Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 2011

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 25 Sep 2011 14:34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5SFrvmYzLI

lets have it on record. mullens speech incriminating the country of cutlets!

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 25 Sep 2011 14:39

chetak wrote:
Tamang wrote:Girl accused of blasphemy for a spelling error

Faryal Bhatti, a student at the Sir Syed Girls High School in Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) colony Havelian, erroneously misspelt a word in an Urdu exam while answering a question on a poem written in praise of the Holy Prophet (PBUH). The word in question was ‘laanat’ instead of ‘naat’ – an easy error for a child to make, as the written versions of the words are similar.
It does not matter.

Our great sickular republic under the benevolent rule of MMS the not so great, should afford the minorities all protection under our constitution.

A better presentation of the above news item. Please circulate widely.
http://goo.gl/iAcjw

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Sep 2011 14:45

Ivanev ji,

I think, it was because of American over-confidence that they could dictate the narrative, and because earlier India was a side-show!

AnimeshP · Post by **AnimeshP** » 25 Sep 2011 14:56

Lisa wrote:
AnimeshP wrote:Whatever you said about India goes for the sooper power as well and then some ...
Lets see US actions thus far ...
Chai-biscoot with Pakistan - check
Media houses coveting interviews of Pakis - check
Giving billions of dollars in aid (something India hasn't done) - check
Giving millitary awards to Pakistani generals (something India hasn't done) - check

So pray do tell me what fear is US instilling in Pakistani Army to take actions suitable to US interests and save American lives (how long has US been "urging" Pakis to go against the Haqqani faction and how long have the Pakis been cocking a snook at them?)
The difference between Gambia's foreign policy & US foreign policy vis-a-vis Pakistan is that Gambia is not pouring in billions of dollars into TSP coffers while getting its soldiers blown up on a daily basis
P.S. US vs Gambia do you 'fear' the US billions?

How does the similarity with US policy failure help us. How does it help
those who died in Mumbai. I frankly could not care less if the Americans
bedded the Pukes. I am only interested in Indians and Indian security and
currently there is a policy failure and a refusal to recognise that failure.

Yes the Americans give aid to pukistan and in their minds, in the
formulation of a policy that is going to buy them a dividend. You seem to
be implying that if the Americans have failed its OK for India to fail.

What is current Indian policy? I personally am hard pushed to describe it
as any more than chai biscoot with murderers.

You need to make pukistan pay. You need to formulate a policy where it
costs pukistan more then it is worth their while to give us misery.
Concentrate on that.

P.S. US vs Gambia do you 'fear' the US billions?

Question for you .. how do you know for sure that currently India is not making them pay?

Ummm .. when the US billions enable TSPA to increase its conventional strength vis-a-vis IA/IAF/IN , then yes I do get angry not "fearful" .. The day Gambia does the same, I'll have the same feelings for them ...

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 25 Sep 2011 15:15

AnimeshP wrote: Question for you .. how do you know for sure that currently India is not making them pay?

Ummm .. when the US billions enable TSPA to increase its conventional strength vis-a-vis IA/IAF/IN , then yes I do get angry not "fearful" .. The day Gambia does the same, I'll have the same feelings for them ...

In the absence of an understanding i think it is best if we end it here.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 25 Sep 2011 15:40

AnimeshP wrote:Question for you .. how do you know for sure that currently India is not making them pay?

The least India could do is increase our preparedness, considering how US itself forces India to de-escalate when pakis de escalate after blatant violations. USA can not complain now when USA itself is supplying pakis with arms, not to mention 99% loot of A grade brand new weapons that are looted in pakis that are meant for US A teams in Afghanistan by various container looters.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 25 Sep 2011 16:27

The United States, historically, has opted to pursue short term tactical goals in support of long term strategic objectives of its foreign policy. This is because such a mindset in foggy bottom is the most flexible, regardless of who sits in the WH or runs Congress. And tactical goals are best pursued in situations bordering chaos. Chaotic social, political, economic, etcetera conditions are a preferred mileu in which the US finds the most opportunities to further its interests. The fundamentals of US foreign policy are pretty much as layed out by Washington in his first term - no permanent friends or alliances, just its permanent interests were to rule US conduct abroad. We see that in action almost to perfection on the Indian subcontinent. Situations bordering on chaos will suit the US just fine. It brings into play all its tools to further its interests. In the current position as a result of dumb paki actions against US/NATO in Afghanistan, the US sees opportunity to utilize a host of policy options that can lead to favorable (for the US) outcomes with regard to about all regional actors. Conversely, there is little in the situation for India, or the paki (or even the PRCs) to cheer about, principally because the main actors, India and the paki, are tied to pretty transparent long term objectives, making it easy to manipulate both at will, and, if the priorities require, even getting to the PRCs thru a carom shot on these two sitting duck actors. Two cents.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 25 Sep 2011 16:34

Pakistan warns US it could ‘lose an ally’
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/33e3f1cc-e535 ... z1YxfPVZJi

See comment from "Realist"

1. My comments on a previous FT editorial are apposite, and I therefore reproduce the gist below:

2. The much touted "Haqqani Network" numbers some 5,000 vis a vis much better armed 140,000 ISAF/NATO troops. Imran Khan also pointed out this fact on Sky TV on the weekend.

3. To get to Kabul the Haqqani lot would need to travel through 250-300 kilometers of Afghanistan territory (from their alleged "safe haven"). That is 250-300 kilometers of ISAF/NATO controlled space. I think Imran Khan also mentioned this too.

4. It remains something of a mystery why the ISAF/NATO forces don't make mince out of these Haqqani guys over these 250-300 kilometers under the ISAF/NATO control.

5. Pakistan under Musharraf offered to fence the Pakistan Afghanistan border, which is approximately 2500 kilometers, but Afghanistan under Karzai (and hence under NATO) refused.

6. The big questions are: Why cant superior NATO/ISAF take care of this alleged Haqqani when this lot moves through 250-300 kilometers of NATO/ISAF controlled territory? Why doesn't Afghanistan resolve the matter by agreeing to fence the border?

7. The answer it is believed is that NATO/ISAF wish to claim "victory", and that is difficult to do so credibly. They need a scapegoat. Pakistan potentially provides this scapegoat. This is something akin to blaming Cambodia for losing the Vietnam war. The Americans may wish to weaken Pakistan for other reasons too.

8. The body language of Admiral Mullen and Secretary Panetta before the Senate Committee yesterday was not that of composed rational persons; they had the look of "beaten" men, disoriented and looking for excuses.

9. Finally the only negotiations that take place with the Taliban are said to relate to exchange/release of prisoners. On other matters the Taliban position has always been clear: foreigners must leave before discussions begin. Pretense of negotiations would not solve the problem. Period.

10. There is nothing that Pakistan can do to make United States "victorious" in Afghanistan or indeed anywhere. That poor country has already lost 60 billion dollars and lots of good lives in this American misadventure. More random killing by Americans in Pakistan would only be counterproductive. The Foreign Minister, not the most competent in the world for sure, has given a reasonable response in this instance. The Americans have been cautioned not to make rash talk.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 25 Sep 2011 17:16

eklavya wrote: See comment from "Realist"

What victory will the US gain by making the Pakis a scapegoat? Even if they do, they are most welcome, as one of the scums of the earth will meet its divine retribution. As about the Haqqanis, do they necessarily always have to cross the border, travel 300 kms and mount an attack on the NATO forces? In Afghanistan, no one can even predict whos who and whos working for who! Even people joining the Afghan National guards or converts from Taliban have been known to get back into the fold of the Taliban and Al-Quaida. Some years back one such incident was reported when one Afghan National guard fled from the base and was later found fighting against them with the Taliban. The ISI and Haqqani leadership from their safe Havens in Pakistan can do wonderful things to the NATO forces and thats why they might have traced the calls back to Pakistan. There is a significant populace in Afghanistan, even among common people who would do such things, in fears of threat to their lives or family's, money, or any other compulsions. The mirage of peace in Afghanistan is a Mirage only, nothing else, its more of a killing field. I only agree with one thing, the US might finally be realizing, how bad they have lost in Afghanistan, against a rag-tag army, so all that look and talk!

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 25 Sep 2011 17:30

Afghans accuse Pakistan over fresh border shelling

Pakistani security forces have fired hundreds of rockets into Afghanistan in recent days, killing a child and forcing hundreds to flee their homes, Afghan officials said on Sunday.

Fazilullah Wahidy, governor of the northeastern province of Kunar where the shelling happened, told AFP: "The shells were fired directly from Pakistani military posts and garrisons on that side of the border."

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 25 Sep 2011 17:33

Eklavya: Afghanistan has never recognized the Durand line as the border between Afghanistan and India - later paki stan. This was the principal basis for the Afghans being the only No vote to paki admission to the UN. Next, the Haqqini can infiltrate Afghanistan in 2s and 3s all across that porus border without detection, let alone being challanged or engaged in battle. As for the paki loosing all those people - that is mostly the paki's own internal matter. The paki has, for the first time since independence, attempted to enforce its writ and soverignity on the frontier region, with predictable conflict. That is no one's problem but the paki's. If the paki wanted to avoid that conflict, it could have given up claim to the region - after all most of the NWFP only "belongs" to the paki on maps, not on the ground. I do'nt know why or how the body language of those giving testimony at senate hearings has anything to do with their testimony of facts. Facts are facts, no matter how unpleasent they may be, and affect the witness by their unpleasentness. That is why the paki is the "scape goat" or any other kind of goat - because the paki, in its goat-i -ness got bigger than its britches and attacked US/NATO forces. Now, with torn britches, it is trying to cover its goat-i-behind. If negotiations with the taliban have been reduced to a pretense, that is the paki's doing. The paki needs to get its taliban house in order so that serious negotiations can occur for withdrawal of US/NATO forces. As long as the paki feels that it can"win" by getting US and NATO out of there unconditionally, it will not allow its taliban to negotiate in good faith. As usual, the paki has got ahead of itself. It attacked the US and NATO forces because it feels it has already "won". Let us see what the paki realizes in reality.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 25 Sep 2011 17:35

Hina Rabbani Khar called back from US visit

ISLAMABAD: As tension prevails between the United States and Pakistan, Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani summoned Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar back to Islamabad on Sunday for the All Parties Conference (APC).

Khar’s presence is said to be vital during the APC as she was one of the few members of the civilian leadership to have been directly approached by US officials regarding allegations of Pakistan running a proxy war in Afghanistan via the Haqqani network.

According to the Pakistan embassy in the United States, Khar will be cutting her trip short and likely flying back to Pakistan tonight. She will meet both Gilani and President Zardari on arrival, say sources.

Gilani on Sunday contacted leaders of various political parties to develop a consensus over the US allegations against Pakistani security institutions via the APC.

(Read more: Pakistan not responsible for security of US forces, says PM)

Sources said that the government has decided to take all the political parties on board before drafting a strategy over the allegations by the US that Pakistan was complicit with the Haqqani network responsible for last week’s attack on the US embassy and a Nato headquarters in Kabul.

Gilani contacted Pakistan Muslim League-Nawaz (PML-N) chief Mian Nawaz Sharif, Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) chief Altaf Hussain and Awami National Party (ANP) chief Asfandayar Wali .

(Read: US-Pak matters: Gilani takes all politicians on board)

On Sunday, Pakistan’s military leadership also unanimously rejected the allegations leveled against Pakistani security institutions by the United States.

The six hour long emergency Corps Commanders meeting chaired by Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani concluded in Rawalpindi on Sunday. Sources said no formal declaration of the meeting will be issued.

Chairman joint chiefs of staff committee (CJCSC) General Khalid Shamim Wynne expressed concern over the recent statements made by the US, and said that Pak-US relations need to be improved.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 25 Sep 2011 17:35

Sharing intelligence? Red lines? Where have I read that before?

US asked to share intelligence on Haqqani network

US must not cross ‘red lines’, says FM Khar

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 25 Sep 2011 17:36

^^^ something tells me that the guy "realist" a paki ...

the haqqani's bombed unkil embassy this year an that of sdre last year...

"5000 men" is an estimate given by imran playboy ...a hawkish mullah... pakis have not had a census for god knows how many years...

poorly armed (what do you call home made "aks") and unprofessionally trained barbarians killed 156 in 26/11... ...killed 37 US marines involved in the OBL operation etc etc etc

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Sep 2011 17:39

Lisa wrote:
AnimeshP wrote:I'm not sure of you followed the whole discussion or just jumped in to do "rah-rah USA". But even here I will ask you a question .. so how many times did USA bomb the Soviet Union or for that matter any of the other countries mentioned in your list ?
Humbly and with the deepest of respect. All victories and not to be
achieved through a bomb or the barrel of a gun. One must think out of the
box and think about adopting another's successful ideas.

But you have to agree that India is wrong to imagine that victory can be achieved without guns.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 25 Sep 2011 17:40

Pak-US Business Council worried on wild allegation

LAHORE: The Pak-US Business Council on Sunday expressed their serious concerns over the series of wild allegation and threat to Pakistan by the US administration and armed forces chief to achieve their interests.
Founder Chairman Pak-US Business Council and veteran trade leader Iftikhar Ali Malik while talking to APP here said that The United States must realise the sacrifices being offered by Pakistan to fight against menace of terror in the region.

He said that the US should demonstrate the highest degree of responsibility in the war against terrorism.

He said the entire world candidly acknowledged several times that Pakistan is the only country of the globe that suffered trillions of dollars' losses since 9/11, he added.

He said that 5000 valiant troops of Pakistan armed forces laid down their lives in the war against terrorism and more than 35000 innocent people lost their lives in suicide attacks.

Pakistan has sustained loss of at least 4$ trillion including $ 200 billion to its economic sector in the aftermath of 9/11 and turmoil in Afghanistan", said Iftikhar Ali Malik.

He said that at this crucial juncture, the entire nation especially business community stands united with valiant armed forces of Pakistan against any external threats.

He said that conspiracies hatched against Pakistan by foreign elements will fizzle out.” With the grace of Allah Almighty our country will survive well".

He lauded the services of armed forces personnel who sacrificed with their lives while fighting with terrorists.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 25 Sep 2011 17:48

^^^^ Pakistan is fulfilling its destiny....... that of a sacrificial goat.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Sep 2011 18:31

The US-Pakistan events are moving quite fast. After the Mullen, Panetta accusations and Gilani, Hina Khar's & Kayani's reaction to the same, it is now being said that Gilani has asked Hina Khar to cut short her US trip and return immediately.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 25 Sep 2011 18:32

Gerard wrote:Sharing intelligence? Red lines? Where have I read that before?

US asked to share intelligence on Haqqani network

US must not cross ‘red lines’, says FM Khar

The Americans will parcel the dossiers with JDAMs along with some sacrificial goat err....mutton biriyani and drop it right in center of Islamabad, overnight express delivery.

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 25 Sep 2011 18:34

Brutal Haqqani Clan Bedevils U.S. Officials in Afghanistan

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 25 Sep 2011 18:38

Pratyush wrote:
The risk then is that if US officials pullback from the brinkmanship games with Pakistan, and begin once again to count on its cooperation, they could perhaps turn up the pressure on India to resolve the Kashmir dispute.

Realistically, what is the pressure that they can turn up on India?

Or to put it another way, using the US/NATO/ISAF pressure on Pakistan as an example, discuss India's purported inability to stand up to it.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Sep 2011 18:39

Don't know if this NYT report has been posted. Dipankar, GuptaJi, DocJi, R-man etc, the following entrenched thinking in DC is worth repeating

The single biggest message Kayani should hear in Washington is that this support must end,” said the cable, written by Ambassador Anne W. Patterson.

In the 30 months since, few in Washington believe that Pakistan’s support of armed militia groups has diminished. American officials who were once optimistic they could change Pakistani behavior through cajoling and large cash payments now accept a sober reality: as long as Pakistan sees its security under threat by India’s far larger army, it will rely on militant groups like the Haqqanis, the Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba as occasional proxy forces.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 25 Sep 2011 18:41

Corps Commanders meets amid US tensions

The extraordinary meeting of the corps commanders came against the backdrop of sharp US allegations that Pakistan army’s powerful spy agency supported the Haqqani militant group Washington blames for the recent attack on its embassy and other targets in Kabul.

“The prevailing security situation was discussed,” military spokesman Major-General Athar Abbas said without giving details.

On the other hand

According to details, Gilani called the chief of Pakistan Muslim League-N Mian Nawaz Sharif, MQM Chief Altaf Hussain, head of ANP Asfandyar Wali, head of Jamat-e-Islami, Munawar Hassan, JUI Chief Maulana Fazlur Rehman, PML-Q leader Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain and Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed of the Awami Muslim League.

All the leaders were taken into confidence by the prime minister who stated that Pakistan will respond with honesty to the false allegations made by the US.

What's cooking?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Sep 2011 18:50

The US can do little or nothing if Pakistan gradually chokes off supplies to US troops in Afghanistan. Pakistan forced the US into this situation partly because the US trusted Pakistan due to historic ties.

The US's options are:
1. Keep paying Pakistan money and try to keep its military promises even as terrorist attacks continue while trying to increase the size and significance of alternate supply routes. This is a likely course IMO. For the US it will be a climb down even i it is presented as a Pakistan GUBO

2. The US can pull out of Afghanistan in shame and blame Pakistan for the mess and let the mess play out. I believe that this is unlikely - but one can never tell.

3. The US (in theory) can attempt to force Pakistan to keep its roads open. This is impossible. I repeat i.m.p.o.s.s.i.b.l.e. It will require conquest and control of several tens of thousands of Paki sq km as well as control of Karachi

4. The US can bomb Pakistan back to the stone age. I mention this only to ROTFL and bet right here and now that this will not happen even if all patriots insist that the US can do this any time. This is such a big joke I will laugh for a decade about that. I promise you.

These options are so easy to think of that the Pakistani army will know these facts really well. Why do you think they are so aggressive? In fact I think most people have figured this out so even the biggest US bhakts are coming on here and saying that US will solve without war, out of box blah blah even though they have the power. And that Pakistan will GUBO blah blah.

Actually I predict there will come a time when only India can help the US out of this mess. But I will keep laughing till that day arrives - while I weep from time to time as terrorists hit India. Please archive this post and stone me to death if things work out differently. I will die with a smile on my face that US solved the Pakistan problem

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 25 Sep 2011 18:53

SSridhar wrote:The US-Pakistan events are moving quite fast. After the Mullen, Panetta accusations and Gilani, Hina Khar's & Kayani's reaction to the same, it is now being said that Gilani has asked Hina Khar to cut short her US trip and return immediately.

I think we need to list out some scenarios which would pan out in the next couple of days. Pakis being tactically brilliant can come up with some rather uniquely identifiable actions. Their first priority would be to divert attention.
1They can start shelling the LoC.
2.Give a go ahead to some of their sleeper cells in Mumbai or Delhi
3.Coup-de-etat by more jihadi jernail
4 Hijack an International Airline and do a mini 9/11
5.Steal their own nuke warheads and blame them on extremists in the army who would not take the US humiliation anymore.Demand would be that all US personnel in Pakistan should leave immediately or else they would lob it on India or Afghanistan.
Any and all the above are possible in any given order in any combination

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Sep 2011 18:55

shiv wrote: Actually I predict there will come a time when only India can help the US out of this mess.

How can India help the US
1. Hand over India to Pakistanis and let the Paki flag fly on Red Fort
2. Hand over Kashmir to Pakistan
3. Neither 1 or 2 above, but normalize relations, keep talking, and improve trade even as terrorism continues.
4. Fight a war that is a stalemate - maybe a limited nuclear war and make a big mess for India. Pakistan is already in a mess and nuke war will hardly make it worse. The mess gets bigger for the US which can then cop out, save ass, save face and leave saying "Not my problem any more"

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 25 Sep 2011 19:06

shiv wrote: Actually I predict there will come a time when only India can help the US out of this mess.

Ya, Pakistan does another mumbai type attack and India responds by actually fire Shouryas and Brahmos up their ass and start early Deepawali

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Sep 2011 19:13

shiv wrote:Please archive this post and stone me to death if things work out differently. I will die with a smile on my face that US solved the Pakistan problem

All are armchair generals onlee! Here an alternative:

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 25 Sep 2011 19:13

shiv wrote:
shiv wrote: Actually I predict there will come a time when only India can help the US out of this mess.
How can India help the US
1. Hand over India to Pakistanis and let the Paki flag fly on Red Fort
2. Hand over Kashmir to Pakistan
3. Neither 1 or 2 above, but normalize relations, keep talking, and improve trade even as terrorism continues.
4. Fight a war that is a stalemate - maybe a limited nuclear war and make a big mess for India. Pakistan is already in a mess and nuke war will hardly make it worse. The mess gets bigger for the US which can then cop out, save ass, save face and leave saying "Not my problem any more"

How can India help US?
I don't know.
What should India do?
IMO, do Nothing! We can get some popcorn and earplugs meanwhile, as the neighbors get into ugly quarrels.

Btw: Jalaluddin Haqqani used to work for the CIA once. Maybe they forgot to give him his paycheck??

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 25 Sep 2011 19:21

In the end, those who are slouching on the recliners with pop corns and beer will run out of pop corns and beer and picture will not change.
US is not going to bomb Pakistan any time soon except for drones and Pakis are not going to raise temperature beyond a certain level.
OBL is dead and Ombaba would want to bring troops back home by Nov'12. Eventually US will have to play to the tune of Pakis because like it or not,Pakis have too many resources on the ground. I say US will make peace with Taliban (by giving them some other name), dump Karzai and pack up for home leaving some boots on the ground in the end.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 25 Sep 2011 19:22

shiv Ji: You missed the obvious - US goes to supplying its forces by air. Recall the Berlin air supply program of the 50s. The US took on task of feeding and supporting a city of over 2 mil. There US was flying over hostile Soviet (EGerman) air space. No one dared shoot at them. After a while, air and land corridors were negotiated. The Afghanistan mission is a UN mission. Paki will not shoot at US supply planes - if they do - well, it is their party or potty.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 25 Sep 2011 19:30

VikasRaina wrote:In the end, those who are slouching on the recliners with pop corns and beer will run out of pop corns and beer and picture will not change.

Actually we were intending to have popcorn and watch the show of blame game unfold. Its like a rom-com, where the couples fight and again make up, it has been going on like this for centuries now. As discussed umpteen times, no one even bothers about what the US does or doesn't. Do we need to give a damn until and unless it hurts our interests!! That's why the earplugs, afterall, how long can you take such useless banter. Nice way you have put it though, thanks!

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 25 Sep 2011 19:36

parsuram wrote:shiv Ji: You missed the obvious - US goes to supplying its forces by air. Recall the Berlin air supply program of the 50s. The US took on task of feeding and supporting a city of over 2 mil. There US was flying over hostile Soviet (EGerman) air space. No one dared shoot at them. After a while, air and land corridors were negotiated. The Afghanistan mission is a UN mission. Paki will not shoot at US supply planes - if they do - well, it is their party or potty.

Parsuram ji, PA in the guise of LeT/JuD/TTP etc. can shoot down an American Plane with manpad and then as usual plead helplessness.
Soviets I guess were not as crazy for 72 as Pakis seem to be.

Samudragupta · Post by **Samudragupta** » 25 Sep 2011 19:43

The only way where things seems to be movng is that Pakistan will continue to follow ruthlessly the doctrine of Strategic Depth in the West and Americans can do nothing to stop this....For Pakistan East now is not the main theatre...in as much Pakistan has crossed the stage where they need movements against East for their actions in the West...and west will be the primary focus of interest of Pakistan for some time...and they are surely well prepared for a conflict in the West even against the Americans because in this case Americans are the weaker combatant compared to the Pakistan.

In a way Pakistan is pretty sure that East will not initiate any conflict, on top of it they have brought the PLA insurance in the East,so Pakis are actually sitting quite comfortably in the table....

Pakistan now resembles much like LTTE post RG assasination

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Sep 2011 19:53

parsuram wrote:shiv Ji: You missed the obvious - US goes to supplying its forces by air. Recall the Berlin air supply program of the 50s. The US took on task of feeding and supporting a city of over 2 mil. There US was flying over hostile Soviet (EGerman) air space. No one dared shoot at them. After a while, air and land corridors were negotiated. The Afghanistan mission is a UN mission. Paki will not shoot at US supply planes - if they do - well, it is their party or potty.

In fact I dismissed this as unlikely. My bet is that the US will find this too expensive. It is cheaper to pay Pakistanis. It is the US that will capitulate and cough up more.

The Berlin airlift was an ego issue and the planes were from friendly territory in the heart of Europe at a time when oil was dirt cheap. The nearest "friendly" bases are in the Middle East or Diego Garcia. They can beg India though - but then the US will have to capitulate to Indian demands and the US is afraid of pissing off Pakis

Pakis will simply threaten to shoot down one plane flying from India using the excuse "We thought it was an Indian attack". The US will then be forced into a war which they don't want. 5 or 6 years ago I predicted that the US has become weaker because it is over stretched with Iraq ad Afghanistan. They cannot fight a war with Pakistan. Note that I am making dogmatic statements. I would be happy to be proven wrong but I am certain I will not be wrong on this one. The US will_not_initiate_war with Pakistan. And Pakistanis are too clever to initiate war directly.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 25 Sep 2011 19:58

Link

Senator says "all options on table" on Pakistan

The United States will have to consider all options "including defending our troops" in confronting Pakistani support for militant networks fighting U.S. soldiers in the region, a senator said on Sunday.

"We need to put Pakistan on notice," Sen. Lindsey Graham, a Republican member of the Armed Services Committee said on "Fox News Sunday."

U.S. military leaders said last week the Pakistani army's powerful ISI spy agency supported the Haqqani militant group that Washington blames for an attack on its embassy and other targets in Kabul, Afghanistan. Pakistan denied the allegations.

Graham said Pakistan has to choose between helping the Haqqani network and helping the United States fight al Qaeda in Afghanistan and border regions of Pakistan.

"The idea of Pakistan's intelligence agencies supporting terrorism as a national strategy needs to come to an end," Graham said.

"It destabilizes Afghanistan. They're killing American soldiers. If they continue to embrace terrorism as part of their national strategy we're going to have to put all options on the table, including defending our troops."

Graham said Washington should reconsider assistance to Pakistan and noted last week's approval by a Senate committee of $1 billion to Pakistan for counterterrorism operations. The panel made that and any economic aid conditional on Islamabad cooperating with Washington against militant groups, including the Haqqanis.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 25 Sep 2011 20:02

^^ Shiv ji, US has one more option than that.

Hypothetically:

At one point they take a sensible decision and pull out of the region. World, especially muslim world, will make fun of them but american citizens will be happy. Now this monkey is off their back pakis now are of no use. They can now take vengeance. They can declare pakistan a terrorist state and severely sanction them. They can freeze trades, money flow, all assets of elites, deport their kins. How long pakistan can be a Zimbabwe? pakistan will be left for its own survival. If I can't "win" in afghanistan then neither can you. Give up your jewels or rot in hell.

Meanwhile what worst could happen in Afghanistan? Taliban can come out open to take over Kabul. So lets face the fear. Indian interest and afghans are sacrificed as always. The region is back to 2001 except pakis are rotting in sanctions. Not bad for the Indian interest either. And for the US, live now to kill later.

Now for the paki nukes where all complexity lingers. They had it before and if they choose to fight then they will continue to. But I am optimistic that if the west chooses to de-nuke pakistan then they can. Paki elites are fragile. They might choose to hand over nukes and take refuge in the west. Otherwise everyone will have to live with it - or wait for another crisis to seriously confront it.

uhhh ok, I am waking up.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Sep 2011 20:14

I have a theory for US's inability to punish pakis...

IMHO the cookie in the proverbial monkey trap jar is unkils balls. I have a feeling that ISI has some incriminating evidence of unkils involvement in some of cross-border terrorism events, be it in india o Afghanistan in addition to the stash of clown jewels and drug trade. Perhaps pakis are blackmailing to go public with all the details if pushed to wall.

The only way Unkil can come out clean from this if he does an Iraq on pakis, but there isnt enough money for this at Unkil. So he is trying to find new ways.

One approach is to dismantle ISI and take the records out of Pakistan. Probably that is why they are separating Isi from TSPA.

Just another CT

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 25 Sep 2011 20:23

^^^ Any evidence with the Paki's is practically useless... All US has to say is "Poaks are lying.." We ll all believe that true be true... Besides what can Pak do with such an evidence? Sue unkil ?

Threaten to attack unkil ?

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 25 Sep 2011 20:41

Chinese Vice Premier Li Keqiang to visit Islamabad tomorrow to "discuss strategic matters".