Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 2011

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KLNMurthy
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by KLNMurthy »

CRamS wrote:RudraJi,

I agree with your analysis, except to say that it is quite disingeneous for folks like DocJi and A_GuptaJi to claim that somehow US delaing with TSP is as weak as India's pussilanimous approach expemplified by the points you listed. A_GuptaJi even went on to claim (I am paraphrasing) post Mullen statement that at least MMS did not change tune within 24 hours as US did in approving aid to TSP immediatly after Mullen speak. I think the comparison with US approach is a side show. Its a waste of time. The fact remains, and I repeat, TSP remains a mortal threat to India.
The fallacy here is in treating indo-pak relations as comparable with us-pak relations. Indopak relations can and should be evaluated on their own merit without bringing in us-pak relations as a yardstick.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Amber G. »

ramana wrote: The WH was US hosting terrorists who were working to over throw the FSU from Afghanistan. JS was trying to get Indian hostages released from a plane hijacked to Kabul and surrounded with armed Taliban.
This is one way to put it. Others may say that WH hosting (in 1980's when WH, though they should have known better, and people like us told them so, but they did not consider them terrorists) was akin to ABV hosting terrorist chief Mush in Agra. JS was an effort to negotiating with terrorists who have butchered one passenger with box-cutter which went a little too far when he had allowed himself photographed holding hands with the terrorists etc.

My regret is while WH finally gave okay to bomb Talibans and get OBL in Pak, Indians did not go after those scums..

Thanks for explaining how they are similar
I don't think I "explained" or even hinted that they are similar, that conclusion you are acquiring it on your own.

JS (or present Indian leaders) did what he thought was in the best interest of India. One may criticize and learn from mistakes one makes. But I do not question his patriotism. I do hope BRF leaders provide the same courtesy to present Indian leaders and BRF posters who may have a different view than a narrow narrative of a few.
I stand by my moral compass statement and looks like it will be vindicated by test of time. Atleast on BRF it has led to some introspection.
I think you still are not getting my point. I don't think BRF should be in the business of *judging* others "moral compass" and pass fatawa on those who do not meet their criteria. As Somnath said, we have neighbors who do that. Mav, who was a brfadmin, has some discussion going on his blog discussion us. We may or may not agree with everything what is being said, but IMO, there are some very valid points.

Thanks.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by gakakkad »

@ Amber G... I don't want to stretch this any further , but I think you are getting confused with the regrettable exchanges in the nuclear dhaga with what some of the things said in the TSP forum..

I regret the insult to the scientists and the highly respected particle physicist who used to post here once...And I expressed that before even..

But some of the people the user Somnath (who is probably an economist associated in the past with the govt) was trying to defend are clearly anti national.. (especially the timings , immediately after a terror strike when every decent Indian would be angry). Its was similar to justifying taliban immediately after 9/11..
One of the persons somnath tried to justify wrote a highly libellous article against the Gujaratis (especially the expatriates ). As a Gujarati I felt like doing a whole lot of things to him... Some of the other people attended Fai's meetings...Fai as you know was a member of the ISI...

As far as MMS is concerned , some of the grievances that people have against him are very genuine...Business has been tough in the past two years... and a man of his economic expertise could have prevented them..

As far as the ABV's reception of Musharraf is concerned , yes that could have been avoided.... especially following a protocol of a state president..And allowing him to conduct the infamous press conference... But as it will be proved when documents from the era are declassified , ABV perhaps had no option but to talk.. We are talking of the year 2001 here...India did not have the present level of economic or military strengths then..It had no decent supporter in the UNSC..(Russia was in a terrible shape in those days)... It was immediately pre-9/11 ..And it is now known that RAW and Jordanian Mukhbarat received some intercepts of an impending terror strike.. South block or raw new that something was fishy...but it did not know precisely what we were dealing with... ...whatever one might accuse ABV of , anti-nationalism was not one..

As far as quandahar hijacking is concerned , yes there was a mistake...there were things in India that are quite lousy..In those days they were quite worse..A plane known to have been hijacked should not have been allowed to take of.. Someone in delhi messed up big time ..though it was not jaswant...the plane was taken to kandahar which was a very hostile territory..By the time Jaswant's turn came things were already out of hand...a mess had been made...every democracy has been pusillanimous in hostage situations..SOMETIMES EVEN FOR BUSINESS..like the lockerbie bomber was released by the UK...

As far as INC is concerned , BJP == INC is an old trick to keep middle class away from the electorate... INC has falsely accused imaginary hindu groups for terrorism (including samjhauta express) ..Some people in the party have gone to the extent of calling 26/11 an RSS conspiracy....hence i would not utter most congi's and some top bjp leaders in the same breath.(i ll not do congress == bjp). While BJP may have been incompetent , elements within the congress party have beyond reasonable doubt proven to be anti-national..

You might want to google "26/11 rss conspiracy digvijay singh " ...you ll se an image...that image will explain why people have been less than civilised in naming congress leaders..
Last edited by gakakkad on 17 Oct 2011 23:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by RamaY »

from moralistic point soldier = terrorist

TSP thread taking its intellectual toll :P
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Amber G. »

putnanja wrote:
Amber G. wrote:But discussion of JS taking mithai and hugging the scums who slaughtered one of the passengers by a box cutter,

Can you please provide links to substantiate your claims that JS took sweets and hugged the terrorists?
Interesting that not many here in BRF ask to provide links to substantiate even the most bizarre conspiracy theories, and demonstrably false statements made about, say MMS (Remember, no one (or not many) asked any question about branding Indian leader SG or M. Obama a sex worker)...

Interesting that not many here in BRF ask to provide links to substantiate when some one comments I " might not be traitor but if " I had my way I would "would make sure that India was a poodle to US". ..

.... But still, since you ask I would request S Sridhar , as an expert, to comment more on this. We may all learn something...

Meanwhile, let me just quote from another expert...
Jaswant Singh saw the opportunity that this represented to open doors to the Taliban regime. The family of the Taliban governor of Kandahar actually stayed in the Amritsar area. It made sense to use this opportunity to talk to them and Secy. Katju was able to arrange the meet and greet. Hence the holding hands and mithai.

Link:here

Here is the piece by
Kandahar Hijacking Highlights India's 'Diplomatic Failure', Says Former IB Chief Doval

JS in his own book "Troubled Neighbour, Turbulent Times: 1999'." writes:
I do not really know what to term my mission -- a rescue mission; an appeasement exercise; a flight to compromise or a flight to the future,
He again writes in his own book: That even the Cabinet was against it:
The day the demands of the hijackers -- $200 million as ransom money, release of some 36 proven terrorists and the interred remains of a terrorist -- came to me, I shared them with the Cabinet and sought advice. The Cabinet was unanimous -- 'Reject the demands and tell the press in appropriate words'. It was a tense day, the press waited outside and I had to brief them. I repeated the demands and simply added, "I now urge all in my country and abroad to reflect on these demands." There was really nothing else or more to say,'......
Adwani himself was against it, and said that he did not know about it..
March 24:: BJP leader L K Advani has said that he was against the decision to free terrorists in return for the passengers of the hijacked flight IC-814 in 1999. But what’s more startling is that Advani says he had nothing to do with the decision to send Jaswant Singh with the terrorists to Kandahar. In fact, Advani, who was then the Home Minister, claims he didn’t even know that Jaswant Singh was going until after the decision was taken.
Link:here

I, of course, was not there so will be more than willing to correct my statements.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by parsuram »

Amber G: You caught some flack, imo, some deserved flack but perhaps that needs pointed out to you. First, this is not the forum where one would trot out politically in correct or otherwise inapropreate actions of the Indian govt and/or its reps. To say that what the regan WH did was wrong - which you have now stated - is neither here nor there. The key acts of US administrations- from regan to bush to clinton to bush were their opportunistic decisions in Afghanistan, specifically flipping good/bad for the taliban, and bad/good for the NA. There has not been a floor under US actions and policies in Afghanistan for the 30 odd years since the soviets went in. And really, the soviets actually did more good for the social development of Afghanistan (education, health, woman's issues etc) in the short time that they actually were in control of that country, than the sum of everything that the US and its "allies" - the paki, taliban, haqqini, etc - have done there. Even now, occasionally, the US/NATO agencies active there will admit to this fact. The US has consistantly allied itself with retrogressive, conservative forces there, and seem amazed that they are opposed by the same forces they foster, when they attempt to do what the russians did. So, in sum, what you got dissed about was your apparent support for the regan WH actions (giving it benefit of the doubt, re: id of the scum they hosted) and bringing up the IA hijacking in the same post (appearing to make a comparison, which was not apropreate on this forum). Hope this helps.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Prem »

The Pakistan Illusion
http://www.aei.org/article/104286
(Laang Article, basically no more blindness. Amreeka with Eyes open,Pakistan with Mush, Hand and Legs . Indians with Zipper open)
Mullen flattered Kayani in dozens of high-profile visits. In 2009, he convinced Newsweek that the general-to-general chemistry was “the most important relationship in the fraught dynamic between the two countries.” Mullen trumpeted the good news that Kayani “was making promises and keeping them.”In hindsight, it would seem that Kayani had no intention of promising or delivering anything that mattered to the Pakistani Army and its officer corps. Pakistan’s generals have been masters at playing their American counterparts..”Mullen never quite sank to such romance-novel heavy breathing with Kayani, and by the end of his term as chairman he saw the truth clearly. Osama bin Laden had been living in Abbottabad, Pakistan’s West Point. Mullen publicly has charged Pakistan’s military intelligence agency​—​once commanded by Kayani​—​with supporting attacks by the insurgent Haqqani network, including the September 13 bombing of the U.S. embassy in Kabul. In a valedictory interview with columnist David Ignatius, Mullen admitted it took him a long time to appreciate the “trust deficit” with the Pakistani Army. He also worried that they are on a “declining glide slope.”

The tragedy of American policy is its failure to see that Pakistan has been on a very long downward slope​—​arguably since 1947, when independent Pakistan and India separated from the British Raj. Indeed, Husain Haqqani, currently Pakistan’s ambassador to the United States, has described his country as “in some ways a state project gone wrong.”

Pakistan has had a confused and troubled identity. The original idea of Pakistan, as Stephen Cohen of the Brookings Institution has written, was of an “extraordinary” state, “a homeland for Indian Muslims and an ideological and political leader of the Islamic world.” At the same time, the ideology of the Pakistan founding was opaque and contradictory, with the contradictions seemingly captured in the figure of its leader, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, Karachi-born but trained as a lawyer in England and retaining a lifelong affinity for fine English tailoring. Though a partner of Gandhi and Nehru in the India Congress, Jinnah was suspicious of their all-India approach, and as British imperial power on the subcontinent began to wane in the early 20th century, the compact between India’s Hindus and Muslims weakened.
Pakistan’s problems are deep; indeed, they are embedded in the country’s very identity. But our strategic interests are equally deep. The war in Afghanistan and the rise of India are indicators that the balance of power in South Asia​—​like the balance of power in Europe, the Persian Gulf, or Pacific Asia​—​is emerging as a core security concern of the United States and an increasingly important test of the international system. :?: :?:

A coherent American strategy rests on convincing Islamabad of three things: that the United States has come to South Asia to stay; that India’s rise should be met with strategic cooperation, not competition; and that playing a “China card” won’t work.

Long experience has convinced Pakistani leaders that the United States will lose interest in them and in South Asia, and that they will be left with what they see as an existential crisis​—​these were the lessons of 1965, 1971, the Cold War, and after. The Obama administration’s plans to draw down and “transfer the lead” in Afghanistan to Kabul fits Pakistani preconceptions perfectly; and they’re making plans accordingly. But the greatest strategic reward of Operation Enduring Freedom, well beyond killing Osama bin Laden, disrupting al Qaeda, or suppressing the Afghan Taliban, would be to begin to curb Pakistan’s longing for “strategic depth” in Central Asia. :mrgreen: That requires retaining a substantial military presence and developing a strategic partnership with the Afghans.

Relieving Pakistan’s paranoia about India will take even longer. But the cost of this paranoia has been devastating to Pakistan, militarizing the state, politicizing the faith of its people, debilitating civilian political and economic development. This is the “declining glide slope” that Admiral Mullen lamented. Pakistan does not need to achieve eternal enlightenment, just a rational policy that would put things like economic cooperation above recovering Kashmir. The United States needs to follow two principles to improve the prospects for success: continue to develop its strategic partnership with India​—​to slowly convince Islamabad that its traditional strategies can no longer work​—​and demand that military-to-military ties take a back seat to civilian diplomacy. We must cure ourselves of the “Tommy Franks syndrome.”

Convincing Pakistan that the Chinese won’t be the sugar daddy who makes up for their mistakes won’t be easy. :?: In response to Mullen’s accusations, the Pakistanis reaffirmed their love for China as, in the words of Prime Minister Yousuf Gilani, “higher than mountains, deeper than oceans, stronger than steel, sweeter than honey.” The Chinese, however, prefer more tangible expressions of regard, such as material resources, the deep-sea port at Gwadar, and an expansion of the Karakoram highway into western China. China’s presence in the Indian Ocean is growing, but part of U.S. strategy for Asia is to preserve a favorable maritime balance there. India shares that interest; one of its prime strategic directives is to stymie a China-Pakistan axis.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Amber G. »

gakakkad wrote:@ Amber G... I don't want to stretch this any further , but I think you are getting confused with the regrettable exchanges in the nuclear dhaga with what some of the things said in the TSP forum..
.
Gakakkadji - I am no fan/defender of INC or Digvijay (personally I think his acts are disgraceful) and I do not even personally know Somnath or have read too many of his posts except in nuke dhaga where I am/was impressed by his knowledge)

My singular point here, and I think I have been very clear, so please do not put words in my mouth, or characterize in other way), one (specially old members and brf-admins) should *not* demonize others. One can debate and criticize on merits but drawing a "beheading list", terming those who do not agree with you as unpatriotic or worse, insisting that there is room here for only one particular party is not helpful.

There are some very interesting events going on wrt to TSP, instead of discussion that there is a major eruption here with personal attacks and what not because someone dared to share a link of a newspaper article.

Anyway, hopefully last from me here in this dhaga..
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by nachiket »

^^Amber G., in case you missed, it, the person who came up with the "beheading list" was asked to cease and desist by a moderator.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Rahul M »

Amber G. wrote:...........
my reply at http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1180600
Prem
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Prem »

Pakistan wants Afghan action on Taliban cleric
Poaksurs Want Massa for Bhamasur Vadh

ISLAMABAD
(Reuters) – Pakistan said Monday that Afghan and U.S-led forces had failed to hunt down a Taliban cleric responsible for a spate of cross-border raids despite repeated requests from Islamabad, a complaint likely to deepen tension between the neighbors.The attacks in which militants loyal to Maulvi Fazlullah took part killed about 100 members of Pakistan's security forces, angering the army which faces threats from multiple militant groups.
"We have given locations and information about these groups to the Afghanistan government and ISAF (International Security Assistance Force), but apparently there has been no action," Pakistani army spokesman, Major-General Athar Abbas, told Reuters."The problem refuses to go away."Fazlullah was the Pakistani Taliban leader in Swat Valley, about 100 miles northwest of Islamabad, before a 2009 army offensive forced him to flee.Also known as FM Mullah for his fiery radio broadcasts, he regrouped in Afghanistan and established strongholds, and poses a threat to Pakistan once again, said Abbas.Fazlullah, a leading figure in the Pakistani Taliban insurgency, is based in Kunar and Nuristan provinces in Afghanistan, said Abbas.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by anishns »

Amber G.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Amber G. »

nachiket wrote:^^Amber G., in case you missed, it, the person who came up with the "beheading list" was asked to cease and desist by a moderator.
Thanks but no, I did not miss it, if you read the post I did thank the mods for that.. BTW, the list *and* "Beheading" part was still there at the time of my posting.


Point is, that's tip of the iceberg. I did not make that kind of charge lightly. There are many inappropriate posts gets posted here in BRF, in spite of them being reported. I have reported or posted the feedback, some times, only to be rebuked and mocked by our admins.

No one is suggesting to hold moderators accountable for all the posts. It is nature of internet forum where posts will wander sometimes. What I am suggesting is to Brf-admins (and old members) to NOT DEMONIZE any body simply because it does not fit in a narrow narrative. Criticize or debate if you must, show the passion that's okay too.. but keep the discussion civil. This, in my opinion, is *not* being done as it was in the past.

Hope that helps.
Last edited by Amber G. on 18 Oct 2011 02:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Rudradev »

From the AEI article posted by Prem:

Pakistan’s generals have been masters at playing their American counterparts.
A passage from the autobiography of General Tommy Franks, head of U.S. Central Command during the initial invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, gives a hint as to who gets the better of these “relationships.” Recalling his first meeting with one of Kayani’s predecessors, Franks wrote: “It struck me that it was appropriate that we both wore uniforms. For years, American officials and diplomatic envoys in business suits had hectored soldier-politicians such as Pervez Musharraf about human rights and representative government.”
The long, loving relationship between the US Armed Forces and the TSPA harks back to the Martial Races Theory in all its glory. Gen. Franks clearly betrays his contempt for civilians engaging in diplomacy when a man-to-man discussion between soldiers in uniform was so much more "appropriate" in the vital interests of US national security.

TSP, of course, always had rulers in uniform to bring forward in "man-to-man" discussions with their counterparts in the US military, providing reassurance to Martial Racists like Franks that here was a fine fellow soldier who could get the job done. Not like the whingeing civilians of Washington who undermined the US military with political and budgetary concerns... how could the US military make Af-Pak safe for democracy, when US civilian diplomats were always lecturing proud Pakistani generals about the virtues of democracy?

Given this mindset, the Pentagon's contempt for paunchy egg-headed Indian babus who ride roughshod over the uniformed SDRE Indian Army, and embarrass visiting American top brass with peremptory references to Vietnam or Iraq, hardly requires further explanation.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by parsuram »

Rudra: From what I know, Indian General staff officers know just as well on how to handle those of pentagon issue, and when in doubt, they are not above taking help from "paunchy egg-headed Indian babus". In General :mrgreen: pentagon issue get irritated as all get out :at least: once on trip to Dilli, or Indian counterpart are not satisfied. Strangely, lower rung pentagon officers get along much better, are much more productive. Must be some retro evolution thing going on.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Rudradev »

Parsuram: agreed onlee. As against a dozen Paki jernails with an army of white-gloved waiters serving kababs and whiskey on the manicured lawn... give me ONE paan-chewing babu who makes Richard Holbrooke or Tommy Franks wait for several hours in the hot sun. :mrgreen:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Does seem like someone doth protest too much. The sensible thing to do would be to climbdown, accept a momentary lapse of judgment and carry on like nothing happened only. But H&D issues arise, obviously (been there done that...). I hope the forum as a whole ain't 'demonized' too much but that may just be too much to ask for from one out to retrospectively redeem one's actions.

Anyway, choti muh badi baat. What goes of my pocket? This ain't my fight. Continue fighting merrily, o gentle rakshaks...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by parsuram »

Prem:

re: "The Pakistan Illusion" Do you suppose we will be given an expose on unkil's new forrun policy towards the paki thru such articles, just to make sure it gets hammered in to its thick skull? and, moreover, all and sundry, such as the "sugar daddy" PRCees, are also aware of it. A new level of transparency, perhaps, and oh, so refreshing.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Prem »

Parsuram ji ,
Just enjoy the "trained-ass-piracy" game:mrgreen: .
Centre of South Asia is India and there is no Asia without India . Let them figure this out. Yeh sarre apne hi Jaal me phans gaye. On top of this they cant stand the PoakSmell coming from their shirt pocket. Poakgecko used to kept there to the chargin of Indians. Right now Poakalcohlics are just going through the moment of coming out of Nasha.Balance of power Hangover might last few more days,weeks ,months or years.
The article displays the underlying mentality of being single master player Zeus with chess board , moving,shifting the pieces.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Prem »

US troops start operation along border with NWA
http://pn.com.pk/details_en.php?nid=20385
ISLAMABAD: US troops are carrying out a search operation in Afghan areas bordering North Waziristan. Hundreds of US soldiers have been deployed on the Afghan side along the N Waziristan border. Equipped with sophisticated arms and weaponry, including helicopters, they completely sealed off the border and are carrying out a search operation.Apart from this, curfew has been imposed in Garbaz area of Khost province and home-to-home search operation is being conducted. The main road of Khost has also been sealed off for every kind of traffic.The NATO fighter jets are having low flights in the border areas, terrorizing villagers on both sides of the border. On the other hand, certain officials say that the issue is being blown out of proportion
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by shiv »

Rudradev wrote:Parsuram: agreed onlee. As against a dozen Paki jernails with an army of white-gloved waiters serving kababs and whiskey on the manicured lawn... give me ONE paan-chewing babu who makes Richard Holbrooke or Tommy Franks wait for several hours in the hot sun. :mrgreen:
You know Rudradev - there is interesting piskology here. Being "hospitable" is a value addition that can bring greater rewards than the cost of being hospitable. Pakistanis use that extremely well - and which is also why SDRE visitors to Pakistan are totally bowled over and "in Paki pocket".

I think that if you and I met as fellow SDREs and your "hospitality" to me went beyond a particular limit I would sense that you wanted something from me, and if I felt unable to offer you anything I would react to you by effusive friendship and even obsequiousness and say that I am forever grateful to you and that you have more than honored a humble person such as myself. By doing that I would send you signals that I am repaying your hospitality with sufficient gratitude and humility making it equal equal between you and me so you are less able to ask me any favors later.

But when the Paki does that to an American the latter does not understand the cultural signals and how to bypass them with similar equal equal superficialities. For the American, being waited on hand and foot is something he cannot repay and he is too embarrassed to object to the attention for "fear" of antagonizing a good host. After a few such interactions the American ends up feeling that he is getting more than he deserves from this Paki for whom he is doing nothing. When the Paki provides him with a bill for use of road or airport, the American cannot refuse.

Of course, if you look at the little detail, it matters that America is a relatively egalitarian meritocracy and Pakistan is a feudal land. The American cannot get people to wait on anyone hand and foot without paying humongous amounts of money, and even then he may not be able to get that kind of attention along with freedom to do shikar and return for a massage and hot bath. For the average feudal lord in Pakistan it is easy. It is just convenient that the jernails and politicians are also feudal lords. Pakis, to their credit have taken this to a completely different level where they have employed Pakistanis to go and get killed for the Americans - making the American doubly obliged to Pakistanis.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by shiv »

Prem wrote:US troops start operation along border with NWA
http://pn.com.pk/details_en.php?nid=20385
The NATO fighter jets are having low flights in the border areas, terrorizing villagers on both sides of the border.

When the same things happen on "both sides of a border" you can be sure there is a Paki around somewhere. Poverty is on both sides of the border. Terrorism is on both sides of the border. Polio is on both sides of the border etc
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Airavat »

Capitalism will be replaced by Islam
‘Ummeed Bano’ rally of Islami Jamiat-Talba taken out from Punjab University New Campus to Icchra. While addressing the rally Ummeed Bano” (Become Hope) Million March of the IJT, Jamaat-e-Islami Ameer Syed Munawar Hasana said that capitalism was dying at the hands of its own protagonists and Islam was fast emerging as super power in the world. He also said that millions of people in the west were on roads to demand switch over to the Islamic financial system after the failure of the western economy.

The IJT Nazim Syed Abdur Rashid said that the Pakistani rulers were agents of foreign powers and had deprived the masses of the last morsel of food and books. The kin of the rulers were studying in the universities of London and New York while the Pakistani youth were deprived of basic facilities, he said. He demanded Urdu as medium of instruction, a uniform education system and syllabus for the entire country and restoration of students unions as promised by the Prime Minister.

Code: Select all

http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Regional/Lahore/18-Oct-2011/Sea-of-IJT-activists-shuts-road
putnanja
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by putnanja »

Amber G. wrote:
putnanja wrote:
Can you please provide links to substantiate your claims that JS took sweets and hugged the terrorists?
Interesting that not many here in BRF ask to provide links to substantiate even the most bizarre conspiracy theories, and demonstrably false statements made about, say MMS (Remember, no one (or not many) asked any question about branding Indian leader SG or M. Obama a sex worker)...

Meanwhile, let me just quote from another expert...
Jaswant Singh saw the opportunity that this represented to open doors to the Taliban regime. The family of the Taliban governor of Kandahar actually stayed in the Amritsar area. It made sense to use this opportunity to talk to them and Secy. Katju was able to arrange the meet and greet. Hence the holding hands and mithai.

Link:here
...
...
I, of course, was not there so will be more than willing to correct my statements.

None of the links that you posted, except the one by maverick(sunil sainis who used to post here and then took to BR bashing on his blog I suppose) has any info on JS taking mithais to terrorists or hugging them. Compromising with the taliban to secure release of hostages does not mean he took mithai and hugged them. Given the fact that he refused to shake hands with the paki FM during Kargil, I highly doubt that he would go and hug the taliban ministers at that time.

I don't know if maverick was talking in sarcasm, but I wouldn't take his post as gospel truth on JS taking mithai to the taliban.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by arun »

Former Director General of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan's spy agency the ISI/ISID, General Hamid Gul stabs the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s ally Saudi Arabia in the back by giving Iran a free pass on involvement in the plot to assasinate the Saudi Ambassador in the US.

Is it "Halal" for a Sunni mohammadden majority country like the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to take the side of a Shia mohammadden Majority country like Iran against Saudi Arabia a fellow Sunni mohammadden majority country that is home to Mecca and Madina and the birth country of mohammaddenism’s prophet?:

Pakistani General Views US Claims against Iran as New Plot against MuslimsPakistani General Views US Claims against Iran as New Plot against Muslims[/b]

Meanwhile Saudi Arabia is not giving Iran a free pass:

Saudis want alleged plot brought to U.N. council
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by pran »

One important fact that does not come up when talking about the Kandahar Hijack is the presence of the Intaglio currency printing company chief on the same flight. The international pressure on the Govt. of India contributed to the surrender decision.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by amit »

gakakkad wrote:
But some of the people the user Somnath (who is probably an economist associated in the past with the govt) was trying to defend are clearly anti national.. (especially the timings , immediately after a terror strike when every decent Indian would be angry). Its was similar to justifying taliban immediately after 9/11..
One of the persons somnath tried to justify wrote a highly libellous article against the Gujaratis (especially the expatriates ). As a Gujarati I felt like doing a whole lot of things to him... Some of the other people attended Fai's meetings...Fai as you know was a member of the ISI...
It's interesting how facts as it happened can be massaged to alter the narrative to suits any particular POV.

The facts: The "moral compass" going haywire comment by Ramana was directed at me with Somnath, unfortunately, getting a free ride. Now since Somnath ruffled more feathers than he realised (and certainly more than I did!) he gets all the credit! However, on hindsight I guess I ruffled fewer but more important feathers! :-)

And why was my "moral compass" questioned? That's because I objected to a poster speculating that everybody's favourite "Doggy" Singh knew about 26/11 and kept quiet about it in the TSP dhaga. Mind you I did not object to the post/allegation (call it what you will) itself. My limited point was that since this is a high profile dhaga with a lot of Pak Lurks and others visiting, this was not the appropriate place for this post as it just feeds into the Pak propaganda that 26/11 was done by India to malign Pakistan.

The said poster responded to my comment much later. But before that, another very high profile Admin jumped in and with skill befitting his high status in the BRF hierarchy twisted that into a Congress/anti-national vs BJP/nationalist argument that is so common here (remember one poster has even called for labeling or BRFites who are deemed to be Congress supporters as traitors)! He even threw in the name of Col Purohit for good measure and this from someone who dislikes posters using strawmen! :)

The whole chain of arguments are in the archives, if the admins have not deleted them, anyone interested can have a look.

It is here that the famous "moral compass" point came in.

The funny thing is just before this series of exchanges Somnath made a post about the Fai episode (that's the time frame), if any one cares to look I wrote a pretty "spirited" response to his POV (in disagreement). So much for both our "moral compasses" pointing in the same direction.
I regret the insult to the scientists and the highly respected particle physicist who used to post here once...And I expressed that before even..
You draw the right conclusion here. I feel the "moral compass" went haywire due to the high radiation in the nuke dhaga, the place where Somnath and I had a very close POV. This dhaga is probably most high profile but it's the nuke dhaga which has over the past few years witnessed the most septic discussions on this forum, reaching its regrettable low with Arun_S (unfortunately I feel, given his contributions) leaving.

Positioned hardened in that dhaga, it just expressed itself in this thread.

So just to reiterate, don't write a new narrative about the "moral compass" just move on. I'm sure BRF can do without me or Somnath so there's no need to justify Ramana's provocative post.

Sorry for the OT, but I must say I'm impressed by how daily the narrative was/is being reshaped without disturbing anyone's "moral compass".
Last edited by amit on 18 Oct 2011 08:24, edited 1 time in total.
arun
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by arun »

A Pakistani twist to a Potemkin Village.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan dresses up Pakistani’s in Uighur / Uyghur costume to welcome PR China Minister Meng Jianzhu with the view to project the idea that the Uyghur / Uighur community in Pakistan supports PR China and is not involved in indulging in Islamic Terrorism targeting PR China from the safe haven of Pakistan :
“There were some local [Pakistani] people who also participated in the ceremony wearing Uyghur clothing. They came to the party just to eat and dance, but the Chinese officials were not aware that they weren’t Uyghur,” said one Uyghur resident of Pakistan who attended the ceremony and wishes to remain anonymous.
‘Fake’ Group Welcomes Chinese Minister
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by harbans »

Anyone read this blog before on Kandahar Hijack? :D

http://ee.1asphost.com/raehatualmisk/az ... eedom.html

Many here may not be quite aware of what happened then. But it was widely reported that Jaswant Singh did indeed try and hug up with the Taliban. Amber G is not the first person to mention this. I have a very close association with that incident one that i would not like to reveal here. JS may have been under pressure, tremendous pressure but his performance under that whatever the constraints will be under scanner and criticism. That hugging part IIRC was trying to create a split between the Taliban and Paki handlers. Wasn't going to work in the first place. But that strand of thinking of attempting that was prevalent in some Govt circles. That circle got the better during Agra too.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by harbans »

Amit Ji welcome back. Where were you? :)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by parsuram »

Shiv ji: Re:
But when the Paki does that to an American the latter does not understand the cultural signals and how to bypass them with similar equal equal superficialities. For the American, being waited on hand and foot is something he cannot repay and he is too embarrassed to object to the attention for "fear" of antagonizing a good host. After a few such interactions the American ends up feeling that he is getting more than he deserves from this Paki for whom he is doing nothing. When the Paki provides him with a bill for use of road or airport, the American cannot refuse.
I am sure even the Americans are, by now (60+ years) well aware of the paki and his slavish mentality, and fully briefed before all official visits. So there is no excuse for them to be taken in by the paki any more. In any case, when it comes to taking care of US national interests, none of that should matter, so we have to take it that the US is, at all times, acting out of their national interest.
Last edited by parsuram on 18 Oct 2011 09:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Rudradev »

Since this thread has already gone so far OT, let me chime in.

One thing about this "hug" business. People who view it from a context predicated fundamentally on Western cultural norms see something distasteful in two men hugging, and attribute it to an unhealthy degree of closeness with overtones of homosexuality, etc.

In Asia west of India the hug does not connotate particular emotional closeness or even affection. Indeed, in places like Afghanistan it is the equivalent of the "handshake" in the West... an embrace with open arms to reveal that neither party had any weapons on him. A formal way of greeting, especially on public occasions, that conveyed that neither of the parties bore the other any ill-will. Even the Indian hug (gale lag jaana) is more a sign of warmth and affection than the gesture as it exists in lands to the West and Northwest, where it is simply a revelation of harmless intent.

So if Jaswant Singh, taking his life in his hands for the sake of 180 civilian hostages, landed on the tarmac at Kandahar and the Taliban leaders approached him with wide open arms what was he supposed to do? Back off? Insult them as untouchables?

Even if he did hug the Taliban leaders what is there? He was doing what a diplomat does, respecting the local norms of a country on an extremely sensitive mission. Yet for us, reading of it (or svarg forbid, seeing pictures of it) on glossy internet news portals, it seems a damning revelation of conspiracy or worse... only because we would not ordinarily hug anyone except perhaps our closest friends and relatives.

I remember a big deal was made by Pakistanis on various CNN-type internet fora, about how I K Gujral (as V P Singh's MEA) had "hugged" Saddam when he visited Baghdad on the eve of the first Gulf War. Again, nothing but a greeting in the tradition of the host country. He was even asked about it by an Indian newspaper and replied... what was he supposed to do? He had gone there to ensure the safe repatriation of Indian citizens from Kuwait in the teeth of an impending war. It would hardly have served his purpose to insult Saddam.

Let's not fall for these type of psyops... they are Macaulayite in the extreme.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by sum »

Headache with a hump for customs
For customs officials used to dealing with Cartier jewellery and Rolex watches, their latest catch may appear a little less refined and even a bit smelly.

It’s a camel that two Pakistani men apparently came riding as they tried to sneak into Rajasthan, before being shot dead by the BSF’s 171 Battalion at Azad outpost, Barmer.

The sturdy animal has survived its bullet injury, though. After release from its current home, a makeshift veterinary hospital in Barmer, it will be headed straight to a customs shed to present its officials a headache with a hump, BSF sources said.

It’s unclear who the intruders were but arms smugglers from Pakistan are known to carry out their cross-border trade with the help of camels. The so-called “ship of the desert” can travel long distances across the scorching sand without food or water, carrying heavy loads.
It was the floodlights that were the intruders’ undoing on September 30, BSF inspector-general A.K. Sinha said. A sentry spotted them around 1.30am and they were met with a hail of bullets. The intruders were in their 30s, and were carrying mobile phones, silk threads, four English and two Urdu newspapers, and cigarettes.
Interesting usage of words, "hail of bullets"....

Paklurks now know what the BSF will welcome them with if they try their hanky-panky anywhere near the border.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Rudradev »

parsuram wrote:Shiv ji: Re:
PS email me : Email Edited Out
.
Parsuram ji, I sent you email.

Rajesh-A ji, good point! :)
Last edited by Rudradev on 18 Oct 2011 09:31, edited 1 time in total.
RajeshA
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by RajeshA »

Gentle BRFites,
Always remember to delete your email addresses from the thread, and it is not a good policy to quote such info, as then the other loses control over his personal data!

Just a little tip!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by suryag »

Arent camels or other animals known to go back to the place where their home is ? If so hook up a GPS transmitter and send it across and note down the coordinates and pass it onto an Arty brigade, if not now for use in future
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Altair »

Lebanese terrorist killed in drone strike in Pakistan
Lebanese citizen Mohammad Ali Hamadeh has been killed in Saturday's US drone attack on al Qaeda hideout in Pakistan's North Waziristan, the German news agency DPA reported.

Citing intelligence sources in Pakistan, DPA said Hamadeh, a Hezbollah member, was killed along with a group of followers.

DPA has it that Hamadeh returned to Lebanon in December 2005 after being secretly released in Germany, where he was serving a life sentence for the 1985 hijacking of a TWA jetliner and killing of a US navy diver.

It had said Hamadeh had been released from a German prison in 2005 on bail after spending nearly 19 years in prison.

DPA, citing intelligence information, said Hamadeh fought along Hezbollah before moving to North Waziristan where he joined "Islamic Jihad" which has links to al Qaeda.

The report is interesting as it indicates that Hamadeh had indeed joined the Islamic Jihad Group, which was targeted in the June 19 attack. Among the 16 terrorists reported to have been killed in the attack were an al Qaeda leader named Abu Ahmed and 12 members of the Islamic Jihad Group.

This wouldn't be the first case of a terrorist from a Middle Eastern group that had been involved in a hijacking and murder spree in the 1980s being killed in Pakistan's tribal areas. On January 9, 2010, Jamal Saeed Abdul Rahim, an Abu Nidal Organization operative who participated in killing 22 hostages during the 1986 hijacking of Pan Am flight 73, was killed in a strike in North Waziristan.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Altair »

Islamabad, Oct 17 : The US has moved hundreds of new troops to the Afghan area bordering Pakistan’s insurgent-infested North Waziristan tribal region along with heavy artillery, helicopter gunships and sealed movement on the border, local media reports here said.

US forces deployed to new positions in the border areas facing Ghulam Khan in Pakistan between Saturday and Sunday night.

The troops occupied nearby vantage heights on hilltops, setting up observation posts, The News International said quoting Pakistani security officials and tribal elders.


Geo television reported that tribesmen living in the border areas said Afghan and US authorities had clamped a curfew in parts of Afghanistan’s eastern Khost province and started house-to-house search.

The villagers in Ghulam Khan said NATO warplanes were also seen flying over the border region several times during the day.

The News reported that the abrupt deployment of US forces near the border area with Pakistan has escalated tension in the militancy-plagued North Waziristan tribal region as US forces immediately sealed the main road connecting Pakistan border town of Ghulam Khan and Khost for traffic.

Pakistani security officials in North Waziristan confirmed the latest development and said they were monitoring the situation on the border with Afghanistan, The News reported.

There is no word from the US and NATO forces on the Pakistani media reports.

The American troop movement has been reported as US unmanned spy planes have stepped up strikes in the Waziristan tribal belt over the past few days. Washington has said that North Waziristan is a haven for members of the Haqqani network.
Courtesy:PTI
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by shiv »

parsuram wrote:
I am sure even the Americans are, by now (60+ years) well aware of the paki and his slavish mentality, and fully briefed before all official visits. So there is no excuse for them to be taken in by the paki any more. In any case, when it comes to taking care of US national interests, none of that should matter, so we have to take it that the US is, at all times, acting out of their national interest.

PS email me
and harbans, since you indicated an interest as well, write to me and I will send you a copy.
emailed.

The amazing thing is that I laboured under the impression that the Americans and assorted goras would not fall for this Paki way of doing things. But I was nevertheless puzzled by the behavior and words of people like Chuck Yeager, Brian Cloughley, Eric Margolis, John Fricker and even Christine Fair herself. But it was Fair who pointed out in the article about how Pakis negotiate that they inculcate a sense of "obligation". That is how Paki biraderis deal with each other - with favors and "obligation". they have pulled a lot of unsuspecting Americans in. I suspect that Black Americans other than Colin Powell is the US' best defence against Pakiness. Both Condy Rice and Ombaba are not taken in by all this. Pakistanis relate to white Americans better than Blacks who are sweepers, toilet cleaners and servants in the Pakistani narrative.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by shiv »

suryag wrote:Arent camels or other animals known to go back to the place where their home is ? If so hook up a GPS transmitter and send it across and note down the coordinates and pass it onto an Arty brigade, if not now for use in future
Well the problem is that not all the donkeys I see are heading towards Pakistan, which is a homeland for asses. But my research maybe incomplete.
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