The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

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IndraD
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 24 Aug 2011 21:58

JLP Bill is in dust bin now.

BJP & opposition have asked the govt to withdraw its bill

Introduce a new draft with JLP Bill in mind

(ek teer do shikar-govt forced to withdraw its bill but not supporting AH bill either)

Remaining opposition chorus-parliament is supreme

Nothing without voting and debate in parliament

Now with fast entering day 10-AH (as briefed by N Trehan to PM has developed metabolic acidosis secondary to fast + poor urine out put)

is in serious trouble but he is determined to go down as a fighter

only 2 scenario-AH arrested force fed

AH dies as a consequence of matter not getting resolved

First one is most likely

Govt ready to force feed AH
Last edited by IndraD on 24 Aug 2011 22:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Theo_Fidel » 24 Aug 2011 21:59

SwamyG,

Not sure that computes. yes, the scale is different but isn't that what his 100,000 plus mobilized followers are for. If one man can transform the society of a village of 5000, a mobilized army of 100,000 could change the nation before our eyes. And yes he demonstrated credibility with solving the water problem but he definitely focused on complete social transformation right from the beginning. For instance 100% female literacy. Banning Alcohol consumption (not sale), ending untouchability, etc.

IIRC the Sabha thing was very recent. Year 2002 or so. Sabha can not work with out social reform. In that way yes success adds to success.

WRT AH he could learn some of the lessons of Gandhi. Gandhi never promised people he would drive the British out, what he said was that I will give you the tools and the moral/intellectual strength of will to resist the British. He never said my followers are going to strike and stop the economy today. All he said was today shall be a non-cooperation day to no one in particular and the nation would grind to a stop by itself.

IMHO this what AH should be focusing on rather than a test of personal will against an elected government.

LalM,
+1

S,

Lower communities have said do this through the constitution. If you don't like the government get enough MP's to switch then bring it down, get your own group in power and change the Lokpal rules. A new Lokpal will almost certainly get captured by vested interests and turned into a harassment mechanism, esp. of people like Maywati or Laloo, who despite our distaste were clearly elected by the poor. What Middle class wants is to get even with the poor traffic constable who is able to stop their car and demand Rs100.

As you have noted the ability to do illegal stuff consensually will not change. IMO this is the the vast majority of corruption in India, people trying to avoid rules, even if many times the rules are stupid.
--------------------------------

Anna's advisers have painted him into a dead end by insisting on maximal position. I hope he survives this.

One thing no longer focused on is ending corruption.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby sumishi » 24 Aug 2011 22:00

If he dies, what will remain of the idea of non-violence as a political form of protest?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby lakshmikanth » 24 Aug 2011 22:02

Muppalla wrote:There is actually nothing to talk with Anna. MMS has two options (1) surrender and pass Lokpal as asked by Anna (2) Leave Anna to die.


Just had a discussion with one of my friends and I think this was what I could think of:

CON gress is having two choices and some smart crook in there has figured out the economic cost of each choice
1) If the Govt. surrenders, Anna and folks will come up with even more brazen demands to end corruption, it will give hope to the people that their voice can be heard and the govt. is afraid of them. Being an extremely feudal society, this is something unpalatable and unheard of, in the elite circles of India. More importantly, its a recurring cost. If they do a GUBO now, they will soon have to GUBO to a stronger Anna and Co, and more and more people will be hopeful of change.

2) If Anna dies, public anger may explode and CON folks might be out the next elections (far away). However, Anna does not have a successor in line, he has no lineage to continue. The calculation might be that Anna's death is a one time cost, it will end with Anna's death and the resulting explosion of people's anger. However, middle class is an elephant with a very very short memory, who will soon forget Anna and return to their ways of thinking that things are "hopeless". Even if the CON men get voted out next time, not a big deal, they made it through the Emergency didn't they!

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Sanku » 24 Aug 2011 22:03

sumishi wrote:If he dies, what will remain of the idea of non-violence as a political form of protest?


Anna has often said recently that when people dont listen to Gandhi, they will have to think about Shivaji.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby sumishi » 24 Aug 2011 22:05

Will it be a replay of Potti Sreeramulu? :evil:

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 24 Aug 2011 22:05

sumishi wrote:If he dies, what will remain of the idea of non-violence as a political form of protest?


I assure you govt won't let him die. LNJP hospital is in a ready mode.

After his arrest the movement will lose its steam but with long term consequences for politicos.

What an irony he is likely to be treated in a hospital in the name of JP

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby kenop » 24 Aug 2011 22:09

Some serious action is definitely in store.
My personal opinion is that the govt has its hands tied down with the need to save its top leadership. It will go to any extent to achieve that.
Showdown time it is.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Uttam » 24 Aug 2011 22:09

What is so sacrosanct about "parliamentary democracy"? What is the ultimate goal of a government elected by the people? I think in this long winded debate on what Anna Hazare and co. can do (or demand) or not, many have taken their sights from the ultimate goal, i.e. freedom and liberty for all. (being forced to pay a bribe to get what one deserves or being deprived of opportunity rightfully yours is in fact against the basic tenets of freedom and liberty). If the corrupt institutions of a nation prevent a society from achieving this goal then "parliamentary democracy" needs to be bolstered by a system of checks and balances. If in fact, the "parliamentary democracy" was capable of was capable of achieving these goals without a system of checks and balances then why even after 60+ years, we have not. On the contrary, the situation with corruption has gotten worse.

I therefore disagree with the notion that in a democracy parliament is supreme. I believe in the ultimate superiority of the goal: freedom and liberty for all. And Anna and every Indian can and should peacefully demand such a system of checks and balances.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Prem » 24 Aug 2011 22:14

IndraD wrote:
sumishi wrote:If he dies, what will remain of the idea of non-violence as a political form of protest?


I assure you govt won't let him die. LNJP hospital is in a ready mode.

After his arrest the movement will lose its steam but with long term consequences for politicos.

What an irony he is likely to be treated in a hospital in the name of JP


What if Anna slips into Coma and dont recover ? Will he become symbol of Congressi Corrpution Karttoots and trasform his peaceful agitation into a aggressive movement with aim to clean the present political slate in present Islamic Republic of India ?

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby AnimeshP » 24 Aug 2011 22:17

From Twitter feed of Sanjay Kapoor - editor of HardNewsMedia
PM seemed quite firm during Iftar party that he hosted at his residence. To my ques he said he didn't bother abt Anna deadline


i sensed anger amongst the political leaders at PM house towards Anna's blackmail tactics.Their Msg to PM was:don't give in.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 24 Aug 2011 22:22

A shocking read

prisoner of ram lila ground-Anna

Kiran Bedi & Kejriwal don't allow any one near AH

he has been kidnapped by two

Anna is being pushed to death by them

Fight is now on between Anna's new handlers vs old

K Bedi wants to be India's next chief information commissioner


very interesting-Let Kejriwal, Bedi, Sisodiya fast: Thackeray to Anna

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/let-k ... na/836467/

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby ShyamSP » 24 Aug 2011 22:24

Uttam wrote:What is so sacrosanct about "parliamentary democracy"? What is the ultimate goal of a government elected by the people? I think in this long winded debate on what Anna Hazare and co. can do (or demand) or not, many have taken their sights from the ultimate goal, i.e. freedom and liberty for all. (being forced to pay a bribe to get what one deserves or being deprived of opportunity rightfully yours is in fact against the basic tenets of freedom and liberty). If the corrupt institutions of a nation prevent a society from achieving this goal then "parliamentary democracy" needs to be bolstered by a system of checks and balances. If in fact, the "parliamentary democracy" was capable of was capable of achieving these goals without a system of checks and balances then why even after 60+ years, we have not. On the contrary, the situation with corruption has gotten worse.

I therefore disagree with the notion that in a democracy parliament is supreme. I believe in the ultimate superiority of the goal: freedom and liberty for all. And Anna and every Indian can and should peacefully demand such a system of checks and balances.


Agree.

First of all he is asking to pass a bill in parliament which some MPs are also accepted to provide platform in parliament, that itself indicates parliament is supreme. Democracy/people are actually supreme not parliament.

As to question about including PM, What is big deal? PM is nominated post. They are asking to prosecute person who is PM not undermining PM post itself. If PM is crook or complicit like MMS, he/she can be replaced by nominating another so ex-PM as person can be prosecuted just like what is done in Karnataka CM case.

Only issue might be Judiciary. I see that they are not asking to take over Judiciary also and that aspect can be removed if they want to take some judiciary role. Lokpal should have investigation power not enforcement or judiciary.

Problem here is people don't have avenue to pass laws in India like they do in USA where citizens can bring laws through props (proposals).
What Anna is doing similar to prop. Still it can go as private bill if there is MP sponsor in Parliament.
Last edited by ShyamSP on 24 Aug 2011 22:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby RamaY » 24 Aug 2011 22:25

Theo_Fidel wrote:For the first time I'm seeing a clear middle class refusal to accept input from lower groupings. Used to be if the the communities lower down said this is the way it will be, the middle class would protest but would slowly accept the verdict. I'm now seeing a refusal to accept the verdict even. Society is being set up for a longer term violent confrontation. Similar to what Venezuela is going through.


So UPA administration is coalition of lower groupings and Middle class = Select NGOs + organized employee sector. Makes sense.

Then naturally it helps UPA to keep the nation and majority in lower groupings, that is further stratification of society and enforced BPL on India. But as the economy progresses and so-called middle-class increases naturally UPA will have to lose or make space for middle-class in its power structures, that means further stratification of society. Good way to achieve unity in diversity.

This explains the need for smaller states, increased caste categories for reservations etc..

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Muppalla » 24 Aug 2011 22:32

So MMS and co finally decided that the cost of fighting it out on Anna is far better than talking to him. But why did they give him even nine days? I still suspect congress wanted to take advantage of Anna in their fight against opposition. Rudradev's insider Vs outsider is excellently valid.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby AnimeshP » 24 Aug 2011 22:37

Kiran Bedi tweets ...

Reliable information is that Anna may be removed force ably


Looks like the govt is going to play hardball ... Interesting times ahead ...

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby AnimeshP » 24 Aug 2011 22:44

Arvind Kejriwal addressing crowds right now ...
- Govt has backtracked on all issues agreed to last evening
- Govt will table new bill including aspects of JLP. Will have further discussions.
- Govt said Anna's health is Team Anna's problem .. not a govt problem ..

Anna Hazare addressing crowds now

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Dhiman » 24 Aug 2011 22:45

AnimeshP wrote:Looks like the govt is going to play hardball ... Interesting times ahead ...


Indeed Sir! Especially when keeping in mind that this government does not hesitate in flipping and flopping from its old positions. All definitions of "Leadership" are going to be tested in next 24 hours :-)

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 24 Aug 2011 22:47



Also if correct this article proves Rudradev 's point that people around AH have own agenda and ambitions.

How about Kiran Bedi & Kejriwal on fast from this point onwards to support the cause?
Last edited by IndraD on 24 Aug 2011 22:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby AnimeshP » 24 Aug 2011 22:50

Anna Hazare telling crowds that if he is arrested, the crowd should let him be arrested peacefully but then after that people should gherao MPs and start jail bharo aandolan ...


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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 24 Aug 2011 22:51

^^^ In contrast to this AH told the crowd yesterday that they shouldn't let police arrest him .

I think from here onwards the movement will lose steam.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby sumishi » 24 Aug 2011 22:54

IndraD wrote:^^^ In contrast to this AH told the crowd yesterday that they shouldn't let police arrest him .
...

That's because he says he thinks that the govt might use the people's resistance to his arrest to force a crackdown blaming violence.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Muppalla » 24 Aug 2011 22:58

AnimeshP wrote:- Govt said Anna's health is Team Anna's problem .. not a govt problem ..


If it is true then it is a good begining. This fasting blackmail (also called as satyagraha) will not be a tool in future

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 24 Aug 2011 23:00

Mood somber on RL ground- Kiran bedi & others panicking, arrest imminent.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby shaardula » 24 Aug 2011 23:01

anna,
no violence. gherao MPs, jail bharo. no violence.
calls govt hukum shahi. we thought some congress may be good ,but all are looters. no future for country with these people.
jail bharo all across country. no violence BMKJ. VM. IZ.

this is all presuming AH gets arrested.
what happens if govt does not do anything.
Last edited by shaardula on 24 Aug 2011 23:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 24 Aug 2011 23:03

synopsis-

Anna Hazare makes a late night appearance before Ramlila Maidan crowd after breakdown of talks between his team and the government. He says:
- Government's autocratic face exposed.
- I fear violence if police tires to evict me.
- Any violence over my eviction will hurt me. Rather you should continue to protest by picketing MPs.
- I am ready to go to the jail.
- My health is fine.
- If the government resorts to foul play it will be very unfortunate for the country.

Arvind Kejriwal speaks from Ramlila Maidan, says:
- The government made it clear that Jan Lokpal Bill cannot be tabled in Parliament.
- Government said it will make a new draft and you can give your suggestions.
- Government refused to commit against evicting Anna Hazare from Ramlila Maidan.
- Government said if Anna Hazare doesn't break his fast, it is your problem.
- We fear police may evict Anna Hazare after midnight.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby AnimeshP » 24 Aug 2011 23:18

shaardula wrote:anna,
no violence. gherao MPs, jail bharo. no violence.
calls govt hukum shahi. we thought some congress may be good ,but all are looters. no future for country with these people.
jail bharo all across country. no violence BMKJ. VM. IZ.

this is all presuming AH gets arrested.
what happens if govt does not do anything.


Well Anna Hazare just upped the ante .. he just stated that irrespective of whether the govt takes him into custody or not, they will move to phase 2 of the agitation (jail bharo and gherao of MPs) because the govt has gone back on its words ...

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby AnimeshP » 24 Aug 2011 23:20

Pranab Mukherjee on CNN-IBN saying that "Govt never said Anna's health is not its problem" ... "My statement has been twisted out of context" .. Things are getting serious if Pranab Mukherjee is giving media interviews at 12:00 AM ...

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby AnimeshP » 24 Aug 2011 23:28

Now Salman Khursheed on Times Now ... Either govt in major damage control mode or planning something big ...

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Dhiman » 24 Aug 2011 23:31

AnimeshP wrote:Pranab Mukherjee on CNN-IBN saying that "Govt never said Anna's health is not its problem" ... "My statement has been twisted out of context" .. Things are getting serious if Pranab Mukherjee is giving media interviews at 12:00 AM ...


Off course, how could the venerated your highness ever commit any mistake let alone flip flop. These guys are such a bunch of professional lairs. After all he won the loterry (a.k.a last elections) and hence your arrogance is entitled to fool and rool the masses to please his corrupt masters for next five years.

Will bend to anyone, except their own people. :evil: Unfortunately Anna is not a foreign entity, nor does he have money to buy up MLA's in parliament. How can the government move without a bribe after all. Useless Idots.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Prem » 24 Aug 2011 23:46

To bring the real desired,constructive change and for the good of country, Anna must sacrifice himself. Real indian heros are the one who got martyred fighting knowing well the odds againt them.People sing songs of Bhagat Singh/Bose/ Rani /Shiva ji /Maharana partap etc for inspiration sake and not of Nehru/Gandhi/Prliament/ Democracy/Secularism etc. A Martyred Anna will do more for India than Anna forced to live in prepertual ICU.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Virupaksha » 24 Aug 2011 23:54

Prem ji,
dont give ammunition to others as a bait. It is a clear IED

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby kenop » 25 Aug 2011 00:00

Anna is one tough cookie. So, whatever he says would have meaning (do not let them arrest me: yesterday and let them: today). Just look at the Raj Ghat meditation and Tihar occupation. Support base is not narrow. Reportedly, one sitting SC judge was on stage today and also one police constable talked about his support for Anna.
Interesting responses to GoI moves may be in store.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby SaiK » 25 Aug 2011 00:00

Jeeeeeeeeeeeee.. now if anna dies, the corruption dies along with it. see, what happened after MG died, the "sathya" in sathyagraha died as well. MG ghost is still unhappy. Don't do an other murder now, even in dreams. Let him leave to natural death. The sins of anna will get us even worse in the future.

Anna must be made a national hero.. and get our goals and objectives done. ZERO corruption for all walks of life.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Dhiman » 25 Aug 2011 00:02

$1 billion for each minister in the government for bribe + $5 billion for Maino clan and I will bet my life savings that this bill will move.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Altair » 25 Aug 2011 00:06

deleted
Last edited by archan on 25 Aug 2011 02:08, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: lets think before posting.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby SaiK » 25 Aug 2011 00:12

Why not freeze all accounts before the bill is passed.. and much before they transfer funds. :idea:

or evacuate them, and dig up to find the gold pots.
Last edited by SaiK on 25 Aug 2011 00:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby sourab_c » 25 Aug 2011 00:12

The lack of any political support to Anna's movement is the real concern. The newly found arrogance in the government has emerged after the consensus was drawn in the all-party meet against a strong Lokpal. The main purpose of the all-party meet was for the govt. to gauge the political mood and they now realize that there is no political support for Anna.

All the goons and dacoits are fighting Anna together now.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby SaiK » 25 Aug 2011 00:15

BJP f-ed this whole thing up.. they could not get anna on to their likings. They will face dark matter soon.

I pray anna start a new party, and get this settled... he gets 2/3rd majority, of course without booth capturing and the electronic fraud votes onlee.


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