The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby sum » 27 Aug 2011 21:37

Relevant comment in rediff:
1. First a weak lok Pal Bill
2. Call him RSS Agent
3. Manishji Tiwarijis favourite phrases for this RSS Agent
4. Dilly Dally posturing by PC and Sibal
5. Mickey Mouse Pms brave utterance on Independence Day
6. Rahulji Gandhiji showing his presence in parliament and giving his sermons from a prepared text trying hard to change the course of lokpal.
7. lastly the least Pm trying to make it Parliament Vs Civil Society Debate,.

Last heard Pranab giving all the credit to Sonia G for showing congress the way in framing a strong lok pal Bill

And we are patting ourself for such a mature display of "democracy" even we plumb lower in sycophancy as evidenced by Pranab's and J.Scindia's speeches...

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Dasari » 27 Aug 2011 21:48

Good, they passed the resolution. Some committee is going to review it. Then what? Do we come back after 20 years and start it all over again?. I hope Anna gives another deadline by which time the Parliament has to enact the law. Inspite of all the nice speeches in Parliament, I could sense that majority of them are uncomfortable with the bill. They are just buying time. The moment public loses interest they will dump it. I hope Anna recharges his energy and starts another fast in couple of months.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby sumishi » 27 Aug 2011 21:50

Spot the incongruity is the following tale:
A group of known thieves are noticed by the people, chased, and cornered. The cornered thieves agree to the concerns of the people, and promise to do something about it with lucid and clear speeches, and very quickly at that. The statement making the rounds now is that the thieves have risen to the occasion, and its a win-win for both sides. Three cheers for the thieves.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby JwalaMukhi » 27 Aug 2011 21:55

Muppalla wrote:I don't know, I still see this as some bakwaas. What is the big deal as it looks like a some way to break the fast. We passed several resolutions without the resolutions becoming laws. Now they passed a resolution and media is drumming up as great achievement. Next Anna will break his fast instead of dying for the nation on corruption cause. Tomorrow will be a new day and the parties will claim they and they themselves are the reason for victory.

Will the law get passed?

Tomorrow 10 am Anna will come out of fast and another drama for another day.

+1
Well everyside has actually realized the limitations. This was a good experiment for learning safe boundaries. Everyone has opted for face saving path. None lost, none won. Another drama for another day.
The negatives from the law of unintended consequences was staring on the horizon, and everyone placed safest bets. Status quo ante, at best.
Still need to wait and see if Raoul vinci gained through this. Only time will tell.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby shivajisisodia » 27 Aug 2011 21:56

Dasari wrote:Good, they passed the resolution. Some committee is going to review it. Then what? Do we come back after 20 years and start it all over again?. I hope Anna gives another deadline by which time the Parliament has to enact the law. Inspite of all the nice speeches in Parliament, I could sense that majority of them are uncomfortable with the bill. They are just buying time. The moment public loses interest they will dump it. I hope Anna recharges his energy and starts another fast in couple of months.



The parliament is a band of unwashed, unkempt, shamelessly uncouth thieves. In normal times, they all hate each other. But when there is a prospect of police exposing their thievery, they all band together and proclaim the "supremacy of the parliament" and "sanctity of the electoral process". What I saw was all the thieves banding together. Laloo said it best. We are all in it together. He reflected their common desperation when he even tried to praise LK Advani and Munde of the BJP, trying to garner unity of the thieves.

These pigs will not do anything. You are right. We will be back after 20 years, with nothing but more zeros added to the scam figures.

Unless our entire population has the stomach for a real Mahabharata, which I see almost no prospects for, because it will have to be fought outside of the framework of our constitution, we are doomed. I suggest we give up all this serious stuff and have one big huge fifty year party of drinking and merriment, till the end comes and go down smiling.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby sugriva » 27 Aug 2011 21:57

^^^^
Somewhere this denigrating of politicians as thieves/rascals/ba$****$ etc has to stop for a healthy continuation of democratic politics. If Kejriwala and Kiran Bedi were to enter parliament tomorrow would they also be labelled as rascals? Let us give our institutions some respect if not the people within.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby JwalaMukhi » 27 Aug 2011 22:03

sugriva wrote:^^^^
Somewhere this denigrating of politicians as thieves/rascals/ba$****$ etc has to stop for a healthy continuation of democratic politics. If Kejriwala and Kiran Bedi were to enter parliament tomorrow would they also be labelled as rascals? Let us give our institutions some respect if not the people within.

+10.
The point is team anna is very ambivalent about politicians. But time and again Kejriwala says this requires political solutions. But, political solutions without getting politicians onboard? That probably, happens only in mars.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby shivajisisodia » 27 Aug 2011 22:05

sugriva wrote:^^^^
Somewhere this denigrating of politicians as thieves/rascals/ba$****$ etc has to stop for a healthy continuation of democratic politics. If Kejriwala and Kiran Bedi were to enter parliament tomorrow would they also be labelled as rascals? Let us give our institutions some respect if not the people within.


Dont worry. The only way Kejriwala or Kiran Bedi or Sugriva will get elected to Parliament as per our current electoral system is if they become thieves or pigs. That is not likely to happen.

Ordinarily, of course, we should show respect for all human beings. These are not ordinary times and whether this bunch can be called human beings is debatable at best.

In the end its all about truth. I am open to being corrected on facts. If they are not pigs and thieves then they should not be called that. If they are, then they should be called that. It is as simple as that.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Pranay » 27 Aug 2011 22:09

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 760547.cms

Anna Hazare declared on Saturday that the nation's people had won a great victory as he announced he would end his fast at 10am on Sunday.

Hazare thanked people for their support on the Lokpal agitation but cautioned that only half the battle had been won.

"We have won only half the battle," said Hazare standing before wildly cheering crowds and flanked by his key aides and Union minister Vilasrao Deshmukh, former Maharashtra chief minister who has been an interlocutor.

"I congratulate every MP on what has happened today." Anna Hazare said.


Earlier, Union minister Vilasrao Deshmukh, along with Congress MP Sandeep Dikshit, reached the Ramlila Maidan and handed over a copy of the Lokpal resolution and a letter of the Prime Minister to Anna Hazare.

"Parliament has spoken. It is the will of the people," a smiling Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said while coming out of the House after the debate that ended at 8pm.


2 in 1 party tonight - Hurricane Irene and Parliamentary Resolution - A historic day indeed!
Last edited by Pranay on 27 Aug 2011 22:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby jamwal » 27 Aug 2011 22:09

I spent the afternoon in Ramlila Maidan today. It was an amazing experience to be surrounded with so many people who kept pouring in from all over India. Auto drivers, farmers, house wives, professionals, students, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims. Never ever saw such a diverse crowd from up close. No important announcement was made when I was there. Got to know of it only now.
BTW, there were quite a few BJP workers in the crowd and presumably acting as volunteers.

Also saw a few printed boards in Chandani Chowk area which said something to this effect, "We the residents of Chadnani Chowk are ashamed to have Kapil Sibbal as our representative in Parliament." :rotfl:

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Dilbu » 27 Aug 2011 22:09

I think this is a milestone in Indian democracy. It is maturing fast and I hope the participation of youth who seem to have got their priorities right will power India to new heights. Jai Hind.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby gakakkad » 27 Aug 2011 22:11



You have too high an opinion of Americans. I guess you exposure to Amecians is limited.



i have treated them... that too in a community hospital , where the poorest and the most uneducated ones often turn up...And I don't have a particularly high opinion of them... I merely said that , even if they don't know geography or math , they have a decent level of understanding of the civic rights.. I mean even if they don't know the technicalities , they know what they can expect...

These video's are often shot to create sensationalism.

The problem is that your exposure to Indians seem too limited...I mean the section of population that can be considered representative of India.. I was a med student in India , where the poorest Indians come to get treated.. Often they are abused and mistreated... Something one can't get away doing in the US...

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby shivajisisodia » 27 Aug 2011 22:20

gakakkad wrote:
Ashashi wrote -

You have too high an opinion of Americans. I guess you exposure to Amecians is limited.


You are right, Kakkar.

Anyone who thinks that a Jay Leno comedy skit is representative of anything, least of all, all Americans, proves the fact that literacy and education are two different things, with one having very little to do with the other.

Your analysis is right on the mark.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Venkarl » 27 Aug 2011 22:21

sumishi wrote:
sum wrote:Sorry about OT( couldn't resist) but in the Jay Leno video:

Q : Which president was called tricky dick?
A : Bill Clinton
...

Heard in the Mai no video
Q. Which prime minster is called I, Robot?
A. _______ :mrgreen:


In that movie, the robot had some intelligence. :mrgreen:

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Mahendra » 27 Aug 2011 22:21

Dilbu wrote:I think this is a milestone in Indian democracy. It is maturing fast and I hope the participation of youth who seem to have got their priorities right will power India to new heights. Jai Hind.


Yenn Yarr Eye sitting in Dubai declaring milestones in Indian democrazy? No maturity-vachurity saar, and the yooth will not mature overnight, this is the same yooth that voted the KanGrezz back into power in Mumbai barely 6 months after 26-11. Incidentally it was the same Luxuryking countryface who delivered the PM's message to 1000-E.
With all due respect to fellow Abdul Dilbuji, let us not get carried away with what is essentially just a resolution that was passed in parliament, just like many others like POK and Aksai Chin are parts of India.
Nobody gained nothing here except perhaps 1000-e who might just win a lok sabha seat if he chooses his constituency well. Others who supported him including the bollywood fools will find themselves at the wrong side of this vindictive sarkar that made life difficult for people like V Anand just because he shared stage with NaMo

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby jamwal » 27 Aug 2011 22:24

Theo_Fidel wrote:
Over hunger/starvation and female infanticide. Or chronic joblessness and lack of health care. Or lack of quality schooling or brutish inflation. or lack of drinking water. Or even malaria which kills 100,000 every single year in India. Or preventable infectious diseases that kill well over 1 Million + every single year in India. How about Traffic fatalities about 100,000 every year. Or maternal mortality that kills 40,000 women every year.

There is anger over corruption but the poor would never put it at #1 problem. And don't give me the shill that corruption causes all these problems. Simply not true. We havn't invested in our people for a long time. Even simple traffic rules education is not done. Yet we expect corruption to disappear from our population.

There is a clear disconnect between the middle class and the truly poor on this issue. The middle class needs to grow up.


I'm truly sorry if you find my words offensive, but you have absolutely NO idea about what you are talking about. Yuu just talk about facts not reasons.
Why do we have traffic fatalities ? because people can get away with breaking rules by paying bribes which in the end lower safety margins and cause accidents. YOu talk about educating people. Sure do it by all means. But bribe culture means that even biggest idiots who can't differentiate between clutch and accelerator can get driving licenses. In many cases they can pay Rs 100 to a pandu and keep driving even without license.

40000 maternal mortalities ? because poor can't afford or have access to quality healthcare. Sarkari dispensaries/hospitals which are meant to cater to such people rarely if ever function properly because doctors and satff can falsify their attendance and get away with much worse like selling off medicines and equipment in market.

YOu don't explain on your ideas of reducing mortalities without punishing corrupt people who are responsible for all the mess. The rules that we have are all good. Corruption means that these rules and policies are never implemented. This Lokpal bill is meant to ensure that rules and enforced properly. Your kind of reality works only if every one is law abiding and good natured etc. etc. Wouldn't work in real life


Please, keep this middle class-poor class-rich class kind of analysis away. Scale and occasion might differ but corruption affects everybody in different ways.
Last edited by jamwal on 27 Aug 2011 22:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Dasari » 27 Aug 2011 22:25

sugriva wrote:^^^^
Somewhere this denigrating of politicians as thieves/rascals/ba$****$ etc has to stop for a healthy continuation of democratic politics.

Are you from a different planet? Are you really not aware of politicians in India and offended by name calling of them as 'thieves/rascals'. Incredulous.

sugriva wrote: If Kejriwala and Kiran Bedi were to enter parliament tomorrow would they also be labelled as rascals?
Absolutely. The way the politics are played out, there is no way they can enter parliament without getting dirty. Also it is fair to call a group 'rascals' if 99% of them are rascals. More of rhetorical expression. Don't obfuscate the real issue by looking for syntactical errors.

sugriva wrote: Let us give our institutions some respect if not the people within.
All this is an effort to restore the sanctity of the institutions.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Mahendra » 27 Aug 2011 22:25

I broadly agree with gakakkad.

The average westerner has a more basic understanding of his rights and is more than willing to exercise them. The average Indian might be aware of his rights but is sure of one thing, he can only exercise them after paying hafta

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Pranay » 27 Aug 2011 22:27

http://live.indiatimes.com/default.cms?timesnow=1

Shri Pranab Mukherjee - the right sound bytes - facial expression is very tense - complete disconnect between words and facial expression.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby jamwal » 27 Aug 2011 22:34

Mahendra wrote:
Dilbu wrote:I think this is a milestone in Indian democracy. It is maturing fast and I hope the participation of youth who seem to have got their priorities right will power India to new heights. Jai Hind.


Yenn Yarr Eye sitting in Dubai declaring milestones in Indian democrazy? No maturity-vachurity saar, and the yooth will not mature overnight, this is the same yooth that voted the KanGrezz back into power in Mumbai barely 6 months after 26-11. Incidentally it was the same Luxuryking countryface who delivered the PM's message to 1000-E.
With all due respect to fellow Abdul Dilbuji, let us not get carried away with what is essentially just a resolution that was passed in parliament, just like many others like POK and Aksai Chin are parts of India.
Nobody gained nothing here except perhaps 1000-e who might just win a lok sabha seat if he chooses his constituency well. Others who supported him including the bollywood fools will find themselves at the wrong side of this vindictive sarkar that made life difficult for people like V Anand just because he shared stage with NaMo



Cynical words but true. In Jammu, BJP couldn't win anything even after the Congress had it's ass whipped by public just months before over Amrnath Yatra issue. BJP lost only because of fielding wrong candidates in wrong places.

Passing laws is all nice but it'll all amount to nothing if ordinary people don't change. I don't expect things to change overnight even small steps will do. A beginning has already been made. It's important that the aam janta doesn't forget Anna's message when it truly matters.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby sumishi » 27 Aug 2011 22:35

Venkarl wrote:
sumishi wrote:Heard in the Mai no video
Q. Which prime minster is called I, Robot?
A. _______ :mrgreen:


In that movie, the robot had some intelligence. :mrgreen:

I this reality show, the footage stops at the title onlee. :mrgreen:

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Pranay » 27 Aug 2011 22:35

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?732761

Taking credit for getting Parliament to agree on the three main demands of Anna Hazare, BJP today said the party will now take up the issue strongly in the Standing Committee.

"Annaji's demand was presented before Parliament by BJP and Parliament has passed it as the Sense of the House. People were with Annaji on roads and BJP was with him in Parliament," party spokesperson Shahnawaz Hussain told reporters here.

He said this was "a victory of Parliament, Anna Hazare and the whole country."


CPI(M) leader Sitaram Yechury said the all the three issues rasied by Team Anna have been forwarded to the parliamentary Standing Committee for its "perusal within the constitutional framework. This we hope will satisfy Team Anna."

He, however, pointed out that "nothing can be binding on the Standing Committee... But if there is a window for the Standing Committee to reject this, there is also a door for it to accept them."

CPI leader D Raja said Parliament has given due consideration to issues raised by Hazare and "now it is only Parliament which will have to go through the law-making process. Parliament is supreme and law-making is its exclusive domain. Everyone should respect that."

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Pranav » 27 Aug 2011 22:36

sumishi wrote:
Jarita wrote:like social security number in US.

[OT]So illegals will get UIDs, is it?


You first need to label all residents before you can separate the residents into citizens and non-citizens.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby JwalaMukhi » 27 Aug 2011 22:37

Politicians are the punching bag. Nobody can go wrong if one abuses them. Not so fast. The politicians are shrewd and are laughing all the way to the bank, and one is at liberty to call them whatever one wishes, as long as they vote for them.

There is this convenience of blaming others, because it is hard to introspect and see why they voted such and such. Worse most of the placard carrying members would not venture out to vote on polling day and prefer to spend time watching some bollywood starlet swinging. But lo and behold! one can bellow one's lungs out abusing politicians. Yes, that's right keep doing that and politicians are going to swiss banks in style.
Do not worry even if one elects a nalayak into position, there is always lokpal to remedy that. In the meantime, there is brief interlude as to how the responsibility of voting public is more important in dialing 102, 103, 104... etc, than actually exercising vote judiciously. Well emotional blackmail and appealing to heart is always forte of the placard waving crowd.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 27 Aug 2011 22:43

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 761345.cms

India celebrates on street.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/world ... india.html

Indian parliament capitulates to demand of people on corruption

http://www.ndtv.com/album/listing/news/ ... tory-11213

Elated people come out on street

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 27 Aug 2011 22:47



Amir Khan on ground

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Dasari » 27 Aug 2011 22:53

Pranay wrote:http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?732761


He, however, pointed out that "nothing can be binding on the Standing Committee... But if there is a window for the Standing Committee to reject this, there is also a door for it to accept them."

CPI leader D Raja said Parliament has given due consideration to issues raised by Hazare and "now it is only Parliament which will have to go through the law-making process. Parliament is supreme and law-making is its exclusive domain. Everyone should respect that.
"


It looks to me a stage is set to reject the Anna's Lokpal bill. All this resolution from Parliament is a drama. Now the standing committee will take their sweet time and ultimately reject it on some flimsy grounds. Finally parliaments's Will be touted supreme to people's Will. They will challenge Anna to start a party if he can stomach it and try to go all the way to the top if he has any hope to pass the bill. The politicians know when it comes to election, all this middle class backlash will amount to nothing. They have enough vote banks to survive. Long live India.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 27 Aug 2011 22:56

MPs upset over media coverage of Anna hazare

Is dibbe se bahut dikkat hai" (This idiot box gives a lot of trouble)," said Sharad Yadav (JD-U) in the Lok Sabha, referring to the non-stop coverage of Hazare's indefinite fast at Ramlila Maidan in the capital.

The private news channels are so obsessed with Hazare that they have stopped showing other important news especially floods in different parts of the country particularly in eastern India, he said, participating in a debate on the Lokpal issue.

He wondered why Congress MPs regularly visit TV studios, participate in the discussions and subject themselves to scrutiny by "Bengali babu moshai". :rotfl:

Amid frequent applause from all sections of the House, Yadav said, "The country is not run by discussions on television channels, but by debates in Parliament".

The 24-hour news channels, he added, "are not allowing us to sleep."


BSP leader Dara Singh Chauhan too said that television channels do a lot to improve their TRP ratings.

Rewati Raman Singh (SP) demanded that both electronic and print media should be brought under ambit of the Lokpal.

DMK member TKS Elangovan too attacked the media for its role in the movement saying it has turned the crusade against corruption into a fight against Parliament and Constitution.

"In democracy people are the judges and not media", he added.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/MPs--flay ... 38543.aspx

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 27 Aug 2011 23:05

IndraD wrote:

Fiery speech of Om Puri on Ramlila ground few hours ago which is being heavily criticised on media


Privilege motion against Om Puri in Rajya Sabha
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Priviledg ... 38617.aspx

Now with pressure over knives will be out against many who appeared on stage with AH

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby shivajisisodia » 27 Aug 2011 23:08

Now brace for a full frontal attack on the TV News channels from all the politicians across party lines.

1. The print press is already corrupt and harmless. It was tamed in the late 70s and 80s. There doesnt exist a truly independent print newspaper in India anymore.

2. Some, not all the news channels, being new had not been totally tamed yet. Now, their owners will be threatened, bribed, cajoled and arm twisted into "falling in line".

3. Major politicians will now stop visiting the TV studios, realizing that they lose more by appearing on TV than not appearing.

4. Only Manoj Tiwari clones who will be the official "mouthpieces" of their parties will be allowed to appear on TV and give canned, fake answers, to mislead the people.

It will be ensured that just like Indian Express was at the vanguard of spreading the anti government message during emergency and tamed later, the TV Channels will also be tamed, so that a repeat of Ana type movement or a pure people's spontaneous movement never rises again. There will be no news media to spread their message. It is not an accident that there arose no mass movement against any meaningful issue such as corruption between 1980s (when Indian Express was tamed) and now (when some independent TV News Channels emerged). It wasnt as if, the middle class wasnt alienated in the 80s and the 90s, but they did not have a mouthpiece then.

Where is the Constitution now ? Where is the freedom of the press now? Where is the parliamentary democracy now ?

All the nationalists and well meaning Indians will forever be prisoners of the vast majority of the unenlightened and the corrupt, who form the electoral backbone of these politicians.
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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby shyam » 27 Aug 2011 23:13

jamwal wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:
Over hunger/starvation and female infanticide. Or chronic joblessness and lack of health care. Or lack of quality schooling or brutish inflation. or lack of drinking water. Or even malaria which kills 100,000 every single year in India. Or preventable infectious diseases that kill well over 1 Million + every single year in India. How about Traffic fatalities about 100,000 every year. Or maternal mortality that kills 40,000 women every year.

There is anger over corruption but the poor would never put it at #1 problem. And don't give me the shill that corruption causes all these problems. Simply not true. We havn't invested in our people for a long time. Even simple traffic rules education is not done. Yet we expect corruption to disappear from our population.

There is a clear disconnect between the middle class and the truly poor on this issue. The middle class needs to grow up.


I'm truly sorry if you find my words offensive, but you have absolutely NO idea about what you are talking about. Yuu just talk about facts not reasons.
Why do we have traffic fatalities ? because people can get away with breaking rules by paying bribes which in the end lower safety margins and cause accidents. YOu talk about educating people. Sure do it by all means. But bribe culture means that even biggest idiots who can't differentiate between clutch and accelerator can get driving licenses. In many cases they can pay Rs 100 to a pandu and keep driving even without license.

40000 maternal mortalities ? because poor can't afford or have access to quality healthcare. Sarkari dispensaries/hospitals which are meant to cater to such people rarely if ever function properly because doctors and satff can falsify their attendance and get away with much worse like selling off medicines and equipment in market.

YOu don't explain on your ideas of reducing mortalities without punishing corrupt people who are responsible for all the mess. The rules that we have are all good. Corruption means that these rules and policies are never implemented. This Lokpal bill is meant to ensure that rules and enforced properly. Your kind of reality works only if every one is law abiding and good natured etc. etc. Wouldn't work in real life


Please, keep this middle class-poor class-rich class kind of analysis away. Scale and occasion might differ but corruption affects everybody in different ways.


I have to quote entire post to set the context. The views you accuse generally come from Yem Bea Yaay driven growth models. There has to be a good economic growth, and other metrics as defined by WHO, UN and other assorted global organizations. Corruption that hinders investments are only considered as problem for them. Otherwise they live inside a corrupt system - you only need to look closely at Wallstreet to understand that.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby shivajisisodia » 27 Aug 2011 23:14

IndraD wrote:
Fiery speech of Om Puri on Ramlila ground few hours ago which is being heavily criticised on media

Privilege motion against Om Puri in Rajya Sabha
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Priviledg ... 38617.aspx

Now with pressure over knives will be out against many who appeared on stage with AH


What about freedom of speech. Is saying strong things against MPs not protected speech in India ? Can anyone enlighten us on this ?

I am with Om Puri. I repeat everything he said. If the government wants to take action against me, so be it.

Moderators, I dont mean to get the forum into trouble, only put myself on the line. If this post has any adverse impact on the forum, please delete this post.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Pranay » 27 Aug 2011 23:24

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/world ... 844049C510

Lawmakers endorsed demands by Anna Hazare, the anticorruption campaigner who has been on a hunger strike, for legislation to fight graft.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Prem » 27 Aug 2011 23:36

Few thoughts /questions on Anna's success. The masters of color revolutions must be studying his case now to implement their agenda within India ( And China) . Time to be more vigilant about them and their Bharre ke Tatto RNIs. Cleaning corrupt practices will lay down the foundation for long term clean governece , political /reform and freedom as well economic growth but do we now get the black money back from Swiss accounts and how fast ?In this uncertain time, The one and half T will go long way in consolidating India' position in global community of nations. May be it calls for new thread to figure out the expected or actual gains from the movement as well chartering new course of India from here .

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby IndraD » 27 Aug 2011 23:41

shivajisisodia wrote:
IndraD wrote:Privilege motion against Om Puri in Rajya Sabha
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Priviledg ... 38617.aspx


What about freedom of speech. Is saying strong things against MPs not protected speech in India ? Can anyone enlighten us on this ?

Privilege motion has power to send a person to prison as well AFAIK, I feel bad for Om Puri

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby SaiK » 27 Aug 2011 23:43

berry berry jimple to go by rules. have checks and balances at all aspects of life.. plug all loopholes by verification and validation process that is clean of corruption. rest will follow through all automagically.

simple steps to corruption free society is have the loopholes plugged.. be it in the merit based education or babooze swindling trillions of dollars.

increase public participation in the social setup.. consider living outside their home as second home.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Bhaskar » 27 Aug 2011 23:49

Apologies if posted already... I am going to quote in the entire article..err blog.... I do not agree with what the article says but want to get a feel of what we all believe in... Socialism or a Market driven democracy and where Hazare stands?

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2011 ... ral-india/

Could Ralegan Siddhi hold the key to India’s future or is it a relic of the past?

This obscure corner of rural Maharashtra, home to a few thousand inhabitants, is in the spotlight thanks to the celebrity surrounding its most famous resident, Anna Hazare, champion of the Jan Lokpal or people’s anti-corruption watchdog bill.

I’ve argued previously that the bill won’t accomplish its stated goals and is a distraction rather than a cure to corruption.

Leaving that debate aside, the methods of Mr. Hazare and a small group of trusted aides and advisors, widely known as “Team Anna,” have been questioned by many commentators as well as the government. Mr. Hazare’s methods are seen by some as jeopardizing the functioning of parliamentary democracy by trying to impose the will of a few on the many.

But it is worth recalling that it all began in Ralegan Siddhi, a drought-ridden and impoverished village characterized by alcoholism and social deprivation. In what is now almost a textbook example of grassroots, sustainable and equitable development, Mr. Hazare, upon his return to the village in 1975, along with his fellow villagers, managed to transform it into one featuring sustainable water conservation and management, abundant agricultural output, and high human development. Much of this happened within a decade.

Could such an experience be replicated nationwide? And what methods did Mr. Hazare employ to achieve this?

A study by economist Aasha Kapur Mehta, funded by the UK’s Department for International Development, and based on field research and conversations with Mr. Hazare, painstakingly documents how this was accomplished.

Look at a few representative statistics. In the decade following Mr. Hazare’s arrival on the scene, per capita income in Ralegan Siddhi increased eightfold. From having a school that only went up to grade 4, high school completion rates are now over 85%. The infant mortality rate in 2007 was 27.42 per 1,000 live births, significantly lower than the national average of 50 in 2009.

Equally impressive, the village made great strides towards both gender equality and social inclusion, with Dalits now fully integrated in the community. Professor Mehta told me via e-mail that when she returned recently with several government officials, Ralegan Siddhi “left a lasting impression” on them in terms of the progress the village has made.

As the Mehta study and other accounts make clear, a great deal of the success is owed to Mr. Hazare’s personal charisma and galvanizing force, which allow him to rely heavily on unpaid volunteer labor or “Shramadaan” and a “team” spirit which puts community over self-interest.

The Hindu religious ethos is central to this concept of community. Strikingly Mr. Hazare’s work in Ralegan Siddhi began by using his personal funds to rebuild the local temple, which won the admiration and affection of the villagers and paved the way for his further reforms.

And where persuasion and cajoling don’t work, Mr. Hazare has not hesitated to use coercion and shaming. In the case of the village’s two-child policy, reflecting Mr. Hazare’s support for family planning, benefits from various government programs were denied by the “gram sabha”, or village council, to those families not falling in line. In another instance, when youths violated the village’s prohibition on alcohol, Mr. Hazare publicly flogged them with his army belt.

This particular combination of charm and brutality — Mr. Hazare acts almost as a “benevolent dictator” in the village, an incongruous blend of Mahatma Gandhi and Chairman Mao — is difficult to replicate and perhaps sits uneasily within India’s pluralistic democracy.

Economists and political scientists have long debated whether a democracy such as India’s or an autocratic government such as China’s is best able to deliver economic development. The conventional view for years was that an autocratic system was better able to marshal resources, while the competing interests within a democracy would be unable to do so. India’s recent success has unsettled that conventional wisdom.

His personal charm aside, the evidence suggests which side of this divide Mr. Hazare falls on. Activist Mukul Sharma, in field research on Ralegan Siddhi, quotes a village “sarpanch” or leader of the village council: “Whatever Anna says, we do. The whole village follows his words. Anna’s orders work like the army.”

The reliance on altruism and volunteerism with a dose of coercion goes against the grain of India’s post-liberalization market economy, which works more along the lines of laissez-faire.
Adam Smith, the father of modern economics, famously termed this process the “invisible hand,” whereby the social good, suitably regulated, arises from the healthy competition of individual self-interest. This market-driven approach is anathema to Mr. Hazare, who has always emphasized the Gandhian notion of self-sufficiency at the level of the village, rather than commerce, trade, and specialization which are the bases of the modern economy.

So does the success of Ralegan Siddhi mean that Mr. Hazare’s village-led model of grassroots development, with a dose of mild authoritarianism, is a better way forward for rural India?

The answer has to lie in whether this is a model that can be used elsewhere or whether it relies solely on the character of its architect.

A nearby village, Hivre Bazar, has attempted and succeeded in reproducing that system.

Yet, otherwise, the movement has failed to take off. Why?
The crux of the matter is that what fit the particular socio-cultural and economic conditions of Ralegan Siddhi in 1975 may not translate so easily to the nation as a whole today. The combination of a charismatic leader and a communitarian approach to development seems increasingly at odds with the heightened aspirations of individuals unshackled by economic liberalization.

Indeed, some residents of Ralegan Siddhi itself have expressed such dissatisfaction. Overall, the consensual and paternalistic approach that has served Mr. Hazare so well in transforming the life and economy of the village sits uneasily within the framework of India’s contemporary market-driven democracy.
Last edited by Bhaskar on 27 Aug 2011 23:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby shivajisisodia » 27 Aug 2011 23:51

I am far more concerned about us living in an authoritarian society going forward where in the name of "parliament being supreme", no public movement will be allowed and all the news channels will be "tamed", so there will be no exposure of scams and scamsters, nor will there be any propogation of any people's movment ideas.

This is the first time I have heard this nonsense of "parliament being supreme". In a democracy, people's movements are allowed, precisely to check the wrong actions of the parliament. It is a necessary check and balance. Remember, Emergency was declared by the Parliament. Why did people take to the streets then ? Parliament in a democracy is not supreme. The Constitution and the people are. The constitution gives the people a right to demonstrate peacefully and put forward their demands peacefully, regardless of what those demands are. The Constitution also permits people to fast. Fasting is not holding someone's head to a gun. This is an absolutely false and self serving analogy. Gun and fasting. They are polar opposites. Guns are violent, fasting is non-violent.

Today it is "parliament being supreme", tomorrow they will say "horses are fish" or any other nonsense, just to say something, so they have an excuse to suppress dissent and continue stealing.

AGain, beware, the taming of the media. That is what is coming next. That is one way to ensure there are no more scams.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby Anantha » 28 Aug 2011 00:07

I have heard the question from childhood "who will bell the cat"
That question has been answered today.

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Re: The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev II

Postby sumishi » 28 Aug 2011 00:11

shivajisisodia wrote:I am far more concerned about us living in an authoritarian society going forward where in the name of "parliament being supreme", no public movement will be allowed and all the news channels will be "tamed", so there will be no exposure of scams and scamsters, nor will there be any propogation of any people's movment ideas.
... beware, the taming of the media. That is what is coming next. That is one way to ensure there are no more scams.
+10


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