Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 10 Sep 2011 01:15

From SanFran Chronical - SFGATE breaking news
NYC man denies helping terror group in fight plot

By TOM HAYS, Associated Press
Friday, September 9, 2011 (09-09) 13:02 PDT NEW YORK, (AP) --

A New York City resident accused of providing material support to a terrorist organization by plotting to travel to Pakistan to join a radical fighting group has pleaded not guilty.

Albanian citizen Agron Hasbajrami (ah-GRAHN' hahs-bah-ruh-MEE') was charged in an indictment unsealed Friday in federal court in Brooklyn. The indictment says he exchanged email messages with a contact in Pakistan and expressed a desire to die as a martyr.

Authorities say he was planning to join the contact's fighting group, which had killed American troops.

They say he was arrested Tuesday at John F. Kennedy International Airport when he arrived to board a flight to Turkey. They say he was carrying a tent, boots and cold-weather gear.

He could face up to 15 years in prison if convicted.

....

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 10 Sep 2011 01:20

From WSJ Blog. Something postive from the blast yesterday. WKKwallas need a dose of reality from time to time.
India Lawyers Cancel Pakistan Trip Over Blast.

By Tom Wright
Despite a lack of evidence about who carried out the Delhi High Court attack this week, the All India Bar Association isn’t waiting to take action.

The association, whose members, including retired judges, were supposed to leave today for a goodwill trip to Pakistan. But it canceled the visit “in protest” over the attack, which suggests that the association is pointing the finger across the border. Two lawyers died in the attack.

The team was supposed to meet Pakistan Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani and other senior government officials.

“In our next visit to Pak, we will persuade the Govt. of Pakistan to take stern action against all who are involved in terrorist activities in India,” a statement from the association quoted Dr. Adish Aggarwala, a jurist who has led delegations to Pakistan in the past, as saying.
...

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 10 Sep 2011 01:25

Stealing Beuties and Bakris

Pakistan is warning that the Taliban are plotting to secure the freedom of Usama bin Laden's wives and children by kidnapping a high-ranking government official and then offering to exchange him or her for the slain terror chief's family.
.S. Navy seals killed bin Laden in a May helicopter-borne raid on his house in northwestern Pakistan.They took the corpse with them, but left at least two of his wives and several children in the house. They were detained by Pakistani authorities.Pakistan's interior ministry warned of the kidnap purported plot in a letter that was sent to top security officials on Aug 23 -- just three days before gunmen seized Shahbaz Taseer, the son of a wealthy provincial governor who was killed by an Islamist militant earlier this year.Interior Minister Rehman Malik said there was no evidence that the group that had seized Taseer from the streets of the Punjab provincial capital, Lahore, was hoping to exchange him for bin Laden's family members.An Associated Press reported obtained a copy of the letter, stamped "secret" on Friday.said the information that led to the warning was reliable. It doesn't say which Pakistani official the Taliban plan to kidnap, but said the most likely location was one of the country's four provincial capitals

( Taibani Taseer Tango , Tuun Tanna Tunn ,Tunn Tanna Tunn TUUUN)

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 10 Sep 2011 01:32

Pakistan Deluge
http://www.undispatch.com/map-of-the-da ... tan-deluge

Arguably the biggest global story that is getting the least attention here in the west are the monsoon induced floods in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. Pakistan is by far the hardest hit. Some 138 people have been killed and five million people affected by the seemingly endless rains. Though not as bad as last year’s epic flooding, the humanitarian situation in flood affected areas of Pakistan is acute. It is so bad, in fact, that President Zidari called Ban Ki Moon yesterday to ask the UN to issue an emergency humanitarian appeal for the flood affected regions

( Onlee da Leader of Ummha, most powefool Country appeal for Khairat)

Bhima · Post by **Bhima** » 10 Sep 2011 02:56

Four life terms for Pakistan born Jihad recruiter

SureshP · Post by **SureshP** » 10 Sep 2011 06:22

Marching to a meltdown?9/11 special

Ashley J Tellis
Saturday, September 10, 2011

Ten years after the 9/11 attacks, US-Pakistani relations have reached a nadir. American policymakers charge that the Pakistani military has been aiding and abetting the very enemies both countries are purportedly fighting. The Pakistan Army and the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), in turn, accuse Washington of disregarding both their nation’s sacrifices and its strategic interests, and in the process riding roughshod over Pakistan’s sovereignty and self-respect. On both sides, corrosive accusations about duplicity and betrayal are commonplace, even as each bends backwards to publicly proclaim an alliance against global terrorism.

In retrospect, it is ironic that the tragedy of September 11, 2001 – the very event that rescued the US-Pakistani ties from their earlier morass – should have engendered the events that have now taken the bilateral relations to their deepest crisis. But it should not be surprising: that the US-Pakistani partnership has been steadily marching to a meltdown ever since it was resuscitated, thanks to divergent objectives, poor alternatives, and endless illusions.

For an alliance ostensibly cemented by common foes, it is surprising how divergent the US and Pakistani objectives in the war on terror have been – from the very beginning. To be sure, Islamabad never sought a role in this conflict. It was brought into it, kicking and screaming, against its will. On September 12, 2001, the Bush administration forced General Pervez Musharraf to sacrifice Pakistan’s clients in Afghanistan in order to support the US military campaign against the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

Musharraf responded by confronting Al-Qaeda - an organisation that did little for Pakistan’s strategic interests – while protecting the Taliban – Pakistan’s investment that promised security along its western frontier. Given the success of Operation Enduring Freedom, American policymakers cared little about Musharraf’s choice: the Taliban were viewed as defeated stragglers who would never again trouble the United States or its allies in Kabul.

Instead, Washington remained fixated for understandable reasons on Al-Qaeda. It was also concerned deeply about Pakistan – not the country as much as its nuclear weapons, which the US policymakers feared could fall into terrorist hands with disastrous consequences.

The solution to these dangers turned out to be Musharraf. Like many before him, the glib dictator shrewdly sized up the United States. He used the substantial US assistance that had been offered to Pakistan to strengthen his own position domestically, rearm the wasting Pakistani military, and wage a campaign against Al-Qaeda and some domestic sectarian groups – all the while carefully protecting the Afghan Taliban and the anti-Indian jihadi groups because of their value for Pakistan’s strategic interests.

This selective counterterrorism worked as long as Pakistan continued to apprehend high value Al-Qaeda targets and Washington did not care about the other groups protected by Pakistan. Although the United States was aware of ISI’s active support for the Taliban resurgence as early as 2003 and the anti-Indian jihadis even earlier, these activities did not receive serious attention so long as Afghanistan remained stable and Indo-Pakistani crises were avoided.

When troubles with India threatened to spin out of control, the United States pressed Pakistan to crack down on groups such as Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT). But the real strains only emerged when the Pakistani backing of the Quetta Shura began to dangerously undermine US military operations in Afghanistan. This collision, which has grown in intensity since 2006, finally put to bed the internal US government debate about whether Pakistani support for jihadi groups was merely a “rogue” ISI operation or the considered policy of Pakistan’s “deep state”.

When the intelligence overwhelmingly confirmed the latter, American policymakers were forced to confront the reality they had earlier wished away: Pakistan, a supposedly committed ally in the war on terrorism was also America’s inveterate adversary. It accepted the substantial US financial and material assistance to target enemies that threatened Pakistan, even as it aided other groups that attacked American and allied citizens in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

This crafty strategy derived from deeply divergent objectives: The United States sought to eradicate Al-Qaeda and the Taliban because they represented violent extremist threats; the Pakistani military sought to protect at least the latter because it served the abiding rivalry with Afghanistan and India. The persistence of this policy over an entire decade led increasingly to unilateral American operations inside Pakistan, a deepening distrust of the Pakistan Army and especially the ISI, and a hardening US conviction of Pakistani perfidy in regards to counterterrorism.

The American realisation that Pakistani strategic objectives differed from those of the United States nevertheless failed to produce any dramatic alteration in overall policy because few alternatives offered a better chance of success. The United States remained reliant on Pakistan for access and the security of its ground lines of communication into Afghanistan. And Pakistani cooperation against Al-Qaeda was indispensable.

Consequently, Washington continued to solicit Pakistani cooperation through persistent bribery in the hope that the Pakistan Army’s policies might change. The United States, however, attempted to revise the nature of that payment in order to increase its efficacy. In particular, Barack Obama’s administration sought to reorient the partnership by increasing the emphasis on civilian assistance and by seeking elevated engagement with the civilian government in Islamabad.

Both efforts, unfortunately, have borne only meagre fruit. The increased civilian assistance has not reached Pakistan at the levels promised and US economic troubles make high levels of future American aid suspect. Moreover, increased US assistance to Pakistan has only enabled the military to sustain its customary high defence allocations at lower cost and without forcing any change in its traditional strategy.

Engaging the Zardari government has also sputtered in part because of the regime’s own failings, and partly because Washington could not resist dealing with General Ashfaq Kayani – sometimes for inescapable reasons – in ways that further sidelined the civilian government.

The United States, therefore, has continued to press Rawalpindi while becoming increasingly embittered that the natural harmony of interests presumed to exist between Pakistan and the United States remains largely a mirage.

What has finally made the desired US-Pakistan strategic cooperation so elusive are the endless illusions bedevilling both sides. The United States imagined that it could coax Pakistan into sacrificing its jihadi proxies through financial and military assistance, occasional compellance, and the promise of a strategic partnership. However significant these elements might have been, they have failed to satisfy the Pakistani military’s institutional interests and assuage its paranoia about India.

Rawalpindi, for its part, imagined that the strategy of hunting with the American hounds while running with the jihadi hares was sustainable indefinitely – even after 9/11 irrevocably changed the rules of the game. Or perhaps, Pakistan’s generals imagined that Washington would not notice or care – a supposition that however justified early on cannot be sustained today even if the military’s domestic and regional preoccupations outweigh its worries about American dissatisfaction. Either way, these illusions undermine whatever prospects existed for sturdy bilateral ties. They also confirm that the real surprise is not the meltdown in the US-Pakistani relations, but the fact that it took so long to materialise.

The writer is a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and has served on the National Security Council staff as special assistant to the US president.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDe ... 6930&Cat=9

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 10 Sep 2011 06:36

Wajibul..?
Our distorted intellectual discourse . By Dr. Manzur Ejaz
( Very Clever Doc, associating Intllelct with Poaq ain!!)

The intellectual discourse amongst Muslims in Pakistan has been extremely mutilated since the creation of the country. It was through state-sanctioned anti-Hindu ideology that the thought process of the entire nation was subverted. If we visit our past and read the ideas preached just a century ago, it is hard to believe where we have ended up now.
The intellectual discourse initiated by Sufi philosophers was inclusive of all religions and negated mullahism. Baba Farid is said to have been persecuted by Pakpattan’s qazi and the ruler of the city for listening to music and dancing in the mosque. Guru Nanak condemned the ritualism of mullahs and the pundits. Shah Hussain, Sultan Bahu, Bulleh Shah and Waris Shah were all defiant against ritualistic religions and developed a secular and enlightened worldview in their poetry. Most of the things related to these intellectuals have reached us mostly through oral tradition. However, the last classical Sufi poet and thinker, Khawaja Ghulam Farid (1845-1901) died in 20th century and has left a well- documented written collection of his intellectual discourse.Listening to music is mentioned on almost every page of the diary. It is also apparent that Khawaja Farid used to listen to music while sitting in the mosque. Describing one of his predecessor Sufis, Khawaja Ghulam Farid is reported to have said, “Shah Abdul Rehman Lakhnavi’s zeal for samaa (qawali) was so intense that after Friday prayers he used to wait for the qawals while sitting in an enclave of the mosque. …However when the qawals, they would perform with accompanying instruments.” Pp 333.When Khawaja Ghulam Farid was asked about the Hindu deities, he gave a very different answer than one would have expected. According to the diary “Someone asked if Ram Chandra Ji and Krishna Ji were men of God or not. He said all avtaar (descendent of a deity) and rishi (composers of Vedic hymns) were prophets of their times and everyone came with a [revealed] book. There are four veds in Sanskrit that were meant to eradicate the evil traditions. But when Hindu Brahmans’ influence increased, they started asserting that the truth can be only accessed through them. To eliminate such infectious beliefs, Mahatma Buddha was sent [by God]”. Pp388-389. Khawaja Ghulam Farid had Hindu mureeds (initiated followers) and had given permission to one of them to initiate others on his behalf. pp 704
So for all the allegations that foreign agents trying to subvert Pakistan’s “indigenous” form of intolerant Islamic chauvinism, Khawaja Farid and other Sufi scholars stand as factual thorns in the paw of the Ghairat Brigade. If one wishes to truly return back to the cultural root of Pakistan’s history and the pinnacle of its success in creating a positive and tolerant world view, they need not look to the Middle East, but to the diaries and poems of the subcontinent’s own Sufi mystics and scholars.

Rajdeep · Post by **Rajdeep** » 10 Sep 2011 07:10

Pakistan warns of plot to free Osama's wives

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 929934.cms

Pakistan is warning that the Taliban are plotting to secure the freedom of Osama bin Laden's wives and children by kidnapping a high-ranking government official and then offering to exchange him or her for the slain terror chief's family. Interior minister Rehman Malik said there was no evidence that the group that had seized Taseer was hoping to exchange him for bin Laden's family members. It said the information that led to warning was reliable. It doesn't say which Pakistani official the Taliban plan to kidnap, but said the most likely location was one of the country's four provincial capitals.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 10 Sep 2011 07:25

Brooklyn Man Accused of Seeking to Join Terror Group

A 27-year-old man living in Brooklyn was arraigned in federal court on Friday on charges that he provided material support to terrorists and had been planning to join a radical Islamic group in Pakistan.

The man, Agron Hasbajrami, an Albanian citizen who had been living legally in Brooklyn since 2008, had sent more than $1,000 to a contact in Pakistan over the past year for the purpose of financing terrorist activities abroad, authorities said in a federal detention order unsealed Friday.

Mr. Hasbajrami, had told his contact that he wanted to “marry with the girls in paradise,” a common reference to dying as a martyr while fighting jihad.

Mr. Hasbarjami’s contact told him that he needed to bring enough money for food and a weapon, and had given him instructions for his travel that would take him from Turkey to Iran to Pakistan. But Mr. Hasbajrami said he had to cancel one trip out of Newark Liberty International Airport in August out of suspicion that he might be discovered, according to the detention order, referring to e-mails intercepted by the F.B.I.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 10 Sep 2011 07:30

Pakistani national guilty in nuke export

A Pakistani national living in Maryland pleaded guilty Friday to a scheme to illegally export to Pakistan nuclear-related devices and equipment.

In a plea agreement, Nadeem Akhtar, 46, of Silver Spring admitted the company he owns, Computer Communication USA, and co-conspirators obtained or tried to obtain the devices and equipment from October 2005 to March 2010, the Maryland U.S. attorney's office said in a news release.

Akhtar took direction from the owner of a Karachi, Pakistan, trading company who had business relationships with governmental entities in Pakistan, the release said.

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Sep 2011 07:31

ranjbe wrote:4. Therefore, if their is any dhoti-shivering about unproven nuclear bombs, this should not be a worry. With the right amount of incentive, India can buy proven designs from Russia, as Pakistan bought their bomb design from China. USA has uttered not a peep since India has been touted as USA's "strategic partner", about the help that Russia has been providing to India.

exactly ! this was suggested by me long ago and this possibility makes testing of newer designs irrelevant if the source is what we allude to. And then the concern shown by various quarters on devices being fail-proof only upto 20kt will be frivolous.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 10 Sep 2011 08:16

30% of Karachi policemen terrorist sympathisers, says IG

The terrorists, Sindh Inspector-General of Police (IGP) Wajid Ali Durrani said, were involved in an attack on a bus carrying policemen in Korangi. “Thirty per cent of the police force sympathises with them [criminals],” he claimed. The IGP was testifying before a five-member bench of the Supreme Court.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Sep 2011 08:19

negi wrote:Nothing is more greener than Gobar; so who wants to be our green PM, again ?

OT but the greenest "son of soil" PM's son got anticipatory bail yesterday.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Sep 2011 08:56

Anujan wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Now, that bolded part is a clincher. PRC is behaving the same way the US has been. That completes the TSP-PRC relationship. Now, Pakistan would do very little to eliminate ETIM even while pretending to the Chinese otherwise. Interesting times ahead. Will TSP be able to milk the Chinese Bull, the way it did the US ? Will PRC also end up helpless like the US vis-a-vis TSP ?

In a way, Pakistan might help India taking care of PRC !
I believe that Pakistan will crack down on ETIM. Paki-US relationship is different from Paki-China relationship.

Pakis are not dancing to US tune because US interests and Paki interests dont converge. US wants a relatively stable Afghan government, Pakis dont. Because stable governments means they become nationalistic, dont recognize the durrand line and quickly tire of outside manipulation. The second most crucial issue is that Paki interests and US interests dont converge vis-a-vis India. Pakis want India to be defeated and dissected into many pieces. US wants India to become a US lackey, a market for its products and a bulwark against China -- all that means that India must stay whole, strong and friendly to the US.

It is because of these 2 reasons that Pakis are frustrated with the US. They try to defy the US, piss the US off, work behind the back of the US, take money and deceive the US and try to gain leverage against the US.

On the other hand, Paki-China relationship is different. Their interests converge vis-a-vis Afghanistan and India. Chinese want Afghan natural resources. They will pay off various terrorist tanzeems to mine Afghanistan and suck the country dry. If Pakis can guarantee a government and a bunch of thugs to protect chinese mines and operations. China will gladly agree. They have no issue with Afghanistan becoming a base for international terrorists who attack the west. Vis-a-vis India, China will gladly supply Pakistan with desired weaponry and budgetary support because India will never use its leverage against China (either through trade or in the Tibet/Taiwan issue) to protest. Pakis dont need a leverage against China, because Paki-China interests converge.

Pakis will crack down against ETIM.

Anujan ji,

Of course, I agree with you that US-Pak and PRC-Pak relationships are built on different foundations and necessities. I still believe that PRC will in all likelihood end up as helpless against Pakistan as the US. I will explain my reasoning shortly.

There are two reasons why I say that Pakistan will not eliminate ETIM. One is because Pakistan simply may not have the wherewithal to do so. ETIM is so well entrenched within the AQAM that eliminating ETIM alone may be impossible even if Pakistan desires so. It is being said that the Chinese drafted Pakistan into SCO in 2005 because one of the binding conditions of the SCO was that member nations will help one another in fight against terrorism. With its enormous leverage over Pakistan, PRC need not have resorted to this ruse to get Pakistan cracking on ETIM. Musharraf allowed maintenance of two terror camps, Kashgarabad & Hotanabad, under the guise of helping the Hajis from Xinjiang, until c. 2006 just outside Islamabad. They were shut down only in 2006 under tremendous pressure from PRC.

The then ruling clique of MMA (Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal) was in favour of ETIM. This means that the ulema of Pakistan favour separatism in Xinjiang. Nothing surprising there. No doubt that Musharraf did act against ETIM. In c. 2003, he eliminated ETIM's chief Hasan Mahsum in South Waziristan. Later that same year, he also eliminated a module of 19 ETIM foot soldiers. The WikiLeaks report I posted above shows how PRC was convinced that the GoP would be unable to contain ETIM and sought to deal with it directly through Jama'at-e-Islami. Now, JI was (and is) an important member of MMA and the MMA are sympathetic to the Uyghur struggle. Pakistan, as a state, may profess anything to the taller, deeper and sweeter Chinese but the ulema and through them the public sympathy will be with the Uyghurs which translates into support for ETIM.

The second reason is the DNA of those Pakistanis who are presently running the nation. The members of the Establishment knew pretty well from Day One that Pakistan was a sinking ship. Their objective was to swindle as much as possible and hope Pakistan would somehow survive so that they and their progeny could continue to prosper. In the worst case, they could always move to another country, most probably a Western country. Wherever they belong to (political parties, army, feudal setup), they are out to make a quick buck and live in fond hope that their perfidy and brazenness would be condoned by one power or the other (US or PRC) so that they, as a nation, will never sink but they, as individual elites, would thrive at the cost of an increasingly weak Pakistani state. I sometimes wonder if one of the reasons for going nuclear was whether it protected Pakistan from being abandoned by the US.

That is why tactical brilliance is so prominent in Pakistan because strategic planning would need enduring some pain and giving up a lot of current comforts that the Establishment does not like. Pakistan has therefore honed its skills in the time tested technique of playing both sides simultaneously and it is a highly developed art form among the elites. This DNA cannot mutate just because China is a dear friend who foolishly transferred nuclear weapons and their delivery systems to Pakistan.

You are right about the non-convergence of the US-Pakistani interests and the convergence (I would say some overlap) of PRC-Pakistani interests. If one were to look at the relationship between US and Pakistan in the 50s, through the 80s, they never converged too. Both the parties to the contract knew that perfectly well and simply wanted to reap the best dividends for themselves while the bonhomie lasted. The US, for its nation and Pakistan for a few individuals. But, they characterized it as an anti-Communist alliance. The post 9/11 has been characterized as an anti-terrorist alliance.

Both these characterizations were patently false because Pakistan neither was interested in confronting the Communists nor the terrorists. While the rulers of Pakistan established a close relationship with the US (individually and institutionally), the people of Pakistan were never enamoured of the US. So long as massive arms aid was coming to Pakistan, and more importantly not much to India, the anti-American sentiments in the society were masked. Once that fell, anti-Americanism in all its glory erupted.

I expect a similar dichotomy or perfidy in Pakistan's relationship with PRC in tackling Uyghur separatism. After having built up Islamism to a crescendo, Pakistan cannot retreat on the Uyghur issue alone just because PRC is their friend. The Establishment may do so, but the Islamists and the society at large would not. The Establishment's efforts may therefore bear fruit sometime in eliminating an ETIM terrorist here or another there. But, ETIM would thrive on the fertile soil of Pakistan like a colony of bacteria on a Petri dish.

PRC recognized that and tried to befriend JI. But, JI itself cannot and shall not go against the larger khilafat ambitions of AQAM. Thus, I see the same anti-Chinese sentiments to prevail in Pakistan too when the time comes. The closer integration that China wants to establish between Xinjiang and Pakistan would be counter productive in the long run as far as Islamist separatism goes. The same goes for closer Chinese involvement in Afghanistan too. Once the fire of Islamist separatism is lit, it cannot be doused short of radical lobotomy. Any such attempt will invite retaliation. The Chinese will try to manage that by their close relationship with KSA, Pakistan etc and with the help of their deep pockets. But jihadis are today independent of these rulers. The AQAM are completely anti-Chinese anyway.

Paki-China bhai-bhai can be broken only if all the religious yahoos in Pakistan are enlightened to horror stories of Muslim oppression going on in China. India should play a part in bringing this to their notice.

I entirely agree with the above. That was the import of my earlier post when I said that AQAM was our best bet and India must play a semi-active role in that. Like PRC stoking some fires in India, we must do the same in Urumqi, Hotan, Kashgar. After all, parts of Xinjiang belonged to J&K which Pakistan deliberately forswore in order to win the Chinese friendship.

That's why I continue to pin my hope that "In a way, Pakistan might help India take care of PRC !"

panda · Post by **panda** » 10 Sep 2011 10:14

By the way, why this discussion about "Green PM" or "no Green PM". We have a system in place for electing a PM. Anybody who comes up on top through that system is OK with me. Does it matter whether he is green or any other RGB value ??

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Sep 2011 10:21

US is Safer Today Because of Pakistan: White House

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 10 Sep 2011 11:26

Why Manmohan's strategy on Pak terror will never work

A sane article that mercifully avoids the inanities that afflict other Indian 'anal-ysts'.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 10 Sep 2011 11:31

SSridhar wrote:That was the import of my earlier post when I said that AQAM was our best bet and India must play a semi-active role in that. Like PRC stoking some fires in India, we must do the same in Urumqi, Hotan, Kashgar. After all, parts of Xinjiang belonged to J&K which Pakistan deliberately forswore in order to win the Chinese friendship.

That's why I continue to pin my hope that "In a way, Pakistan might help India take care of PRC !"

PRC would try to eradicate ETIM base in AfPak sooner or later, once the ETIM presence starts becoming threatening to China. Either

PRC would try to get Pakistani Army to eradicate ETIM using TSPA's own soldiers, or
Pakistani Army would outsource the dirty work to some Lashkar, or
It would have to do it itself.

The best scenario, is if PRC is forced to deploy its own soldiers to eliminate ETIM. Because that would burn the image of Chinese soldiers invading Muslim lands and killing Muslims for ever in the minds of Muslims. When the Chinese soldiers march in, I hope there is sufficient media capture of all they do in the region.

One can prevent the first two scenarios by keeping TTP and Al Qaida aggressively opposed to Pakistani Army. Pushtun Secessionism can also play a role in staying Pakistani Army's hands to launch cleaning operations in the region, and even if they are launched, they remain unsuccessful and are met with a very hostile population.

This is where I think, India should help the Pushtuns, even if it is through Afghanistan. All atrocities that Pakistan commits on Pushtun people, especially in FATA, should be prominently highlighted in Indian media, and by Indians in the Western media. The Pakistani Army should become so sensitive to its image in Pushtun areas, that it tries to avoid deploying its soldiers in the region if it can, especially at time when Chinese start insisting that they do so. ETIM should get a safe haven in Pakistan.

Should Pakistani Army launch operations against ETIM or even other Taliban, one should use the Urdu and other media to spread rumors that the Pakistani Army was being commandeered by Chinese Generals, and there were sighting of Chinese officers among the Pakistani Army, regardless of whether it is the truth or not.

Also if the Pakistani Army should so much as touch ETIM, there should be a forceful reaction from Al Qaida and Punjab Taliban directed at Pakistani Army and military families and neighborhoods.

India's high-resolution satellite imagery of the area delivered through 3rd parties could perhaps also help ETIM to enter East Turkestan much more easily. ETIM could also try to steal the military winter clothing from Pakistani Army, so that they are not considered a threat when they try to sneak to East Turkestan.

India could also try to channel funding for ETIM through Gulf charities.

Afghanistan as the graveyard of superpowers should live up to its reputation.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 10 Sep 2011 11:52

Published on Sep 09, 2011
By John Chalmers
Analysis: With us or against us? A decade on, Pakistan wavering: Reuters

One of the generals who attended a meeting with Musharraf days after 9/11 said that none of the officers openly questioned his decision to side with the United States, but some reminded him "that Americans have a habit of pulling the rug from under our feet once their interests are served."

"America is after our nuclear assets," said the now-retired general, who asked not to be named. "It wants to create chaos in Pakistan to force the United Nations to say Pakistan is an unstable state and cannot secure its nuclear weapons and the international community should take control of these weapons."

There is mounting frustration with the relationship on the U.S. side too, and calls for an end to the security and economic funds that Pakistan receives from Washington, which have added up to some $20 billion since 2001.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 10 Sep 2011 11:56

Published on Sep 10, 2011
Benazir murder case: Mark Siegel becomes witness against Musharraf: Express Tribune

Code: Select all

http://tribune.com.pk/story/249404/benazir-murder-case-mark-siegel-becomes-witness-against-musharraf/

Former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto’s lobbyist Mark Siegel decided to become the prosecution’s witness against former President Pervez Musharraf in Benazir’s murder case, reported Express 24/7.

Seigel, who recorded his statement in the US, claimed that Benazir Bhutto received a threatening call from Musharraf in London.

Musharraf had warned Benazir not to come to Pakistan before the 2008 elections as the government will only provide security to her if she comes after the polls.

According to Seigel, Benazir had emailed him after an attempt at her life in Karachi, saying that Musharraf and his allies will be responsible if she was murdered.

The statement will be used during the hearing on Saturday at a special anti-terrorism court (ATC).

Earlier, the ATC ordered authorities to seize all of Pervez Musharraf’s property and issued him a permanent arrest warrant in the same case.

In February, the FIA cited Musharraf as one of the accused in the case and declared him an absconder after he failed to cooperate with investigators. Musharraf has been accused of threatening Bhutto and trying to influence post-murder investigations.

Musharraf is being hounded because he is a Mohajir!

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 10 Sep 2011 12:44

panda wrote:By the way, why this discussion about "Green PM" or "no Green PM". We have a system in place for electing a PM. Anybody who comes up on top through that system is OK with me. Does it matter whether he is green or any other RGB value ??

Agreed.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Sep 2011 13:19

RajeshA wrote:PRC would try to eradicate ETIM base in AfPak sooner or later, once the ETIM presence starts becoming threatening to China. Either

PRC would try to get Pakistani Army to eradicate ETIM using TSPA's own soldiers, or

Pakistani Army would outsource the dirty work to some Lashkar, or

It would have to do it itself.

Rajesh ji,
PA or PLA cannot target just one component of AQAM because they are diffuesed physically within the group and are located at multiple sites within FATA. So, complete elimination is not going to happen. Even significant degradation is impossible.

ISI-pasand components of AQAM like Haqqani have no animosity towards ETIM. The Uyghurs are not arrogant like the Uzbeks & Chechens who created some problems in FATA with their behaviour. The local population rose in revolt against them and an ugly situation resulted in killing on both sides. Besides Haqqani, the only two other sarkari-TTP commanders that PA could use against ETIM are Maulvi Nazeer Ahmed of South Waziristan and Hafiz Gul Bahadur of North Waziristan. I doubt if these two would do anything against the ETIM. They had differences of opinion with Baitullah Mehsud no doubt, which PA tried to exploit but those differences were due to traditional internecine disputes stretching back to hundreds of years. Those differences could not be overcome sufficiently even with the intervention of Mullah Omar & Jalaluddin Haqqani. ETIM and these Taliban commanders have no such antagonistic relationship.

I therefor do not see the first two possibilities.

The third possibility is far too difficult for PLA alone because the terrain and clannish affiliations are such that the PLA will be massacred if it ventures alone into that area. They do not have the stand-offish capability like the Americans. Besides, there is not much love for the Chinese anyway among the AQAM. So, it will have to be a joint operation by PLA & PA, if at all. The PLA cannot survive independently in those areas and PLA may also not trust the PA to do the job and hence would like to oversee the operation. I hope and pray that such a situation develops in the future. That would be fun to watch.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 10 Sep 2011 13:44

SSridhar garu,

I made the presumption that the Uyghurs have a relationship with the Taliban and Al Qaida not unlike the Uzbeks. If there is a qualitative difference, as you say, then it is welcome.

SSridhar wrote:the only two other sarkari-TTP commanders that PA could use against ETIM are Maulvi Nazeer Ahmed of South Waziristan and Hafiz Gul Bahadur of North Waziristan.

Pakistan's national bird needs to shower some droppings on these gentlemen.

I wonder, if the Uyghurs feel that Indians have sympathy for their cause, whether the ETIM will be able to influence the direction of AQAM exhaust pipe away from India! After all, Uyghurs can only hope to really push the Hans out of the region if India changes the balance of power in Central Asia.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Sep 2011 14:00

RajeshA wrote:I wonder, if the Uyghurs feel that Indians have sympathy for their cause, whether the ETIM will be able to influence the direction of AQAM exhaust pipe away from India! After all, Uyghurs can only hope to really push the Hans out of the region if India changes the balance of power in Central Asia.

The Uyghurs are too small a fry in the AQAM set up to influence the course of action. The AQAM have Afghanistan as their first priority and Pakistan as a close second. Sometimes, some operation needs to be conducted against the latter in support of their first objective.

habal · Post by **habal** » 10 Sep 2011 14:03

RajeshA wrote: I wonder, if the Uyghurs feel that Indians have sympathy for their cause, whether the ETIM will be able to influence the direction of AQAM exhaust pipe away from India! After all, Uyghurs can only hope to really push the Hans out of the region if India changes the balance of power in Central Asia.

Like the uzbeks they are big Shahrukh fans. Most of the popular music is based on hindi movie songs.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Sep 2011 14:12

ranjbe wrote:Russia knows that they will also be a loser if China does a 1962 humiliation on India, because then China will be top alpha dog in Asia, a very worrying thought for Russia.

Not only Russia, but everyone would have the same fear, most especially countries in the arc from Mongolia to Indonesia. Anyway, that is something we will not discuss here.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 10 Sep 2011 19:12

Doc,

Apropos your comment about the Indonesian term for Ramzan,
I am posting this here: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Hist ... akash.html

Read the first lines of the first para

cheers

Kaps

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Sep 2011 19:32

Kapil wrote:Doc,

Apropos your comment about the Indonesian term for Ramzan,
I am posting this here: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Hist ... akash.html

Read the first lines of the first para

cheers

Kaps

Kapil you have no doubt heard the nursery rhyme

Jack Spratt could eat no fat
his wife could eat no lean
so between them both, you see
they licked the platter clean.

For those who are as clueless as I was when I heard the rhyme as a kid - this couple have a plate of meat and he can't eat the fat and she can't eat the lean meat. She takes the fat, and he takes the lean meat. India and Pakistan have become like Jack Spratt and his wife. Pakistan has taken Islam and Indians are trying to say "Let Pakis keep Islam, we'll keep what they leave". So Pakis refuse any Indic heritage and at least some of us try to reject the notion of any Islamic influence on our existence - giving the Paki viewpoint about "ownership" of Islam way more importance than they deserve. India and Pakistan deserve each other if they are going to do a Yin-Yang positive-negative with each other. I personally think Indians have to just shit out Pakis and keep whatever we feel like keeping.

Kapil · Post by **Kapil** » 10 Sep 2011 19:39

Agreed Sir,

We need to dominate the roots of our history, our sub-continent's narrative if you will.
And then,run with it.

We need to deploy and employ Weapons of Mass Communication as we have an edge here.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 10 Sep 2011 23:08

So there is suggestion electing a "green" PM or Pres might be a useful step in countering satan land. Why beat around the bush and dilly-dally with bushlit. Instead... why not everyone become "green"? You would instantly gain the love and effection of 1.6 billion people. Plus you will be guaranteed 72 raisins in the after life. At least you could brew some wine to drown your sorrows if nothing else comes out of it.

In parting here is a story. There was a Maharajah who loved collecting diamonds and other prescious stones. Once in a while he would throw a huge party and invite everyone in his realm to view and admire his collections. One day, the most exquisite pieces of jewels came into the possession of the Maharajah. The celebrate, he threw a huge party, with invited guests. In the middle of the party, the lights suddenly went off and the hall bacame pitch dark. A few minutes later when the lights came back, one piece of jewel in the exquisite collection was missing. Upon seeing this, the adviser to the Maharajah told his master that whoever took the jewel would be embarassed to place it back in front of everyone. Perhaps it is better for the lights to be turned off again so the the person who took it could place it where it belong without anyone seeing him or her. The Maharajah did as he was advised. The lights were turned off. When the lights were turned on...all the jewels were missing. Yep....go elect your green PM!!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 Sep 2011 23:16

asprinzl wrote:So there is suggestion electing a "green" PM or Pres might be a useful step in countering satan land. Why beat around the bush and dilly-dally with bushlit. Instead... why not everyone become "green"? You would instantly gain the love and effection of 1.6 billion people. Plus you will be guaranteed 72 raisins in the after life. At least you could brew some wine to drown your sorrows if nothing else comes out of it.

In parting here is a story. There was a Maharajah who loved collecting diamonds and other prescious stones. Once in a while he would throw a huge party and invite everyone in his realm to view and admire his collections. One day, the most exquisite pieces of jewels came into the possession of the Maharajah. The celebrate, he threw a huge party, with invited guests. In the middle of the party, the lights suddenly went off and the hall bacame pitch dark. A few minutes later when the lights came back, one piece of jewel in the exquisite collection was missing. Upon seeing this, the adviser to the Maharajah told his master that whoever took the jewel would be embarassed to place it back in front of everyone. Perhaps it is better for the lights to be turned off again so the the person who took it could place it where it belong without anyone seeing him or her. The Maharajah did as he was advised. The lights were turned off. When the lights were turned on...all the jewels were missing. Yep....go elect your green PM!!

Or like the story of the camel and the tent..........

But really, sometimes president but never PM

Look at how that muslim league idiot ahamed conducts his independent foreign policy all over the gelf without reference to the GOI.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 10 Sep 2011 23:18

^ It gets even better. There is strong suggestion that Indians own upto the islamic heritage. The problem is that most Indians do not have the capability to own upto their own heritage. Most of them are embarassed of their own non-islamic heritage and do lot of antics to disassociate from it. With such being the case, depending on Indians to own upto islamic heritage is good humor.
BTW, the ex-SDREs tried that and became pakis, but if it were not ex-SDREs the islam would have flourished well true to its origin. Since ex-SDREs have tried owning it, nothing seems to go right even for the adopted heritage. Well bakis with all their best of intentions can only be mohajirs at most and never araps, not because it is difficult, it is because being and ex-SDRE it makes him/her incompetent in that arena.

But one can always indulge in fantasy of having SDREs to own upto any heritage, when they aren't even capable of holding onto the simplest of their original heritage.

r_subramanian · Post by **r_subramanian** » 11 Sep 2011 00:26

Let us move on from discussing the 'colour' of Indian PM to discussing nuclear-capable Pakistan.
I am not making up the title of the news item quoted below.

PM sends out a global rain-relief SOS
Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani Saturday called upon the international community to help Pakistan rehabilitate Monsoon-devastated Sidh province as the damages, this time around, are far greater than expected. {Last year too, it was unprecedented, was it not?}
...

link

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 11 Sep 2011 00:27

Pak tribesmen attack Hindus over 'sexual assault' of girl

r_subramanian · Post by **r_subramanian** » 11 Sep 2011 01:01

Four female teachers burnt in Quetta acid attack

Four female school teachers received burn injuries on their faces after they were attacked by unidentified men in Quetta on Saturday.
...

link

r_subramanian · Post by **r_subramanian** » 11 Sep 2011 01:39

Is Russia really showing interest in financing Pakistani section of Iran-Pakistan gas pipeline?
There are reports that Pakistan may approach Russia and China to help with financing of Iran-Pakistan gas pipeline. The cost is estimated to be at least US$ 1.5 billion. See here for a news report on this.
My question is how serious is Russia in getting involved? Would such an involvement be based on some strategic considerations or purely economic?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Sep 2011 03:02

JwalaMukhi wrote:^ It gets even better. There is strong suggestion that Indians own upto the islamic heritage. The problem is that most Indians do not have the capability to own upto their own heritage. Most of them are embarassed of their own non-islamic heritage and do lot of antics to disassociate from it. With such being the case, depending on Indians to own upto islamic heritage is good humor.

MAJ' TNT demands no such idea to be entertained by Indians. Its strictly forbidden. As one wise man said,existance dont mean aceeptance or ownwrship.

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 11 Sep 2011 04:57

G. Perkovich might just be the biggest $hithead in the western hemisphere.

Here is his latest, a 20 page report, on how the US should deal with PakiSatan.

Stop Enabling Pakistan’s Dangerous Dysfunction
http://carnegieendowment.org/files/paki ... nction.pdf

As usual, there is stuff on India. But this time, it goes way beyond the usual equal-equal garbage, and turns into outright stupidity, arrogance, and hostility:

Stop Over-Indulging India

A third way to stop doing harm is to minimize unintended and unnecessary
consequences of Washington’s courtship of India. India’s growing economic
importance and the basic alignment of its security interests and democratic
values with those of the United States make it natural that Washington should
seek to deepen ties with it. India’s power will inevitably grow and Pakistan
will have to realize that it cannot match India in any domain except nuclear
weaponry. Yet the United States and India must be more sensitive to the
legitimate difficulties Pakistan will experience in coming to terms with this. (WHY THE FICK FOR?)

Many Pakistanis feel that their dignity and the moral worth of Muslims are disrespected as a result of the war on terror, as defined by the United States
and India. In 2007, one year before the Mumbai attack, 42 Pakistanis were murdered in a fire-bombing of the Samjauta Express, a train traveling from India to Pakistan. Responsibility for this terrorist act still has not been established
in a court as the Indian investigation continues four years on, but the outside world does not seem to care. This is in contrast to the attention given to India’s victimization in the Mumbai attack. Pakistanis understandably feel that the world has ignored the terrorism inflicted on their countrymen on the Samjauta Express. The disparity suggests that Pakistani lives are not of equal value. Further, the readiness of the United States, India, and others to hold Pakistan to account for the Mumbai attack is not matched by demands for India to vigorously investigate the allegations that its nationals are responsible for the Samjauta Express murders. (Nor have the perpetrators of anti-Muslim riots and murders after the destruction of the Babri Mosque in Uttar Pradesh in 1992 and in Gujarat in 2002 been brought to justice.) All of this fuels aggressive impulses to deny or compensate for Pakistan’s own misdeeds, which in turn make Pakistani society less receptive to the remonstrations of its own progressive voices. (IS THIS GUY SERIOUS? OR IS THIS CUT AND PASTE JOB FROM AN ISI HANDOUT DUE TO A FAT LIFAFA).

In courting India, American politicians, businesses, and media have seemed blind and deaf to India’s imperfections and mute in calling India to account for actions that do not coincide with global interests, including vis-à-vis Pakistan. The recent uprising of Kashmiris against Indian security forces represents a challenge and an opportunity for the United States and India to positively affect Pakistani hearts and minds. (AND WHY SHOULD INDIA CARE A FICK ABOUT WINNING PAKI HEARTS AND MINDS, YOU IDIOT?) Indian officials and media wisely have not blamed this indigenous “intifada” on Pakistan. But if the disaffected Kashmiris win no redress and Washington’s silence on the issue is seen as disregarding the rights and well-being of Kashmiri Muslims (PERKOVICH, PRAY TELL WHAT RIGHTS AND WHAT WELL-BEING OF THESE KASHMIRI ISLAMO-SUPREMACISTS HAS INDIA INJURED?), Pakistanis will naturally be drawn to militancy. It could be counterproductive for the United States to publicly upbraid India, so private diplomacy should be tried. But if Indian actions or policies do not show signs of change, then the United States should show solidarity with the dignity and rights of Kashmiri Muslims by publicly acknowledging abuses. (AND THEN EXPECT INDIA TO SHOW YOU THE BIG FLIPPIN' BIRDIE)

Washington will exacerbate the backlash in Pakistan if it does not balance its interest in military sales and cooperation with India with concerted efforts to reassure Pakistan that this will not threaten Pakistan’s security against offensive military operations. Similarly, the United States and India will need to cooperate diplomatically to reassure Pakistan that India would not exploit its ongoing role in Afghanistan to directly or indirectly challenge Pakistan’s internal security, including in Balochistan.

(all this) ....does require that the United States and India proceed slowly and carefully while providing Pakistan the opportunity to participate constructively in bilateral and trilateral dialogues to establish that India’s intentions are defensive and that the military means the United States might provide it with would be used accordingly (AND THEN DO EXPECT INDIA TO SAY FICK OFF, WHEN YOU TRY TO SEEK WEAPONS SALES TO INDIA. THAT BIG F16/F18 SALE WENT SWIMMINGLY DOWN IN INDIA, RIGHT?) In considering whether to supply India with advanced military capabilities, the United States could conduct and publish assessments of how each particular sale would affect the stability or instability of Indo-Pak deterrence.

... While the United States cannot compel India to do anything in Kashmir or elsewhere (much as Pakistanis might wish otherwise), it can nonetheless identify steps India could take if it wished to increase the chances of progress in Pakistan. And Washington can help redress Pakistanis’ aggrieved sense of being treated as morally unequal. By speaking truth to Indian power when it is abusive or non- constructive, Americans can help build confidence among Pakistanis that justice can be applicable in their affairs.

As I said, with stink bombs like Perkovich sitting in the big US stink tanks, it is no wonder that 10 years down the line, the war on terror has gone down so bleepingly well for the US.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 11 Sep 2011 05:31

Perkovich solutions regarding India will surely make India unfriendly towards the US. Not sure what US will gain: it will neither tame Pakistan and piss off India. Very scholarly. Even when US was the dominant superpower in early 90s, this policy would have not worked.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 11 Sep 2011 05:38

No perkovich is not a lone wolf in the pack. There is substantial thinking that propping up pakistan is the only way for unkil to prolong its empire. This is even from the latest book from George Friedman who wrote a book forecasting for the decade. Not his previous book of forecast for the century. He makes it crystal clear that pakis will be rented for foreseeable future and why India and unkil can't and will not be allies.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... mpire.html
Look for chapter on India's terrain Page 191 or so..