Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

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SRoy
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby SRoy » 08 Sep 2011 11:10

negi wrote:SRoy no one is confusing things ; they are crystal clear i.e. Pakistan might thrive on religious acrimony in India but that does not imply it is responsible for the latter. It is mostly our own undoing.

Absolutely agreed.

But you have misunderstood my post, my post substantiates your statement. Read again.

In this thread, I see a line of thought pushed (unfortunately by folks that are well versed with Pakistan in all respect and post excellent analysis) around that suggest that we calibrate our response based on constraints imposed on us.
In other words the initiative lies with Pakistan. In other words we accept to act from a position of weakness.
The other tendency is to somehow paint every GoI stupidity as some well thought machiavellian move. A nation of cowards that we have become.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Sep 2011 12:01

Wad du yah know, some people and Nations never have, will or ever learn.
The biggest US mistake in the war against terrorism was to ignore Al Qaeda in Pakistan to invade Iraq after the September 2001 terror attacks and trusting then president Pervez Musharraf to "fight on our side",


[url=http://expressbuzz.com/world/‘trusting-musharraf-was-a-strategic-failure’/311981.html]Trusting Mushraf was a strategic failure[/url]


Atleast can you cancel his son and Grand children citizenship, amke sure the whole family travels to PAK-IS-TAN and they uspend themselves from lamposts with a piece of ropes on thier necks

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby RajeshA » 08 Sep 2011 13:51

Kamboja wrote:I agree that TSP can be characterized as regular forces -- the TSPA, the bureaucracy, etc. -- complementing the irregulars, which are the terror outfits; and that the latter can be a source of continuous 'pinpricks' to us even without winning victory. I also agree that were TSP to fall apart, the likelihood is that Pakjab would be nothing more than a festering mass of such terror outfits.

Where I disagree is that this greater mass of terrorist outfits would be able to continue to inflict proportionally greater damage on India, because I think it overlooks the fact that those who wish to inflict the pinpricks must 'stand on the shoulders' of the regular forces of TSP in order to reach India and insert their pins.

In other words -- while the terror tanzeems can provide the cannon fodder, the propagandu, some rudimentary training, maybe even some funding and small arms, it takes the entire modern support infrastructure of the ISI to channel drug money from Afghanistan, heavy weapons from Paki ordinance factories, training from SSG commandus, fake passports, entry into India and stay at safehouses, et cetera. 26/11-like attacks would not have been possible if Pakistan were simple a collection of Somalias, because it required the 'deep state' ISI to organize recon months in advance, provide fake currency, cultivate local contacts for months if not years, channel logistics through Bangladesh and Nepal, and perhaps most importantly act as the shield against Indian fury... all of which would be beyond the capabilities of a hundred or even thousand terror tanzeems collectively, if they had not an ISI to marshal them.

If TSP collapses into a mess of terror tanzeems, we will have constant trouble at the border, but only at the border -- no more incursions into the heartland because that would be beyond the scope of the little feudal terror tanzeems, whereas now those those tanzeems can avail of the services of the entire state (i.e. the ISI) to penetrate anywhere in India... as sadly demonstrated so often in the recent past.

Kamboja ji,

a very good post!

I did post a similar scenario.

I think the problem we have is that we see Islam or Pakistan as one huge sea of fanaticism or potential fanaticism out to get us, because of our different beliefs. That view may be correct, but we also have to look at that society from a tribal angle, from a feudal angle, from a gang warfare perspective.

We have to look at the dawaist structures of these tanzeems. These Tanzeems are powerful, if the organization can provide for their Mujahids and their families. Ultimately it comes down to resources, both to sustain the group and to sustain its operations.

This means these gangs need access to money, food, water, territory, weapons, ammunition, transport, gasoline, freedom of movement, supply routes, patronage, intelligence, channels of communication. It also means that in the country with widespread poverty and dearth of resources, there will be fierce competition between various tanzeems and gangs.

If we can control the perimeter around "Pakalia", Indian can exert control over all these tanzeems, directly or indirectly, through Indian 'Islamic charities' or Indian-controlled 'Arab charities'. With Indian control, I mean RA&W's 'Pakalia' Division. With 'Pakalia' (Pakistan+Somalia, something we have fully cooked), I mean a dystopian region of Pakjab, Seraikistan and Northern Sindh.

1) India exerts influence on feudal lands, by controlling water distribution, markets for produce, transfer of money. So basically we control all the food supply in Pakistan.

2) India provides all the gasoline, weapons, ammunition, jeeps, money, etc. to these Tanzeems, controlling their organizational structure, politics and policies.

3) We make these Tanzeems fight each other, so that there are deep blood feuds between the various tanzeems.

4) We ensure that these Tanzeems attack the Islamist networks of other Tanzeems.

5) We provide all the targets for attacks.

6) We don't allow any Tanzeem to become too strong.

7) Any charismatic leaders are all mauled down.

8 ) The whole society is kept fragmented, and every possible divide is deepened - sectarian, ethnic, tribal, caste, political, feudal, familial.

9) Just like in Somalia, a weak Transitional Federal Government is kept in place, which too listens only to India.

These Tanzeems need not be any danger to India at all. We just need to destroy the unity of the Kabila - the Pakistani Army, who provide either the overall patronage to these tanzeems, or a big target due to which groups like TTP coalesce. Fragmentation is the way to go. India can deal with the Chaos!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shiv » 08 Sep 2011 14:12

negi wrote:Shiv ji one last thing I have no love lost for the baboons in the BJP let's not make it a INC vs BJP thing; this disease of seeing religion and bringing it into every other policy making process is something which cuts across party lines.

I worry that this may be a motivating factor for many on this forum as the current GoI digs itself deeper into crap.

Ultimately Pakistan tries to make capital out of any internal fissures in India. That does not mean that we need to force ourselves to unite with any moron just because Pakistan may benefit if we don't. We don't have to be pseudosecular for example, or apologetic just because of worry that Pakis will benefit.

But I sometimes get the feeling that a lot of people on BRF are seeing a Pakistani war against India as a sort of secular "country to country" war. That means people think Pakistan the country is trying to fight India the country like some Anglo-French war or some such thing. The fact is that Pakistan is fighting a religious war against India. Unless we are wiling to recognise and acknowledge that Pakistan's fundamental grouse against India is a religious "Muslim versus non Muslim" fight we risk thinking that communal tensions in India are some internal affair in India sparked by bad Indian politics, unpatriotic Muslims or appeasement, and that Pakistan's actions against India have no connection with all this.

Pakistan utilises Indian communal tensions to remain united and tell its own people/jihadis that they need to be in a constant state of war with "Anti-Muslim, Hindu India". In order to be in a constant stae of war with India the Pakistan army has ensured that it is overly strong and it has also convince nations like the US that Indians (Hindus) are basically bigots and that they (Pakistanis, Muslims) would be subjugated and occupied by india if they were not armed and nuclear armed.

So it is totally wrong to say that there is no link whatsoever between communal tensions in India and Pakistan. Pakistan is the end result of pre-1947 communal tensions in the first place. Digvijay, Mulayam. Arundhati, Sonia Maino, Mani Shankar Aiyer may all be stupid gits who like to blame non existent Hindu terror, but that issue is totally separate from the fact that Pakistan's war against india is an Islamic jihad that benefits from Indian communal tension. Maybe Aiyer/Dhoti/igy/Maino etc help Pakistan's cause and are helping Pakistan's viewpoint, but even if Dhoti/Maino/Aiyer/Mulayam and Diggy were to suddenly vanish - it would not change Pakistan's fundamental religious jihad trajectory.

I believe that Indians are the only people in the world who have both the incentive and the need to call Pakistan's actions as religious war, an Islamic jihad. And if we don;t do that the US, The Chinese and the rest of the world will be content to imagine that Pakistan's actions are a secular reaction to a bigoted India.

If BRF is wiling to dilute the and wish away the reasons for Pakistani actions against India in favor of blaming some internal political idiots then we are definitely heading the wrong way. BRF is "ahead of curve" as much as MMS shows aggressive Chankianness and Islam is a religion of peace.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Lalmohan » 08 Sep 2011 14:18

so how do we combat a religious war with a secular viewpoint?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby RajeshA » 08 Sep 2011 14:23

shiv saar,

I would call Pakistan's War against India, as both a "Religious Provocation War" and a "Religious War"! The first war is directed at Indian Muslims, the second war is directed at Hindus. If they succeed in the first war, they get the resources (Indian Muslim recruits, Arab money) and the environment (communal disharmony, international sanctions) to fight the second war more effectively.

It is an Islamic Jihad in the minds of the Pakislamics as their Intent, and it is a "Religious Provocation War" by Pakistan on India (or Indian Muslim) as their Strategy.

We need to emphasize the "Religious Provocation War" Pakistan is conducting against Indian Muslims, by attacking Hindus in order to provoke the latter, by recruiting some Indian Muslims to wage Jihad (SIMI, Indian Mujahideen) against Indians, through all sorts of terrorist activity.

All Indians, Hindus and Muslims should unite, and give Pakistanis a huge kick in their nuts, to stop waging this "Religious Provocation War"! This war should be called by its proper name!
Last edited by RajeshA on 08 Sep 2011 14:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shiv » 08 Sep 2011 14:39

Arjun wrote:
shiv wrote:Thank you. So Islamist terrorism in India is now an internal political issue as per both you and Negi-ji and Pakistan is not to be brought in. Good. Now I know why we are doing so well in fighting terror.

That's a strange argument. Isn't the fact that Islamic terrorism is now an internal political issue only a natural corollary of the undoubtedly brilliantly-argued thesis that India must be seen to be completely 'non-threatening' to Pakistan ? How can one appear totally non-threatening to Pakistan and yet accuse it of fomenting terror ?


It is not my personal argument that India should appear non threatening to Pakistan. It is the argument made by Mani Shankar Aiyer and Bharat Karnad and may even have become Indian policy by now.

It is not my argument that Islamic terrorism is an internal political issue. Absolving Pakistan of all involvement in Islamic terrorism in India shocks me when I hear it on BRF. Islam has been fundamental to violence in India since at least "direct action day", and Pakistan has been responsible for much of the moral, financial, material and manpower support. The problem that "secularism" in India has suffered from is the inability to criticise Islam and Islam mediated violence within India and from outside India (Pakistan) without concurrently worrying about alienating Indian Muslims. But all this is well known to everyone.

What bothers me is what might be a huge hole in everyone's analysis as we jump up to blame internal political idiocy, Muslim appeasement, fake accusations of "Hindu terror" as the real reasons why India is going soft on terrorism and on Pakistan. In reality all these "BRF explanations" about why terror continues may be missing the point that India is actually a weak nation.

Many people might be deluding themselves about India's strengths and growth etc. In reality our diplomatic and military position vis a vis an aggressive, dysfunctional Pakistan, a supportive and powerful China and a manipulative USA may be very weak. It may be that india is basically being forced into a corner where we take hits from Pakistan as the least hurtful of many bad choices - with promises from the US and China that they will do everything they can to support Pakistan if India were to take military action. Oh yes one could argue that this cannot be so, but the argument that India has basically been forced into a corner and told to shut up and put up is no worse than the argument that Pakistan would be toast in the absence of people like MMS or Diggy. These latter "excuses" could merely be a way of comforting ourselves by saying "Oh we are strong, but we have internal traitors" The real story could be that not only do we have internal traitors, but we are weak also. Karnad openly says we are weak in relation to China. Everyone knows that and you have heard on this forum how Clinton may have come down on the "strong" BJP in 1998.

If you believe that Clinton basically made Vajpayee and Jaswant back down on further testing it shows India in a very weak light. India's behavior certainly is not one of a strong nation. India behaves weak. We may be deluding ourselves that we are not actually weak, we are very strong but have weak leaders. This may be nonsense.

If India is weak, the WKK and absorbing continuous terrorism is the action you would expect from such a weak nation. And WSIWYG - what you see is exactly that.
Last edited by shiv on 08 Sep 2011 14:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shiv » 08 Sep 2011 14:40

Lalmohan wrote:so how do we combat a religious war with a secular viewpoint?


Impossible. Someone has to start pointing out that it IS religious war.

Now who is doing that?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Sanku » 08 Sep 2011 14:51

shiv wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:so how do we combat a religious war with a secular viewpoint?


Impossible. Someone has to start pointing out that it IS religious war.

Now who is doing that?


There needs a hat tip icon.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Atri » 08 Sep 2011 15:53

shiv wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:so how do we combat a religious war with a secular viewpoint?


Impossible. Someone has to start pointing out that it IS religious war.

Now who is doing that?


accept my regards, shiv ji... :)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby SSridhar » 08 Sep 2011 16:14

Video Shows Terrorists in China got Training in Pakistan
But the Chinese foreign ministry refrained from naming Pakistan in its closely calibrated response to a question about the 10-minute video showing Turkestan Islamic Party leader Abdul Shakoor Damla claiming responsibility for the violence.

"I haven't seen the video you mentioned. Our principled position is that at present, a small handful of terrorist forces..,out of motives of splitting China, are conducting rampant violent terrorist activities within China's border [to] seriously undermine China's national unity, and regional peace and stability," Liu Weimin, the spokesperson, said.

This is significant because even Pakistani foreign minister Hina Rabbani Khar did not categorically deny the presence of East Turkmenistan Islamic Movement training camps in Pakistan. Observers say China needs the support of Pakistani government to curb terrorism and would do nothing to publicly shame Islamabad.


Now, that bolded part is a clincher. PRC is behaving the same way the US has been. That completes the TSP-PRC relationship. Now, Pakistan would do very little to eliminate ETIM even while pretending to the Chinese otherwise. Interesting times ahead. Will TSP be able to milk the Chinese Bull, the way it did the US ? Will PRC also end up helpless like the US vis-a-vis TSP ?

In a way, Pakistan might help India taking care of PRC !

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Lalmohan » 08 Sep 2011 16:24

pakistans true mission is khilafat
USSR - tick
USA - tick
PRC - scheduled

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby RajeshA » 08 Sep 2011 16:26

SSridhar wrote:Now, that bolded part is a clincher. PRC is behaving the same way the US has been. That completes the TSP-PRC relationship. Now, Pakistan would do very little to eliminate ETIM even while pretending to the Chinese otherwise. Interesting times ahead. Will TSP be able to milk the Chinese Bull, the way it did the US ? Will PRC also end up helpless like the US vis-a-vis TSP ?

:rotfl:
The Chinese Bull will in the beginning like the treatment, and some day wonder why its economy is getting leaner and leaner.

Anyway it is a field-tested business model.

In the mean time, Washington should continue to finance Ms. Rebiya Kadeer, World Uyghur Congress, Uyghur American Association and increase public awareness in Muslim countries of the horrendous conditions in East Turkestan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby brihaspati » 08 Sep 2011 16:28

shiv ji,
in several posts on other threads I have said that the Indian rashtra is weakening. I have also said it to some circles in the corridors of power. It is a thoroughly disliked viewpoint. If you seriously meant what you said - you may need to be careful depending on the strength of your networks and say it at your own peril.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shivajisisodia » 08 Sep 2011 18:23

shiv wrote:
What bothers me is what might be a huge hole in everyone's analysis as we jump up to blame internal political idiocy, Muslim appeasement, fake accusations of "Hindu terror" as the real reasons why India is going soft on terrorism and on Pakistan. In reality all these "BRF explanations" about why terror continues may be missing the point that India is actually a weak nation.

Many people might be deluding themselves about India's strengths and growth etc. In reality our diplomatic and military position vis a vis an aggressive, dysfunctional Pakistan, a supportive and powerful China and a manipulative USA may be very weak. It may be that india is basically being forced into a corner where we take hits from Pakistan as the least hurtful of many bad choices - with promises from the US and China that they will do everything they can to support Pakistan if India were to take military action. Oh yes one could argue that this cannot be so, but the argument that India has basically been forced into a corner and told to shut up and put up is no worse than the argument that Pakistan would be toast in the absence of people like MMS or Diggy. These latter "excuses" could merely be a way of comforting ourselves by saying "Oh we are strong, but we have internal traitors" The real story could be that not only do we have internal traitors, but we are weak also. Karnad openly says we are weak in relation to China. Everyone knows that and you have heard on this forum how Clinton may have come down on the "strong" BJP in 1998.

If you believe that Clinton basically made Vajpayee and Jaswant back down on further testing it shows India in a very weak light. India's behavior certainly is not one of a strong nation. India behaves weak. We may be deluding ourselves that we are not actually weak, we are very strong but have weak leaders. This may be nonsense.

If India is weak, the WKK and absorbing continuous terrorism is the action you would expect from such a weak nation. And WSIWYG - what you see is exactly that.


Shiv Sab,

You have articulated what has been in my heart, word for word. I had arrived at this conclusion years ago and things have only gone downhill since. Once you accept the proposition that India is weak, then you have to analyze the reasons why it is weak. I dont buy a lot of the "historical baggage inheritance that makes us weak" theory. China, South Korea, Japan and many other countries are prime examples of how they overcame even worst "historical cards" and came out strong. No. It is how we Indians as a people have conducted ourselves in the recent past and continue to conduct ourselves in the present and will conduct ourselves in the future, unless we drastically change things, that explains our weakness. I will cross post my analysis of why India is weak from some of my other posts from another thread in the next couple of paragraphs. But before I do that, I also want to agree with you on another point you made. That it is not that our leadership such as Diggi and MMS make us weak. They do, but only marginally. No one leader, or two leaders or even an entire political class of several hundred thousands have in themselves the power to make a country like India, weak. They are simply not that powerful. No, it is only hundreds of millions of ordinary Indians, who through their conduct and behaviour can make a nation like India weak or strong. Only those kinds of numbers have that power. And I assert that it is the conduct of the hundreds of millions of us ordinary Indians in the recent past and the present that has weakened us. How ? Read on.

In one of my previous discussions with B'pati Sab, he and I were discussing what the objectives of a nation like India or any nation should be. We more or less agreed on the following common sense objectives that India should have (very basic, no rocket science here). Most healthy nations in this world and even the unhealthy ones by and large follow these objectives and that is the reason they survive as a nation.

1. National Defense to protect Indian territorial integrity and vital interests, consistent with our current threat scenario and perception and also future threat scenarios. This would include weapon systems, strategic systems, armed forces, intelligence agencies and other institutions and functions required to provide this function, optimally.

2. Raise revenues for any and all governance, a revenue generation regime which is fair and least burdensome

3. Effective and Efficient Law and Order regime, which includes police and the judiciary and a seperate and decentralized anti-corruption cell. The system should be such that criminal cases with all its appeals have to be mandatorily adjudicated within one year and civil cases with all its appeals to be mandatorily adjudicated within two years. Criminal cases will have a maximum of three appeals and civil cases will have a maximum of two appeals. A mix of Western and native Indian system of judiciary and trial will be followed, which will do away with the causes of delays within the justice system.

4. Regulation of Currency

5. Foreign Policy

6. Protection of the rights of adherents of native religions such as Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism and other native aboriginie and animist religions without infringing on the rights of adherents of other religions such as Islam and Christianity. In those instances where there is a doctrinal difference between native religions and "externally originated" religions, native religious doctrine will prevail, in the social arena, law and order arena and law of the land arena. Conversion out of any native religion to any "external religion" will be highly regulated and will only be permitted if the religious leaders of the native religion which a person is leaving issue a certificate that this person is leaving out of his own free will without coersion or being bribed.

7. Vital infra-structure projects, which absolutely cannot be performed by the private sector. These have to be rare and should generally be avoided to be taken up by the government, even if the private sector passes on the full, true cost of the infra-structure to its users. But there has to be provision for some, just in case.

8. Excellent primary education till grade 6, via vouchers of equal value provided by the government to all children (regardless of any financial, social or any other status of the parents), to be used in a private school of choice of the parents (India in 2011 can afford this, if corruption doesnt come into play and a voucher system will just about remove corruption from education and transfer the reponsibility of using the vouchers wisely with parents).

9. Citizens will be free to undertake any other public project that they choose through organizing grass roots bodies at the village, city and state levels. These grass roots bodies will be free to raise their own revenues through local taxation, either on a project by project basis or on an ongoing basis for long term maintenanace.

10. Protection of vital national resources including the environment, regulation of public airwaves for broadcasting, water(lakes rivers and oceans), forests, vital minerals and metals only and wildlife

I also argue in one of my other posts, which I dont know if B'pati Sab agrees or not that a large majority of Indians do not have the above as their objectives for India. Hundreds of millions of us Indians only pay lip service to the objectives stated above. The actual and real Indian list of objectives is entirely different from above and is as follows:

1. To live out our lives within the narrow sphere of our castes, regions, sectarian groups, religions and to define even more sharply our differences based on these factors as opposed to coming together to form a larger community, which is called a nation

2. To live in an endless struggle with each other for economic resources and political power, based again on castes, regions, religions and sectarianism. In other words be in a continuous state of caste and sectarian civil war, albeit, a cold civil war, which sometimes turns into a hot civil war.

3. For groups within India that have larger numbers to constantly seek to exact revenge against other smaller groups, using past grievences as a justification, using tools for this retribution, such as job reservations, education reservations and causing consciously as a strategy to totally collapsing law and order (both police and judiciary)

4. To pursue massive transfer payments from one narrow group to another, in the forms of massive subsidies, again using past grievences as justification

5. To deliberately keep the center weak and all its institutions such as the governments and other community institutions toothless to pursue goals such as law and order and national defense, so that caste and sectarian groups can continue their internecine warfare without any check

6. To deliberately weaken the native religions so that even religious authority cannot fill the vaccum to check this internecine struggle, again using the argument that these religions did nothing to prevent past exploitation of large groups of people by the elite of the past

7. To deliberately weaken the traditional culture, so that no order is imposed on the society even by healthy cultural traditions, again so that groups can continue their civil wars with impunity

All our ills, such as lack of national will to pursue robust national defence and foreign policy, enforce fair and stringent law and order, corruption, and all other ills that plague us, and most of all, our "weakness" that you talk about, are a result of these "actual" objectives of the majority of our population.

The prescription of how not to be weak going forward, is also inherent in this post.

IF this post is deemed not very relevent to this thread, moderators, please remove it or suggest another thread where it can be placed.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Atri » 08 Sep 2011 18:43

Is Korea ( I think you are referring to south Korea) strong in a sense that India wishes to be? If India becomes a Munna, we can get quite strong very rapidly. This is what MMS is trying. If it were up to him (by him, I do not mean personally, but his Singaporean school of thought shared by many like Mashelkar, Raja Mohan, our own uber-comprehension man here, MMS and his robin (Montek)) he would rather have India transformed into a system akin to EU. Give off Kashmir and Arunachal, settle all the border disputes with all neighbors by donating the lands and buying off peace accepting NATO's defense shield and develop.

There are strong forces in India which will not let this happen and they are in play right now.

Regarding Cheen, well, mao had made a choice for them few decades ago that they will copy "the west". They have killed off almost everything that makes them chinese.. this "Cheenatva" is sacrificed by mao and his successors for progress. The only choice they now have is whether to become a "good copy" of the west or to become a "bad copy" of the west. India, for good and evil, hasn't made that choice yet, although it is being pushed towards making the choice made by China. But that apart, yes they have become powerful. The nature of that power is dependent on west, hence in a way China has insured herself that her life and death depends upon life and death of USA, in short and mid-term.May be they will embrace Islamic countries similarly. India hasn't made that choice either.

the sanskaras of non-alignment are very old, which India, it seems, is committed to walk on. And this has nothing to do with government.

Since you deny the role of history in teaching why someone behaves in particular manner under particular stimulus, there is no point in referring to Japan's history of independence and China's history of coercive expansion in tibet, korea and japan prior to its fall. All I can say is, Rashtra is like a vishwaroopa of vishnu. Thounsands of arms, heads and feet. For a rashtra to be independent and progressive all these heads, hands, feet should grow in harmony with each other in proportion. The core of India as rashtra is still proportionate and not cancerous like China and Pakistan albeit the growth has been slow. I would value proportionate healthy growth over aasurik one-sided growth.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shivajisisodia » 08 Sep 2011 18:57

^^^^^ Atri Sab,

I profundly but respectfully disagree.

Since, despite our disagreements, I respect the intelligence with which you have conveyed your points, I would be happy to continue this discussion with you on another thread which will be more appropriate. Please suggest a thread, if you are interested, since I, being relatively new, am not sure which thread would be appropriate.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shravan » 08 Sep 2011 19:18

Parents killed over son`s prank
http://www.dawn.com/2011/09/08/parents- ... prank.html


GUJAR KHAN, Sept 7: A retired armyman could not control his temper after a youth in the neighbourhood teased his daughter.

The angry man attacked the boy`s house killing his parents and injuring a passerby on Wednesday morning. However, his real target succeeded in escaping the attack unhurt.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby skumar » 08 Sep 2011 20:08

shiv wrote: The real story could be that not only do we have internal traitors, but we are weak also. Karnad openly says we are weak in relation to China. Everyone knows that and you have heard on this forum how Clinton may have come down on the "strong" BJP in 1998.

If you believe that Clinton basically made Vajpayee and Jaswant back down on further testing it shows India in a very weak light. India's behavior certainly is not one of a strong nation. India behaves weak. We may be deluding ourselves that we are not actually weak, we are very strong but have weak leaders. This may be nonsense.

If India is weak, the WKK and absorbing continuous terrorism is the action you would expect from such a weak nation. And WSIWYG - what you see is exactly that.

+1

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby skumar » 08 Sep 2011 20:13

SSridhar wrote:Will TSP be able to milk the Chinese Bull, the way it did the US ?

Interesting oxymoron. :rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Lalmohan » 08 Sep 2011 20:24

^^^ intentional

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby devesh » 08 Sep 2011 20:29

Shiv ji,
thank you for pointing out the obvious. I've learned something from your post. there are certain tactics that should be used when presenting views on BRF. certain nuances. otherwise, one is likely to get called "bigot" and "idiot" b/c he/she pointed out the folly of a high ranking military man using very unconventional words at a press conference. I will keep this in mind. :)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Prem » 08 Sep 2011 21:12

India is not weak, Indians are kept weak with the daily dose of Pseudoism injected by Gov control machineries. Chachu Started this by making a Mullah incharge of education and still going on. Best way to waste the vitality of enemy is to constantly nudging to the wrong path.
Chicken and egg issue is of our own making.Instead of making the omlete for breakfast or Chicken Tikka as appetizer , we are having discussion who came first.
Main idhar jaoon , yaan oodhar jaon
60 saal nikal gayye
Abbi bhi sochta hai ki kiddar jaoon.
Last edited by Prem on 09 Sep 2011 00:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby negi » 08 Sep 2011 21:29

shiv wrote:I worry that this may be a motivating factor for many on this forum as the current GoI digs itself deeper into crap.

Well obviously for it might come down to having to choose a lesser evil of the two; but that is a different topic and right now not as relevant as other points you raised.


That does not mean that we need to force ourselves to unite with any moron just because Pakistan may benefit if we don't. We don't have to be pseudosecular for example, or apologetic just because of worry that Pakis will benefit.

I never implied anything of that sort; what I said is fissures in India are created by our people and unfortunately administration has chosen to act or ignore them for it’s own political gains. There is no question of trying to be pseudo secular here for we ARE pseudo-secular as far as the government and it’s machinery is concerned. To your first point what are JKLF and Hurriyat doing in our country ? GoI is sleeping with them because it helps them keep seats in J&K assembly.

But I sometimes get the feeling that a lot of people on BRF are seeing a Pakistani war against India as a sort of secular "country to country" war. That means people think Pakistan the country is trying to fight India the country like some Anglo-French war or some such thing. The fact is that Pakistan is fighting a religious war against India.
Again I agree with above but I don’t necessarily agree with the next point you made below.


Unless we are wiling to recognise and acknowledge that Pakistan's fundamental grouse against India is a religious "Muslim versus non Muslim" fight we risk thinking that communal tensions in India are some internal affair in India sparked by bad Indian politics, unpatriotic Muslims or appeasement, and that Pakistan's actions against India have no connection with all this.
Who is ‘we’ here ? Today the moment we have a terrorist incident in our country the first statement that emanates from 10 janpath is ‘Terrorists have no religion’ this even without investigating the crime scene or at times despite Jihadis openly claiming otherwise. So your point about TSP’s war being religious in nature is being rebutted by the GoI itself . The recent joint statements from S.e.S have even gone as far as agreeing that just like TSP , India too is involved in insurgency in Balochistan. So now the world has RAW sponsored Balochis against ISI sponsored Jihadis. The equation is perfectly balanced by the GoI to make this a ‘secular’ war.

Pakistan utilises Indian communal tensions to remain united and tell its own people/jihadis that they need to be in a constant state of war with "Anti-Muslim, Hindu India". In order to be in a constant stae of war with India the Pakistan army has ensured that it is overly strong and it has also convince nations like the US that Indians (Hindus) are basically bigots and that they (Pakistanis, Muslims) would be subjugated and occupied by india if they were not armed and nuclear armed.

More than TSP it’s GoI that has convinced the world that we are a nation of bigots; that is what MMS did when he apologized to the rest of the world for Godhara (kind of funny when one checks the background of UKstan, Unkil, Russia, Germany and PRC how many people have regimes in these countries killed for their vested interests and did we hear an apology from them ?) and yet today he rubs shoulders with folks who were leading the mobs in 84 that killed thousands of Sikhs in and around Dilli, I am yet to hear an apology from him for 84.Crown prince did exactly the same thing when he went up to US ambassador and raised a straw man out of Hindu terror. More than the world it is more important as to what an average Indian thinks about India and it’s government; I remember MMS on TV conceding to a point that IMs are unfairly rounded up by security agencies and police. Isn’t it inappropriate on part of the PM to make such accusations against state machinery using blanket/generic statements? We have weakened our own roots.

Pakistan feeds on religious turmoil within India but who creates such a situation for former to exploit?


So it is totally wrong to say that there is no link whatsoever between communal tensions in India and Pakistan. Pakistan is the end result of pre-1947 communal tensions in the first place. Sir again 1947 riots are a thing of past; the communal tensionsDigvijay, Mulayam. Arundhati, Sonia Maino, Mani Shankar Aiyer may all be stupid gits who like to blame non existent Hindu terror, but that issue is totally separate from the fact that Pakistan's war against india is an Islamic jihad that benefits from Indian communal tension. Maybe Aiyer/Dhoti/igy/Maino etc help Pakistan's cause and are helping Pakistan's viewpoint, but even if Dhoti/Maino/Aiyer/Mulayam and Diggy were to suddenly vanish - it would not change Pakistan's fundamental religious jihad trajectory.

No disagreement there.

I believe that Indians are the only people in the world who have both the incentive and the need to call Pakistan's actions as religious war, an Islamic jihad. And if we don;t do that the US, The Chinese and the rest of the world will be content to imagine that Pakistan's actions are a secular reaction to a bigoted India.

What is the incentive in question ? As I see things the biggest incentive for the GoI is the IM vote bank and as I said a couple of days back on this thread more than the so called right wing/communals it is the secular types who do not trust the IMs that is why they see RED where even a Muslim won’t see nothing.

We are a country of bigoted people sir; bigotry feeds on sentiments and that is how junta votes (on sentiments) and our government functions (again on sentiments).

If BRF is wiling to dilute the and wish away the reasons for Pakistani actions against India in favor of blaming some internal political idiots then we are definitely heading the wrong way. BRF is "ahead of curve" as much as MMS shows aggressive Chankianness and Islam is a religion of peace.

There is no dilution of my love for the TSP but I love the GoI more than the TSP.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby A_Gupta » 08 Sep 2011 22:41

From twitter:
Rezhasan Rezaul Hasan Laskar
Pakistan appreciates fact Indian leadership did not indulge in blame game after bomb attack in Delhi: Foreign Office spox Tehmina Janjua.


Rezhasan is from the North-East, and is the Press Trust of India correspondent in Pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Anujan » 08 Sep 2011 22:55

SSridhar wrote:Now, that bolded part is a clincher. PRC is behaving the same way the US has been. That completes the TSP-PRC relationship. Now, Pakistan would do very little to eliminate ETIM even while pretending to the Chinese otherwise. Interesting times ahead. Will TSP be able to milk the Chinese Bull, the way it did the US ? Will PRC also end up helpless like the US vis-a-vis TSP ?

In a way, Pakistan might help India taking care of PRC !


SSridhar-ji

I believe that Pakistan will crack down on ETIM. Paki-US relationship is different from Paki-China relationship.

Pakis are not dancing to US tune because US interests and Paki interests dont converge. US wants a relatively stable Afghan government, Pakis dont. Because stable governments means they become nationalistic, dont recognize the durrand line and quickly tire of outside manipulation. The second most crucial issue is that Paki interests and US interests dont converge vis-a-vis India. Pakis want India to be defeated and dissected into many pieces. US wants India to become a US lackey, a market for its products and a bulwark against China -- all that means that India must stay whole, strong and friendly to the US.

It is because of these 2 reasons that Pakis are frustrated with the US. They try to defy the US, piss the US off, work behind the back of the US, take money and deceive the US and try to gain leverage against the US.

On the other hand, Paki-China relationship is different. Their interests converge vis-a-vis Afghanistan and India. Chinese want Afghan natural resources. They will pay off various terrorist tanzeems to mine Afghanistan and suck the country dry. If Pakis can guarantee a government and a bunch of thugs to protect chinese mines and operations. China will gladly agree. They have no issue with Afghanistan becoming a base for international terrorists who attack the west. Vis-a-vis India, China will gladly supply Pakistan with desired weaponry and budgetary support because India will never use its leverage against China (either through trade or in the Tibet/Taiwan issue) to protest. Pakis dont need a leverage against China, because Paki-China interests converge.

Pakis will crack down against ETIM. They wont use the army to do that (having done that once before in Lal-Masjid to please their chinese masters, gave them 5 years of bums going off in markets). They will simply use sarkari terrorists to crush ETIM. Like how they have used these Sarkari yahoos like the Haqqanis to effectively crack down on other Lashkars that the GHQ finds unreliable.

Paki-China bhai-bhai can be broken only if all the religious yahoos in Pakistan are enlightened to horror stories of Muslim oppression going on in China. India should play a part in bringing this to their notice.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby BijuShet » 08 Sep 2011 23:12

From Tribune (posting in full). The article's heading and the Senator's words are not on the same track. She went in with eyes open and returned with a satin blindfold personally tied by TSP COAS Kayani. TSP GHQ must offer some unique services to visiting US officials.
Pakistan unable or unwilling to attack Haqqani network: Senator Shaheen
By Huma Imtiaz - Published: September 8, 2011
Senator says Pakistan must take action against extremist groups which had links with the ISI. PHOTO: USIP

WASHINGTON: While discussing her trip to Afghanistan and Pakistan in August this year at an event organized by the United States Institute of Peace, Senator Jeanne Shaheen raised an eyebrow at Pakistan’s unwillingness or inability to take decisive action against the Haqqani network’s leadership.

She said that the Haqqani network and its syndicate network were conducting attacks in the east of Afghanistan.

A member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Shaheen traveled to the region in August with Democratic Senators Carl Levin and Merkley.

In Afghanistan, Senator Shaheen was amazed at seeing the Khyber Pass in a helicopter ride, and by the fact that 20,000 to 40,000 people cross the Afghanistan-Pakistan border through the Torkham pass every day.

Senator Shaheen also said that she realized how Afghanistan and Pakistan border issues had not yet been resolved.

“The Afghans have one map, and Pakistan has a different one,” she said.

During her speech, Senator Shaheen said that in her meetings, she realized that Pakistan was taking action against extremists within its own borders.

“Pakistanis are firing on fellow Pakistanis,” she said.

Senator Shaheen highlighted that there are 150,000 military troops engaged in the country in the conflict, thousands of people have been killed in Pakistan, and that this was “the longest military conflict” that the army had been engaged in.

However, she said, Pakistan must take action against extremist groups which had links with the ISI.

Senator Shaheen also said that she was told in her conversations with the US and Pakistani officials that the three issues that had led to US-Pakistan relations being at an all time low were “Wikileaks, Raymond Davis and the Osama Bin Laden raid.”

Describing her meeting with the COAS General Kayani, Senator Shaheen said that she had a new appreciation and felt much better about the efforts being made after she was told about the number of forces present in FATA, the casualties’ figure and that they’d been fighting there for two years.

In response to a question, Senator Shaheen said that the US-Pakistan relationship is critical, and while there was no agreement on how to improve the relationship, Pakistani leaders had expressed that the ties between both countries were important.


Senator Shaheen also talked about how more needs to be done in Afghanistan in terms of a political reconciliation. “It’s important for us to have an orderly exit from the region, and support the civilian institutions that have been put in place there”.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Anujan » 08 Sep 2011 23:21

Excellent interview on the history of Balochistan struggle. Everyone should read. I think this should also be posted in the first post of TSP dhaaga.

http://gmcmissing.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/revisiting-the-che-guevara-like-days-of-baloch-resistance-movement-with-asad-rehman/

A spirited Asad Rehman, the youngest but the fittest in the popular London Group, remembers how he, at the age of 21, used to ambush the Pakistani military convoys and take away ammunition from them to sustain the movement. An eyewitness to what he bills as the ‘genocide” of the Balochs in the 70s, Rehman alias Chakar Khan, still an ardent supporter of an independent Balochistan, reveals how Baloch women were used as ‘comfort women’ in the military custody and male fighters were captured and thrown from the helicopters.

In an exclusive but a candid and revealing interview with this writer, Rheman recalls his Che Guevara -like days of Baloch resistance movement of 1970s and compares it with today’s Baloch movement
.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Avinash R » 08 Sep 2011 23:34

zaid hamid new "either convert or we will kill you" sermon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWZ3iPJA0o8

everybody with an youtube account flag this video as promoting terrorism and people who are in contact with youtube abuse dept alert them to this new jehadi mouthpiece, this video has been mirrored on other paki youtube channels and those need to be reviewed too by youtube

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby JE Menon » 08 Sep 2011 23:36

on the contrary man, this has to be left alone so all can see... free propagandu by an improper gandu.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Avinash R » 08 Sep 2011 23:58

JE Menon wrote:on the contrary man, this has to be left alone so all can see... free propagandu by an improper gandu.

more of the same old self-defeatist "do nothing" policy, this same policy has been cause of numerous terror attacks on india and deaths of hundreds.
when terror camps are running across the border instead of destroying them, "do nothing"
when terrorists are caught instead of hanging them, "do nothing"
when terrorists are using youtube to spread terrorist propaganda instead of launching an counter attack, "do nothing"
why cant you take 5 minutes to flag the video when he openly threatens to kill if we dont convert?
I see even some seniors are coming under the spell of "do nothing" policy which will only lead to more deaths and no solution to this terrorism problem.
Last edited by Avinash R on 09 Sep 2011 00:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby ramana » 09 Sep 2011 00:13

India is not weak nor weak minded. However policies and stances appear like that in order to survive the ill wind.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Avinash R » 09 Sep 2011 00:14

ChandraV wrote:LOL, wut? :rotfl:

What he meant was, such videos successfully dent the already tattered image of Pakhanis even more. He thinks it is more beneficial for us to not only leave it alone, but perhaps even bring people over to watch it. WHat is "self defeatist" about it? It is just his opinion.

What exactly do you find funny in my request to counter terrorist propaganda?

When a person with a terrorist background threatens to kill you, will you sit laughing or take counter action?

I explained the "self defeatist" policy with 3 examples, you have trouble understanding them?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Agnimitra » 09 Sep 2011 00:19

Avinash R wrote:when terrorists are using youtube to spread terrorist propaganda instead of launching an counter attack, "do nothing"

Indian grownups prefer to attack the Zaid Hamid types on the battlefield not youtube.

JEM was saying that the youtube version of counterpunch is to attract a ringside circus around the joker's rants and have sane people watch and learn what Pakiness is all about. Maybe a few desi teenagers could do a "reply" video mimicking and lampooning the guy. :mrgreen:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby BijuShet » 09 Sep 2011 00:23

From The News (posting in full). TSP is outsourcing its begging to UN. They know that if they beg directly, the donors will laugh at their just fate so they need an intermediary agent like UN to beg on their behalf. Riots, terrorism, polio, dengue, flooding all are signs from Allah to TSPians to mend their ways. Are the TSPians listening?

Pak urges UN to launch int'l flood appeal
Updated 1 hour ago

Pakistan asks UN for international flood appeal

KARACHI: Pakistan on Thursday asked the United Nations to issue an international appeal for humanitarian assistance for up to five million people affected by the recent monsoon rains, an official said.

"President Asif Zardari talked to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon by telephone today and requested him to issue an international appeal for assistance to the flood-affected people," presidential spokesman Farhatullah Babar said.

"Our foreign office is sending a formal letter to the United Nations in this regard," Babar said.

He said Zardari visited his native Nawabshah and other flood-affected towns to review the relief work before speaking from Karachi with the UN chief.(AFP)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby BijuShet » 09 Sep 2011 00:47

From The News - Opinion piece (posting in full). TSP economy will get very interesting in the next 2-3 years. The slow squeeze of poverty, rising inflation, falling trade and a rupee worth nothing will make TSP abduls suffer a fate, Allah usually reserves for the unfaithfools.

From economic crisis to collapse
Dr Muhammad Yaqub - Thursday, September 08, 2011

In her article on the economy in the August 24 issue of The News, Dr Maleeha Lodhi has sounded a serious and timely warning about the looming economic crisis. The message conveyed in her article was that the real threat to the survival of the country was not from India, the US or from terrorism, but from an economic collapse that may be closer than people think if certain policy actions are not taken. She has competently used key macroeconomic indicators to establish that the country is heading towards a train wreck but somehow the government, the opposition and other stake holders continue to ignore the warning signals.

Let me summarise in simple terms the main trigger points of the economy:

The commodity producing sectors are showing low growth. The rate of inflation is much higher than what the official statistics show. The budgetary situation is much worse than what the budget documents reveal or the Ministry of Finance projects. Budget subsidies are substantial and going to the wrong people. Several public-sector enterprises are bankrupt.

The balance sheets of banks are loaded with lending to the government and its bankrupt enterprises on the invalid assumption that sovereign debt cannot be in danger of default. The State Bank of Pakistan (SBP) has no control on its own balance sheet, which is being driven by government borrowing, and it has no autonomy in practice to formulate an independent monetary policy even when the revised SBP Act provides for it.

The private sector is dormant and capital flight is at an all time high. There is no plan for water management to promote agricultural output and the industry is suffering from a shortage of gas and electricity. The underground economy is expanding relative to the recorded economy. The medium term balance of payment situation is much more precarious than what the foreign exchange reserve position reflects.

The state of governance is very poor. In spite of relentless efforts by the judiciary, corruption and pilferage are on the rise. The government is barely functioning and the country’s finance minister has no effectiveness in the chaotic political system. Even with a parliamentary system of government, the prime minister is just a figurehead and the president, having no statutory powers, is in effect running the government. The army is engaged in fighting militancy and seems to have no interest or influence to help stabilise the sinking economic ship. The judiciary is being defied by the executive with impunity. In these chaotic governance conditions, nobody is paying any attention to the real threat to the existence of the country that is emanating from a collapsing economy. The underlying depressing economic trends are being covered up by slogan mongering, false promises, window dressing and statistical jugglery by the government.

While Dr Lodhi has used several macroeconomic indicators to point to the precarious state of the economy, I will focus on two major threatening economic storms that are brewing and that she has already mentioned. On the domestic front, the country is headed towards runaway inflation. On the external front, debt default is a real possibility. Both of these crises will have serious economic, social and political implications and once in progress will be difficult to manage and control.

For the last several years the country is in the grip of sharply rising prices and is headed towards the stage of hyper inflation. A part of high inflation is attributable to supply shortages reflecting lopsided economic performance, slow growth of commodity producing sectors and the effects of natural calamities like floods but it is mainly driven by demand pressures from unbridled printing of notes by the State Bank, which is supposed to be the custodian of monetary stability. Unmindful of the consequences, the government continues to use inflationary sources of financing the budget, fearing the public reaction to imposition of taxes or curtailment of expenditure. People are losing confidence in the country’s currency and dollarisation and real estate holdings are being used as hedge against inflation. If the government does not change its method of financing the budget and bankrupt public-sector enterprises, hyper inflation is just around the corner.

Inflation is the cruelest form of taxation hitting the poorest segments of society the hardest and creating social and political unrest. It hurts growth, adds to poverty and economic crimes and generates a dual society that will ultimately promote a class war and social and political disorder. The government has little awareness that in using inflationary methods of budget financing it is on a slippery and dangerous slope.

The second area of vulnerability mentioned by Dr Lodhi is possible external debt default with enormous consequences for the country and its future. With export volume stagnating and imports rising, and remittances and bilateral foreign assistance likely to dry up, and with no prospect of a meaningful and sustainable stabilisation programme with the IMF, very soon foreign exchange reserves will begin to get hit by heavy payments for imports and debt servicing, including large repayments to the IMF. Once reserves begin to decline, market psychology will turn negative and accelerate the process of depletion of foreign exchange reserves. The fear of external debt default or actual default will adversely affect international trade, the exchange rate, remittance inflows and private investment and lead to commodity shortages and a sharp rise in prices. External debt default or even an eminent threat of it will set in motion an economic chaos that would threaten the very existence of the country.

Time is running out for the government and the country. The government needs to act, and act now. It must undertake major economic reforms to stabilise the economy and avoid hyper-inflation on the domestic side and breakdown of the balance of payment on the external front.

Dr Lodhi’s warnings should be taken seriously and not brushed aside as a usual dooms day scenario of a pessimist. It may be pointed out that she very optimistically edited a book recently entitled “Pakistan: Beyond the Crisis State” and predicted that “the country may yet escape its difficult first sixty-three years, resolve its problems and re-imagine its future. But doing so will need a capable leadership with the vision and determination to chart a new course.”

We all are waiting for the beginning of that period of vision and determination by a capable leadership that would create hope and promise for the country.

The writer is former governor of the State Bank of Pakistan

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby BijuShet » 09 Sep 2011 00:57

From Daily Times (posting in full). In case folks have forgotten a reminder about the plight of Sarbajit Singh who is currently a captive in the Kot Lakhpat Jail.

[url=http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011\09\08\story_8-9-2011_pg7_14]LHC to hear Sarbajit’s plea for medical checkup today[/url]
Staff Report

LAHORE: Chief justice of the Lahore High Court (LHC) will hear a petition today (Thursday), seeking medical checkup and proper medication of Indian convicted spy Sarbajit Singh who is currently a captive in the Kot Lakhpat Jail and is said to be suffering from a heart disease.

Singh’s counsel Advocate Awais Sheikh had moved the petition on Wednesday.

He stated that the convict was kept in solitary confinement without proper sunshine and physical exercise because of which he had developed backache, high blood pressure, eating disorder, migraine, insomnia, and high cholesterol. He stated that Singh’s life was in danger and he immediately needed medical attention.

He requested that the jail authorities be directed to provide medical assistance and better facilities to his client. He also requested that Singh be given yoga lessons in jail to bring him out of depression, stress, and to improve both his physical and mental health. The counsel further asked the court to take notice of a statement issued by prisons IG wherein he said that frequent meetings with a prisoner of the enemy country were not allowed, adding that such comments could have an adverse affect on Pakistan-India relations.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby brihaspati » 09 Sep 2011 01:23

shivajisisodia ji,
just to clarify - in that other discussion, I agreed to the "underlying" objectives in your proposals - which was essentially all about building and empowering a modern healthy nation, giving attention to a strong economic base, entrepreneurship, security of life and health, defence. But I do have problems with the formal mode in which you expressed some of them.

I did try to briefly point out those problems - about infrastructure, investments etc. Since this is a TSP thread, we perhaps should keep discussions on India at a minimum, or relevant to TSP issues.

ramana ji, and Prem bhai,

I suggested that the "rashtra" is weakening, which is way different from saying that "India" is "weak". The rashtra is one aspect of India, but not all of India or defines India entirely. The rashtra is a framework of state, with its coercive machinery to impose governance. The form of the rashtra may change even while the nation does not.


Pretension of weakness as a deep tactic is a valid excuse only if from time to time, that pretension is dropped in a real show of strength or tangible assertion of rights and objectives over relevant issues where "weakness" is being supposedly pretended.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby MurthyB » 09 Sep 2011 01:26

Pakistan has a new great movie: Bol
Plot (from wikipedia

This article's plot summary may be too long or excessively detailed. Please help improve it by removing unnecessary details and making it more concise. (July 2011)


Zainub (Humaima Malik) is sentenced to death. Mustafa (Atif Aslam) advises her to tell everyone her story before she dies. She is allowed a last wish by the President of Pakistan and she tells her story to a large gathering of media.

She says that during the partition of the subcontinent her family migrated from Delhi to Lahore. Her parents had a lot of daughters and then her mother (Zaib Rahman) gave birth to a child who is a hermaphrodite. Due to her family’s deteriorating financial situation, Her father Hakim Sahib(Manzar Sehbai) wants to kill the child at its birth but the mother doesn't let him. The child, named Saif Ullah, is home-schooled by a master, who Zainub scolds off for caressing him but becomes very skilled at sketching. Though he is immensely disliked by Hakim Sahib.

Zainub gets married and then divorces because she refuses to have a child due to her husband’s financial situation. Meanwhile Zainub’s mother keeps getting pregnant with babies who are still born. Zainub gets tubal ligation done on her mother to prevent future pregnancies. Hakim Sahib finds out about the surgery and is furious with Zainub. He also later becomes furious when Pakistan cricket team loses as the family was praying for its win listening to radio commentary. :rotfl:

Meanwhile, Zainab's sister Ayesha (Mahira Khan) learn's guitar and singing from Mustafa (Atif Aslam) and tours Lahore. Hakim Sahib is given money a masjid committee entrusted him with for building a mosque. Zainub discovers Saif Ullah while he’s wearing a woman’s clothes and is greatly perturbed by this and consults with Mustafa about Saifi. Mustafa takes Saifi to a guy who is in charge of drawings/paintings on trucks. Saifi is teased by perverts there and returns home after work crying his eyes out. Zainub tells him to be brave and that their father would be very happy when he sees Saifi’s earnings.

Saqa Kanjar(Shafqat Cheema) asks Hakim Sahib to teach Nazra Quran to children in his household. Upon finding out that Saqa is a Kanjar, Hakim Sahib denies his request. Saifi is tricked into getting inside a truck at work and is raped by several men at the painting place where he works. Mustafa (Atif Aslam) arrives at the scene but is fooled by the men there into believing that Saifi has left for home. Saifi is found later that night by a shemale and is returned to his house. Hakim Sahib, upon learning that his son was raped, chokes and kills his son with a plastic bag, but not before Zainub sees him doing it.

A police officer asks Hakim Sahib for 2 lacs in bribe if Hakim wants his son’s postmortem reports to remain a secret (so that people may not find out about his son’s gender). Hakim Sahib is forced to give the police officer the sum of money a masjid committee entrusted him with for building a mosque. Hakim Sahib is then forced to go to Saqa Kanjar to teach Quran to earn money to pay back his debts. At home Hakim Sahib washes and irons the notes of money Saqa gave him in advance, considering them dirty.

Mustafa (Atif Aslam) smuggles Ayesha (Mahira Khan), Mustafa’s love interest and singing partner, to a concert where they both sing. Later Hakim Sahib is asked by Mustafa’s father for his daughter’s hand, but he says no pointing out that he wouldn’t marry his daughter in a Shiah family. He then revisits a marriage bureau giving up conditions for the groom to be Sayyid but couldn't give dowry.

The Masjid committee asks Hakim Sahib for their money back. Hakim then goes to Saqa who proposes that Hakim should have a daughter with Saqa’s daughter (Iman Ali) for money. Saqa would keep the child if it was a girl and Hakim could take it if it was a boy. Hakim agrees to this, but asks Saqa not to disclose this pact.

Mustafa and Ayesha, and Hakim Sahib and Mina (Iman Ali), get married simultaneously. When Hakim Sahib returns home after spending the night with Mina, Zainub tells him that she got Mustafa and Ayesha married. Hakim goes crazy with anger and beats her up.

A reporter while listening to Zainub's story finds her innocent before Zainub ends the story. The reporter calls up a guy who works with the President to get the death sentence postponed or get the case reopened. But he denies any help.

Hakim Sahib tells his friends at the Masjid committee that he is very fed up with his daughter Zainub, and that either of them would die at the hands of the other. The reporter calls the official again and pressurizes him to release Zainub.

The reporter calls the ministry official again.

Hakim Sahib and Mina have a daughter. He asks Mina to give their daughter to him and he’ll leave the city to keep her safe from the kanjars. Saqa overhears this and kicks Hakim out of his house. He tells Hakim that if he ever tried to take the baby girl away he would take all his daughters and turn them into cheap prostitutes.

Later Mina comes to Hakim sahib’s place to give him his daughter. Upon finding out who the child is Hakim’s wife fights with him and he beats her up. She then tells her daughters about their father’s shameful acts. Zainub tells her father that they will all leave the house the following day and if he tried to stop them she will kill him.

Saqa Kanjar arrives at Hakim sahib’s place with some men and crashes open the main door. Hakim sahaib tries to kill his baby girl to save her from Saqa but is killed by a fatal blow on the head by Zainub. Saqa and his men search the house for the baby. He asks Zainub where the baby was and she replies that her father killed the baby and had disposed the body.

The police officer in charge of Zainub’s death tells the reporters that it was time for them to leave.

Zainub says that she took revenge from her father for giving birth to her. She questions why only killing someone is a crime and why giving birth is not. She asks that why was having legitimate children and then making their life hell is right, but having illegitimate children wasn’t. She asks that if parents who couldn’t adequately provide for their children give birth to them. She argues that giving birth to children one can’t afford should be a considered wrong and a crime too.

Zainub is then hanged.

The reporter, Rashda, speaks on the news about what Zainub had just said.

The president calls a meeting about what Zainub had just questioned.

The movie ends up showing Zainub's family struggling by opening a small restaurant outside their palace looking house lured by on goers with temptation. The daughters of the hakim make it possible to earn in a respectable way. They slowly but gradually builds up a cafe named "Zainab's cafe" which helps them to raise their living standard. The hakim sisters finally makes it big with a small start. They also takes care of the their eighth sister that they saved from her father's brutality.


So let's see:

Sentencing to death
Beating up women
Killing babies
Caste/sect prejudice
Shemales
Hijras
Man-on-hijra rape
Making babies like Lego factory makes legos
Paint jobs
Legitimate and illegitimate children
Building mosques
Cross dressing
Cricket team losing
Child molestation
Efforts at "purifying"
Prostitution and Pimping
Bribery
and
"escape" from India

AND oh oh oh, it's got "Hakim" saab :twisted:
Yup, this movies got it all. Now which BRF member wrote the screenplay :twisted: ?

Mahendra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4414
Joined: 11 Aug 2007 17:20
Location: Chronicling Bakistan's Tryst with Dysentery

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Mahendra » 09 Sep 2011 02:00

WTF? Bismillah, even Benis mullahs cannot come up with a plot like that

I'm sure our own Hakim from Pindaliyon ka Gooda will enjoy the role of Hakim saab


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