The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby gakakkad » 23 Aug 2011 21:19


Is it going to be Rang-de-basanti finale?



I hope no innocent civilian is killed in the process.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby SwamyG » 23 Aug 2011 21:21

Mauryan wrote:Here's rebuttal to Arundhati

Why I’d rather be Anna than Arundhati
http://clearvisor.wordpress.com/2011/08 ... arundhati/

From the above two good videos. I am truly impressed, and if sources of motivation are what he says then one can sleep a little more peacefully that Commies or Maoists are not going to hijack the movement. But can he check the advances of powerful and influential people who would like to ride this wave?



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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby SaiK » 23 Aug 2011 21:32

If corruption is setup in a democratic process, then questioning that setup itself becomes un-democratic from a "corruption is my birth right" basis. The point being, people have gone beyond in this, and have lived through corruption to not realize what is that "no corruption" you all are talking about? wtf is anna doing? he must be corrupted and un-democratic, and can't understand arundati roy.. then how deeply corrupted his mind is on fasting?

get the madrassa drift?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Sushupti » 23 Aug 2011 21:42

Deoband distances itself from Anna Hazare's movement

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 707419.cms

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Altair » 23 Aug 2011 21:47

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... n_US&pli=1

Very good power point presentation about Lokpal and government objections. Worth looking.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby RamaY » 23 Aug 2011 21:56

Sushupti wrote:Deoband distances itself from Anna Hazare's movement

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 707419.cms


As a religious institution, Darul uloom Deoband is not supposed to get involved in these political matters."


How cute. But they don't mind getting involved in their member's personal political views, like that guy who praised NM administration.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby NikhilB » 23 Aug 2011 21:58

brihaspati wrote:
Philip wrote
One unanswered Q.Is there any coincidence between the Indian uprising and those in the Arab world? Are we being manipulated or are outside elements making use of the opportnuity which the UPA has presented them with?


Actually the most interesting question would be as to why is there such organizing talents, media management, "voluntarily" coming forward suddenly now behind AH and his campaign - when such a reaction never, ever came up about 26/11. It shows what the priorities are for people who have been at the core of the movement.

The priority is about money and monetary issues over and above all others. Typically such a concern is more acute for those who have much more than those who have little. I would have found merit in all the organizational talent shown in managing web tech by yuppies for AH if they had shown this enthusiasm in mounting campaigns against the system that put such enormous number of lives at risk in events like 26/11 - and where pontiffs declared that such things happened normally - and that no retaliation or counter-measures should be taken for the sake of WKKism. Weren't the same yuppie brigade campaigning for "peace"?

Things move in India, when external network connections interests coincide with internal most loud voiced elite factional interests. As always Indian elite or mercantile mentality classes are often divided into factional classes - one of which feels being deprived by the other. Most of the time this division is a tie of strength. When external network connections to the same mercantile mentality elite factions also share the same interest as the "deprived" faction - things "happen". This was the story of 1977, and intermediate many less obvious stories. We are seeing just another of those phases.

Do keep the campaign going on from western big-biz circles for the last 3-4 years about corruption in India. A restructuring has been going on over the last 5 years in international big capital control/managerial groups [not ownership]. The cold war stage business controllers have been going out one by one, and another competing newer generation is coming up and taking over - one more flexible ideologically but equally aggressive. This section is coming up against older remnants of previous arrangements with client side economies in "ex-third-world".

In some cases - as in Libya - the side-effects are not bad for overall march of democracy and people diluting their ties to tribal Islamism. In India, on the other hand, the issues are chosen carefully - 26/11 channeled towards WKKism - while LokPal Bill is activated.


Two reasons: (1) there was no leader where people could look up to as their role model for protests. Note, opposition does not lead people sentiments, it just tries to score points over ruling party (2) there was no ONE SINGLE goal for protests or movement - okay, improving security, intelligence are generalists and not specifics.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby RamaY » 23 Aug 2011 22:00

NikhilB wrote:Two reasons: (1) there was no leader where people could look up to as their role model for protests. Note, opposition does not lead people sentiments, it just tries to score points over ruling party (2) there was no ONE SINGLE goal for protests or movement - okay, improving security, intelligence are generalists and not specifics.


So there is no "Individual" responsibility and Dharma if there are no role-models.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby NikhilB » 23 Aug 2011 22:06

RamaY wrote:
NikhilB wrote:Two reasons: (1) there was no leader where people could look up to as their role model for protests. Note, opposition does not lead people sentiments, it just tries to score points over ruling party (2) there was no ONE SINGLE goal for protests or movement - okay, improving security, intelligence are generalists and not specifics.


So there is no "Individual" responsibility and Dharma if there are no role-models.


Of course not, and hence people did protest, but we could not keep the momentum. We did not know till "when" or till "what is achieved" that we consider protest as successful.

And as Brahaspati put nicely, corruption touches everyone's life (it's money), but we can't expect every one person (even in remote villages) to be strategic thinker for nation. They are worried about their own daily life- and nothing wrong in it.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Rudradev » 23 Aug 2011 22:11

A few thoughts on the current situation.

1) This is not, by any means, a "colour revolution." I have watched the US media for 15 years now, and I am very attuned to the sort of reportage, the pitch and tenor of media coverage associated with those things. From Kosovo to Ukraine, East Timor to Myanmar, Sudan, Iraq, Iran and most recently the Arab Spring uprisings (Syria, Yemen, Libya but NOT Bahrain) there is an easily recognizable tone and extent to which US State-Dept. supported "popular uprisings" are covered in the media.

This is in stark contrast to the US media's coverage of the Hazare business... even though India-office reporters are filing their stories, often stuffed with hyperbole to attract professional attention, those stories are tucked away in the South Asia section. They are not front page stories or headline news by a long shot.

When there is a "colour revolution", the spin is 400% clear, reportage of it dominates the international news, and Americans who have never heard of a country before get bombarded with televised images of people in the streets there. Nothing like that is happening with the Anna movement.

Note, this does NOT mean that US State Dept. isn't watching the situation very closely, or that they won't try to interfere in the future as things develop. However, it makes no sense at all for them to promote the greatest threat faced by the *actual* beneficiaries of the Indian "colour revolution"... the ones who came to power in 2004/2009. Do you really think the West would prefer anyone leading India, over the MMS/Maino squad? No chance. Why would they orchestrate something to shoot their own stooges in the foot? Neither the Hamiltonians nor the Wilsonians in DC stand to benefit from that.

2) Anna Hazare himself, may or may not have been propped up by the Congress as a "managed opposition" (I personally do not think he was, but it doesn't matter.) Even if he was propped up by INC to stage an anti-MMS coup and install Rahul Gandhi as PM, the movement has turned into a tsunami beyond anyone's ability to control or manipulate at will.

Even Anna himself is riding a tiger now. Even Anna is constrained, by the sheer scale and intensity of the popular movement he has unleashed, from backing down or compromising too much with the GOI. The genie of middle-class political awakening is out of the bottle, and it is nobody's plaything.

If at all it happens that Rahul Gandhi (and his backers) organized this whole thing... and that Rahul Gandhi is able to capitalize on this, not only with some Kodak moment (taking blessings from Anna and introducing JLPB) but riding this tidal wave of mass political mobilization all the way to legitimate PM-ship... then I have to say, Rahul Gandhi is 10^6 more capable a politician than I ever gave him credit for, and India would benefit from having him as PM.

Of course, IMHO, the chance of that happening is about the chance of an interplanetary collision with Uranus.

3) An interesting by-product of this is the fragmentation of the Indian Left.

With the loss of the WB Bastion, the Parliamentary Left Establishment in India has been shaken at its very foundations. What has been galvanized is the politically active civil society (PACS) Left... the Left of NGOs and loudmouth media personalities. They are scurrying in every which direction to capitalize on this Anna Hazare episode in any manner possible, in the hope of claiming a mantle of National Left Leadership that now rests very uneasily on the CPI(M)'s shoulders.

The interesting thing, however, is that unfolding events are bringing to the fore deep divisions within the PACS Left. Such divisions, earlier, would only become apparent when the Left partook of power (as with the Janata Dal administrations of the '90s.) When NDA or UPA were in power, the Left was protected by a friendly media, courted by parliamentary coalitions, and could play kingmaker without fracturing in the limelight. Today the PACS Left is fracturing in full public view, and they are not even in power. This is a great thing.

Major fissures are appearing between the Centre-Left (Kejriwal, Bhushan and the Anna crew); the pro-Maino, pro-Missionary Opportunistic Left (NAC, Harsh Mander, Aruna Roy etc.); and the Borderline Maoist Left (Dotty Roy, Swami Agnivesh, Nandini Sundar and gang.) Unfolding events are compelling these different camps to take distinct and conflicting stands, on an issue of huge import to the popular political consciousness. This is being played out in the national media every day.

Coupled with the blows recently suffered by the Parliamentary Left Establishment (CPI-M loss in WB), this provides an excellent opportunity for the Indian Right to cripple the political Left even further, and possibly to advance national security interests by isolating and discrediting the Maoist far Left as well.

The Right has to be careful how it proceeds. The Indian Left are like Pakistanis. Just as an outright Indian military attack on TSP would consolidate TSPA, jihadi tanzeems, Paki politicians and Pakiban... high-profile posturing by Sangh Parivar would unify an Indian Left that is falling apart at the seams. That is not the way to go.

The way to go forward is to quietly, doggedly erode and poach at the most likely candidates and draw them to the Right of Congress... so that only the pro-Maino opportunists and Borderline Maoists (hopeless cases) are "left" to constitute a totally discredited Left in the Indian people's eyes!

I really, really hope the BJP is playing this quiet game, given such a golden opportunity. Watch people like Sri Sri Ravishankar, and the pro-NDA centrist politicos to see what they are doing, whom they are reaching out to. Baba Ramdev could really cash in on this, too, if he plays his cards right. This is not Rahul Gandhi's moment... it is L K Advani's, if he has the wits to seize it.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Altair » 23 Aug 2011 22:27

Brilliant post Rudradev
If only BR webmaster had a like button in our forum software after a post like this!

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Altair » 23 Aug 2011 22:30

I still have one thing which is not clear. Could this have been a planned thing?If so by Who? I mean may not be the scale but the intent to cause some trouble to the government through AH? Who can he be working for knowingly or Unknowingly?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Abhibhushan » 23 Aug 2011 22:43

Sbodh said:
The point is - is the demanded end result democratic? An ombudsman, not answerable to elected representatives - appears outside of the ambit of the constitution and sets up the stage for further creation of unanswerable bodies - from what i understand.


Subodh: There is some misunderstanding I think. The Lokpal is not the judge. He is only an investigator and collector of evidence. His method of collection of evidence is to be transparent and public. He is to be protected by law so that his inquiry cannot be stymied by political or social or financial power. Once the inquiry is completed, if any wrongdoing comes to light then normal judicial process is to commence. The executive is to prosecute the wrongdoer. The judiciary is to judge. How do you find this process outside the constitution? The Lokpal will also have checks and balances on him. If what has been proposed is not adequate the legislature can debate and amend the law governing the Lokpal. But, should we shy away even from presenting such a proposal to the Lok Sabha?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby KLNMurthy » 23 Aug 2011 23:15

vishvak wrote:An example of behavior by Delhi police

from Terms for fast set by police, says Manmohan
In his reply to Mr. Hazare's letter, the Prime Minister categorically stated that his office was in no way involved in the decision-making process on such matters.


from Anna Hazare refuses to leave Tihar Jail
ources have told NDTV that the decision to release Anna Hazare was taken after Congress General Secretary Rahul Gandhi's intervention.


So how is it that the Delhi Police and the PMO are independent as Annaji's application for venue are to be treated completely as law and order issue, and are independent.


On the other hand, his release is political and here both the institutions - the Delhi police & the PMO - work together on the advice of RG.

RG ate into credibility of both Delhi Police & the PMO.

This is corruption then it is indeed alarming that PMO & Delhi Police are so corrupt, RG is anyways now openly corrupt to influence the Delhi Police & PMO & eat away their independence bit by bit.

This is the same Delhi police that colluded in the slaughter of Sikhs in '84 apparently on orders from Rajiv Gandhi. So who is fooling whom?
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby subodh » 23 Aug 2011 23:18

Abhibhushan

You are probably correct, i have not fully grasped the gist of what is being proposed. I should read more.

And yes, anything an MP brings within the procedures of the house should be presentated and debated in the lok sabha, i would not dispute that.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby KLNMurthy » 23 Aug 2011 23:21

Muppalla wrote:If fasting wrong, congress is going full circle.
(1) Bharat mata ki jai and Vandemataram used in independence movement by congress - Now they are communal
(2) Fasting and satyagraha used in independence movement - now they are undemocratic

All those observing roza are also undemocratic during the day and democratic when they are having iftar. Like the famous telugu saying: anti-nautch by day, pro-nautch by night.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby ShauryaT » 23 Aug 2011 23:22

Rudradev wrote:This is not Rahul Gandhi's moment... it is L K Advani's, if he has the wits to seize it.
The only part I would modify. It is Na Mo's moment to seize!

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby KLNMurthy » 23 Aug 2011 23:32

Altair wrote:Brilliant post Rudradev
If only BR webmaster had a like button in our forum software after a post like this!

+1
But sorry onlee on LKA having wits

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby a_kumar » 23 Aug 2011 23:35

Kiran Bedi's tweet
Barring a few points all other key points are agreeable by and large to Govt. They are holding a cabinet meeting to resolve


Looking good. Though interesting to see the specifics.

On the cynical side, tet your cameras ready for Kodak moment!

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby VinayB » 23 Aug 2011 23:39

subodh wrote:Abhibhushan

You are probably correct, i have not fully grasped the gist of what is being proposed. I should read more.

And yes, anything an MP brings within the procedures of the house should be presentated and debated in the lok sabha, i would not dispute that.


Team Anna prefers dealing with government (ie INC), and not with 'boliticians' or parliament. Note INC is not politicians. Latest letter from MMS shows offer to refer their draft to Parliament standing panel to which Govt draft has been referred. If this is not accepted, leaves no doubt about who the handlers are (another topic that comes up repeatedly).

New Indian express reported yesterday that the 'inner perimeter' of Anna has been secured by a group of i think 40 people who control access. Notice no 'controversial' pictures like Bharat Mata now.

notice AH interview was given to IBN Lokmat, it was used for a full day blast of 'AH prefers prince', until the denial. Point is the interview was given to a journo whose record is well known.

Swapan Dasgupta wrote a long time ago that this is one set of NGO's feeling jealous of NAC NGO's - an NGO warfare. Whatever it is, it is not the revolution that the chain mail forwarding 'think-tank' thinks it is. The organizers have been managed. may be there were 'RSS Agints' in the crowd. Crowd needs to go home. Swapan thinks since it ran for 6 days the anger will somehow turn anti-UPA, may be benefit BJP. Hard to see how.

a week or so now, any discussion on corruption will be curbed with 'jan lokpal'. mango people will have moved on.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby VinayB » 23 Aug 2011 23:47

when it lasted, it gave good comic value. A lot of them, this one now for example from the esteemed ex-speaker of LS - "Asked to comment on the civil society's form of Jan Lokpal bill, he said, "I don't know what the content there is, but it is likely to destabilise the parliamentary set-up."

any more than the brilliant handling of a trust vote paid with cash, and the follow up? :-)

The idea that the left luminaries are somehow fighting and crumbling and BJP can strategize (after they are done with settling all imbortant Jinna question) - good, but unlikely. It is more likely a case of left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing. Different sets of NGO's, will be used for different purposes.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Rudradev » 23 Aug 2011 23:52

Altair wrote:I still have one thing which is not clear. Could this have been a planned thing?If so by Who? I mean may not be the scale but the intent to cause some trouble to the government through AH? Who can he be working for knowingly or Unknowingly?


Thanks Altair.

About this being a "planned thing"... like a grand conspiracy? I really don't think it was.

What I think happened is something like this.

A little background. As of 2004, we're seeing the stabilization of a political phenomenon that has only rarely (if ever) existed before in Indian parliamentary democracy... and that too, for very brief and unstable stints in the past.

We're seeing the source of all political authority, permanently and stably, sitting outside the elected office of PM. Sonia Gandhi... all power, no accountability.

And, we're seeing a completely bankrupt, depleted political chief executive sitting in the elected office of PM: MMS, a functionary of Sonia Gandhi. No power, all accountability.

As I said, India has seen this before. For example, when the Chandra Shekhar govt. circa 1990 depended on Congress (I) external support to survive, and Congress dictated policy terms. But that was clearly unstable and impermanent. It could not last, and it did not last.

This (Sonia-MMS dichotomy) is the first time in Indian history that such an equation has been deliberately and artificially stabilized... accepted as the status quo... and engineered to last for as long as Sonia Gandhi requires.

Such a situation eventually will lead to a loss of faith in the entire system of parliamentary democracy. The anger may be actuated and aggravated by various issues... corruption, black money, scams, price rise, whatever. But underlying everything is an instinctive sense that the system is just not working anymore. That is the mood of the middle class in India today. That is why, when Aruna Roy or INC mouthpieces insist that Anna is "blackmailing the parliamentary system", Indian people don't give a $hit... they're coming out in greater numbers and supporting Anna even MORE.

Ok. So who planned this?

Here's my guess. We have established that, in this artificially stabilized and untenable equation, Sonia is the external source of governmental authority... all power, no accountability. No need to face elections, no need to explain anything to the people, she can just do what she bloody well wants.

As with all absolute monarchs, she has gathered a *court* around her. An entirely unelected, non-parliamentary bunch of private citizens called The National Advisory Council. Harsh Manders, John Dayals, Ahmed Patels, Aruna Roys. Unelectable people who represent nobody. Yet, by virtue of being in this *court*, all of a sudden they share in Sonia's fount of political power. All of a sudden these people, members of "civil society", are in a position of immense political power without accountability. Just like that! Magic!

And boy, did these "court" people flex their muscles. Ramachandra Guha, Aruna Roy and others pressured the Supreme Court into expunging a statement that predatory conversion by Christian Missionaries causes social friction and hostility. Swami Agnivesh and Nandini Sundar, again, pressured the Supreme Court into declaring the anti-Maoist Salwa Judum as illegal. Most recently the whole pack of jackals have been concocting the "Communal Violence Bill", which is nothing more than a Blasphemy Law directed exclusively against Hindus.

Now, with all *courts*, what happens? There are insiders and there are outsiders. None of them rise on any stance of merit. They only rise by their ability to please Sonia Gandhi (and by agreeing with her that Hindoooo assertiveness is public enemy number one.) Yet, not everyone can be an insider. Some end up inside, some end up outside. There is a lot of jockeying for position. But eventually there are winners and there are losers.

It's that simple. Aruna Roy, Harsh Mandar, John Dayal, and co. ended up as "insiders". Kejriwal, Swami Agnivesh, Prashant Bhushan and gang ended up as "outsiders."

The "outsiders" then said, "Ok, we will show the insiders." After all, the rise of Sonia Gandhi's *court* had proved a point... that in the New India, even an unelectable and non-representative member of "civil society" can wield immense political power. So why should that power be restricted to "insiders" onlee? The "outsiders" had tasted a little of this power (e.g. Swami Agnivesh successfully pressurizing the SC over Salwa Judum) and they wanted more.

So the "outsiders" took advantage of the popular mood, and roped in the old Gandhian activist, Anna Hazare, to be their figurehead. They said, "let us put on a show to embarrass the insiders over the corruption/scam issues... then, to avoid further embarrassment, Sonia might allow us to become insiders also!" At that point everything would have been smoothed over, insider-outsider power sharing compromise would have been reached, old Anna would have been put out to pasture, and everyone would be back to business as usual.

Of course, if the JLPB was accepted by the government, then the Jan Lok Pal office would be yet another path for unelectable, non-representative "civil society" people to gain immense power over the nation. The concept of "power without accountability" had already been proved to be viable, by Sonia Gandhi and the NAC... so why could other structures not be invented to accommodate it?

So the "outsiders" had nothing to lose by beginning the agitation.

Note, even these "outsiders" were not without funds or backing. They all have NGO connections and funding. The promise of being able to wield influence in Sonia Gandhi's *court* brought them even more funds and backing. So they did get behind Anna, and began the Jantar Mantar agitation earlier this year.

Everything since then: LPB vs. JLPB, etc. etc. has been an outward symptom of the "civil society outsiders" vs. "civil society insiders" battle, with the GOI on the same side as the "insiders." But there is one big difference. Back during the Jantar Mantar agitation, the "outsiders" vs. "insiders" were playing a water-polo match in a calm and quiet pond. Today that pond has turned into a raging ocean... THIS was not something that was foreseen, let alone planned, by anyone.

[Aside: Baba Ramdev was a wildcard who joined the game on his own terms; that is why, when his followers were removed from Ramlila grounds by force of police brutality, neither the "outsiders" nor the "insiders" of "civil society" said anything about it. Yet, he too can now venture forth on the vast stormy sea that has opened up under the Indian political system... if he has the guts.]

JMT.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Sushupti » 24 Aug 2011 00:12

^^^^ why ELM is supporting outsiders?.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby dnivas » 24 Aug 2011 00:16

SwamyG wrote:In the recent Devil's Advocate, Karan Thapar was owned by Arvind Khejriwal. I still do not know fully about the man, his intentions, his domestic or foreign affiliations. But one thing was sure, he handled Karan very well. He not only was calm and measured, he answered in brief and to the point. And with a smile counter punched Karan, by asking him good questions. .


Video



He is such a idiot. First time I am seeing his show and he sounds like he has something stuck up his ass. What's up with the stupid nasal twang. a total douchebag
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Rudradev » 24 Aug 2011 00:25

Sushupti wrote:^^^^ why ELM is supporting outsiders?.


Not all of them are. I've been watching NDTV, Times Now, Karan Thapar etc. the last few days. They are hedging their bets, because they are as uncertain as everyone else as to who will come out on top. Many "insiders" (Aruna Roy, Jaideep Dey etc.) are now getting heard on ELM outlets as well.

To sum up:

1) Sonia Gandhi proved that Indian Parliamentary Democracy could be subverted, by creating a center of extra-constitutional power.

2) In Sonia Gandhi's darbaar, many unelected "civil society" types started exercising extra-constitutional power. But between them were struggles. Some became Insiders, some became Outsiders.

3) Outsiders wanted to get on the Inside. Failing that, Outsiders wanted to create *another* office (other than Sonia Gandhi's darbaar) to exercise their OWN extra-constitutional power. They roped in Anna Hazare, to create such an office in the form of Lok Pal.

4) Outsiders thought they could play a nice little political game, embarrass the govt. on the corruption/scams issue, and get their way. Govt. fought back by trying to bury the Jan Lok Pal Bill and replace it with the Lok Pal Bill.

5) Wild-card: nobody predicted that, around the nucleus of the Outsiders' Jan Lok Pal Bill agitation, there would arise a huge tidal wave of public rage against the government, and against the system. THAT is the true Black Swan event here.

6) Today everyone is shocked. Their assumptions about Indian people being easily-manipulated sheep have been shaken to the bone. The GOI is shocked. The opposition is shocked. The Outsiders are shocked, and scared at living up to what has been unleashed. The Insiders are shocked, but doing their best to fight back (accusing Anna of being anti-democratic, carrying out blackmail etc.) Sonia Gandhi is so shocked that she is in Switzerland (or New York.) Nobody knows what will happen. So everybody, including the ELM, is hedging their bets and playing an ultra-defensive game.

7) ALL players are over-awed by the immense evidence of middle-class political consciousness that has emerged like a mountain in their midst. This is a time when the iron is hotter than ever. Who has the guts, the capability and the legitimacy to reach out and strike it? The nation's destiny lies in his (or her) hands.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby RamaY » 24 Aug 2011 01:12

^ Beautiful.

Few points -

1) The babudom, which acted as the cogs in the wheel all these days, has become outcast in this. This is time to make them loyal to aam-janata (True Bharat) instead of political interest groups.

2) The one who is willing to strike this hot iron should be a Bharatiya to the core. Not some (sic) secular type whose loyalty is questionable in the long term. The world geopolitical environment is changing and the nation needs someone who can deliver a corruption free and Indic administration for next 15-20 years. We can have as much (sic) secularism as we want once we achieve our immediate geo-political goals.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby shaunb » 24 Aug 2011 01:39

Rudradev wrote:A few thoughts on the current situation.

This is in stark contrast to the US media's coverage of the Hazare business... even though India-office reporters are filing their stories, often stuffed with hyperbole to attract professional attention, those stories are tucked away in the South Asia section. They are not front page stories or headline news by a long shot.



Apaprently the US State Department has specific instructions to US media about India. Anything that will hurt US business interests in media is a strict no no. That would probably explain why the news coverage is the way it is. The media is cautious or face wrath of the SD.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby SureshP » 24 Aug 2011 02:08

BJP: we cannot accept Jan Lokpal Bill in toto
Neena Vyas


The Bharatiya Janata Party, which has consistently criticised the government's draft Lokpal Bill as “ineffective,” on Tuesday made it clear it could not support the Jan Lokpal Bill of the Anna Team either. “Some portions of the Jan Lokpal Bill cannot be accepted at all,” it said.

At a formal press conference, the BJP's deputy leader in the Rajya Sabha S.S. Ahluwalia said his party “was not in favour of the timeframe of August 30” for passing the Bill by Parliament, as demanded by Team Anna. He was also critical of the call given from the Ramlila grounds for “gherao” of Members of Parliament, suggesting this amounted to coercion of MPs who are “tied by the whip of their parties.”

Demanding that the government “withdraw its Bill and replace it with another,” Mr. Ahluwalia said it was for the government to find a way to do this. The BJP had said it was in favour of bringing the Prime Minister within the purview of the Lokpal; this had not been done in the government's draft Bill. The party also found fault with the government nominee dominated selection committee for the Lokpal.

At the same time, it was critical of the Jan Lokpal Bill of Team Anna. “We agree hundred per cent with some of its provisions; some other clauses can be improved; and there are other parts of the Bill which we cannot accept at all.”

Mr. Ahluwalia made the point that in the Standing Committee, many new suggestions could be incorporated and the Bill improved to meet the people's aspirations. “But the deposition of stake holders before the Committee takes time,” and the BJP was not for short circuiting the Standing Committee to bring the Bill for consideration and passing directly in Parliament.

Echoes CPI(M) stance

The BJP's stance echoed that of the Communist Party of India (Marxist), which said on Tuesday it wanted an effective Bill; it wanted the Prime Minister to be under the Lokpal's jurisdiction; but it rejected the August 30 deadline.

Sensing political isolation if it continued to uncritically back the Jan Lokpal Bill and the unreasonable demands and ultimatums issued by Team Anna, the BJP decided to articulate its differences with those leading the so-called “people's movement.”


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2389421.ece?homepage=true

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby RamaY » 24 Aug 2011 02:12

BJP: we cannot accept Jan Lokpal Bill in toto Neena Vyas

At a formal press conference, the BJP's deputy leader in the Rajya Sabha S.S. Ahluwalia said his party “was not in favour of the timeframe of August 30” for passing the Bill by Parliament, as demanded by Team Anna. He was also critical of the call given from the Ramlila grounds for “gherao” of Members of Parliament, suggesting this amounted to coercion of MPs who are “tied by the whip of their parties.”


These very people were coercing MLAs in AP for separate statehood.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Mahendra » 24 Aug 2011 02:20

The clowns in the BJP should have remained ambiguous, now they have willingly walked into the equal equal trap with the CON-gress.
My chaiwaala tells me that Raul Vinci yooth icon has orgered a pack of Tropicana orange juice, he is awaiting instructions from Mummy dear abd Pigvijay Singh regarding whether he should turn to cap clock-wise, anti-clockwise or try to pierce the tetra-pack with a straw.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby CRamS » 24 Aug 2011 02:21

shaunb wrote:Apaprently the US State Department has specific instructions to US media about India. Anything that will hurt US business interests in media is a strict no no. That would probably explain why the news coverage is the way it is. The media is cautious or face wrath of the SD.


I would say the more accurate depiction is that state dept gives cues to US media on countries US public don't care much for like India, and media just repeats those cues. For e.g., I don't think the royal wedding in UK was covered round the clock because state dept said so, its just that people wanted it and they got it. In the case of India, media follows what state dept tells them about a particular event and tells them why its is in US interest to cover this, and then networks send a reporter. Sometimes things are well choreographed. For e.g., in Libya, US/NATO are controlling the events, and then reporters cover the events as though they are neutral observers when in fact US/NATO are the ones creating the situation for them to narrate.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby SureshP » 24 Aug 2011 02:26

Gujarat Law Minister strikes a different note on Anna Hazare's methodology
Manas Dasgupta

‘Wrong to demand that only Jan Lokpal Bill be passed in Parliament'

Even as Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi has extended support to Anna Hazare in his agitation against corruption, State Law Minister Dillip Sanghani differed on the methodology adopted to get the Jan Lokpal Bill passed by Parliament.

“Mobocracy cannot be a substitute for democracy at any time,” Mr. Sanghani said here on Tuesday. He said that while he welcomed Mr. Hazare's fight against corruption, he believed it was wrong to demand in Parliament that only his “Jan Lokpal Bill” must be passed.

He said the Constitution had given Parliament and its members the powers to frame Bills and adopt them in the manner it thought best. “By sending mobs and gheraoing members, one cannot demand that a particular Bill must be passed by Parliament in a given form,” he said.
“Constitutionally wrong”


According to Mr. Sanghani, such a method was constitutionally wrong and a threat to the democratic structure of the country. “The MPs cannot be bribed, allured or pressured in any manner to get the Jan Lokpal Bill passed. This is not democracy… this is an interference with the functioning of the Lok Sabha. Everyone must allow the MPs to act freely in adopting a Bill.”

Mr. Sanghani's was the first dissenting voice from the non-Congress camp in Gujarat, particularly after Mr. Modi supported Mr. Hazare's agitation. But while Mr. Modi was silent on Mr. Hazare's call to his supporters to “gherao” the MPs to pressure them to get the Jan Lokpal Bill passed, the MPs from the State belonging to the BJP were more than eager to stay on the right side of the demonstrators.

At least four BJP MPs — party veteran Harin Pathak, Vadodara mayor and Lok Sabha member Balkrishna Shukla, the former State BJP president and MP from Bhavnagar, Rajendrasinh Rana, and Kirit Solanki — have already submitted in writing that they will support the Jan Lokpal Bill in Parliament.

The Hazare-supporters continued their programme of dharna and agitation in front of the residences of MPs from the State. On Tuesday, they organised a day-long dharna in front of the residence of Union Minister of State Tushar Chaudhary at Vyara in south Gujarat. Mr. Chaudhary was not at home.
‘Sign in blood' campaign

In Ahmedabad, students launched a campaign to “sign in blood” a pro-Anna memorandum to be send to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh after five days. In Vadodara, State Bank of India employees took out a rally in Anna's support and offered to contribute a day's wages to fund the on-going agitation. Diamond cutters took out a rally at Navsari, while doctors and other medical professionals marched on the streets of Junagadh in support of the agitation.

Meanwhile, Ranchhodbhai Desai, a 112-year-old Army veteran who has fought the 1965 war against Pakistan, said he was keen to join the activist in his fast on the Ramlila grounds, but his family members did not permit him because of his falling heath. He observed a day's token fast to express his solidarity with the “great cause” taken up by Mr. Hazare.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2390301.ece

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Rudradev » 24 Aug 2011 02:32

^^^The Chindu is going all out to save SoniaFace by painting the BJP in a bad light on this issue.

Hit-cockroach Neena Vyas, who now claims the BJP will not support the Jan Lok Pal Bill, was also the one who deliberately distorted Arun Jaitley on his response to the PM's statement the day AH was arrested. Another (s)hit-man, Manas Dasgupta, is trying to play up the "NaMo runs a fractious team" angle here.

Let's see how much good it does them.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 24 Aug 2011 02:32

A frail Anna Hazare dramatically took to the podium at 9.10 pm on Tuesday, exhorting 25,000 supporters at the Ramlila Maidan to block the police if they come to forcibly take him to a hospital. “If they come to take me, block the gates to stop them, but do so in a peaceful manner.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Don-t-let ... 36811.aspx

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 24 Aug 2011 02:50

Congress president Sonia Gandhi is expected to be back home by August-end after her surgery abroad earlier this month, but her return to active politics could take another couple of months.

According to sources in government, Sonia has been discharged from the hospital where her surgery was performed, and is currently recuperating at a private accommodation in the vicinity.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 714376.cms

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Mahendra » 24 Aug 2011 02:55

I got it now! Eureka Eureka!

The frail and ever so innojant, desi bahu SG with Raul in tow will visit Anna and offer him Tropicana. PR bonanza for CON-gress
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby suryag » 24 Aug 2011 02:56

Kejriwal is extremely good at breaking things logically and then answering them. I am impressed, hope he is not from the jholawalla brigade.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby SwamyG » 24 Aug 2011 03:13

Rudradev: Why do you say Arvind Kejriwal is an "outsider"? He is regarded as the champion of RTI Act.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Rudradev » 24 Aug 2011 03:22

"Outsider" in the sense that he isn't currently one of Maino madam's chosen people i.e. the Aruna Roy crowd which is trying to pimp their own version of the Lok Pal Bill as we speak.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby SwamyG » 24 Aug 2011 03:37

What I read about him says he was an activist and reformer, was he even in her camp before? Aruna Roy was part of the NAC even in 2005: http://www.hindu.com/2005/07/29/stories ... 690300.htm . She seemed to have played a part in RTI movement. {Here they along with Bhusan are blasting the WB on the issue of privatisation of Delhi Jal Board}

Here is a case of him fighting in 2005 against Corruption {http://www.hindu.com/2005/01/21/stories/2005012114190400.htm}
In fact, the National Campaign for People's Right to Information has written to the Congress president, Sonia Gandhi, complaining against the failure of the Sheila Dikshit Government to take action against the corrupt in the Food and Supplies Department.


Here in 2010, he is one of the signatories expressing outrage at the conviction of Binayak Sen: http://www.thehindu.com/news/article995803.ece

The signatories said: ?The whole saga demonstrates amply how the various arms of the state machinery routinely act in unconstitutional and illegal ways using unsanctioned power through unseen channels to crush democratic voices that are seen as impediments to their personal or policy objectives.? The umbrella network called upon citizens to come together regardless of ideology and to view the judgment as ?an attack on dissent and an attempt to snuff out the democratic space.?


Many of these activists and reformers have to scratch each others back. In order for their voice to be heard, they probably have to rope in as many well known names as possible. So having taken help from one, one falls under obligation to help the other. Much can be gleaned by the company one keeps.


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