Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

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Y I Patel
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Y I Patel » 09 Sep 2011 02:03

shiv wrote:
shiv wrote:Adding a few more thoughts.

I think it is important to point out that there is a very real Islamic jihad/ religious war component in Pakistan constant terrorist attack against India. With virtually no non Muslims Pakistan does not need secularism and they realise that sparking a religious war in India will do exactly what is needed:
1. Kill Secularism in India and the current structure of the Indian state
2. Spark of the very Muslim-non Muslim tensions that created Pakistan in the first place.

This too is a very good strategy. In fact if Indian Muslims rose up against the non Muslims in India, whether they win or lose it would serve Pakistan's purpose. If they win, it proves the superiority of Islam. if they lose, it proves the necessity of Pakistan.

If Indian Muslims do not rise up against non Muslims, the way to provoke them is to make Hindus rise up against Muslims. If Hindus rise against indian Muslims, maybe a percentage of Indian Muslims will fight. Their fight will be Pakistan fight. Their victory will be Pakistan victory. Their defeat will also be Pakistan's victory, creating martyrs who prove that Pakistan is necessary.

So I think it is important to be absolutely open and public about the fact that Pakistan is fighting and exceedingly intelligent and well conceived religious war against India that puts India in a losing situation whether Hindus rise up or Muslims rise up. The worst possible thing for Pakistan is continuing communal amity in India. That reduces the Pakistan plan from the success of "Direct action day" to the random killings of Dehli HC/26-11/Kaluchak etc


It's brilliant but not perfect. It will come to naught if India has a muslim PM. A muslim PM can make it a green on green battle, with dhimmis supporting one green against another.

Marathas did it. 1857 freedom fighters did it. Gandhiji wanted Congress to do the same by making Jinnah the PM, but they did not. I think this is what Jaswant Singh was getting at in his book which got him expelled.

It's not impossible. Rahul mian needs to revert to his grandpa's original surname, and we are set.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby RajeshA » 09 Sep 2011 02:15

BijuShet wrote:From The News - Opinion piece (posting in full). TSP economy will get very interesting in the next 2-3 years. The slow squeeze of poverty, rising inflation, falling trade and a rupee worth nothing will make TSP abduls suffer a fate, Allah usually reserves for the unfaithfools.

From economic crisis to collapse

India should start buying food-grain from Pakistani feudals now through Wagah. Let the prices go even higher.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby RajeshA » 09 Sep 2011 02:20

Y I Patel wrote:It's not impossible. Rahul mian needs to revert to his grandpa's original surname, and we are set.
One Grandpa was a Parsi! One was a Roman Catholic! How does that help?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Prem » 09 Sep 2011 02:41

RajeshA wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:It's not impossible. Rahul mian needs to revert to his grandpa's original surname, and we are set.
One Grandpa was a Parsi! One was a Roman Catholic! How does that help?

Go Back further, dig deep for another generation or so and Khandaniat will known.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Y I Patel » 09 Sep 2011 02:43

RajeshA wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:It's not impossible. Rahul mian needs to revert to his grandpa's original surname, and we are set.
One Grandpa was a Parsi! One was a Roman Catholic! How does that help?



Persian heritage is something country hicks from farther up north really prized. The building blocks are there, including surname. Other steps, such as conversion, are entirely dependent on will. Dynasty needs to make small sacrifice for Takht aur Taj.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby RajeshA » 09 Sep 2011 03:00

OT

I think his name was Feroze Faredoon, before it was changed to Gandhi.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby hnair » 09 Sep 2011 03:57

:rotfl: I, from deep South of India, am lost at these talks of strange dead people who apparently used other strange dead people to do green on green.

Kalam-sahib had far more credentials than a Dynasty scion, in case anyone forgets.

Something is seriously effed up if people here in BRF is talking about a Green PM for a country like India that has global influence, if the sole purpose of such a PM is to deal with a pissant little neighbour who is a joke even amongst green countries.

Can I go back to blaming pakis for the blasts and ask for some dossier action?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Rahul M » 09 Sep 2011 04:01

I, from the fish eating east second that sentiment. :lol:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby parsuram » 09 Sep 2011 05:03

HNair: Thank you. Enough already, all this " talking up the pakis". No amount of talking them up will make them anything more than what they are.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby JwalaMukhi » 09 Sep 2011 05:19

Have to count on SDREs to provide humor. Pakis must be feeling very seriously elated. Pakis exhibit their core competency in killing wimmen, children and hapless SDREs and some SDREs are shaking in their boots and calling for a green PM.
Some one said about India " a few right blows at the loose joints to India and it will be history". Looks like pakis must be now thinking a few more exhibitions of their core competency and all SDREs will be claiming arap ancestry and turn green.
Project Green is going to be easy as a piece of pindi channa...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shiv » 09 Sep 2011 05:32

MurthyB wrote:
So let's see:

Sentencing to death
Beating up women
Killing babies
Caste/sect prejudice
Shemales
Hijras
Man-on-hijra rape
Making babies like Lego factory makes legos
Paint jobs
Legitimate and illegitimate children
Building mosques
Cross dressing
Cricket team losing
Child molestation
Efforts at "purifying"
Prostitution and Pimping
Bribery
and
"escape" from India

AND oh oh oh, it's got "Hakim" saab :twisted:
Yup, this movies got it all. Now which BRF member wrote the screenplay :twisted: ?


You forgot Pakistani birth control and good Engliss
which helps them to raise their living standard. The hakim sisters finally makes it big with a small start. They also takes care of the their eighth sister that they saved from her father's brutality.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby parsuram » 09 Sep 2011 05:33

I do believe we need a collaborative effort on some thing like "101 uses for a dead paki terrorist" get the balance back on this forum. Humor humor.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby MurthyB » 09 Sep 2011 06:01

shiv wrote:You forgot Pakistani birth control and good Engliss


I forgot the biggest doozy of them all:

The movie ends up showing Zainub's family struggling by opening a small restaurant outside their palace looking house lured by on goers with temptation. The daughters of the hakim make it possible to earn in a respectable way. They slowly but gradually builds up a cafe named "Zainab's cafe" which helps them to raise their living standard.


Palace looking house
Zainab's cafe

Perfect RAPE eyewash to present Bakistan as a TFTA country.

This movie is metaphorical onlee :lol:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Airavat » 09 Sep 2011 07:02

The top brass of the Pakistan Army discussed the ongoing rescue operation in flood affected areas of interior Sindh in the 142nd Corps Commanders Conference held at Army General Headquarters in Rawalpindi on Thursday.

Sources added that the Corps Commanders were also briefed on the ongoing operation by the ISI in Quetta during which three Al-Qaeda members were arrested.

The army leadership was also briefed about the situation on the Pak-Afghan border, discussing the Afghan Taliban attack on Chitral Scouts, during the meeting.

Not to mention the Delhi blast. :evil:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Rudradev » 09 Sep 2011 07:40

ShauryaT wrote:BK is not saying 20 KT is all we have. What he is saying is 20KT is all we have proven and hence the most credible. GOI has been trying to avoid wars forever with TSP. Even when we have wars, these wars are more about a battle of maneuvers than wars with substantial geopolitical aims (except 1971). None of the wars with TSP (including 71) have been wars of attrition or decimation. So, while the IA arms for such an event, the political leadership has no intention of executing, even with the capability.




Shaurya,

We would not ask any jawan to fly in a chopper, fire a gun or even eat the contents of an MRE packet which had not been thoroughly tested and proven hundreds of times over. If the only N-weapons we have proven are 20 kT weapons, then the only N-weapons we have are 20 kT weapons.

I agree with your interpretation of what he is saying. To go further, I think that with his Prithvi criticism, he is saying that this recessed, nuanced posture based on dial-a-sub-KT yield weapons (alluded to by AM Asthana in his interview) is pointless. In fact even Asthana recognizes this and says a conventional retaliation is preferable.

It is easy to understand why. If we use a sub-kT tactical nuclear weapon on an LeT site in say Neelam Valley (as Asthana suggested in the event of a JDAM attack) and PLA troops happen to be in the vicinity... in fact they already ARE in the vicinity... then what?

Even if one accepts the argument that Pakistani terrorists are not non-state actors and a nuke retaliation on a Paki terrorist training camp was justified... we have "nuked first" against China no? Does this open the gates for China to use multi-MT warheads on us in retaliation? Reversing the positions, India has often said that even if Pakistan uses a tactical nuke on an advancing column of IA it opens the gates for a massive nuclear retaliation by us against Pakistan. So why could that same logic not be applied to China-India?

And after that, what next? BK is quite categorical in stating that our own 20kT weapons are a piffling nonentity compared to those Chinese warheads. Ultimately, to decry BK's views as "maximalist" is meaningless. Context is everything. In a conflict, context can change so fast that what was "maximalist" ten minutes ago is "minimum deterrent" against further escalation now.

We may think that picking up a stone is a "minimum deterrent" while pulling out a gun is "maximalist"... but once the first stone is thrown and the riot starts, once bones break and heads crack, how long does it take for people who have guns to pull them out?


What BK is saying, no point to build capabilities, that do not match likely political strategy. His missile threat comment (read Prithvi) was specifically in that context. He is a known propagator of the theory of predictability which promotes stability, when it comes to nuclear weapons. Tactical nuclear weapons promote instability.


We cannot afford to be in the position of not having a gun (a real gun that is KNOWN to work, not a dummy replica) because a stone can be thrown at us at any time. Replying to a stone with another stone is daft. And BK is absolutely right that having, or even talking about tactical nukes adds to instability. GOI spokesmen talking about our willingness to use "stones" against LeT camps, only adds to the likelihood that a "riot" will start... and then if we don't have a "gun" we're in real trouble.

There is no perfect deterrent but a gun that is known to work, is the closest we can hope to get. If our neighbours see it go off they will stay polite. OTOH, for us to brandish a stone may be worse than nothing... it may simply be better to keep walking and hanging our head humbly, in the hope that another stone doesn't get thrown at us.
Last edited by Rudradev on 09 Sep 2011 07:48, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Rudradev » 09 Sep 2011 07:56

^^^ Thank you Geelani Sahab. May you live to be a thousand, and scuttle a million more WKK sellout compromises through sheer Islamist intransigence. The gentlemen arguing that India should have a Green PM... how about SAS Geelani? :mrgreen:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby A_Gupta » 09 Sep 2011 08:10

Read the original cable here:
http://wikileaks.org/cable/2006/04/06ISLAMABAD5767.html

There is an April 2, 2006 article in the daily times referenced in that cable.
Read that story here:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 006_pg7_15

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Rudradev » 09 Sep 2011 08:17

BTW, one thing I'm reading a lot of in the Karnad thread, is that never mind if P-2 failed to establish it... if need be we can assemble and test a 200kT boosted fission device in under a month.

Yes. And when the riot starts and stones are breaking my windows, I can go into the kitchen, melt down a tubelight holder, attach a pipe fitting, insert one .303 slug that I found somewhere many years ago, and I will have an A-class ghoda ready to go. No worries, have curry. Hack-thoo.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby A_Gupta » 09 Sep 2011 08:18

Also this excerpt (not from the cable):
Tribune, 3 April 2006, 3 April 2006
JKLF accuses Pak of taking U-turn on Kashmir
NEW DELHI: Accusing Islamabad of making a U-turn on Kashmir more than a dozen times, the oldest Kashmiri separatist organisation, JKLF, has dismissed claim that Pakistan founder Mohammed Ali Jinnah had ever claimed Kashmir to be an integral part of Pakistan. "I will mention the performance of Pakistan for the resolution of this longstanding issue and will never hesitate to say that neither the direction nor the pace of endeavours that the Pakistani rulers have so far taken are correct," JKLF Chief Amanullah Khan was quoted by Pakistani daily 'The Daily Times'. Mr Khan was critical of proposals by Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf and said they mainly lead to "division" of Kashmir instead of its "independence". He said since 1947, Pakistan had taken at least 15 U-turns on its Kashmir policy.

The Pakistani rulers would never shy away from compromising on their previous stances whenever they think the situation has changed, he added.


The original daily times article is here:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 006_pg7_21

Reproducing it in full, it is in the same newspaper issue as the April 2, 2006 referred to in the cable, but the cable failed to mention it. Surely JKLF statement is as significant as HuM statement?

JKLF says Pakistan’s Kashmir policies not on the right track

* Says India and Pakistan have not moved an inch forward to settle the issue
* Musharraf’s proposals contradictory

Staff Report

KARACHI: Chief of the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) Amanullah Khan said on Saturday that the Pakistani government’s policies about the resolution of the Kashmir conflict were not on the right track and neither of the two nuclear-armed neighbours had moved a single inch forward in the right direction.

“I will mention the performance of Pakistan for the resolution of this longstanding issue and will never hesitate to say that neither the direction nor the pace of the endeavours that the Pakistani rulers have so far taken are correct,” Khan said at a press conference at the Karachi Press Club.

Since 1999, when then prime minister Nawaz Sharif and his Indian counterpart Atal Behari Vajpayee had engaged in Confidence Building Measures (CBMs), the countries had not moved a single inch forward to resolve the issue.

Khan was critical of the host of proposals suggested by President Pervez Musharraf and said that they mainly led to the division of Kashmir instead of its independence. “Go through all the agreements and declarations that the leaderships of the two countries have signed so far and you would clearly see that not a single one of them suggests engaging the Kashmiri people in the dialogue. The two governments are only serving their own interests; they are fighting for the territory and not the people living there,” Khan said.

Most of the Kashmiri parties across the line of divide were toeing the policies of India and Pakistan and it was difficult to introduce any popular yet unbiased leadership to the peace dialogue.

Khan disagreed with a suggestion recently made by Yasin Malik, a leader of his own faction of the JKLF in Indian-held Kashmir, recommending a referendum in the entire valley to elect popular leadership to be engaged in the trilateral dialogue. “Such a process will not ensure that the popular leadership would fight for the people of Kashmir because at the table those leaders could bargain against the interests of Kashmir.

“Whether the negotiations are bilateral or trilateral, they should ensure an independent Kashmir with a democratic and secular state with friendly ties with all its neighbours,” Khan said.

The JKLF leaders claimed that since 1947, Pakistan had taken at least 15 U-turns on its Kashmir policy and the Pakistani rulers would never shy from compromising on their previous stances whenever they thought that the situation had changed. “Besides, I would contest [their] persistent claim that Quaid-e-Azam had said in one of his speeches that Kashmir was an integral part of Pakistan. No one would find such narrations in any of the speeches the Quaid made till his death,” said the JKLF chief.

President Musharraf had constantly contradicted himself, Khan added. “In 2004, General Musharraf had told us at a reception hosted by Shaikh Rashid, that autonomy might be one of the solutions to the Kashmir issue but at the recent Pagwash Conference, he told us that an autonomous Kashmir was not applicable. He is constantly contradicting himself.”

Khan said the demilitarisation of Kashmir should be the beginning of the settlement and not the ultimate solution to the conflict. His party had evolved a roadmap according to which an independent united Kashmir would be a secular state and after fifteen years to this status its people should decide in a referendum whether they wanted to be independent or go along with any of its neighbours – Pakistan or India.

Khan said there was a large part of Kashmir that had been annexed by China but his party did not want to touch this controversy because it would make the issue more complex.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Y I Patel » 09 Sep 2011 08:33

If there is to be a firing squad, it should be directed only at me - I am the one who suggested a green PM.

There is actually a range of places I can take this, including some pretty dark corners that I thought I was begining to allude to. But I'll probably hate myself for going there, and hopefully adminullahs would declare me wajab ul qatl if I do end up there. So let me just expand on the brighter paths I can chart out.

I base my premise on observed reality of a country that reelected a government which has dual leadership represented by Man Mohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi, and I do not see why the same polity should necessarily be allergic to an arrangement where there is another administrator of minority background as the administrative lead of the government. Someone like Wajahat Habibullah comes to mind, atleast for the "good" reasons I was thinking of. While I have great respect for President APJ Kalam, I think India has plenty of other lower profile Muslim administrators of great all-round ability.

And my positive reason would apply if I am not looking to defeat a pipsqueak travesty of history called Pakistan, but am looking to come to terms with a reality called Islam in Akhand Bharat. Of course, I am not unmindful that a true, potent Musalman as India's PM would spell the end of Pakistan without a shot being fired, and that is because I would view Pakistan as a vital part of India that I would want to reassimilate. Since I cannot turn back time, I cannot achieve such an end without defeating the idea of Pakistan or embracing the reality of Islam in India. Ten thousand Shaktis will not defeat that Idea. One real Musalman will. Islam does not distinguish between India and Pakistan. Islam is India's heritage, and it can be India's sword to use.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby abhishek_sharma » 09 Sep 2011 08:39

Wow...this thread never fails to surprise me. With friends like these ...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shiv » 09 Sep 2011 08:42

Rudradev wrote:BTW, one thing I'm reading a lot of in the Karnad thread, is that never mind if P-2 failed to establish it... if need be we can assemble and test a 200kT boosted fission device in under a month.

Yes. And when the riot starts and stones are breaking my windows, I can go into the kitchen, melt down a tubelight holder, attach a pipe fitting, insert one .303 slug that I found somewhere many years ago, and I will have an A-class ghoda ready to go. No worries, have curry. Hack-thoo.


There would be no need to actually test such a device. It would have to be used "for what it is worth". The days of overt live nuclear testing are over. If the people who build it are able to say that it has a 99 % probability of yielding 25 kt, 90% probability of yielding at least 50kt and only a 60% probability of yielding 200 kt it would still have to be used if it came to that.

In any case if it was going to be used against Chinese city it would not be military planners planning specific goals. It would be a bunch of desperate people throwing whatever they have for whatever effect it can give them.

More thoughts on this here:
viewtopic.php?p=1160826#p1160826
Last edited by shiv on 09 Sep 2011 08:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Rudradev » 09 Sep 2011 08:49

YI Patel ji, I understand the logic behind your suggestion. I don't agree with it for way too many reasons to go into here, including what a realistic (as opposed to idealized) definition of a "Real Mussalman" is, and why this is a special case that stands quite apart from Manmohan Singh or Sonia Gandhi (little enough regard as I have for them, their "minority" identities have nothing to do with it.) But then I may be going down the wajib-ul-qatl path as well.

Suffice it to say that I have interacted with Wajahat Habibullah in a personal capacity. I have seen the views he expresses in semi-private. If you want a PM who talks of Kashmiri Muslims as victims of enforced cultural assimilation by India, of how even pre-1953 style autonomy (the maximum integration he is willing to countenance) still demands a soul-wrenching compromise of identity from Kashmiri Muslims, of how Sardar Patel and not Sheikh Abdullah played the Indian government foul in the 1950s... well, he's your man. One step up from Mirwaiz Umer Farooq and two steps up from Geelani.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Avinash R » 09 Sep 2011 08:58

Y I Patel wrote:And my positive reason would apply if I am not looking to defeat a pipsqueak travesty of history called Pakistan, but am looking to come to terms with a reality called Islam in Akhand Bharat. Of course, I am not unmindful that a true, potent Musalman as India's PM would spell the end of Pakistan without a shot being fired, and that is because I would view Pakistan as a vital part of India that I would want to reassimilate. Since I cannot turn back time, I cannot achieve such an end without defeating the idea of Pakistan or embracing the reality of Islam in India. Ten thousand Shaktis will not defeat that Idea. One real Musalman will. Islam does not distinguish between India and Pakistan.


These mad ramblings are similar in nature to that of jinaah's. Please explain in detail how your mythical "true potent Musalman" "without a shot being fired" will destroy pakistan?

Y I Patel wrote:Islam is India's heritage, and it can be India's sword to use.


Islam is NOT our heritage, its an religion with roots in arabia.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby abhishek_sharma » 09 Sep 2011 08:59

‘India supports for EU waiver on trade preferences to Pak’: Pakistan

Pakistan on Thursday claimed India had assured Islamabad that it would not make any further comment at the World Trade Organisation's (WTO) Council for Trade in Goods on the time-bound European Union (E.U.) waiver on trade preferences that was offered to Pakistan to help recover from last year's devastating floods.

Asked about India's continuing opposition to the E.U. waiver, Foreign Office spokesperson Tehmina Janjua said the Indian leadership, including Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, had assured Pakistan that it would refrain from comment at future WTO meetings on the issue.

...

Delhi blast

Meanwhile, Pakistan was also appreciative of the maturity shown by the Indian leadership in not rushing to point accusing fingers after the Delhi High Court blast on Wednesday.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shiv » 09 Sep 2011 09:00

Y I Patel wrote:If there is to be a firing squad, it should be directed only at me - I am the one who suggested a green PM.


That would be a Pakistan centric PM. I would accept any PM, any type if he was educated and wise and pro-India as well as anti-corruption. Too often pro-India polticians are deeply corrupt. I was told yesterday that Yediyurappa was a loyal "model" RSS worker. Being Muslim would be a secondary thing as far as I am concerned.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby SSridhar » 09 Sep 2011 09:03

A_Gupta wrote:Read the original cable here:
http://wikileaks.org/cable/2006/04/06ISLAMABAD5767.html

The WikiLeaks cable and the acknowledgement therein by Malik and his deputy of the many behind-the-scene facilitations by the GotUS confirms the deep involvement of the US in India-TSP talks.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Karna_A » 09 Sep 2011 09:08

Y I Patel wrote:If there is to be a firing squad, it should be directed only at me - I am the one who suggested a green PM.
.


Yes a green PM, but who is a closet Akhand Bharti who converted to Green just to advance his political career, while always being true to Indic ideology can do the job.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby ArmenT » 09 Sep 2011 09:13

Avinash R wrote:
Y I Patel wrote:Islam is India's heritage, and it can be India's sword to use.


Islam is NOT our heritage, its an religion with roots in arabia.

Saar ji, it has become part of India's heritage, whether you like it or not. Question is, how does India use it to advantage.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby ramana » 09 Sep 2011 09:15

Not again.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby vic » 09 Sep 2011 09:25

I think India should not test on its soil. We need to have a Paltu puppy to do the needful on its soil.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby shiv » 09 Sep 2011 09:26

ArmenT wrote:
Avinash R wrote:
Islam is NOT our heritage, its an religion with roots in arabia.

Saar ji, it has become part of India's heritage, whether you like it or not. Question is, how does India use it to advantage.



What I find piskolgically fascinating about the endless argument is as follows.
If you apply the following definitions to Islam then it is not our heritage:
  • Pakistanis represent true Islam
  • Arab Islam is the only true Islam
  • True Islam does not allow music, art or anything remotely resembling worship of a physical object

But if Islam the nature of Islam can be seen as having been "bent" in various places to accommodate local culture, the claiming that there is no local influence and no local roots gets more difficult.

In a sense when we reject Pakistan and Islam, we are accepting the Pakistani verrion of the story of the subcontinent. There is some merit in rejecting Pakistan but not Islam, especially in the way it has chosen to dilute its own Arabian dryness with the moist slush of India, and telling Pakis to go and fuk themselves.

I am endlessly fascinated by the Indonesian term for Ramzan - "Hari raya puasa" where the "puasa" seems to be derived from "upvaas". The word in Kannada is "upvaasa"
Last edited by shiv on 09 Sep 2011 09:37, edited 1 time in total.

ArmenT
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby ArmenT » 09 Sep 2011 09:28

Jo Pakistan mein gandu, woh UK mein bhi gandu...
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/police-sting-jihad-pair-guilty-154005408.html
Police sting jihad pair convicted
...
Pakistani-born British citizen Munir Farooqi, 54, was at the centre of a plot to radicalise and persuade the officers to "fight, kill and die" in a holy war in Afghanistan.
Farooqi, of Victoria Terrace, Longsight, Manchester, was convicted of preparing for acts of terrorism, three counts of soliciting to murder and one count of dissemination of terrorist publications, following a four-month trial at Manchester Crown Court.
British Muslim convert Matthew Newton, 29, of Rydal Walk, Stalybridge, Tameside, was convicted of preparing for acts of terrorism and two counts of dissemination of terrorist publications.
Farooqi's son, Harris Farooqi, 28, of Stockport Road, Levenshulme, Manchester, was cleared of one count of engaging in conduct for the preparation of terrorism and discharged from the court a free man.
.....

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby merlin » 09 Sep 2011 09:33

abhishek_sharma wrote:Wow...this thread never fails to surprise me. With friends like these ...


We really do have millions upon millions like these in our country. So why not outside?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby SSridhar » 09 Sep 2011 09:42

CPC sought Jama'at-e-Islami's Support
This was reported then, WikiLeaks sheds more light.
Fears over the resurgence of religious extremist groups in Xinjiang and increasing lack of confidence in the Pakistani government's ability to crack down on terror were the likely factors behind the Communist Party of China's unexpected move to sign its first ever cooperation agreement with an Islamist political party in 2009, leaked United States Embassy cables suggest.

The CPC sought the support of Pakistan's Jamaat-e-Islaami (JI) to tackle “radicalised” groups who were backing separatists in Xinjiang, scholars in official Chinese think-tanks and Afghan diplomats told U.S. officials, according to a cable from March 2009 that was among the last tranche of cables released by Wikileaks.

The cable underscores China's long-persisting concerns over the spread of extremism from neighbouring Pakistan, voiced recently following attacks in Kashgar and Hotan .

In early 2009, China decided it wanted to “directly deal with JI” because radicalised groups “were suspicious of Chinese interests in Pakistan and supported Xinjiang separatists,” Ye Hailin, a scholar at the official Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS), a think-tank close to the Chinese government, reportedly told U.S. officials. The JI, China believed, had “strong influence” on those groups.{Several decades back, JI leadership passed into Pakhtun hands and had remained so ever since. That does not mean that if the JI leadership does not agree with a particularly virulent Taliban viewpoint they would be tolerated. Tribal jirga and maliks, traditionally the implementors of Pashtunwali code, have been mercilessly eliminated in their hundreds leaving the sub-tribes and sub-clans with no leadership who then capitulated to Taliban demands out of fear, out of misplaced sympathy and out of necessity. JI and indeed the rest of Pakistan would be no exception, because the rest of Pakisan is still a biradari-based society}

“The maliks can help us very much,” Mr. Yi was quoted as saying.

Sovereignty

His comments were echoed by Mirwais Nab, a First Secretary at the Afghan Embassy in Beijing, who said the CPC's agreement with JI both “legitimised Chinese sovereignty over Xinjiang and demonstrated that the Chinese no longer believed they could rely on the Pakistan government… alone to look after its interests”.{It is a false sense of legitimacy felt by the CPC because JI does not determine the policies of AQAM}

Mr. Nab claimed that officials in the CPC Central Committee's International Department, which handles party-to-party ties and directs the Foreign Ministry, had told him China “would invest in projects in JI-friendly areas in the FATA [Bajaur and Mohmand]” regions.

The MoU signed between the CPC and the JI in early 2009 called for cooperation on justice, security and development, with the JI specifically agreeing to back China on Xinjiang.{This came about because of Zardari's efforts. JI is normally a sarkari organization and supports anybody in power just like Fazlr Rehman's JUI-F}

Han Hua, an influential South Asia scholar at Peking University, told U.S. officials the deal between the CPC and JI “simply reflected the CPC's desire to show respect for Muslim culture and religion without lending support to radicalised elements in Pakistan”.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby chetak » 09 Sep 2011 09:42

abhishek_sharma wrote:‘India supports for EU waiver on trade preferences to Pak’: Pakistan

Pakistan on Thursday claimed India had assured Islamabad that it would not make any further comment at the World Trade Organisation's (WTO) Council for Trade in Goods on the time-bound European Union (E.U.) waiver on trade preferences that was offered to Pakistan to help recover from last year's devastating floods.

Asked about India's continuing opposition to the E.U. waiver, Foreign Office spokesperson Tehmina Janjua said the Indian leadership, including Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, had assured Pakistan that it would refrain from comment at future WTO meetings on the issue.

...

Delhi blast

Meanwhile, Pakistan was also appreciative of the maturity shown by the Indian leadership in not rushing to point accusing fingers after the Delhi High Court blast on Wednesday.



So the Indian leadership is both mature and generous?? :D

At whose cost??

What about the repeated and malicious approach to arbitrators on IWT related issues? No commitment from their side about this?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby sum » 09 Sep 2011 09:46

Someone like Wajahat Habibullah comes to mind, atleast for the "good" reasons I was thinking of.

If Wajahat Habibullah is a PM candidate, we could as well have Imam Bukhari as PM .

Seriously, have you even heard Habibullah speaking on topics like J&K and "secularism" on TV debates? He would put even Diggy and Zaid Hamid to shame...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Kanson » 09 Sep 2011 10:58

@ Rudradev, Nice explanation on the dynamics of Mil-ind complex. I guess that probably answers Rohitvat's question on Pak terror strategy. @Rohitvat, Strategy is keep one more arm against India. And to maintain that it needs, as Rudradev explained, these kind of terror strikes. Primary goal is to remind India about them and their superiority over us and not to leave us to live in Peace. Simple way to say is it is the Strategy of thousand cuts.

Rudradev wrote:Now to Kanson's question about Taiwan. If PRC wanted a war, why would they pick India and not Taiwan? I think the answer is, they're still not sure (despite US' apparent weakness) that US and Japan will not rush to Taiwan's defense. However, they may calculate that this is not true of India. With Pakistan on their side, and US staying out of the conflict, the PRC Militarists may feel more confident of securing a military "victory" against India than one against Taiwan.
You argument is that, to monetize debt, war is a high return low risk option compared to other options for China. Based on that, I'm questioning, to have further high return with lower risk, is it not China should choose Taiwan than India for that? US and other powers can join India too if there is a conflict. What stops them? Already there are several joint exercises with US and other countries. Is it not Nehru requested US help during '62 war and US obliged? And if the luck turns other way, Tibet card can be played leading possibly to their liberation. And India is not a push over like Taiwan. So with such several more risks compared to attacking Taiwan and meager return, from your argument, why would China choose to attack India than Taiwan?


Rudradev wrote:Also, Kanson, about Agni V testing this year. If it happens, it is a good thing. It is a sign that we are not idly waiting with the axe over our heads, that we are trying to close the window of opportunity for China to prosecute a two-front war against us. Still, for the present Agni V is untested and I don't know if Agni III is even deployed. IF what Bharat Karnad says is true, 20kT weapons is the most we have. So the assessment, that GOI is trying very hard to avoid war by courting certain factions within Pakistan, holds good.

On Agni-III:
He said that the 3,000-km range Agni-III missile has already been inducted into the armed forces. “Agni-III is already inducted. Its development has been completed and is under production,” he said.
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article2073999.ece

Ok, If late K. Sub says, we have 80 KT weapon, then BK can't be true right? What is the premises of "most" here? If we go by the various statements/reports, these 20 KT most probably are air-droppable free falling bombs initially we have assembled. Missiles do have different warheads(again based on reports in public domain).

that GOI is trying very hard to avoid war by courting certain factions within Pakistan, holds good
I feel, this is mere a hypothesis. I couldn't see any substantiating facts to support this hypothesis. First you need establish it is GoI that is trying very hard and not Pak factions. Only if GoI is trying very hard then we have to find out why GoI is trying very hard. Of several reasons behind that, avoiding war is one possible ...possible reason. I couldn't agree with this angle of argument.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 20

Postby Kanson » 09 Sep 2011 11:29

Can India do an operation like the US did in Abbottabad?

By Col R Hariharan

Can Indian security forces carry out a special operation like the US SEALS did in Abbottabad?

The US SEALS struck within the backyard of Pak military establishment but in 40 minutes killed the most wanted terrorist of the decade Osama bin Laden. As the TV and other media had a field day covering the operation and its aftermath, the inevitable question why can't India carryout an operation like that to catch any of the 20-odd India's most wanted terrorists hiding in Pakistan was raised.

In answering it we must be realistic; we should not even contemplate such overseas special operations unless we fulfil three basic parameters for their success: strong national leadership with decision making ability as demonstrated by President Obama, realtime intelligence about the target before, during and after the operations, and technical support system including air lift and communication for special forces. I fear at present we do not fulfil any of these three basic parameters.

Of course, Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh had been forthright on the subject; answering a question on the subject in a press meet in Kabul, he said: "We are the United States." So we can expect to wallow in our rhetoric and do nothing to acquire new capabilities to make our Special Forces, really special.
Last edited by Kanson on 09 Sep 2011 11:29, edited 1 time in total.


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