Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby member_23692 » 03 May 2015 04:59

Jhujar wrote:
abhik wrote:^^^
An Independent Kurdish state being in Indian interests does not have to mean that they are favourably inclined(or not) to Hindus/India.


But They are. Just had lunch with my Kurdish friend. :wink: Barzani rebuked paki and wanted to visit India 3 years ago but our great Mauni Baba went in Shunya Samadhi on him fearing Iran. Even Ambani could not move GOI. Modi administration acted fast to have consulate in Erbil. Chinese are really trying best to get in the neighborhood but Turkey wants no rival.


That is great to know and informal information is sometimes quite reliable, one cannot denigrate that. But do you have any sources and citations other than your friend, which demonstrate that the Kurds are friendly towards India in the present time, other than a few of them liking Hindi movies ?

The Bangla Deshis, the Saudis, the Emiratis, the Pakis and even some Turks love Hindi movies. And they all will screw India the first chance they get and in fact, do.

As to the point that any internecine warfare within Islam is good for Hindus, well, let us remember that there was continuous internecine and sometimes even intra-royal family warfare among the Islamists in India right through their 1000 year rule over India. Did it help the Hindus ? Internecine warfare among one's enemies only benefits those, who are at least minimally proactive and prepared to take advantage of their opponents' disarray. Unfortunately, the Hindus were not for the past 1000 years, are not now and dont seem to be in any forseeable future, at all prepared to take advantage of any Intra-Islamic conflicts.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Agnimitra » 06 May 2015 00:27

Muslim Kurds abandon their religion to Zoroastrianism to escape "extremism"
Shafaq News / The Ministry of Endowment and Religious Affairs in Kurdistan region said on Sunday that it has received a request from followers of Zoroastrianism to allow them

to practice their religious rituals and help in the construction of their temples after their numbers increased in the region.

The ministry’s spokesman , Mariwan Naqshbandi said in a statement posted on his personal account in Facebook that followers of Zoroastrianism appeared again in Kurdistan and made a formal request to have a representative in the ministry and open their own temples.”

He explained that the recent months have witnessed the return of those in public and Kurdish cultural circles appreciably, which indicates a migration of Kurdish Muslims to their old religion and.

According to Naqshbandi, one of Zoroastrian spiritual leaders had told him that their number in Kurdistan exceeds 100 000 people and they are constantly increasing.

Commenting on the reasons why Kurds are converting from Islam , the Kurdish official said " he doesn’t see the emergence of Zoroastrians and Baha'is before them, with conspiracy point of view or that there is US , Israeli or global Freemasonry or other allegations behind it that some are trying through it to escape from the ongoing facts."

Naqshbandi explained that "there are intellectual and ideological unrest and various imported Islamic extremist facing the peaceful Muslims in Kurdistan and that caused the majority Muslims in Kurdistan to go towards extremism , political and social chaos made them despair."

On 19 of last April in Erbil , the Supreme Council of Zoroastrians was formed in Kurdistan, which will promote the Zoroastrian religion and its Prophet Zoroaster.

Luqman Haji Karim, the President of the Council the Supreme Council told Shafaq News that Organization of Zoroastrians in Kurdistan (Zend Organization) was founded in Europe in 2006 and transferred its activities to Kurdistan Region to apply for an official acceptance to work in the region.

Zoroastrianism dates back to BC and was the religion of the Kurds and neighboring folks like Persians. The official religion of the emirates , kingdoms and empires that had ruled in Mesopotamia areas.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Agnimitra » 01 Jun 2015 05:42

More on the above:

Thanks to Islamic extremism, Iraqi Kurds revive ancient Kurdish Zoroastrianism religion
On local social media there has been much discussion on this subject. One of the most prevalent questions is this: Will the Kurdish abandon Islam altogether in favour of other beliefs?

“We don’t want to be a substitute for any other religion,” al-Karim replies. “We simply want to respond to society’s needs.”

However, even if al-Karim doesn’t admit it, it is clear to everyone else. Committing to Zoroastrianism would mean abandoning Islam. But even those who want to take on the Zoroastrian “belt” are staying well away from denigrating any other belief system. This may be one reason why, so far, Islamic clergy and Islamic politicians haven’t criticised the Zoroastrians openly.

As one local politician, Haji Karwan, an MP for the Islamic Union in Iraqi Kurdistan, tells Niqash, he doesn’t think that so many people have actually converted to Zoroastrianism anyway. He also thinks that those promoting the religion are few and far between. “But of course, people are free to choose whatever religion they want to practise,” Karwan told Niqash. “Islam says there’s no compulsion in religion.”

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Rony » 30 Jul 2015 05:10

History repeats itself

Has the U.S. Just Sold Out the Kurds?

Turkey sent fighter jets into northern Iraq last week to attack an adversary it sees as a grave threat to its national security. But the target was not the Islamic State.

Instead, the Turkish warplanes pounded a Kurdish militia in Iraq that has fought Ankara for years in a bid for self-rule.

Turkey also bombed Islamic State militants in Syria last week. Yet the strikes against the guerrilla Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) in Iraq’s Qandil Mountains underscored Washington’s dilemma as it seeks to bring Turkey into the fight against the Islamic State despite Ankara’s long-running conflict with Kurdish separatists.

The United States has been pushing Turkey for nearly a year to throw its full weight behind the war against the Islamic State and for months was denied permission to stage airstrikes out of Incirlik Air Base, near the border with Syria. But now, as a consequence of winning Turkey’s permission to use the base for airstrikes, Washington may be allowing Ankara to batter the only forces on the ground that have proved effective against the Islamic State.

While Washington sees the Islamic State as a dire threat, it’s clear that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is as focused on going after the PKK, which claimed responsibility for fatally shooting two Turkish police officers on July 22. The attack prompted the Turkish air raids against the group in northern Iraq and signaled that a fragile two-year-old cease-fire had come undone.

Turkish leaders often speak about the Islamic State and the PKK in equivalent terms and have viewed the battlefield gains made by Syrian and Iraqi Kurds as a potential danger that could ignite separatist sentiment among its own restive Kurdish minority. The PKK waged a 30-year insurgency against Turkey that left tens of thousands dead, and the United States has labeled the group a terrorist organization.

The gap between Turkey and the United States was exposed in recent days as officials used different language to describe their new agreement. Turkish leaders said the two countries plan to form a “safe zone” along a strip of land in northern Syria on the border with Turkey.

The officials suggested the area would resemble a no-fly zone. Although the Islamic State has no air force, the Syrian regime of President Bashar al-Assad has air defenses and warplanes that could threaten any safe area. U.S. officials have previously balked at the idea of enforcing a no-fly zone, as it would mean a wider American military commitment and possibly require opening a second front against the Assad regime even as the fight continues against the Islamic State.

U.S. officials were more cautious about the proposed 68-mile-long safe area, saying the two governments were still discussing exactly how an Islamic State “free zone” in northern Syria would operate and how it would be secured.

U.S. officials acknowledged that the tentative arrangement with Turkey was delicate and complicated, and they said they are urging Ankara to act with restraint and proportion in pursuing the PKK to avoid undermining the broader objective of defeating the Islamic State.

Officials said U.S. President Barack Obama’s administration recognizes the value of the Kurdish militias in Syria and Iraq and vowed not to abandon them.

The Syrian Kurds are an important partner and “they have had great success,” an administration official said Tuesday.

“We don’t want to see that complicated in any way” and “we are not going to forsake them,” the official told Foreign Policy.

Turkey received expressions of political support from NATO allies at an extraordinary meeting convened on Tuesday, with member states welcoming the country’s decision to move more forcefully against the Islamic State. But European officials are also concerned that Ankara could undercut the Kurdish forces in Iraq and Syria if it unleashes a large-scale campaign against the PKK.

Obama’s deputy envoy to the international coalition battling the Islamic State, Brett McGurk, sought to play down the Turkish airstrikes against the PKK.

“We look forward to intensifying cooperation with Turkey and all of our partners in the global fight against #ISIL,” McGurk wrote in a tweet on Saturday.

“There is no connection between these airstrikes against PKK and recent understandings to intensify US-Turkey cooperation against #ISIL,” he stated in another tweet.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham, an outspoken critic of Obama’s war strategy, backed the proposed safe area but voiced alarm at reports that alleged Turkish forces had attacked Syrian Kurds.

“One of my biggest fears is that the president’s mishandling of Syria would ignite regional tensions and expand the conflict,” Graham said in a statement. “A conflict between Turkey and the Kurds only benefits ISIL and Assad and further plunges the region into chaos. This ultimately compromises our national security.”

U.S. military officers frequently cite Kurdish forces as a model of success in the often faltering campaign against the Islamic State.

The Iraqi Army has lost ground in the west and struggled to push back the Islamic State at the Baiji oil refinery northwest of Baghdad. But the Kurdish Peshmerga in northern Iraq and the Kurdish militia in Syria have steadily advanced, able to take advantage of U.S.-led air power to maneuver and seize back territory.

U.S. Defense Secretary Ashton Carter said on May 24 that Iraqi Army troops who retreated from the western city of Ramadi earlier this year lacked the “will to fight.” After recent victories by Kurdish forces in northeastern Syria, Defense Department spokesman Army Col. Steve Warren said in June that the result showed what could be achieved by coalition air power coupled with “capable and willing ground forces.”

U.S. officials hope the proposed buffer zone along Syria’s northern border could choke off the two remaining supply lines for the Islamic State that run through the Syrian cities of Dabiq and Jarabulus.

“We’ve also discussed with Turkey the possibility of working with them in a coordinated way and with moderate opposition groups to begin to clear out … the last stretch of international border with Turkey that is controlled by ISIL,” a senior administration official told reporters Tuesday.

The area would not require a no-fly zone, but such a project “will be done in a way that the objective is to get Daesh out of this area and to allow life to return,” said the official, using an Arabic term for the Islamic State.

Enabling armed American drones and manned aircraft to fly strike missions out of Incirlik instead of from more distant bases in the Persian Gulf will bolster the U.S.-led air war against the militants, officials said, as it puts warplanes much closer to potential targets and allows them to linger for a longer period over a target.

But the Pentagon said it will take “weeks” before U.S. airstrikes are launched from Turkish soil, as officials are still working out final arrangements. Pentagon spokesman Navy Capt. Jeff Davis told reporters Monday that several bases were being looked at to house U.S. aircraft for missions against the Islamic State.

Davis said that the United States has not provided any logistical or intelligence support for the Turkish strikes on the PKK and has only shared information to ensure coalition flights are coordinated over Syrian and Iraqi airspace.

Although the mounting threat from the Islamic State has raised anxiety in Ankara, Turkish domestic politics played a major factor in the government’s shift, as Erdogan is anxious to present himself as a man of action to shore up political support, experts said.

And amid concern in Turkey about a Kurdish independent state potentially emerging on its border, the planned buffer zone will be seen as a safety measure to protect the country’s flank, said Suat Kiniklioglu, a former Turkish MP from Erdogan’s Justice and Development Party.

“Turkish public opinion is sensitive to a situation whereby a Kurdish entity is in command of Turkey’s southern borders. The safe zone — if successfully created — would de facto break the continuity of a future Kurdish entity there,” said Kiniklioglu, now executive director of the Center for Strategic Communication (STRATIM), an Ankara-based think tank.

A former Obama administration official said discussions on the use of Incirlik had been underway since 2014. In return for permitting U.S. air raids to be staged from the base, Turkey had demanded the creation of a safe area in northern Syria.

The discussions had revolved around international law, Turkey’s role in the safe area, and how the zone would be maintained — what military planners call “sustainability,” the ex-official said.

“One of the biggest issues is sustainability — because once you start it, you can’t stop,” he said.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Agnimitra » 02 Oct 2015 22:59

While Turkey is trying to wipe out the Kurds, Russia enters the fray and makes war against the FSA (who happen to be the main opposition to ISIS). Russia probably wants a forward naval base.

How Obama can one-up Putin in the Syria crisis: Support an independent Kurdistan

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Prem » 17 Aug 2016 04:38

http://rudaw.net/english/kurdistan/160820167
India’s first diplomat takes office in Erbil
(Another MMS mistake corrected: get military presence there to safeguards "oil Suplly li(n)es" )

ERBIL, Kurdistan Region—The first diplomatic representative from India to the Kurdistan Region was welcomed to Erbil on Tuesday by the head of the foreign relations department. “Minister Falah Mustafa warmly welcomed Consul General Miglani and congratulated him on his new post, assuring him of the KRG’s full support for his mission in Kurdistan,” reads a statement issued by the DFR.“The Minister briefed the Consul General on the role of Peshmerga in the global campaign against ISIS and KRG’s humanitarian efforts. He called for India’s military and humanitarian support to the Kurdistan Region.” ( They want military choppers for mountain region) In return, India’s first diplomat to the Region expressed his country’s solidarity with Kurdistan in the fight against the Islamic State (ISIS). The two discussed establishing a long-term partnership between the KRG and India. “Consul General Miglani stated that he was very pleased to have the opportunity to work in the Kurdistan Region, commended the KRG on its achievements, and expressed his country’s solidarity with the Kurdistan Region in fighting against the ISIS terrorists. Both sides spoke in detail of areas of potential cooperation, expressing the desire of their governments to lay down a strong foundation for establishing a long-lasting partnership that could benefit the interests of both sides,” the DFR’s statement added.The decision of the government of India to open a consulate in Erbil was announced in May, during a visit of India’s Ambassador to Iraq, George Raju, to the Kurdistan Region’s capital. “India realizes the stability and prosperity of the Kurdistan Region and desires to be a reliable partner for the people and leadership of the Kurdistan Region,” Raju said in May, according to the DFR statement.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Karthik S » 17 Aug 2016 04:42

Spreading our wings are we from Balochistan to Kurdistan? Need to be careful that we don't rile up more people than we can handle.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby ramana » 15 Mar 2017 00:27

Bheesham and Bhurisravas,

Here is the thread to look at options.

One thing to note the Kurds are quite Islamists towards the Yazidis and even threaten them in Delhi.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Bhurishravas » 15 Mar 2017 04:09

I dont think the kurds are as homogenous as your post says. Like I have pointed elsewhere, the Barzani fellas in northern iraq are sunni islamists and almost in pocket of Erdogan.
The PKK and YPG are more left leaning and progressive.
Even if the Kurds are islamists it doesnt hurt to fragment Iran, Iraq and turkey into smaller pieces. These are all islamist states themselves. Also, if a Kurdistan nation is not possible, keeping the kurds armed and at loggerheads with the governments in Ankara, Teheran and Baghdad cannot possibly be of any disadvantage to India.
In contrast, the suppression of Kurds in turkey and Iran/Iraq frees up these states to pursue their jihadi policies.
Here is the question - If the kurdish problem for Erdogan were biger than it is today, would he be out supporting the pakis and opposing the dharmics the way he is?

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Supratik » 15 Mar 2017 09:57

Zoroaastrianism is making a return amongst Kurds with a reportedly 2 lakh having converted and the first fire temple built.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Bhurishravas » 15 Mar 2017 18:51

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/03/e ... 59074.html
Explosion hits security convoy in southeast Turkey
Highway blast targeting security forces kills two soldiers on a road linking the cities of Mardin and Diyarbakir.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby anupmisra » 15 Mar 2017 19:17

Supratik wrote:Zoroaastrianism is making a return amongst Kurds with a reportedly 2 lakh having converted and the first fire temple built.


Any reference or news link to the above?

BTW, Saladin was a Kurd.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Supratik » 15 Mar 2017 20:38

google. they know they were forcibly converted by the Arabs just like Iranians.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby anupmisra » 15 Mar 2017 21:26

Supratik wrote:google


Darn it! Why didn't I think of that? Thanks.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Bhurishravas » 16 Mar 2017 19:19

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turke ... 6N14A?il=0
Turkey wants diplomatic solution on Syria's Manbij, defense minister says

Speaking to broadcaster A Haber in an interview, Isik also said Turkey was considering every option to prevent Kurdish militants from taking a foothold in Iraq's Sinjar, including a joint ground operation with the forces of the Masoud Barzani, President of the Iraqi Kurdish Region.


Clearly, the recent fighting in Sinjar was orchestrated by Turkey.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Supratik » 17 Jun 2017 17:44

Kurdistan (Iraqi part) self determination referendum in September, 2017.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby VKumar » 17 Jun 2017 21:12

There is another minority group, of Christians, armanaic? Residing in the same region and suffering similarly.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Supratik » 17 Jun 2017 21:55

Yes, they are very ancient and are present in other countries in the region as well. Jesus hative language was Aramaic.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Karthik S » 26 Sep 2017 13:51

Rudaw English‏Verified account @RudawEnglish 15m15 minutes ago
More
#Live: The Kurdish people have voted, now they are to negotiate with #Baghdad — Bernard Kouchner, former FM of France.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby VishalJ » 26 Sep 2017 16:35

At 5:08 Ben Anderson asks, "which countries have helped so far?"
Peshmerga: "Turkey comes first, India second.................., Jordan, Hungary, Germany,........


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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Philip » 26 Sep 2017 18:24

There was a report in a western paper that Britain goofed up when creating its new states in the ME during the last century and forgot about the Kurds.They should've had their state carved out of the Ottoman remnants post WW1.Turkey was then down and out and wouldn't have been able to lift a finger.The "Arabs",Orenz's famous camel warriors were just experiencing their first taste of their new kingdoms like the Soothis, There is no other solution than to give the Kurds their own territory and call it whatever you will,spl. enclave,state,whatever.The Turks must smell their strong coffee,otherwise the rabid would-be Sultan will get his hair singed in his nether regions. far as we are concerned,time to watch the fun.Afghanistan is of far more importance to us and the soonerw e seal the deal for the dev. of Chahbahar,where some sources are saying that the Iranians are hokding back because of our waltzing with Uncle Sam,The outflanking of Pak is abso. essential.We need to carve out our won foreign policy here and not behave as if we were part of Uncle Sam's Afghan posse.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 67566.html
Kurdistan referendum: Erdogan says Iraqi Kurds risk ‘ethnic war’ and threatens military response to vote
Turkish president - fearful a 'yes' result will stroke separatist appetites in his own country - has threatened economic and military action if Iraqi Kurdish vote impacts Turkey's security

Bethan McKernan Beirut
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has warned that the referendum on support for independence for Iraqi Kurdistan next door risks sparking an "ethnic war" in the region.

In a speech at the presidential palace in Ankara on Tuesday, Mr Erdogan reiterated that all options, including the military, are on the table to protect Turkey's security.

He also repeated his Monday threat to cut off the pipeline which exports the autonomous Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) of Iraq's oil across the Turkish border.

Iraqi woman solving uniform shortage for Kurdish fighters
The KRG's 8.4 million strong population took to the polls on Monday to vote on whether to separate from Baghdad in a referendum not recognised by the central government. Turnout is believed to have been high, at around 72 per cent, and local television said 90 per cent of votes had been cast as 'yes' to independence.

Results are expected at the latest by Wednesday.

"Until the very last moment, we weren't expecting Barzani to make such a mistake as holding the referendum. Apparently we were wrong," Mr Erdogan said, referring to KRG President Masoud Barzani.

READ MORE
This is why the West should support Kurdish independence
"This referendum decision, which has been taken without any consultation, is treachery."

Iraq's Kurds would starve, he added, if Turkey decided to close its long border with northern Iraq, warning that economic and military action were both options on the table for Ankara.

The Kurdish people - who number roughly 30 million across several countries - were left stateless when the Ottoman Empire collapsed a century ago.

Iraq's neighbours Turkey and Iran also have significant Kurdish populations. Ankara and Tehran are worried that the creation of an independent Kurdistan could fuel the desire for Kurdish independence within their own countries.

My reporting on the Kurds landed me in a Turkish prison

While it has been met with enthusiasm by the Kurdish diaspora all over the world, Baghdad and Iraq's Arab population have expressed their concerns that areas voting in the referendum include Kirkuk, an ethnically mixed and oil-rich province.

Increasing unrest there in recent days has led to worries that the likely "yes" result could lead to Arab-Kurdish violence.

Ths US also repeatedly attempted to persuade the KRG to delay the referendum, fearing further friction between Irbil and Baghdad could derail the fight against Isis and Iraq's fragile peace.

Iraqi soldiers joined Turkish troops for military exercises in Turkey's southeast, near the KRG border.
Kurdish Rudaw TV was also taken off the air, a broadcasting official told Reuters.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Supratik » 26 Sep 2017 23:54

Barzani claims referndum majority for independence. Hope a Kurdish republic moving towards Zoroastrianism takes root.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby ramana » 28 Sep 2017 01:51

V J wrote:At 5:08 Ben Anderson asks, "which countries have helped so far?"
Peshmerga: "Turkey comes first, India second.................., Jordan, Hungary, Germany,........



Should be written in Golden words.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Rony » 07 Oct 2019 11:04

US to let Turkish forces move into Syria, abandoning Kurdish allies

Kurdish forces have spearheaded the campaign against Isis in the region, but the policy swerve, following a phone conversation between Donald Trump and Recep Tayyip Erdoğan on Sunday, means Turkey would take custody of captured Isis fighters, the White House said.

It represents the latest in a series of erratic moves by Trump, fighting impeachment at home, apparently taken without consultation with, or knowledge of, US diplomats dealing with Syria.

Ruben Gallego, an Iraq war veteran and Democratic congressman from Arizona, said on Twitter: “Allowing Turkey to move into northern Syria is one of the most destabilizing moves we can do in the Middle East. The Kurds will never trust America again. They will look for new alliances or independence to protect themselves.”

Syria experts warned that the US abandonment of the SDF would lead to another, new front in the eight-year Syrian conflict, and could push the Kurds into seeking an arrangement with the Assad regime in Damascus.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Rony » 08 Oct 2019 06:37

Read the full article

Kurds Have Been Preparing for Trump’s Syria Betrayal—With a Vengeance

But the Kurds are not entirely defenseless. Military leaders of the dominant group, known as the YPG or People’s Protection Units (and their female YPJ partners), already were in overdrive in September, preparing for what they had long anticipated—a possible betrayal by their closest ally, the United States.

Alongside every major highway and criss-crossing the entire Northern Syria area, in fields, cities and towns, we saw digging for an extensive system of tunnels.

“We’re ready either way,” the Kurdish leaders told us when we asked if they trusted the Americans to keep the Turks at bay.

Kurds don’t have much, but their spirit of freedom and their desire to protect their hard-won territory and what they see as their incipient democracy was evident everywhere in September as the YPG troops prepared for battle with a much better equipped foe—the Turkish armed forces, the second biggest military in NATO.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Rony » 08 Oct 2019 18:27

Eight times the US has Betrayed Kurds

The U.S. has now betrayed the Kurds a minimum of eight times over the past 100 years. The reasons for this are straightforward.

The Kurds are an ethnic group of about 40 million people centered at the intersection of Turkey, Syria, Iran, and Iraq. Many naturally want their own state. The four countries in which they live naturally do not want that to happen.

On the one hand, the Kurds are a perfect tool for U.S. foreign policy. We can arm the Kurds in whichever of these countries is currently our enemy, whether to make trouble for that country’s government or to accomplish various other objectives. On the other hand, we don’t want the Kurds we’re utilizing to ever get too powerful. If that happened, the other Kurds — i.e., the ones living just across the border in whichever of these countries are currently our allies — might get ideas about freedom and independence.

Here’s how that dynamic has played out, over and over and over again since World War I.


First small betrayal by US. Main betrayal was by the Britshits.

1 — Like many other nationalisms, Kurdish nationalism blossomed during the late 1800s. At this point, all of the Kurdish homeland was ruled by the sprawling Ottoman Empire, centered in present day-Turkey. But the Ottoman Empire collapsed after fighting on the losing side of World War I. This, the Kurds understandably believed, was their moment.

The 1920 Treaty of Sèvres completely dismembered the Ottoman Empire, including most of what’s now Turkey, and allocated a section for a possible Kurdistan. But the Turks fought back, making enough trouble that the U.S. supported a new treaty in 1923, the Treaty of Lausanne. The Treaty of Lausanne allowed the British and French to carve off present-day Iraq and Syria, respectively, for themselves. But it made no provision for the Kurds.

This was America’s first, and smallest, betrayal of the Kurds. At this point, the main Kurdish betrayals were handled by the British, who crushed the short-lived Kingdom of Kurdistan in Iraq during the early 1920s. A few years later, the British were happy to see the establishment of a Kurdish “Republic of Ararat,” because it was on Turkish territory. But it turned out that the Turks were more important to the British than the Kurds, so the United Kingdom eventually let Turkey go ahead and extinguish the new country.

This was the kind of thing that gave the British Empire the nickname “perfidious Albion.” Now America has taken up the perfidious mantle.


Second betrayal

2 --After World War II, the U.S. gradually assumed the British role as main colonial power in the Mideast. We armed Iraqi Kurds during the rule of Abdel Karim Kassem, who governed Iraq from 1958 to 1963, because Kassem was failing to follow orders.

We then supported a 1963 military coup — which included a small supporting role by a young Saddam Hussein — that removed Kassem from power. We immediately cut off our aid to the Kurds and, in fact, provided the new Iraqi government with napalm to use against them.


Third betrayal

3 — By the 1970s, the Iraqi government had drifted into the orbit of the Soviet Union. The Nixon administration, led by Henry Kissinger, hatched a plan with Iran (then our ally, ruled by the Shah) to arm Iraqi Kurds.

The plan wasn’t for the Kurds in Iraq to win, since that might encourage the Kurds in Iran to rise up themselves. It was just to bleed the Iraqi government. But as a congressional report later put it, “This policy was not imparted to our clients, who were encouraged to continue fighting. Even in the context of covert action ours was a cynical enterprise.”

Then the U.S. signed off on agreements between the Shah and Saddam that included severing aid to the Kurds. The Iraqi military moved north and slaughtered thousands, as the U.S. ignored heart-rending pleas from our erstwhile Kurdish allies. When questioned, a blasé Kissinger explained that “covert action should not be confused with missionary work.”


Fourth betrayal

4 — During the 1980s, the Iraqi government moved onto actual genocide against the Kurds, including the use of chemical weapons. The Reagan administration was well aware of Saddam’s use of nerve gas, but because they liked the damage Saddam was doing to Iran, it opposed congressional efforts to impose sanctions on Iraq. The U.S. media also faithfully played its role. When a Washington Post reporter tried to get the paper to publish a photographed of a Kurd killed by chemical weapons, his editor responded, “Who will care ?”


Fifth betrayal

5 — As the U.S. bombed Iraq during the Gulf War in 1991, George H.W. Bush famously called on “the Iraqi military and Iraqi people to take matters into their own hands, to force Saddam Hussein, the dictator, to step aside.” Both Iraqi Shias in southern Iraq and Iraqi Kurds in northern Iraq heard this and tried to do exactly that.

It turned out that Bush wasn’t being 100 percent honest about his feelings on this subject. The U.S. military stood down as Iraq massacred the rebels across the country.

Why ? New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman soon explained that “Mr. Bush never supported the Kurdish and Shiite rebellions against Mr. Hussein, or for that matter any democracy movement in Iraq” because Saddam’s “iron fist simultaneously held Iraq together, much to the satisfaction of the American allies Turkey and Saudi Arabia.” What the U.S. wanted was for the Iraqi military, not regular people, to take charge. “Then,” Friedman wrote, “Washington would have the best of all worlds: an iron-fisted Iraqi junta without Saddam Hussein.”


Sixth betrayal

6 — Nevertheless, the dying Iraqi Kurds looked so bad on international television that the Bush administration was forced to do something. The U.S. eventually supported what was started as a British effort to protect Kurds in northern Iraq.

During the Clinton administration in the 1990s, these Kurds, the Iraqi Kurds, were the good Kurds. Because they were persecuted by Iraq, our enemy, they were worthy of U.S. sympathy. But the Kurds a few miles north in Turkey started getting uppity too, and since they were annoying our ally, they were the bad Kurds. The U.S. sent Turkey huge amounts of weaponry, which it used — with U.S. knowledge — to murder tens of thousands of Kurds and destroy thousands of villages.


Seventh betrayal

7 — Before the Iraq War in 2003, pundits such as Christopher Hitchens said we had to do it to help the Kurds. By contrast, Pentagon Papers whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg had this dour exchange with neoconservative William Kristol on C-SPAN just as the war started:

Ellsberg: The Kurds have every reason to believe they will be betrayed again by the United States, as so often in the past. The spectacle of our inviting Turks into this war … could not have been reassuring to the Kurds …

Kristol: I’m against betraying the Kurds. Surely your point isn’t that because we betrayed them in the past, we should betray them this time?

Ellsberg: Not that we should, just that we will.

Kristol: We will not. We will not.

Ellberg, of course, was correct. The post-war independence of Iraqi Kurds made Turkey extremely nervous. In 2007, the U.S. allowed Turkey to carry out a heavy bombing campaign against Iraqi Kurds inside Iraq. By this point, Kristol’s magazine the Weekly Standard was declaring that this betrayal was exactly what America should be doing.


Current Eighth betrayal

With Trump’s thumbs-up for another slaughter of the Kurds, America is now on betrayal No. 8. Whatever you want to say about U.S. actions, no one can deny that we’re consistent.

The Kurds have an old, famous adage that they “have no friends but the mountains.” Now more than ever, it’s hard to argue that that’s wrong.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Rony » 08 Oct 2019 23:12

How could the PKK modernize its forces ?

The Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) has expressed an interest to both “modernize and professionalize” its forces in order to adequately combat Turkey.However, it is unclear whether it can do so in the face of far more technologically-advanced Turkish military.

Over the past year, Turkey has upped the ante against the group in the Kurdistan Region by assassinating several of its senior officials – most notably Zaki Shingali, Serhat Varto and Diyar Ghareeb – in a series of air and drone strikes.

Shingali was killed in a Turkish airstrike in August 2018, the first time Turkey assassinated a senior PKK official in this way. The others were killed in similar targeted attacks, demonstrating that Ankara has more effective means of targeting and killing members of the PKK leadership.

Shortly after Shingali’s assassination, Turkish military analyst Metin Gurcan noted that such assassinations could spur more sophisticated and lethal PKK responses.

He pointed out that when Turkey first used armed drones against the PKK in Kurdish-majority southeast Turkey in late 2016 the PKK responded by using vehicle-borne improvised explosive devices (VBIEDs) against Turkish military outposts in a clear bid “to overcome the advantage afforded to Ankara by drones”.

He, perhaps presciently, predicted that: “If Ankara continues with this type of targeted killings aboard, the PKK might revert to intense attacks using VBIEDs and drones, which could create a new dimension to the lengthy conflict between Turkey and the PKK”.

“The PKK has no effective response to Turkey’s advanced military drone capabilities, except to turn back to urban warfare,” said Nicholas Heras, the Middle East Security Fellow for the Center for a New American Security.

According to Heras, while the PKK cannot “match Turkey in drone warfare” the group could seriously challenge the Turkish military through the use of VBIEDs in urban areas.

While such a move “would be highly destructive to civilian areas it would also be the PKK’s last best hope for military relevance”
.

While the PKK increasingly relied on IEDs in the 2015-16 urban clashes “such attacks require a network of logistical support, especially in more urban areas”.

“The PKK seems to have a lesser ability to cultivate such networks in Turkey at the moment,” Tezcür said.

It also “has a relatively limited number of options when it comes to technological advances”.

On top of that, the group lacks “the rocket capacity of Hamas and Hezbollah which face a static border situation with Israel”.

That said, Tezcür also believes that any potential Turkish military incursion into northeast Syria’s Kurdish majority regions, which are controlled by the PKK-affiliated PYD, “may change the dynamics of the conflict and creates more incentives for the PKK to pursue more ambitious operations in Turkey”.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Oct 2019 23:20

Question out of curiosity: Why don't the Kurds seek Syrian (Assad/Iran) protection and accept Syrian authority as Syrians?
Don't seek the answer in the western/NATO/AlJazeera narratives: their whole narrative of Syria/Iraq is totally Alisha-ul-Wonderstan - they don't even consider the possibility that the "Assad regime" is the legitimate govt of Syria, and has proved to be reasonably accepting of people regardless of religion/sect. Sure they have some issues with the White Helmets and the ISIS, but the SDF should be reasonably acceptable to them - PROVIDED the SDF abandons the ideas of carving territory out of every nation. Think about it: the Kurds want to take out a part of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Syria. Probably Azerbaijan, Armenia as well. Is it any wonder that no nation will trust them?

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Rony » 08 Oct 2019 23:27

Syrian Kurds in this situation would be amenable to set up a federal government system, like in Iraq, in Syria and the two forces could unite against the Turkish foreign invader. But the question is will Asad agree to it. It’s unclear how Assad will react to turkish incursion. One possibility is he backed by putin could take advantage of the situation and advance from the south into the Kurdish region. This will force the Kurds to fight on two fronts at the same time – something they are unlikely to survive if it happens.
Last edited by Rony on 08 Oct 2019 23:43, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Oct 2019 23:36

It is Syrian territory, whoever illegally occupies it. So if SAA advances, and the Kurds there simply surrender, then the SAA can race to the front and stop the Turks cold. The Turks have absolutely no bijnej inside Syrian lines, except their claim of wanting to resettle Syrian refugees. So it is up to the Kurds to act quickly and wisely - or be genocided.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Rony » 08 Oct 2019 23:43

After 8th US betrayal, the Kurds could approach Putin as a guarantor of their autonomy in a federal Syria, but from US/Saudi/Israeli perspective, that will consolidate Asad and strengthen Iran-Russia block in middle east.

In next few weeks and months, we will know the fate of the Kurds since they will be pressed by both erDOGan's and Asad's forces from both sides. But along with the Kurds fate, the fate of the other ethenic minority groups like Assyrians and Yezidis who have taken shelter under the Kurds will also be decided.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Oct 2019 23:46

The corollary is that this whole "TRUMP ABANDONS OUR ALLIES" thing is bogus. The reality is this: (1) About 2 weeks ago, the Syrian rep to the UN, or their phoren mantri, demanded flat-out that all occupying forces leave Syria. This included the Israelis who occupy the Golan, the US, Turkey, and the SDF.

So the US is merely doing what it is obliged to do under the UN Charter. Naturally, the SDF's best course is to recognize Syrian sovereignty, at which point Turkey has no locus standi, and becomes a huge target for Iran, Syria, SDF **AND** General Smirnoff. The US has no business putting troops inside a UN member nation and keeping them there purportedly to protect another occupying force from being attack by a third occupying force. Think about the sheer ludicrous position of all these occupiers.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Oct 2019 23:47

Also, for anyone dreaming about Kurdistan as an outpost of Hinduism etc, those ties are long gone: AFAIK, they are as moo-moo as the rest of the Moooddle East.
As for the Assyrians and Yazidis, there is no evidence that Assad & Co wish them ill.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Rony » 08 Oct 2019 23:54

SDF are not "occupiers". That is their home land. SDF includes both Kurds and non-Kurds. But Kurds dominate SDF. Kurds in syria were oppressed and in some cases genocided by Asad's father Hafez al-Assad who confiscated Syrian Kurdish farmland and gave it to Arabs relocated from other provinces to create what was termed “the Arab belt.”. The group was subjected to similar displacement in Iraq under Saddam later. It was after these events that the Syrian kurds approached PKK in turkey (which was already fighting the turks whose oppression was as brutal). YPG emerged as a Syrian offshoot of PKK. It became a US ally only after 2014 while fighting IS.

P.S In Syria like in Turkey, Saddam's Iraq and Iran, Kurds have long faced restrictions on speaking their language and openly celebrating their culture and holidays. They were often denied passports and national IDs.
Last edited by Rony on 09 Oct 2019 00:05, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Rony » 08 Oct 2019 23:56

UlanBatori wrote:Also, for anyone dreaming about Kurdistan as an outpost of Hinduism etc, those ties are long gone: AFAIK, they are as moo-moo as the rest of the Moooddle East.
As for the Assyrians and Yazidis, there is no evidence that Assad & Co wish them ill.



Read the initial pages of this thread on why independent Kurdistan is in India's interest

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Rony » 09 Oct 2019 00:03

..

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Oct 2019 00:06

Independent Kurdistan may be in India's interest, but its creation will massively strengthen the KV :(( - and smash hopes for Baloch liberation. Both should be obvious. The whole idea of re-drawing national borders is a bad idea in the 21st century - except for POK liberation.

Ah yes. I did read the initial posts from 2011. Generals Smirnoff and Vodkov flew in circa 2015 IIRC. Since then the whole scene has changed completely.

Meanwhile, the Kurds have been reading UBCN:

Kurdish leaders mull cooperation with Damascus & Moscow as US pulls troops from northern Syria
could prompt the SDF to “hold talks with Damascus or the Russian side to fill the void or block the Turkish attack.”
His comment echoes an earlier statement from SDF General Mazloum Kobani Abdi, who said that he is considering a partnership with Damascus and its allies to fight Turkish forces crossing into northern Syria.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby Philip » 09 Oct 2019 00:50

The problem for the Kurds is that they're caught geographically between the Ottomans and the Persians, neither friends, plus were treated in Iraq to a gas party by the late lamented Saddam Hussein too.The US has played football with them time and again, ditching them when they had to run.An independent Kurdistan would serve as a magnet for Kurds in these 3 countries. The most trigger-happy enemy of theirs is the would be sultan of Topkapi. The Donald threatening to decimate their economy will surely be put to the test as Erdo attempts to crown himself with a military victory.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby UlanBatori » 09 Oct 2019 00:58

The trouble with the Kurds is that they have consistently sought foreign (usually western) intervention to secede from the nations where they lived. This does not sit well with any nation. And there is no evidence that a geographically unified Kurdistan will in any way be a united Kurdistan: they will just start continue killing each other. It is very sad, no doubt, but they need a new approach: citizenship rights inside each country. Syria and Iran are not enemies, nor is Iraq today. Turkey is turkey I know, has to solved separately.

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Re: Kurdistan - An Indian National Interest

Postby ramana » 09 Oct 2019 01:47

Philip and UB, Its possible India might allow the Kurds to open diplomatic office in Delhi.
If PLO was allowed why not the PKK?


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