal clear." The official said there were concerns about the lawyer's possible links with Pakistani intelligence, as Akbar had publicly named the CIA's undercover station chief in the country.

AFP

[Luxtor]

What does 'finishing of Pakistan' mean? There cannot be a war without a definite political aim.

I would assume that a war can only mean breaking up Pakistan into smaller chunks - Balochistan, Sindh etc. Perhaps, some of these broken up parts will join Afghanistan, some will be independent entities and some will need to be turned into sand/dust. A stretch of land that borders our western flank will need to be then turned into a barren stretch that becomes a buffer for us -with anything that moves within that barren stretch deemed hostile.

It will also mean the destruction of all military hardware with the exception of equipment that will be needed for internal security alone, in those provinces.

India takes control of all strategic areas and will be the protectorate for these provinces with Defense, Energy, Telecom and Foriegn Policy being controlled/defined for these provinces, by India. The waters south, will be part of India's strategic extended EEZ. Gwadar will be a permanent Indian Naval Base and a few of the key bases within these provinces will be permanent Indian tri-service bases. Gwadar will also be the point from where re-supply happens to the Indian permanent bases.

Added later: [Sigh! Wishful thinking!]

Your list of wishful thoughts are very logical. I agree with every point. It seems that Pukistan is on a collision course with its destiny which is extinction. It seems that just before that destiny, the Puki elite might turn over sovereignty to the Chinese since the Pukis are so much in love with the Chicoms, and call it quits as far as their own direct governance is concerned. Then they'll settle for peanuts handed out by the Chinese to have comfortable personal living as some sort of Chinese appointed governers of their own people. I am amazed at how facinated they are and the reverence the Puki elite and the Puki abdul on the street have for the Chinese. Before this happens India absolutely must do something. We can not allow this to happen. If they try, then we need to make the Chinese lives miserable and turn Pukiland into their Vietnam. It is easier to do it now before the Chinese become even more powerful and untouchable in the future. Presently the Chinese are well within the reach of India. The Chinese economy and military/strategic capability is not that great despite all the hoopla the West seems to make of it. They may indeed be a paper tiger at this time but time is of the essence.

[rajanb]

I have always been fascinated by the Chinese - Islamic link.

The genesis of this goes back to a book I read a few decades back, (which book was pinched from my collection by an uneducated boorish soul).

It was the "Prophecies of Nostradamus". To prove their point, the author(s) had pointed out how Nostradamus had predicted WWI and the Hitler era and WWII.

What little I remember of it was that WWIII was going to be between a Chinese-Islamic axis sweeping through Asia to Europe. Destroying cities and countries of which Paris, London and New York were identified. This axis would be defeated and the last major battle would be fought on the "banks of the Ganges". And the major adversary leading this axis would be a General with one hand crippled!

So when I read about Kissinger and thereby the US getting together with China, I was reminded of this. And now, with Pakistan poodling for China, and the US on the other side, I am reminded of this again.

It was always in our best interests and continues to be in our best interest to ensure India is always in a position of strength against its neighbours. Nostradamus or otherwise.

But we have let chances go abegging. It is laudable that we want a strong economy, but the better the economy the greater should be our security and we are lagging behind.

While the Paki nautch girl continues to shamelessly sell its wares in return for dangerous instruments of war.

When the US, yesterday, made a comment about peaceful protest, our MEA retaliated immediately. A DDM going into raptures about how the Government responded to a mighty power oceans away.

But when Pakistan rattles their fully bought nuclear wares, we leave it to a service chief to threaten a violent reprisal.

What does our MEA and political establishment gain by keeping quiet? Cowardice or is it vote bank politics?

I leave you to let your imagination make you shudder at the ramifications of this silence, if it is the latter. Because the former can always be negated by our brave men in uniform.

[SSridhar]

But when Pakistan rattles their fully bought nuclear wares, we leave it to a service chief to threaten a violent reprisal.

And then, reprimand him too for speaking out of turn. Some believe (not me) that it was a chanakian good-cop, bad-cop play. Someone has to really know what transpired between the Defence Minister and the Service Chief to speak so authoritatively. Not being privy to that kind of information, I go by press reports and get dismayed.

When the US, yesterday, made a comment about peaceful protest, our MEA retaliated immediately. A DDM going into raptures about how the Government responded to a mighty power oceans away.

But, the US had no business at all to make such statements. No more on that here.

[rajanb]

@SSridhar

The comparison with the statement to US was in the phrase "oceans away"

[A_Gupta]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ament.html
Fai and the UK parliament

[shiv]

I know this is a controversial but India should have done to the Pukis at the outset of their nuke development what the Israelis did to Saddam Hussein's regime when they bombed their nuke reactors. Sometimes you have to do certain things at certain critical points in history despite the risks, but India is not a risk taker even when our core interest and even survival is at stake.

Luxtor - India and Pakistan are one and the same, separated by islam. Same people, same backwardness of thought and same inability see the world through strategic lenses. For strategic thought you cannot elect buddhoos who are popular with some caste group and expect strategic thought to occur. It requires a culture of scholarship with studies of history, geography, psychology and sociology apart from military studies. India will get there eventually -the only question is whether Pakistan wil also get there at the same time - given that we are actually Pakistanis in our mentality and competence. It may hurt to hear this - but Pakis are right in saying that India-Pakistan would be a world beating superpower. This is not an endorsement by me of loving Pakistan. it only means that Pakistan has the ability to disrupt and delay India and India does not yet have the greatness to pull ahead and is only slightly ahead of Pakistan. We need to recognise and encourage competence in our country like the West - esp the USA did.

One possibility that we need to consider about why the USA found Pakistan so attractive was that both India and Pakistan were seen as poor, chaotic and dysfunctional but Pakistan was a willing slave. Both were equally stupid. India has pulled ahead only gradually and we need to go far far further before we are able to think strategically about the future. In my patient moments I see Indians as a nation just waking up. In my impatient moments I think India is full of pompous nincompoops who take a thousand years to do what can be done in ten. Only Indians think India is much better than Pakistan. But the Pakistanis think Pakistan is much better than India.

[shiv]

IMO Islamism has to be encouraged. It is the biggest threat to challenge western stability after nazi germany. Forget for a moment about the problems of islam in india. We are all aware of islam's capability. Instead of fighting it in some kind of interest to humanity, we must channel it against our enemies.

We must encourage people like zakir naik and similar deobandi residents in our country to emigrate to europe and US. Use state money to help them settle in the west and they'll do the rest for us.

We have to see the positive side of having pakistan. We must recognize the pakistani muslim's potential capability of planting the seeds of mass chaos in western nations and use it in our interests.

I think an eventual reconciliation of India and Pakistan is possible. But Pakistan must dilute Islam. If Pakistanis choose to keep their Islam as an anti-India force then there is no possibility of reconciliation. Change Islam and we can talk. After all Pakistan is Islam.

We need to quit bullshitting and beating about the bush. Islam caused the split. remove or dilute the Islam that cause the split and India and Pakistan can talk.

It is only because Indians do not want to "start a religious conflict" that we beat about the bush. Pakistanis have no such compulsions. Now imagine, if one man announces loudly that he wants to sleep with his neighbor's wife. The neighbor, out of a misplaced sense of sensitivity tries to hide this and play it down. It changes nothing - the whole world knows that X wants to sleep with Y's wife and Y is saying nothing about it. It is high time we said "OK you stupid gits. You want peace? Look at the original cause of conflict. Change your Islam and we have peace. After all Jamaat ud dawa and LeT are even today using islam to hit India. So why are we shy? Maybe Hindus lack strategic thought.

[anupmisra]

Here's an interesting article by a paki living in Ireland. He questions the necessity of the two-nation theory but bases his assumptions on false thesis and lots of circular arguments. In a nutshell, he questions the need for the two-nation theory but in the end supports Djinnah's demand for pa'astan. He even cites historical examples where the Irish demanded their own state based on the two nations (to separate the nations of Catholics from the protestant Irish in the early '20s). Recall, Djinnah along with the co-conspirators of the TNT were in England during this period. I am only posting the main (but not the right) questions he asks, but please do take time to read the entire article.

A critical look at the two nation theory

We need to put this so-called theory to some logic test and see where it takes us to. The following questions spring to mind:

1. If Hindus and Muslims could not live together under any circumstances, why did it take Muslims a few centuries to realise this fact? Where was the Two Nation Theory when India was being ruled by Muslims?

2. If the Two Nation Theory was to be followed, why were there Muslims left in India to live under Hindu rule?

3. If the Two Nation Theory is still applicable, what is the status of Hindus living in Pakistan today? Why do we issue them National Identity Cards when they are not to be considered part of the same nation as Muslims? And why do they have representation in the Pakistani parliament?

4. Aside from the Two Nation Theory, are Muslims one nation themselves? If Muslims were one nation, why would the more wealthy Muslim states not grant nationality to less privileged Muslims from other countries, including Pakistan? On the contrary, why would Pakistan have a visa requirement for a Muslim from another country – including India?

5. If the Two Nation Theory was the binding force, why did East Pakistan secede to become Bangladesh?

Clearly, it takes more than religion to form a nation.

One part of his article that springs out is this:

One such tweaking of the history is the Two Nation Theory, which led to the incorrect belief that Pakistan was created as a religious state. The Quaid-e-Azam had not conceived Pakistan as a theocracy, and that is something he clarified on a number of occasions.

Then he goes on to state:

While reference is made to his presidential address to the historic Muslim League convention of March 1940 where he stated that Muslims and Hindus were ideologically different nations, the fact remains that it was in the context of Muslims being unfairly treated as a minority in British India.

Muslims have always been a minority in India since Qasim. Go figure. Heads I win, tails you lose.

[menon s]

^^^^ The people who have identity problems are mostly illegitimate children? Is Pakistan a b.......d? then?

[Mahendra]

Bangalore waale brother, it is not "two-nation theory" it is "donation" theory and I bet my bottom asharfi that Djinnah knew that his (abomi)nation would survive only till the donations came in steadily

[Prem]

TNT= Muti Father Theory. Pakistan/Pakistanis are born from not one father but many . They take pride in the Scew Loose theory that many mental men came from ouside , stayed on hourly basis and donated their essense to give birth to this curse of both humen and animals alike. Inbreeding has just cemented this demented thought within the Walls of Poaqqanistan.

[Anantha]

Daily news take on the WW kidnapping
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2 ... unman.html

The house Weinstein was snatched from is in the eastern city of Lahore, a lawless tribal area that has been a battleground between Pakistani troops and Islamist insurgents for years.

Rapid progress in Lalaland and laWhore

[a_kumar]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ament.html
Fai and the UK parliament

From above

The Daily Telegraph can disclose that Fai was also director of the Justice Foundation based in Bloomsbury, central London, alongside three British men and two Indian nationals, one of them based in Saudi Arabia.

Couldn't get hold of any relevant information on Indian names behind Justice Foundation. Any idea who they are?

[Stan_Savljevic]

http://www.justicefoundation.co.uk/welcomeDetail.php

[arun]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ament.html

Fai and the UK parliament

From above

The Daily Telegraph can disclose that Fai was also director of the Justice Foundation based in Bloomsbury, central London, alongside three British men and two Indian nationals, one of them based in Saudi Arabia.

Couldn't get hold of any relevant information on Indian names behind Justice Foundation. Any idea who they are?

http://www.justicefoundation.co.uk/welcomeDetail.php

Harsh Mander who is listed as a member of the Round Table Working Group on Kashmir of the Inter Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI / ISID) funded Kashmir Centre in the UK is also a member of the Sonia Gandhi Chaired National Advisory Council which is a part of the Prime Ministers Office (PMO) .

Members of the NAC are listed here:

Members of the NAC

[arun]

Yet another good reason why donors will be better served by keeping their wallets locked away whenever the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is on one its frequent begging forays:

Oxfam flood aid to Pakistan embezzled, report finds

[ramana]

Arun Can you tweet that so it gets more publicity.

We now have NAC members on Fai payroll and not just interlocutors.

[SSridhar]

Harsh Mander who is listed as a member of the Round Table Working Group on Kashmir of the Inter Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI / ISID) funded Kashmir Centre in the UK is also a member of the Sonia Gandhi Chaired National Advisory Council which is a part of the Prime Ministers Office (PMO)
Members of the NAC

Arun, that is an interesting nugget of fact that you have brought out.

[shiv]

Harsh Mander who is listed as a member of the Round Table Working Group on Kashmir of the Inter Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI / ISID) funded Kashmir Centre in the UK is also a member of the Sonia Gandhi Chaired National Advisory Council which is a part of the Prime Ministers Office (PMO) .

Members of the NAC are listed here:

Members of the NAC

Brilliant. An Indian member of an ISI funded/organised group is a member of the Indian "National Advisory Committee"?

WoW!

I wonder what "advice" he would have for the Indian government?

[arun]

That’s the way the cookie crumbles.

Regrettably the agenda to appease the Islamic Republic of Pakistan on the perceived ground that this will garner support of the Muslim electorate has been successfully foisted by the UPA Chairman Sonia Gandhi and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh onto our Nation.

The net result is members of ISI / ISID funded organisations such as Harsh Mander become advisors to Prime Minister of India Dr. Manmohan Singh and sit on the same high table as the PM’s boss, the Chairperson of the UPA, Mrs. Sonia Gandhi.

Meanwhile Harsh Mander dishes out a pre Independence day homily which could very easily be mistaken for an ISI / ISID sponsored propaganda piece to malign India, focussed as it is almost exclusively on suffering with nary a mention of the accomplishments since Independence, in todays Hindu:

A fractured freedom

[nvishal]

I think an eventual reconciliation of India and Pakistan is possible.

Yes but india does not understand what it needs to do to make that happen.

There are two things that can happen to an enemy after he is defeated:
1) He is killed and his province is merged with your's.
2) Make him work for you (like a governor)

We can see the second option in work after the US withdraws from the states it invades. While india may have defeated pakistan several times in the past, it has always refused to solve things once and for all. I have tried to make sense of this approach.

You need to remove india from pakistan v/s india. However you cannot leave it empty after you leave(pakistan v/s ?). Pakistan will pull you back in if you do that(which has been happening). It has to be compensated with someone else. eg: pakistan v/s balochistan or pakistan v/s pashtunistan or iran or whoever.
----------

Merging pakistan back with india is beneficial for them, not us. Instead, focus on the positive side of having pakistan.

[SSridhar]

Long before Pakistan can reconcile with India, it has to reconcile with itself. There is no doubt that an India-Pakistan rapprochement would require a Pakistan very different from what obtains today and what the future holds if the current trajectory continues. We have to see what shape such an internal reconciliation leaves Pakistan with before thinking of establishing a normal state-to-state relationship. One recalls Chairman Mao's reply to a question on the impact of the French Revolution: It is too early.

[nvishal]

India-Pakistan rapprochement would require a Pakistan very different from what obtains today

Not possible. We are at a final stage.

When you defeat an enemy several times and let him go each time to try again, it becomes mutual destructive warfare.

[Sri]

SS Sir + 1

And to those who have advocated dismemberment of Pakistan as political aim of India. It could be a strategic aim limited to diplomatic and financial support. But to involve Armed forces would require India to become a legitimate party in the conflict first. How will that happen? Has someone from sindh invited us to 'save them'? If yes then it meets only one criteria. Is the majority of world power support any such action by India? And does situation in Sindh effect security situation in India? What will Pakistan / Sindh / Baluchistan look like after military action? Is there a popular / elected leader who we can hand over the power?

Forget the nuclear question... answer the above first.


SS Sir, Remember my pointing out Altaf Hissain's statement a few days ago about Muhajir's acceptance back in India being interesting? That could make us a party albeit on a very weak wicket.

[neeraj]

Some death-bed options for Pakistan

'Pakistan's ambition to become a hub of economic activity would be difficult to materialise without the opening of transit routes to India....Pakistan is fast coming apart, existentially and in terms of thinking. The reason is the dwindling of factors that hold life together. The economy cannot be allowed to start growing through cheap money if law and order are not ensured. As people become unemployed through a shrinking of the economy, their inclination to vandalism and crime becomes not only possible but - to them - morally justified.

The state is sliding to a halt. It cannot run the facilities it has inherited. It cannot guarantee the survival of those in the private sector. The first and last signature of the state - security of property rights - is fading. The writ of the state is gone in a large part of its territory and going in what is left. If the rupee slides through dollarisation and through hyper-inflation, the state may have to be labelled 'failed state'....Pakistan is different from India's other neighbours. It is a nuclear power. But the bomb Pakistan made was not meant for war as most clerics think. Pakistan cannot use the bomb for fighting India, as it did at Kargil. At war, it will be defeated as it was in 1971 and 1999. But the bomb is good as a weapon of peace and for free-trading, and that is what Pakistan should do. For counter-terrorism, Pakistan needs writ of the state and for that it needs to fight the terrorists. It is a circular argument.

[nvishal]

It could be a strategic aim limited to diplomatic and financial support. But to involve Armed forces would require India to become a legitimate party in the conflict first.

requirement is combo

[a_kumar]

Harsh Mander who is listed as a member of the Round Table Working Group on Kashmir of the Inter Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI / ISID) funded Kashmir Centre in the UK is also a member of the Sonia Gandhi Chaired National Advisory Council which is a part of the Prime Ministers Office (PMO) .

Members of the NAC are listed here:

Members of the NAC

Arun, Great find.

It opens an unexpected window (into NAC) and needs to be taken to logical end.

At the same time, the dots are still not connecting.

The staff page is empty Justice Foundation : About Us -> Staff

The Daily Telegraph can disclose that Fai was also director of the Justice Foundation based in Bloomsbury, central London, alongside three British men and two Indian nationals, one of them based in Saudi Arabia.

The report is referring to several directors and says the following about them.

-> Fai is one (But he isn't identified as such on the webpage anywhere, but maybe we can assume it was removed)
-> Indian national 1 (location unknown)
-> Indian national 2 (based in Saudi Arabia)
-> British national 1
-> British national 2
-> British national 3

Harsh Mandar is listed as member of Round Table working group and belongs to "Center for Equity Studies" (CES) in India. Also, CES seems to have one or two respectable names as founding members or board members and works with Wipro. I suspect if he is one of the unnamed directors, though he would be guilty of associating himself with anti-india organisation.

We need some focus on who the directors are!!

[SSridhar]

India-Pakistan rapprochement would require a Pakistan very different from what obtains today

Not possible. We are at a final stage.

I am not saying rapprochement is possible or even desirable. All I am doing is to lay down the single most important pre-condition for that to happen, namely Pakistan's internal reconciliation. Anything else, like the 'No-War Pact' of Ayub Khan or 'Nuclear Free South Asia' bandied about at various times or the ongoing 'Composite Dialogue' will not work.

But, I do agree that Pakistan seems well past that possibility. It now appears to be in death throes. It may miraculously survive as it did after Partition or after 1965 or after 1971 or after 1998. But, we cannot ignore the fact that every lifeline that was thrown to it at each of the above points of inflexion in fact pushed the country deeper into death throes.