Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

[nachiket]

New Call For Turing Pardon

Wow! I never knew Alan Turing was convicted for homosexuality and committed suicide.

[devesh]

same here!! this is the first I'm hearing of it.

[anmol]

New Call For Turing Pardon

Wow! I never knew Alan Turing was convicted for homosexuality and committed suicide.

He was also chemically castrated.

[member_20292]

^^^ biggest tragedy in the history of maths.

That, and Ramanujam dying of bronchitis.

Harish chandra dying of a heart attack in 1983

[Aditya_V]

I think If the M can improve that 5% to 12.5% we can suddenly see the UK public opinion drop dramtically for its policies w.r.t to Indian Subcontinent.

[Lalmohan]

turing may not have committed suicide, it is possible that he accidentally ingested cyanide - he was experimenting with cyanogens in his house. however - his prosecution and enforced 'remediation programme' were shameful. a great mind destroyed

[Vayutuvan]

Lalmohan ji, the suicide seems to be in doubt, but as you observed, his incarceration for two years and the treatment meted out to him were a tragedy. But a pardon would send the wrong message that he did commit a "crime".

It is the collective responsibility of the British society to accept what had been done to all (not only just to geniuses) in the past. In that particular case there no amount of redress can help the victims. The case of the brutal treatment of the colonized can be redressed though in the same vein as the Germans - "Never again" promise, unilaterally demilitarize and de-nuke (what do they nukes for anyways? to bomb France?), stop lionizing people like Churchill, stop demonizing India and Hindu, give up their permanent seat in UN sec. council in favor of India, and large monetary compensation to India - in essence self-castration one can dream. While the British are very clever they are also very self-righteous lecturing "moral upper hand" bunch and I doubt they are humane enough to be receptive to the idea that some of their leaders were as bad as Nazis.

[lakshmikanth]

Lalmohan ji, the suicide seems to be in doubt, but as you observed, his incarceration for two years and the treatment meted out to him were a tragedy. But a pardon would send the wrong message that he did commit a "crime".

It is the collective responsibility of the British society to accept what had been done to all (not only just to geniuses) in the past. In that particular case there no amount of redress can help the victims. The case of the brutal treatment of the colonized can be redressed though in the same vein as the Germans - "Never again" promise, unilaterally demilitarize and de-nuke (what do they nukes for anyways? to bomb France?), stop lionizing people like Churchill, stop demonizing India and Hindu, give up their permanent seat in UN sec. council in favor of India, and large monetary compensation to India - in essence self-castration one can dream. While the British are very clever they are also very self-righteous lecturing "moral upper hand" bunch and I doubt they are humane enough to be receptive to the idea that some of their leaders were as bad as Nazis.

Matrimc sir,

The "never again" stuff would happen only if Indians promise themselves that they will "never again" let anyone cast an imperial/colonial/hegemonistic eye on India. It should be a promise to ourselves that anyone who does that should have his/her eyes gouged out and lead poured into their ears by hook or by crook. When most Indians think like this, we would have gotten our first strategic freedom.

But as you and I know that many Indians wish and pray that British were here, coz the time before Independence was "so much more better than all the corruption you see around these days". When retards like these die off and new blood with more self-respects gets into politics things will change. If India continues the way it is, in a few generations, there is a chance that we might make the briturds sign the "never again" agreement for financial support. Sad part is you and I will be long gone by then.

[Lalmohan]

matrimc - check out the "horrible histories" series - on bbc website etc., increasingly there is more truth being told to children than before

[Prem]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCgV-FnEcGQ

Watch the lights for few minutes.

[member_22872]

lakshmikanth ji, This time around, imposition of imperialism on India and Indians by outsiders might be impossible, but the likelihood is the imposition of imperialism by Indians on themselves, and this time around, the imperialism would be complete. The darkness of not appreciating our dharmic values will ensure the imperialism to be complete and I think it has already begun.

[Vayutuvan]

^^^ I hope the next gen British lose their superciliousness. In general their scientists, mathematicians, philosophers are top-notch. Their text books are miles ahead in clarity vis-a-vis US and Indian ones. The people I have come in contact with professionally are nice also. I am not sure where the real problem lies - with British elite, Indian polticos (AKA elite) or both.

[member_20292]

^^^ real problem might lie in our perception and lack of tolerance.

Let the buggers be supercilious. If I dont find his deal fair, I take my wares elsewhere, what?

[brihaspati]

^^^ I hope the next gen British lose their superciliousness. In general their scientists, mathematicians, philosophers are top-notch. Their text books are miles ahead in clarity vis-a-vis US and Indian ones. The people I have come in contact with professionally are nice also. I am not sure where the real problem lies - with British elite, Indian polticos (AKA elite) or both.

Why do you think that superciliousness can coexist with top-notch science, philosophy and mathematics? The three latter ones are an indication of the type of mindset that is encouraged or allowed to flourish by a given system. Superciliousness is a product of the system too.

The British educational system is in shambles. There are features of the US system that allows it to be immensely flexible and do ultimately what it was originally designed for - the 19th century copying of the German liberal university education model geared towards producing initiators and entrepreneurs. For various reasons and experiments with social engineering, the British system has degraded into a far more rigid dystem.

The real basic science research that ha slong term consequences for overall economy and growth - is shrinking in UK. I can tell you with some degree of certainty that several cutting edge areas in mathematics - is actually dominated more by Germans, Russians and Americans than the British. As for "philosophy", the less said the better. I can bring up a flurry of examples that will be most unpalatable.

[member_20292]

^^ real reason britain and europe are facing long term decline is their losing population and discouraging immigration because of the welfare state.

[Philip]

Marx said that "religion is the opium of the people".I say that "malls are the opium of the masses" today! From my years of travelling ,esp. what I've seen in the British isles,malls and fanatic membership of football clubs have replaced religion in Britain.More youngsters trawl the media for the latest mouthings of their fav. football managers on the past or upcoming matches,than listening to the "word of God" being preached in church. Walk into any old church in Britain today and you will almost surely find a cosy coffee bar and shop selling souvenirs-to garner funds for the upkeep of the magnificent structures of old,unable to be maintained properly today because of the perilous state of state finances.A sprinkling of devotees will be found when services are taken,outnumbered bu tourists and those who find solitude and sanctuary in ecclesiastical surroundings.


Aren't you all excited about the Champion's League draw,with such mouthwatering matches to come like the one between Man. Utd. and Real Madrid? What a fest for the Gods!!! Ronaldo and Benzema vs Rooney and Van-the-Man Persie,Yipeee!

[Hari Seldon]

Oirope is caught in a demographic death spiral. Within a generation, the religious war for dominance will tear the continent apart in a massive civil war, or so Mark Steyn had proclaimed. We'll see..

[lakshmikanth]

Marx said that "religion is the opium of the people".I say that "malls are the opium of the masses" today! From my years of travelling ,esp. what I've seen in the British isles,malls and fanatic membership of football clubs have replaced religion in Britain.More youngsters trawl the media for the latest mouthings of their fav. football managers on the past or upcoming matches,than listening to the "word of God" being preached in church. Walk into any old church in Britain today and you will almost surely find a cosy coffee bar and shop selling souvenirs-to garner funds for the upkeep of the magnificent structures of old,unable to be maintained properly today because of the perilous state of state finances.A sprinkling of devotees will be found when services are taken,outnumbered bu tourists and those who find solitude and sanctuary in ecclesiastical surroundings.


Aren't you all excited about the Champion's League draw,with such mouthwatering matches to come like the one between Man. Utd. and Real Madrid? What a fest for the Gods!!! Ronaldo and Benzema vs Rooney and Van-the-Man Persie,Yipeee!

Hip hip hurrray for Britain. Do they also have stalls around the places where they burned heretics and catholics? Also are gypsies and irish travellers allowed inside the grand but hollow churches?

[brihaspati]

Many old churches, those not on the national treasure/heritage list, are being taken over - bought up - by Islamic organizations and converted into mosques. It then also becomes a good excuse to mount fund-raising campaigns, which serve both as religious propaganda as well as possible diversion potnetial of those funds to other directions. They are also targeting buying up pubs to convert into mosques or religous centres. A good tactic of killing two birds with one stone.

[eklavya]

The British educational system is in shambles.

Complete shambles, as this league table will illustrate. Only 4 out of the top 6 universities globally are British. Shame shame ...

http://www.topuniversities.com/universi ... kings/2012

[Mahendra]

AoA onlee, while some universities may be top notch, it is the bottom that is rotten, the schools and colleges are churning out monkeys onlee. The universities can run on money from furrin students, however the not so fortunate universities admit monkeys and discharge chimpanzees onlee

This is 400% true, the education system is certainly in shambles

[brihaspati]

Yes of course, top uni's - top unis! What a great job the Brit masters have done. They can produce hagiographers long after they are gone from their ex-colonies willing to do their bit in brushing up and defending their ex-master's image..

In one such Brit uni [will not name the one] considered "top", where I visit regularly - the entire maths group is almost 60% German, 25% American, 20% Russian, 2% Italian. Yeah the senior head's of the three subgroups are predominantly Brit - with one non-Brit among them. Postgrads - roughly 75% non-Brits. In due time - as retirements go on - the heads will also change "origins".

And by education system is meant the whole of the education system and not the "unis'" onlee. Here is someone from the Brits side:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8505639/British-education-system-is-our-greatest-national-crisis-says-David-Starkey.html

Billions of pounds spent on state education is making “not a blind bit of difference” to the life chances of up to half of schoolchildren, claims David Starkey. And he said Ministers may as well “burn” much of the money pumped into schools and colleges because it has failed to make any impact on pupils’ long-term development. Starkey, the author and broadcaster, said it was our “greatest national crisis” that almost 50 per cent of teenagers currently finish compulsory education without five decent GCSEs, including the key subjects of English and mathematics.

In a speech to a headmasters’ conference, he suggested money was being wasted on expensive facilities, teaching materials and staff pay without a corresponding improvement in standards.

Government spending on education soared from £35.8billion in 2000 to £71billion in 2009. But Dr Starkey said students often simply needed strong discipline to achieve better results. The comments come just weeks after he appeared as a celebrity teacher on Jamie Oliver’s Dream School programme.

In the Channel 4 series, Mr Oliver enlisted TV personalities, academics, actors and musicians to teach 20 struggling schoolchildren. All the pupils had recently finished school without five decent GCSEs after complaining they were turned off mainstream education. But the show quickly descended into farce as the high-profile staff failed to control them. The head teacher, John d’Abbro, a professional school leader, was also unable to improve pupils’ behaviour.

Dr Starkey, author of books including Elizabeth and The Private Life of Henry VIII, said the programme was able to call on lavish facilities but it made no difference. “This has been much of the argument about education; the need for more resources, the need for better qualified staff, the need for improved pay – all it demonstrated was that it made not a blind bit of difference by itself, none whatsoever,” he said.

“It seems to me that with those kinds of children in that kind of school the great missing ingredient is simply what we call discipline.

“For somebody to learn somebody has got to allow them to learn. There cannot be this indulgence of individual misbehaviour, whatever the reasons for it, however deprived the background.”

Speaking at a conference staged by fee-paying Brighton College, Dr Starkey pointed to statistics showing that half of children currently leave school without decent GCSE grades.

“It is arguably our greatest national crisis that half of the population of state schools emerges wholly unqualified and wholly unable to work,” he said.

“If you think what it costs to educate a child in the state system – £100,000, £200,000, it must be in that order in the period of compulsory education – you might as well have taken that money and burned it for all the impact it made.”

He also criticised academies – the Government’s flagship state schools. Many have been opened in new multi-million pound buildings in recent years.

But Dr Starkey said: “I am very sceptical of whole aspects of the current Government’s programme with education or indeed the previous Government’s programme with academies which seemed to me to be grossly and unnecessarily expensive. Do we have to spend these sums?”

[eklavya]

What a great job the Brit masters have done. They can produce hagiographers long after they are gone from their ex-colonies willing to do their bit in brushing up and defending their ex-master's image..

Poor brihaspati. Can't cope with facts so trys to turn it into an issue of colonialism. So pathetic

In one such Brit uni [will not name the one] considered "top", where I visit regularly - the entire maths group is almost 60% German, 25% American, 20% Russian, 2% Italian.

almost 60% + 25% + 20% + 2% = almost 107% = almost 400% correct

Why so bashful about naming the "top" university you visit regularly. Afraid of offending your hosts / masters?

[Hari Seldon]

^^ sadly, ekalvya has a point here. Even if the top univ's top depts are staffed by outsiders, so effin what. The benefit of the dept's output still goes to the briturd eknomi only, no? I see it as a signb oif strength that a univ can attract top talent without trying too hard. Almost like the unkil ones.

[eklavya]

AoA onlee, while some universities may be top notch, it is the bottom that is rotten, the schools and colleges are churning out monkeys onlee. The universities can run on money from furrin students, however the not so fortunate universities admit monkeys and discharge chimpanzees onlee

This is 400% true, the education system is certainly in shambles

It appears that the monkeys may be second best in Europe and sixth best globally

http://www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2 ... he-tables/

Oops! I forgot that this was the thread for rubbishing the Brits. 400% sorry only ...

[Raja Bose]

My respects for the players of 1911. There was a UP connection to the team too. I feel most proud to be connected to that occasion too - in a very long winded way.

iirc one of my mother's "grand uncles" played as part of that team. He was known to openly talk about how the 'sporting' British would deliberately trample the Indian players' toes with their hobnailed boots (the Indian players would mostly play barefoot).

[brihaspati]

What a great job the Brit masters have done. They can produce hagiographers long after they are gone from their ex-colonies willing to do their bit in brushing up and defending their ex-master's image..

Poor brihaspati. Can't cope with facts so trys to turn it into an issue of colonialism. So pathetic

poor ekalavya, could not cope with reading up Starkey's remarks! Have to give points to full aping of the British colonial tactic - pretend you have not seen or heard the more damning pointers. Maybe, already aware of the grade inflation scandal too, but had to pretend ignorance to preserve ex-master's image?

In one such Brit uni [will not name the one] considered "top", where I visit regularly - the entire maths group is almost 60% German, 25% American, 20% Russian, 2% Italian.

almost 60% + 25% + 20% + 2% = almost 107% = almost 400% correct [/quote]

My bad - missed a "decimal" in the American, while putting it down. But know them all, personally. It still does not detract from the fact that an overwhelming majority of the faculty is non-British in origin.

Why so bashful about naming the "top" university you visit regularly. Afraid of offending your hosts / masters?

No not bashful. It is about protecting identity on the web. Unfortunately for your hagiographic tendencies, I never had any or do have any British "masters". Specifically avoided employment head hunting at the ebginning of academic career to avoid virtually acknowledging the servitude of the crown. It would have been an insult to my ancestors. In any case it is only one of the few "top" ones I am connected with. Just recollected the one I visited last. In January will deliver some lectures in another place where 50% are Germans, 10% US, 5% Italians, 5% ex-Soviet east Europeans, 10% East Asians.

[Hari Seldon]

^^No Indians in Briturd academia, Bji? Just curious only.

[brihaspati]

^^No Indians in Briturd academia, Bji? Just curious only.

Indians not that many in number in the maths groups - there are a significant few. Some very prominent ones too - but compared to the Europeans overall, the number is not significant at the faculty levels.

[brihaspati]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/feb/27/katharine-birbalsingh-state-schools-failings

When Katharine Birbalsingh addressed last year's Conservative party conference she drew more publicity than any non-politician had managed since William Hague gave his famous speech in 1977 as a precociously middle-aged 16-year-old. As a deputy head of an inner London comprehensive, the author of a new book titled To Miss With Love painted a picture of urban secondary education that was shaped by violence, intimidation, chaotic classrooms, poor discipline and systemically low educational standards.

It was lapped up by the Tory faithful and, equally naturally, rejected by the Labour party, which in the previous decade had overseen record investment in education. But beyond the sectarian point-scoring, her words also articulated a sense of frustration and despair felt by many people across the political spectrum at the variable and frequently poor quality of state education in our large cities and towns.

Despite years of reform, capital investment, targets, increased assessments and testing, a great deal of comprehensive education languishes far behind that offered by the independent sector and, indeed, other European nations. The manner in which private-school students dominate the elites of politics, law, business and media, not to mention Oxbridge colleges, is sobering enough for middle-class parents who have the resources and ability to add value to state education, but it leaves the vast majority of working-class children, especially those with minimal parental back-up, with little to no chance of bridging an ever-widening divide.

This is not how it was meant to be with comprehensive education. Yet those who choose to focus on its shortcomings, rather than on the distorting privileges of the independent sector, are typically accused of undermining the system. The idea is that perception shapes reality, and if state schools are seen to be underperforming then they will decline further as they are abandoned by middle-class parents. There is clearly some truth in this, as witnessed by the bright flight from inner cities to suburban, faith and independent schools.

But the situation has obtained for many decades, and the same argument was used to stifle criticism in the 1970s. Many of the shibboleths from that period – no streaming, no provisions for gifted students – have now been largely discarded, although questioning them at the time tended to be seen as an attack on the very principles of comprehensive education. In other words, any practical discussion of improving standards is inevitably freighted with ideological and, therefore, divisive significance.


So when Birbalsingh made her speech she thrust herself into an argument that is rarely verbalised by anyone directly involved in education. The fact that she was young, not-white and a woman lent her comments a kudos and credibility that, in our identity-obsessed times, would not have been granted to a white middle-aged man. What really made the story, however, is that her school, St Michaels and All Angels academy in Camberwell, south London, subsequently asked her to work from home (she has since left the school). Not only had she given voice to a cause, her employers ensured that she became its martyr.

[brihaspati]

Dumbing down of state education has made Britain more unequal than 25 years ago
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/9082053/Dumbing-down-of-state-education-has-made-Britain-more-unequal-than-25-years-ago.html

[eklavya]

Specifically avoided employment head hunting at the ebginning of academic career to avoid virtually acknowledging the servitude of the crown. It would have been an insult to my ancestors.

How sad. Looks like Lahori-arithmetic is the least of your problems. And reduced to quoting David Starkey ...

[eklavya]

^^No Indians in Briturd academia, Bji? Just curious only.

Hari, if we're talking about one of the best known mathematics departments in the UK, here is the staff list:

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/people/academic.html

https://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/people/utos2.html

https://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/people/nutos2.html

virtually acknowledging the servitude of the crown

[devesh]

^^No Indians in Briturd academia, Bji? Just curious only.

Indians seem to have a basic research phobia. even in US, Indians mostly populate the Applied divisions like Engineering. not much presence in the basic fields. in Physics, lot of Russians and East Europeans, I can say that for sure. go to any Physics (especially Condensed-Matter/Solid-state) conference, and it will be dominated by Russians/Slavs first, then Germans and Americans, then the rest of Europeans/Japanese. but there is a significant American presence in Physics though. and it seems to me that no matter how much science education enrollment has fallen, in Physics, there is a steady stream of enrollment by Americans. local university clusters run a lot of outreach programs in high schools, and here, even if they are not the brightest or the "cream of the cream", they do enjoy some success in getting high-school kids interested in Physics. not seen such success with other math/science/engineering recruitment programs. for the other ones, if somebody is interested or wants to pursue, they'll do it. and if not interested, no amount of cajoling will make them choose that path.

[vishvak]

Specifically avoided employment head hunting at the ebginning of academic career to avoid virtually acknowledging the servitude of the crown. It would have been an insult to my ancestors.

How sad. Looks like Lahori-arithmetic is the least of your problems. And reduced to quoting David Starkey ...

It is perhaps tougher than watching awesome BBC or Fox.

[brihaspati]

Specifically avoided employment head hunting at the ebginning of academic career to avoid virtually acknowledging the servitude of the crown. It would have been an insult to my ancestors.

How sad. Looks like Lahori-arithmetic is the least of your problems. And reduced to quoting David Starkey ...

You have a problem with Starkey? You have also problems with Katherine? You are blissfully unaware of the huge internal debate about falling standards in what is seen as crucial linguistic and scientific training - within UK? Unaware of accusations of grade inflations within the education system that do not match up with independent assessments?

When we talk of "education in shambles" we mean not only much-quoted unis, but the whole system. University ranking is a whole different ball-game - primarily based on research output as measured by publications, which in turn follow certain well-known peer-connection virtual lobby-system. Some weight is also given to obtaining research funding, which again goes by publications and already obtained funding. This is a nearly closed and exclusive system, which can hardly be ever broken into by say Indian unis - because both publication as well as funding are dependent on the power and entrenchment of groups or topic/theme-schools. By the way, the whole list of UK unis is available on the assoc. of uni's site. Cambridge is just one of them.

I guess if you have a problem with an Indian avoiding taking up employment in the public sector [which means you serve the crown] within UK out of ideological or heritage considerations, and you think it is worthy to mock him for respecting his ancestor's wish/will about not serving the British crown - you show everything that can go wrong with the character of a man in his intense masochistic desire to lick the boots of masters against whom millions of his motherland's men and women struggled and fought.

Yes, I left a decimal point behind - but you have left behind your entire character, if you ever had any.

[brihaspati]

Hari and Devesh ji,
Indians figure more prominently in biological sciences basic research, quite well represented in computing sciences, [computer science or theoretical computer science].

[devesh]

Hari and Devesh ji,
Indians figure more prominently in biological sciences basic research, quite well represented in computing sciences, [computer science or theoretical computer science].

bji,
hmmm....you are right about the Bio-sciences. I've had some chances of interacting with those guys mainly b/c my dad is into the Pharma side and yes, there do seem to be a considerable amount of faculty in the bio sciences.

are you sure about the Computer sciences? there are many in the embedded design and applied development side like VLSI and even many in the Robotics side. but basic computing theory?

[sanjaykumar]

Actually no, compared to the Chinese, Indians feature rather poorly as authors of biological publications. They were relatively more prominent 20 years ago.

One explanation may be the cultural mania of becoming, by hook or crook, a physician and then to accomplish little of lasting significance. When a society literally worships money, it may not be terribly surprising.

[brihaspati]

Devesh ji,
Yes, there are a few in UK. But there is also another angle to this : a lot more of Indian basic maths capabilities graduates are turning up in Oz/Oceania and USA. The first destination of pure/basic/maths people is USA and next Oz. For student days, the Nordic countries are good - especially Germany and Norway- but, Germans appear to have a defacto system by which it might be very difficult for Indians to get habilitation and professorship.

The fact is all the "institutes of national importance" in India, which produce a substantial portion of such graduates - have heavy involvment academically with the US, and next in order with Oz and Germany. UK is a distant third or fourth destination.