Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 2011

[shiv]

But make no mistake, both TSP and US know where the final Lakshman Rekha is. And TSP RAPE are not that stupid to cross that. Even on the current brinkmanship, my gut feel is that TSP has already wired some gubo pleadings.

CRamS while on the subject of losing the plot, may I point out that the above statement is a cognitive construct. It is a way of reaching a comforting conclusion that conforms to your beliefs when confronted with information that says exactly the opposite. What I find unique about your posts is not love of India or contempt for anyone, but a deep respect for America and belief in its power. You do not want to step outside of any box that does not accommodate the thought that the US is invincible or denies that it can be weak - especially when faced with some seriously smart foes. Having said that, this attitude that you carry with so much faith in "God and America" is common to a lot of patriotic Americans. Nothing wrong in that, but your speciality in my view is in choosing to contest any claim or statement made by anyone that the US may be weak in some way, especially with regard to Pakistan. You know that everyone agrees with you about Indian weakness. For you that agreement is insufficient. It has to be accompanied by an acknowledgement of US strength. You cannot countenance the idea that the US may be weak. That is your belief, and not everyone else's belief.

I think this is where you lost the plot along with the nation that you respect so deeply. I am just putting this down for the sake of saying what I think. I am not interested in proving that you are wrong or that I am right. Events will inexorably show what is happening in the world. I am just an observer of events and people.

[shiv]

AnimeshP,

Give me a f$%^ing break. US has crossed oceans to protect its interests, and faces an enermy in TSP which blows hot and cold.

TSP crosses the border and enters India and slaughters Indians and dares India to a nuke showdown.

You don't see the difference?

The US has crossed borders to protects its interests and has failed to protect its interests. India has not crossed any borders and still failed to protect its interests. The only difference I can see is the act of crossing borders. It seems to make no difference either way. Why cross borders if you are going to fail and give up as the US has done? It is cheaper not to cross borders.

[shiv]

One does not have to follow every hare-brained action of US. India's best policy, most honorable policy would have been, no talks, none, until TSP moves on 26/11 suspects. I mean think about it, India has tons of evidence on its side, and MMS frittered it away.

Ah! Now we are talking. No one has any fundamental disagreement with you except when you bring up he example of the USA as "This is the way to handle Pakistan". The latter sentiment is a bogey. The way to handle Pakistan is not the way the US is doing it because the US is failing. Anyone who does what the US has done so far will lose to Pakistan. Pakistanis know that.

if the US does something different to handle Pakistan more efficiently so US interests are met, wake me up and tell me. I fell asleep watching India but was woken up by 9-11 thinking that something new was going to happen. I have fallen asleep again from loss of interest. I thought India was looking silly in front of Pakistan. But the US is looking equally silly.

[KLNMurthy]

Guys, please sense the humor. You are reading too much piskology into my my friendly comment on GuptaJi's talents. I was disappointed that like DocJi, there was an attempt by GuptaJi to justify MMS's surrender to TSP, by suggesting that if mighty US finds it difficult to make TSP behave, one must appreciate India's. The scale and the context of USA's difficulties with TSP pale in comparison to India's, and he failed to point that out.

Suboptimal action on TSP by MMS is a different issue from recognizing that TSP has strong trump cards and plays its own game. In turn that is different from recognizing that many of us have difficulty accepting TSP's strengths and its adversaries' weaknesses.

[Altair]

Can we rename Pakistan as "PAKISTEIN" ??

[KLNMurthy]

AnimeshP,

Give me a f$%^ing break. US has crossed oceans to protect its interests, and faces an enermy in TSP which blows hot and cold.

TSP crosses the border and enters India and slaughters Indians and dares India to a nuke showdown.

You don't see the difference?

Again, there is plenty of room to criticize Indian response to 26/11 but it seems to me avoiding nuclear showdown is a rational choice. I don't know onlee.

US is rightly deterred by TSP threat of nuke dhamaka. It would change the global power equation radically. So it does constitute a US weakness as well. there are no evident winning moves for India or the US at least none that don't entail a radical shift of mindset.

[menon s]

An urgent core commanders meeting is in progress at Pindi, now. Pasha has come back with some pretty bruises after that Pentagon visit.

[shiv]

An urgent core commanders meeting is in progress at Pindi, now. Pasha has come back with some pretty bruises after that Pentagon visit.

Well it is a constant statement of hope on BRF that the Pakistan army is being "bruised" by America. I recall the original bruise. Armitage and his much publicised "Bomb you back to 600 AD" shortly after 9-11. Ten years later one country is learning yet again the meaning of defeat in the hands of a powerful adversary.

[gakakkad]

how about a simpler explaination... coup de etat....

[Altair]

I think after Mullen's statement, Pakistan is trying to provide solution for the calculus problem {Limit n--> infinity (AlQaeda(3) X n)}

[Tamang]

Gilani - Pakistan cannot be held responsible for the security of US, Nato or Isaf forces in Afghanistan

Retaliation possible

“There should be no ambiguity in any one’s mind that we will be unguarded again,” said a military official, referring to a possible unilateral strike like the May 2 operation when US helicopters entered deep inside the Pakistani territory undetected and killed the al Qaeda chief Osama Bin Laden.

“It will not happen any more … if two bullets are fired from the other side, we have to respond with two. This is standard procedure in such situations,” the official added when asked about the military strategy in case of a ground offensive or an aerial strike, besides drones, by the US forces.

*popcorn icon*

[Anujan]

X posting

Paki media claiming that Court of Arbitration has stopped construction of Kishenganga dam

http://goo.gl/Xf0qG

Breaking news folks:

A reliable little bird which has seen the entire judgement tells me that the ruling is massively in favor of India. India is allowed to tunnel, excavate diversion channels, and temporarily dry the riverbed for laying foundations of the dam. India can proceed along these lines *except* diverting water. In fact the judgement has a massive list of things India can do, followed by *except* these 3 things. Paki media chose to highlight those 3 things.

The truth will leak out soon, egg on the face of Paki presidential spokesman who gave this statement to Paki media.

[Lisa]

AnimeshP,

Give me a f$%^ing break. US has crossed oceans to protect its interests, and faces an enermy in TSP which blows hot and cold.

TSP crosses the border and enters India and slaughters Indians and dares India to a nuke showdown.

You don't see the difference?

Ahh ... which countries has the US "crossed oceans" to attack in order to protect its interests since WW2 ... lets see ...
1) Korea - we all know how that went (or is going)
2) Vietnam - must be some realpolitik reasons for the outcome of that one
3) Dominican republic (Operation Powerpack) - That one was won by the US hands down because of bravery/competence/capability. What a might enemy smashed across the Oceans .. phew
4) Grenada - Another toughie ... but victory ... Yaayyyy !!!
5) Lebanese civil war - Another example of famed realpolitik ...
6) Panama - That was a close one ... such a mighty enemy ... that too across the Oceans .. I tell ya these Yanks are bravery/competence/capability personified
7) Gulf War 1 - Victory again .. ya know that Saddam guy was a real tough nut to crack .. I mean his army was so good and so experienced what with just having fought a 8 year gruelling war with neighboring Iran .. good thing US had 28 buddies who went in with it otherwise this might have been another example of realpolitik
Bosnia - Yep another huge opponent smacked and beaten ...
9) Somalia - Err .. This was realpolitik
10) GWOT - It was bravery/competence/capability in Afghanistan .. but realpolitik in Pakistan
11) Libya - bravery/competence/capability

Let me know if I missed anything there ...

Yes, one!

USSR
also includes
Russia
Lithuania
Estonia
Latvia
Kazakhstan
Uzbekistan
Azerbaijan.
Georgia
Moldavia
Ukraine
Belorussia
Kyrgyzstan
Tajikistan
Armenia
Turkmenistan

East Germany
Hungary
Poland
Czechoslovakia.
Romania
Bulgaria

[Tamang]

Girl accused of blasphemy for a spelling error

Faryal Bhatti, a student at the Sir Syed Girls High School in Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) colony Havelian, erroneously misspelt a word in an Urdu exam while answering a question on a poem written in praise of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). The word in question was ‘laanat’ instead of ‘naat’ – an easy error for a child to make, as the written versions of the words are similar.

On Thursday, Faryal’s Urdu teacher was collecting the answer sheets from her students when she noticed the apparently offensive word on her pupil’s sheet. The teacher, Fareeda Bibi, reportedly summoned the Christian girl, scolded her and beat her. Her punishment, however, did not end here. When Faryal’s class fellows learnt of the alleged blasphemy, the teacher brought the principal’s notice to the matter, who further informed the school management.

In the meanwhile, the news spread throughout the colony. The next day, male students of the POF colony school as well as certain religious elements took out a rally, demanding the registration of a criminal case against the eighth-grader and her expulsion from the area.

In a move that was apparently meant to pacify the religious elements clamouring for action against the teenage ‘blasphemer’, the POF administration expelled her from the school on Saturday. Faryal was not the only one who got in trouble for her spelling error, however, as her mother, Sarafeen Bhatti, who was a staff nurse at the POF Hospital Havelian for several years, was immediately transferred to POF Wah Cantonment Hospital.

[chetak]

Girl accused of blasphemy for a spelling error

Faryal Bhatti, a student at the Sir Syed Girls High School in Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) colony Havelian, erroneously misspelt a word in an Urdu exam while answering a question on a poem written in praise of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). The word in question was ‘laanat’ instead of ‘naat’ – an easy error for a child to make, as the written versions of the words are similar.

On Thursday, Faryal’s Urdu teacher was collecting the answer sheets from her students when she noticed the apparently offensive word on her pupil’s sheet. The teacher, Fareeda Bibi, reportedly summoned the Christian girl, scolded her and beat her. Her punishment, however, did not end here. When Faryal’s class fellows learnt of the alleged blasphemy, the teacher brought the principal’s notice to the matter, who further informed the school management.

In the meanwhile, the news spread throughout the colony. The next day, male students of the POF colony school as well as certain religious elements took out a rally, demanding the registration of a criminal case against the eighth-grader and her expulsion from the area.

In a move that was apparently meant to pacify the religious elements clamouring for action against the teenage ‘blasphemer’, the POF administration expelled her from the school on Saturday. Faryal was not the only one who got in trouble for her spelling error, however, as her mother, Sarafeen Bhatti, who was a staff nurse at the POF Hospital Havelian for several years, was immediately transferred to POF Wah Cantonment Hospital.

It does not matter.

Our great sickular republic under the benevolent rule of MMS the not so great, should afford the minorities all protection under our constitution.

[abhijitm]

In contrast, India faces an existential threat from TSP,

My bullshit meter hit full. Are you vying for nishan-e-pakistan? Grow up.

When your neighbor is producing more than 100 nukes, delivery systems aiming at you and threatens you of nuclear showdown, if that is not an existential threat then what level TSP has to cross to become one? They may not succeed in exterminating us but still the threat is a threat and we must be careful in writing off our enemy, who is going through its own crisis of existence.

May be GoI understand this and hence trying to hold the enemy behind the red line through diplomatic ways.

[RajeshA]

Should US start bombing North-Waziristan using jets or if there are boots on the ground, and Pakistan is forced to return fire, then one would be only a really slippery slope going up to escalation!

Pakistan does not have that much conventional capacity to take on USA. What they have is nukes! So USA would have to think that Pakistanis would be thinking of some nuclear retaliation after some red line gets crossed, something the Pakistanis have been pointing out loudly. If they make some move, then USA is going to come down with everything it has got, to stop Pakistanis from going nuclear.

If the Pakistanis however do not return fire and do not escalate, then they will be encouraging the US to really make a mockery of them. Soon US would be hitting all over Pakistan - Quetta, Muridke, North Waziristan, Kurram, everywhere, and Pakistanis will have to take the beating, and Kiyani will be roast pig!

So it is basically all or nothing!

[Anujan]

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... epage=true

India can “continue with all works” related to the Kishenganga hydro-electric project in Jammu and Kashmir except any permanent work on the riverbed that may inhibit restoration of the river’s full flow, the International Court of Arbitration has said.

India “could proceed with the construction of the sub-surface foundations” of the dam, “erect temporary cofferdams and operate the by-pass tunnel it has said to have completed”, “temporarily dry out the riverbed of the Kishenganga-Neelum at the Gurez valley” and “excavate the riverbed.” The court said that, under the current timetable, it intended to give its final verdict “late in 2012 or early in 2013.”

A statement issued by Pakistan’s presidency late last night highlighted the court’s direction that India should not go ahead with any permanent work that could affect the river flow after the final verdict but did not mention the fact that the court had ruled that India could continue all other works.

[AnimeshP]

Ahh ... which countries has the US "crossed oceans" to attack in order to protect its interests since WW2 ... lets see ...
1) Korea - we all know how that went (or is going)
2) Vietnam - must be some realpolitik reasons for the outcome of that one
3) Dominican republic (Operation Powerpack) - That one was won by the US hands down because of bravery/competence/capability. What a might enemy smashed across the Oceans .. phew
4) Grenada - Another toughie ... but victory ... Yaayyyy !!!
5) Lebanese civil war - Another example of famed realpolitik ...
6) Panama - That was a close one ... such a mighty enemy ... that too across the Oceans .. I tell ya these Yanks are bravery/competence/capability personified
7) Gulf War 1 - Victory again .. ya know that Saddam guy was a real tough nut to crack .. I mean his army was so good and so experienced what with just having fought a 8 year gruelling war with neighboring Iran .. good thing US had 28 buddies who went in with it otherwise this might have been another example of realpolitik
Bosnia - Yep another huge opponent smacked and beaten ...
9) Somalia - Err .. This was realpolitik
10) GWOT - It was bravery/competence/capability in Afghanistan .. but realpolitik in Pakistan
11) Libya - bravery/competence/capability

Let me know if I missed anything there ...

Yes, one!

USSR
also includes
Russia
Lithuania
Estonia
Latvia
Kazakhstan
Uzbekistan
Azerbaijan.
Georgia
Moldavia
Ukraine
Belorussia
Kyrgyzstan
Tajikistan
Armenia
Turkmenistan

East Germany
Hungary
Poland
Czechoslovakia.
Romania
Bulgaria

I'm not sure of you followed the whole discussion or just jumped in to do "rah-rah USA". But even here I will ask you a question .. so how many times did USA bomb the Soviet Union or for that matter any of the other countries mentioned in your list ?

[abhijitm]

Pakistan does not have that much conventional capacity to take on USA. What they have is nukes! So USA would have to think that Pakistanis would be thinking of some nuclear retaliation after some red line gets crossed, something the Pakistanis have been pointing out loudly. If they make some move, then USA is going to come down with everything it has got, to stop Pakistanis from going nuclear.

Me thinks pakis will follow Saddam's tactics in gulf war 1 where he attacked Israel. Pak in their scenario will threaten to nuke India. I am not sure what will happen next, fork of scenarios can be think of...

[Lisa]

I'm not sure of you followed the whole discussion or just jumped in to do "rah-rah USA". But even here I will ask you a question .. so how many times did USA bomb the Soviet Union or for that matter any of the other countries mentioned in your list ?

Humbly and with the deepest of respect. All victories and not to be
achieved through a bomb or the barrel of a gun. One must think out of the
box and think about adopting another's successful ideas.

All of Rome's power was not by physical occupation but also through fear
of retribution in the absence of compliance. All of America's power is not
by physical occupation but also through fear of retribution in the absence
of compliance.

[Dilbu]

Pak in their scenario will threaten to nuke India.

That will be like signing their own death warrant. Then their choice will be between going up in a mushroom cloud or giving up the clown jewels.

[parsuram]

Re: The United States crossing oceans to fight enemies etcetera etcetra...

Not since the Spanish American war over a century ago has the United States, fighting alone, across any ocean, defeated any enemy, of an equal or higher power than itself. As for fighting with the help of allies, the record is: WW 1, WW 2, (2 wins) Korea (1 Tie) Vietnam (1 Loss). Not a scintillating performance, by any means.

[AnimeshP]

I'm not sure of you followed the whole discussion or just jumped in to do "rah-rah USA". But even here I will ask you a question .. so how many times did USA bomb the Soviet Union or for that matter any of the other countries mentioned in your list ?

Humbly and with the deepest of respect. All victories and not to be
achieved through a bomb or the barrel of a gun. One must think out of the
box and think about adopting another's successful ideas.

All of Rome's power was not by physical occupation but also through fear
of retribution in the absence of compliance. All of America's power is not
by physical occupation but also through fear of retribution in the absence
of compliance.

Thank you Lisa for the highlighted part
Two point regarding your post :
1) Some of our esteemed posters feel that if India follows a policy of trying to win this war without firing a bullet it is because of cowardliness/incompetence/incapability not realpolitik.
2) So what fear is America putting into Pakistan for actions carried out by it which are detrimental to American interests and lives?

[abhijitm]

Pak in their scenario will threaten to nuke India.

That will be like signing their own death warrant. Then their choice will be between going up in a mushroom cloud or giving up the clown jewels.

I wish so but I am not so sure. Israel too has retaliation policy but then they did nothing because of intense unkil pressure!

[RajeshA]

abhijitm ji,

From the US side the escalation should be gradual if Kiyani is willing to take the beating in North Waziristan or it should be sudden if Kiyani seriously threatens to use nukes on India or elsewhere.

But if USA increases pressure slowly but steadily in FATA, Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and Northern Baluchistan, USA can manage to establish a situation where there is loud protests from Pakistani Army and Government, but they don't go beyond protesting and cutting the supply routes through Pakistan.

Then of course the Jihadis would be mighty pissed off with TSPA, and the whiskey swirling commanders would have to make a choice, either they let the Jihadis eat them and their families or they parachute into the USA turning over the nukes to the Americans.

The TSPA have some practice in taking American beating quietly like through the drone program. The trick is to force Pakistani Army to slowly give up their red line of no American boots on the ground in Pakistan.

[Anujan]

Next logical course of action is for US to go pepper Paki border guards who try to push in Haqqani yahoos with some nice Helicopter gunfire. This will be the next shot across the bow.

[Dilbu]

I wish so but I am not so sure. Israel too has retaliation policy but then they did nothing because of intense unkil pressure!

I don't remember anyone threatening to nuke Israel, apart from the rhetoric of nations without proven capability to do so. OTOH threat from TSP is clear and present and will be dealt with due seriousness.

[abhijitm]

RajeshA ji, if it is a slow escalation then that does not benefit India. We know how pakis are shrewd in extortion. They make a hype about coup, public protests against US etc. They will make unkil pay in $$ for this. They might even convince haqqani to take a share of money and leave RAPE alone. This will be another big opportunity for pakis and talibs to make money.

but if unkil hit hard inside pakiland then there is a chance of sudden escalation.

[Lisa]

Thank you Lisa for the highlighted part
Two point regarding your post :
1) Some of our esteemed posters feel that if India follows a policy of trying to win this war without firing a bullet it is because of cowardliness/incompetence/incapability not realpolitik.
2) So what fear is America putting into Pakistan for actions carried out by it which are detrimental to American interests and lives?

1) I agree with them. In the absence of a gun I see no alternative political,
diplomatic or economic sanction against Pukes. They do what they want
at no cost and India rather than doing what is necessary in the defence of
its people looks around for foreign nations, in particular the US to
influence/pressure pukes into better behaviour! If the US is going to be
used in the defence of Indian lives they why pay taxes for an Indian Army!

Other than chai biscoot I have so far seen no real policy of ANY value. Let
alone a cultural boycott of Pukistan, Indian media houses covet interviews
with Muffharaf and used to invite him to conferences. An individual who has
the blood of thousands of Indians on his hands being paid for his
attendance!

2) If no fear of the US then why any of this discussion. May as well start
discussing Gambia's foreign policy vis-à-vis Pukistan.

[member_19648]

abhijitm ji,
From the US side the escalation should be gradual if Kiyani is willing to take the beating in North Waziristan or it should be sudden if Kiyani seriously threatens to use nukes on India or elsewhere.

nOOb Question: Why would US be so concerned about India getting nuked by the morons from across the border??? Afterall, they have only supplied the pigs with AIM-120 and F-16s so that Pakis can take on India, and for the matter of fact, the F-16s can be used to deliver nukes too! So at one side, they are weakening India's offensive and at the other, they will be helping India if Pakis threaten to nuke? Aren't these 2 facts contradictory? Open to debates but!!!

[AnimeshP]

Thank you Lisa for the highlighted part
Two point regarding your post :
1) Some of our esteemed posters feel that if India follows a policy of trying to win this war without firing a bullet it is because of cowardliness/incompetence/incapability not realpolitik.
2) So what fear is America putting into Pakistan for actions carried out by it which are detrimental to American interests and lives?

1) I agree with them. In the absence of a gun I see no alternative political,
diplomatic or economic sanction against Pukes. They do what they want
at no cost and India rather than doing what is necessary in the defence of
its people looks around for foreign nations, in particular the US to
influence/pressure pukes into better behaviour! If the US is going to be
used in the defence of Indian lives they why pay taxes for an Indian Army!

Other than chai biscoot I have so far seen no real policy of ANY value. Let
alone a cultural boycott of Pukistan, Indian media houses covet interviews
with Muffharaf and used to invite him to conferences. An individual who has
the blood of thousands of Indians on his hands being paid for his
attendance!

2) If no fear of the US then why any of this discussion. May as well start
discussing Gambia's foreign policy vis-à-vis Pukistan.

Whatever you said about India goes for the sooper power as well and then some ...
Lets see US actions thus far ...
Chai-biscoot with Pakistan - check
Media houses coveting interviews of Pakis - check
Giving billions of dollars in aid (something India hasn't done) - check
Giving millitary awards to Pakistani generals (something India hasn't done) - check

So pray do tell me what fear is US instilling in Pakistani Army to take actions suitable to US interests and save American lives (how long has US been "urging" Pakis to go against the Haqqani faction and how long have the Pakis been cocking a snook at them?)
The difference between Gambia's foreign policy & US foreign policy vis-a-vis Pakistan is that Gambia is not pouring in billions of dollars into TSP coffers while getting its soldiers blown up on a daily basis

[Suppiah]

Fascinating, how fast this thread moves in just a few days...have been away a bit..

Re. this Unkil waking up to his cuckold reality thingy...the essential question being is it time to buy a ton of popcorn to see some interesting fireworks to our west?

IMHO no. As MKB pointed out, TSPA has perfected the art of taqiya and stringing Unkil along. They buy know the presidential political life-cycle better than they know their wives menstrual cycle. A president effectively has about a year or less to do real work, if you minus the honey moon and the next campaign/lame duck period. Now Ombaba is a drowning man clutching whatever straw he can find, he is just making noise, so bring out Option #54 -> pay him off. How? sacrifice one of those jehadi leaders who are within arms reach and have outlived their utility or grown too much for their boots. Time it well, Unkil calls it triumph (and a vindication of their get tough approach), writes another $1B cheque and has photo-op with HRK.

That is of course, assuming that the whole drama is real and not enacted to restore H&D of Assphuck & Co., as is being speculated.

And all we have left with are the wet tissues..and a lot of excitement in place of the real thing.

What we should be happy about is that we are better off than Unkil in two ways, one is we never crossed border and paid as Shiv-ji pointed out and secondly did not pay ISI / TSPA army to hit us. (I am being kind to dynastic butt hole licking scum and anti-Indian yellow media here, by not classifying their spinning vague conspiracy theories that absolve ISI even in proven cases of Pakbaric terrorism, as payment in kind.)

[RajeshA]

Ivanev ji,

If USA is going to go for the clown jewels or escalate with Pakistan in some way or another, which country do you consider would then be left in the region to bring some order into the chaos? India of course.

USA needs India to bring the region under control. USA has seen how costly it can get - both in terms of treasure and blood, if one tries to do nation building - Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya ... So USA would need India to bear some of the burden. After all the chaos and Islamism there would affect us too.

USA can leave the whole region broken, but today USA cannot ensure its own security just by withdrawing back home. There is too much interaction in goods and information with the rest of the world.

Then there is the question of balancing China.

[Pratyush]

India at risk of being caught in US-Pak crossfire

Quoting from the article

Just as in November 2008, when Pakistan masterminded the Mumbai attacks to escalate tension in the eastern front so as to back off from counter-terrorism operations along the Af-Pak border, from a Pakistani perspective, India is a sitting duck for a terrorist strike.

Its calculation will be that the Indian government will perforce have to respond to the provocation, which will escalate tension along their border. And just as in November 2008, the US will likely urge India to exercise restraint – because the build-up of troops on Pakistan’s eastern front is taking away attention from where it wants it: along the Durand Line.

The second threat to India comes from a long-term strategic perspective. Even today, there are US officials who, for all their distrust of Pakistan, buy the argument that the roots of terrorism in the subcontinent can be traced to the unresolved Kashmir issue. Despite compelling evidence that the even the Kashmir-focussed Pakistani terrorists groups have a larger agenda – the disintegration of a secular India and a global jihad that targets even America – the line has found traction among a section of US policymakers.

The risk then is that if US officials pullback from the brinkmanship games with Pakistan, and begin once again to count on its cooperation, they could perhaps turn up the pressure on India to resolve the Kashmir dispute.

[Altair]

Humbly and with the deepest of respect. All victories and not to be
achieved through a bomb or the barrel of a gun. One must think out of the
box and think about adopting another's successful ideas.

All of Rome's power was not by physical occupation but also through fear
of retribution in the absence of compliance. All of America's power is not
by physical occupation but also through fear of retribution in the absence
of compliance.

I have an out of box option for the American President. Send some B-2's and other USAF jets patrol Islamabad skies and mock bomb ISI head quarters. The choice is either ISI headquarters or deliverance of Haqqani's on a platter. Plain and Simple.

[harbans]

When your neighbor is producing more than 100 nukes, delivery systems aiming at you and threatens you of nuclear showdown, if that is not an existential threat then what level TSP has to cross to become one?

Absolutely correct! Add to that the concepts of Ghazwa Hind, self proclaimed 1000 years ruling India legacy, rightful inheritors of Hindustan, plus Pakistan itself is an example how India's existence within those geographical boundaries has been completely wiped out. Check if Pakistan even doubles it's nuke capability every 5 years what sort of damage it could threaten India with within a generation. Add to it India's, Pakistan's, Bangladesh's burgeoning Islamic population within this forumers grandkids' generations, the Indian subcontinent will be an Islamic majority one. lebanons slide within 3 decades from a Xian majority to vanquishment will begin in full earnest. If Pak survives till then it will certainly spear head the Islamization of India. To say we don't face an existential threat from Pakistan..lesser said.

[Suppiah]

Guys, while we are dreaming of getting Unkil to do our dirty work at no cost, have you considered the possibility of Unkil engineering something that is quite the opposite?

All this while it has been a familiar story - TSPA/ISI kills Indians through terrorism, Frantic calls from Unkil to take it easy because they DONT WANT attention diverted to eastern flanks..

Now, THEY DO WANT THAT, don't they? After all, a TSPA fighting IA in eastern front can't spend that much time pushing jehadis into Afghanistan and killing GI Joes and Janes.

Just $.02..

[Lisa]

Whatever you said about India goes for the sooper power as well and then some ...
Lets see US actions thus far ...
Chai-biscoot with Pakistan - check
Media houses coveting interviews of Pakis - check
Giving billions of dollars in aid (something India hasn't done) - check
Giving millitary awards to Pakistani generals (something India hasn't done) - check

So pray do tell me what fear is US instilling in Pakistani Army to take actions suitable to US interests and save American lives (how long has US been "urging" Pakis to go against the Haqqani faction and how long have the Pakis been cocking a snook at them?)
The difference between Gambia's foreign policy & US foreign policy vis-a-vis Pakistan is that Gambia is not pouring in billions of dollars into TSP coffers while getting its soldiers blown up on a daily basis

P.S. US vs Gambia do you 'fear' the US billions?

How does the similarity with US policy failure help us. How does it help
those who died in Mumbai. I frankly could not care less if the Americans
bedded the Pukes. I am only interested in Indians and Indian security and
currently there is a policy failure and a refusal to recognise that failure.

Yes the Americans give aid to pukistan and in their minds, in the
formulation of a policy that is going to buy them a dividend. You seem to
be implying that if the Americans have failed its OK for India to fail.

What is current Indian policy? I personally am hard pushed to describe it
as any more than chai biscoot with murderers.

You need to make pukistan pay. You need to formulate a policy where it
costs pukistan more then it is worth their while to give us misery.
Concentrate on that.

P.S. US vs Gambia do you 'fear' the US billions?

[member_19648]

Ivanev ji,

If USA is going to go for the clown jewels or escalate with Pakistan in some way or another, which country do you consider would then be left in the region to bring some order into the chaos? India of course.

USA needs India to bring the region under control. USA has seen how costly it can get - both in terms of treasure and blood, if one tries to do nation building - Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya ... So USA would need India to bear some of the burden. After all the chaos and Islamism there would affect us too.

USA can leave the whole region broken, but today USA cannot ensure its own security just by withdrawing back home. There is too much interaction in goods and information with the rest of the world.

Then there is the question of balancing China.

Thanks, clears a bit of my doubt! But, why was the US arming pakis to the teeth, before their perfidy came to be known? and with weapons that were clearly India specific, and maybe game changers! They were baksheeshs all right, but against India, whose side they want to take desperately now! And if Paki perfidy hadn't come out, they might well have had Pakis as a level player in the region, bringing order to chaos??? I have nothing against the US, but the US clearly chose to take the side of Pakis when it definitely knew about its perfidy and real intentions! They knew everything! But now when it's interests are hurt, it can so easily change sides?!? So is it prudent to trust them?!? IMO, India can never trust the US after what it has done and history is witness to it. Today, it is burning in it's own fire, and I wouldn't expect much from them as I would expect a lot from us, as India always has spoken the truth and for the truth!

Added later: I would be very happy if the US for once, does the right thing, practices what it preaches, that about doing the right thing, justice and values, and comes back heavily on the Pakis, but I don't want India to suffer because of it. She is too precious to be a victim of this dangerous game between warmongers! Let the people who started it finish it and we would wait this one out!