Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 2011

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shiv
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 28 Sep 2011 08:55

The Pakistanis are not making it better for themselves vis a vis the USA. But my real doubt is whether the US is capable of making it better for itself.

They have armed, strengthened and above all trusted the Pakistani army and made it into a monster. I will say it again, as I will continue to say it. Stop arming and funding the Pakistan army. It will be years before it becomes more weak, given what the US has done for it in the last 10 years. Self goal by the USA. Every time I said this on here I was told that the US has the Paki army in control and the funding and arming in US interests. The US works for its own interest and is not bothered about India.. That was utter rubbish - faith in the US based on flawed US calculations.It would be a mistake to imagine that China can somehow "take over" where the US left off. The US was not in control. China too will not control anything. One can hope that the Chinese are less stupid then the US wrt Pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Anujan » 28 Sep 2011 09:12

Unkil backpedling:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/adm-mullens-words-on-pakistan-come-under-scrutiny/2011/09/27/gIQAHPJB3K_story.html

Adm. Mike Mullen’s assertion last week that an anti-American insurgent group in Afghanistan is a “veritable arm” of Pakistan’s spy service was overstated and contributed to overheated reactions in Pakistan and misperceptions in Washington, according to American officials involved in U.S. policy in the region.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Kanson » 28 Sep 2011 09:14

Don't take one article to come to an judgement. Of course, 'dealing' between Pak and US is many wheels within wheel and they are truly matched for each other.
Last edited by Kanson on 28 Sep 2011 09:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 28 Sep 2011 09:14

Mahendra wrote:
A clerical alliance in Pakistan has issued a religious decree (fatwa) saying that it is illegitimate (haram) to call the United States a "superpower" because "only Allah Almighty deserved the title." Decline-o-meter score: 4


:rotfl:

Wonder what the comical alliance of sheikh chilli maulanas have to say about the soopah powah ambitions of more nourishing than melamine milk, sweeter than honey and hornier than lynn choos friend Cheena

I don't think biladels are stupid. They would have learned a thing or two about TSP and its perfidy from this unkil's af-pak saga.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Pratyush » 28 Sep 2011 09:19

Meanwhile in un-kill land Ombaba is getting nervous by declaring US not tilting towards Delhi, say there’s no anti-American sentiment in Pak

WTF, does he mean be saying, "there’s no anti-American sentiment in Pak"

Fixed url
Last edited by Pratyush on 28 Sep 2011 11:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby parsuram » 28 Sep 2011 09:26

shiv wrote:The Pakistanis are not making it better for themselves vis a vis the USA. But my real doubt is whether the US is capable of making it better for itself.

They have armed, strengthened and above all trusted the Pakistani army and made it into a monster. I will say it again, as I will continue to say it. Stop arming and funding the Pakistan army. It will be years before it becomes more weak, given what the US has done for it in the last 10 years. Self goal by the USA. Every time I said this on here I was told that the US has the Paki army in control and the funding and arming in US interests. The US works for its own interest and is not bothered about India.. That was utter rubbish - faith in the US based on flawed US calculations.It would be a mistake to imagine that China can somehow "take over" where the US left off. The US was not in control. China too will not control anything. One can hope that the Chinese are less stupid then the US wrt Pakistan.


Shiv Ji:

In a sense, the paki is like a beggar at a wedding - it matters not who is getting married to whom, as long as he gets what he wants. To some extent, the wedding families almost need the paki - to wash off sins, to meet obligations that will translate into prosperity for the new family an so on. Although a beggar, the paki does not see himself that way. He is providing a necessary service, playing an essential role in the wedding proceedings. He knows only this. Other than that, he knows there will be other weddings, taking on the collective guilt of two old families and one new one. So he goes on, oblivious to the fact that he is burdening himself with all that karmic dust. content in knowing that on this is one more day he has eaten well. So now, when at a wedding in a family he has attended before, things change, he is bewildered. The bride's father is giving him a serious tongue lashing - just for utilizing the "take out" utensils he always brings, and worse, ordering him about, telling him he should help clean up, wash dishes, et cetera. This is not part of the program. The paki is angry, upset and disturbed. Under the circumstances, the bride's father is going to be careful. He is not going to have the street up in arms against him. It is a delicate time for his family, and he has to tread carefully and softly. Only once he gets the fkcing lunchoos out in some dark ally will he deal with him as the paki's behavior demands. But, and this is important based on my knowledge of neighborhood - mohalla - dynamics, A recconing will be there for the paki, of this one can be fairly assured.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Raja Bose » 28 Sep 2011 09:27

Pratyush wrote:Meanwhile in un-kill land Ombaba is getting nervous by declaring [urlhttp://www.firstpost.com/politics/us-not-tilting-towards-delhi-say-theres-no-anti-american-sentiment-in-pak-94134.html]US not tilting towards Delhi, say there’s no anti-American sentiment in Pak[/url]

WTF, does he mean be saying, "there’s no anti-American sentiment in Pak"


:rotfl: This is a bit rich! The Paki foreign minister Khar herself said there is Anti-American sentiment in Pakiland against Unkil and now Unkil is denying there is Anti-American sentiment in Pakiland. Just goes to show how much suit browning Unkil does when their pet mongrel barks. Superpower indeed! :lol:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Johann » 28 Sep 2011 09:28

The 'good Taliban' believes America is bad but Pakistan is good for supporting jihad in Afghanistan.

The 'bad Taliban' believes that America is bad and therefore Pakistan is bad because it also supports the American war in Afghanistan.

There's a reason that Afghanistan was so hopeful 2001-03, and saw saw much progress. Pakistan wasn't playing the spoiler role that it had for so long. The 'bad Taliban' is very much the product of Musharraf's almost unstinting support to the US in Afghanistan 2001-03.

The 'bad Taliban's' multiple attempts to kill Musharraf in 2003, and their ability to recruit enlisted military personnel, along with the US focus on Iraq convinced Musharraf and the PA from 2004 onwards that a change in their Afghan policy policy was both good and necessary.

The ISI uses the 'good' Taliban to undermine the 'bad', but that works only as long as Pakistan supports jihad against the Americans in Afghanistan.

Does America have the national consensus to threaten Pakistan the way it did in September 2001, and the focus and experience to keep up that pressure? Is it likely to work again, given the much greater levels of anti-Americanism in Pakistan and the PA?

Whether they like it or not, as I've said here for a number of years the US is heading for a relationship with Pakistan that looks more like what it has with countries like Syria, Iran and Sudan. Four years ago few here could imagine it, and every passing year it gets a little less hard to believe.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby SSridhar » 28 Sep 2011 09:43

The 'good Taliban' and 'bad Taliban' play the 'good cop' and 'bad cop' role respectively. There is no division between them, save for the internecine tribal differences that go back centuries. Haqqani always mediated when things got out of control between the Waziris and the Mehsuds. The PA tried to exploit the differences to its advantage. This is akin to the mujahideen's jihad against the USSR. They were again disparate and had to be marshalled by the ISI. The ISI wanted to have a similar role between the 'good' and the 'bad' Taliban. It did not pan out that way.

On the broader canvas of opposition to the Yahuds, Hanuds and the Nasaras, as well as the establishment of the Caliphate through Pakistan, the two Talibans are together along with a large section of the Pakistani Army itself. The 'good Taliban' appear 'good' to the Pakistanis because for the time being, they are fighting the Americans in Afghanistan. The 'bad Taliban' appear 'bad' to the Pakistanis because they have been concentrating on Pakistan. For the discerning though, these are the twin objectives of the AQAM. There is no contradiction in their approach.

A time will come though when the 'good Taliban' will also turn 'bad'.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 28 Sep 2011 09:50

Johann wrote:Whether they like it or not, as I've said here for a number of years the US is heading for a relationship with Pakistan that looks more like what it has with countries like Syria, Iran and Sudan. Four years ago few here could imagine it, and every passing year it gets a little less hard to believe.


That is a fair take on what is likely to happen. It means continuing danger to India though, and probably to the US as well. Syria, Sudan and Iran together constitute 130 million people. Add about 170 million Pakis to that. The US can't do anything about all those countries but tries to restrict how other countries deal with them.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Nandu » 28 Sep 2011 10:10

Raja Bose wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Meanwhile in un-kill land Ombaba is getting nervous by declaring [urlhttp://www.firstpost.com/politics/us-not-tilting-towards-delhi-say-theres-no-anti-american-sentiment-in-pak-94134.html]US not tilting towards Delhi, say there’s no anti-American sentiment in Pak[/url]

WTF, does he mean be saying, "there’s no anti-American sentiment in Pak"


:rotfl: This is a bit rich! The Paki foreign minister Khar herself said there is Anti-American sentiment in Pakiland against Unkil and now Unkil is denying there is Anti-American sentiment in Pakiland. Just goes to show how much suit browning Unkil does when their pet mongrel barks. Superpower indeed! :lol:



DDMitis Onlee. That is not what she (the US spokesperson) said. What she said is it is wrong to credit Paki anti-American sentiment to an US tilt towards India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Altair » 28 Sep 2011 10:21

Shiv,
It gives a false sense of security to attribute the reckless driving of a fast moving fire-engine to an intelligent yet devious person. We thought that whoever is driving that recklessly is somehow in control or regain control and will apply brakes or veer off the collision at the right time and we all live happily ever after. First we thought it was the American driver who although is reckless and endangers every ones life has the ability to maneuver the vehicle if he chooses to. I am assuming it is the Chinese now who is in control just to give a false self assurance that 40 tonne fire engine coming towards me is actually in human control.
Doc saab, you are right, The fire engine was never in anyone's control and it can never be. The only way to stop it is to take it out with a missile. Any thing else is just religious preaching inviting Gods intervention and Gods will. It appears we were all working like Christian evangelists spreading the word of America.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Rudradev » 28 Sep 2011 10:25

Johann wrote:
There's a reason that Afghanistan was so hopeful 2001-03, and saw saw much progress. Pakistan wasn't playing the spoiler role that it had for so long. The 'bad Taliban' is very much the product of Musharraf's almost unstinting support to the US in Afghanistan 2001-03.

The 'bad Taliban's' multiple attempts to kill Musharraf in 2003, and their ability to recruit enlisted military personnel, along with the US focus on Iraq convinced Musharraf and the PA from 2004 onwards that a change in their Afghan policy policy was both good and necessary.
.


From 2001-2003, it wasn't just Musharraf who was "playing nice"... the US was keeping its part of the bargain as well, and actively working to save as many Pakistani "assets" in Afghanistan as possible. The Kunduz Airlift, when thousands of jihadis and ISI operatives were given safe conduct back to Pakistan is one case in point. The disappearance of OBL from under the very noses of coalition troops at Tora Bora is another.

The Americans' goal at the time was only to rid Afghanistan of Al Qaeda (Islamist groups who targeted the *West* specifically.) Washington repatriated the ISI jihadi cadres from Kunduz, fully expecting that Pakistan would again use those cadres to dominate Afghanistan, once the US had finished its job of eliminating Al Qaeda from the region. The US never had a problem with Pakistan-Proxy Taliban rule in Afghanistan; they had been actively engaged with the Taliban since 1996, and to them, the Al-Qaeda business was merely a hiccup in what could once more become a productive relationship.

Unfortunately for America, and very fortunately for India, things did not go as planned by Musharraf and the Bush regime. Musharraf underestimated the degree to which various Deobandi Tanzeems, formerly beholden to the ISI, had become Islamized by transfusions with Taliban Afghans and Arab/Central Asian Al-Qaeda militants. Indeed, he did not see the extent to which the Pakistan Army itself had become Islamized and acquired loyalty to a "higher authority" than himself. He may have continued to believe for a time that his breed of General still had the Jihadis "by the scruffs of their necks."

I don't believe that the stage-managed "assassination attempts" against Musharraf had anything to do with the change in policy, circa 2004, when Pakistan began to assist the rearming and regrouping of the Taliban in NWFP/FATA. The Iraq war diversion certainly did; Musharraf thought that he could take advantage of Washington's distraction in Iraq, and with characteristic tactical brilliance, decided to turn the heat up on the Americans at the Afghan border. In so doing, Musharraf was obviously hoping to blackmail Washington for more aid.

It was also in 2004 that the CIA first began using drones to strike at regrouping Taliban targets within Pakistani territory. This was when resentment against the Pakistan Army among the regrouping Taliban first began to brew, sowing the seeds for a "Bad Taliban"'s emergence later on. After all, until 2003 Musharraf (with American compliance) had protected the ISI's chosen Taliban cadre quite well... seeing them safely into FATA, facilitating their efforts to rebuild their strength for a counterattack, etc.

By 2005 things had become slightly inconvenient for Musharraf, with the Taliban growing restive in FATA. Baitullah Mehsud had to be bribed at Sara Rogha to accept a ceasefire; but even at this point Baitullah was content to let the Frontier Corps maintain a presence in the territories under his control.

However, it was not until after the Lal Masjid siege of July 2007 that a "Bad Taliban" emerged in earnest to oppose the TSPA establishment under Musharraf. Only in December 2007 did Baitullah Mehsud convene the TTP; soon after, the merry rampage of Mullah Radio into SWAT kicked off many years of fireworks in Pakistan proper.

The Haqqanis are a last-ditch effort by the TSPA to regain control of the movement they once spawned and nursed from its infancy. Of all the Taliban groups, the Haqqanis have neither opposed Islamabad directly (as the TTP has) nor tried to go behind Islamabad's back to conclude peace agreements with the US and Karzai (as the Quetta Shura has.) The Pakis tried to re-establish their sponsorship of Hekmatyar for a while, but found him lacking in popular support among the present generation of Pashtun jihadis, and probably didn't trust him that much anyway. So finally, the Haqqanis were by far Islamabad's best and safest bet for a proxy in Afghanistan.

Unfortunately the Haqqanis in North Waziristan (along with Maulvi Nazir's group in South Waziristan) have been *the* primary targets of US drone strikes since the Obama administration took office and the new Af-Pak policy came into effect. This is because the Haqqanis, for all their loyalty to the ISI, have stubbornly refused to stop sheltering a large number of foreign Al-Qaeda cadres. That has been the fly in the ointment. The Haqqanis are the best bet for Islamabad because of their consistent loyalty to the ISI, and completely unacceptable to the Americans because they continue to shelter a number of "most dangerous terrorists" from the US point of view.
Last edited by Rudradev on 28 Sep 2011 11:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 28 Sep 2011 10:40

"The Chinese too have a visceral dislike for the Indians, because in addition to the obvious that they are competitors,.."

Very good observations, but how does it square with the article in the NY Times a few weeks ago, which made it pretty clear that China barely notices India, while India is "obsessed" with China? As I( and no doubt others) have pointed out, the Chinese do indeed see India as a competitor, and many of their economic initiatives have followed Indian activities, *not* the other way around. You can think of IT, BPO, Oceanography, diamond cutting and polishing, granite industry, astronomy, IIT type institutions, speaking English, nuclear power stations, the dairy industry, supercomputers, statistical institutes, and a few more. In none of these areas did India follow China's example, which is what you would expect from a country 'obsessed' with another. But the NY Times tries to convey the idea that India is not a factor at all in Chinese calculations, an utterly false notion.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Philip » 28 Sep 2011 10:57

Shiv ,wise sage (I daren't call him "old" !),is right asusual.The US has pumped Pak for decades with "terrorist" steroids,rught from the days of Gen. Zia-I think it was he,who used to boast that Pak had enough weaponry to keep fighting on for a century,that even if they depart in indecemt haste from Afghanistan,the billions of arms left behind in the TSP will plague the globe for another century at least....unless,unless,Pak is tamed militarily and economcially,that too by its estranged lover-boy Uncle Sam.

There is a report in a UK paper about the billions in weaponry,arms,rpgs,artillery,body armour,et al,that the US plans to leave behind in Iraq.While itwill still enforce authority over the oil wells,through the use of mercenaries/contract-killers,and some special forces left behind,the dumping of such weaponry is going to destabilise Iraq for decades to come.WQherever the US has in the recent past invaded,intervened-use whatever adjective you want to describe the Yanqui actions meant to "save" lives, in true Orwellian fashion it has left behind myriad monsters to replace the alleged monster it toppled,who in retrospect,was a lesser evil than the state of Iraq,or Libya today.

It takes just a squad of commandos and their personal wepaonry ,the likes of those who attacked Bombay on 26/11 ,to cause mayhem in a nation,acts that could lead to open war.In any case, even if Pak loses out on toys from its lover-boy,the Chinsee are ever willing to replace a rutting Yanqui in the bedroom!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Anindya » 28 Sep 2011 10:58

Completely unnecessary chutzpah....

Pak minister in row over tricolour on official car

MUMBAI: A Pakistani minister, on an official five-day trip, drove to meet Maharashtra chief minister Prithviraj Chavan in an official car that did not have the Indian tricolour. Protocol in India requires a minister from another country to fly the tricolour, along with his or her country's flag, on the official car. The minister's car entered the Vidhan Bhavan premises without the Indian flag


In spite of the fact, these guys are basically here to beg...
The Fahim-led team, which will fly to New Delhi on Wednesday, discussed trade relations with Chavan


Thought they would get away with it...
After electronic media representatives, who were waiting for interaction with the touring delegation, spotted the mistake, a hasty attempt was made to rectify it. But it too backfired. The Indian flag was inadvertently placed upside down initially. Electronic media representatives captured visuals of the flag in that position, following which the mistake was rectified.


But, from the looks of it - this seems intentional...
The tricolour was on the car when the minister met governor K Sankarnarayanan on Tuesday. The driver said pleas to the team to put up the tricolour on Wednesday were overlooked.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 28 Sep 2011 11:11

US is 'reviewing' whether it should call Haqqani network terrorists or not. This is the equivalent of an Indian 'dossier'. :|
US reviewing to designate Haqqani network as FTO
The US is reviewing whether to designate the entire Haqqani network as a foreign terrorist organisation, even as it has already slapped sanctions against seven of its top leaders, including Badruddin Haqqani who was designated as a global terrorist.

"We are continuing to review whether to designate the entire organisation. Quite a sizeable number of the Haqqani kingpins have been individually designated, but we are continuing to review the issue with regard to the whole organization," the state department spokesperson, Victoria Nuland, told reporters.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Pratyush » 28 Sep 2011 11:14

The term Dosa diplomacy is about to take a whole new meaning.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 28 Sep 2011 11:14

Pakistan wants more fire, but China has commitment issues
The Pakistani military establishment is secretly lobbying for a bilateral defence pact with China. But senior Pakistani officials say there is little hope for an immediate breakthrough as Beijing was cautious about any such pact.

“He put forward Pakistan’s desire formally”, said a senior military official who was privy to the development but requested his name not be mentioned.

However, the Chinese leadership advised Pakistan not to push for an agreement that could put Islamabad and Beijing in trouble with both Washington and New Delhi. A spokesperson for the foreign ministry Tehmina Janjua refused to comment on any bilateral defence pact between China and Pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby parsuram » 28 Sep 2011 11:22

Varoon Shekhar:

While tangential to this thread, no question that thePRCees are constantly and always looking over their shoulders at India. They have a trmendous inferiorority complex when it comes to the Indians. There is record of Mao exploding on being told that Nehru was bitter about the PRCees taking over Tibet. That it was a needless move to show dominance, not the sort of thing to do in newly decolonized Asia. Mao was reported to have said that India, through Buddhism, had excercized intelectual and emotional dominance over China for thousands of years, and that was going to change in the new China. Even earlier, At Bandung & establishment of the Non Aligned Movement, China was relegated to an also ran, infuriating Mao. So yes, China will continue to have an inferiority complex wrt India. They may hide it, or mask it with an overly swaggering superiorority complex (classic response by a person with an inferiority complex, as he over compensate). This hidden chinese inferiority complex towards India goes a long way to explain their relationship to the paki.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 28 Sep 2011 12:20

Pak will retaliate to any US misadventure: Report
Islamabad: Pakistan has informed the US that it will be forced to retaliate if American forces attempt to launch a unilateral strike on the country's tribal belt that the US has said is a safe haven for Taliban elements, according to a media report on Wednesday.

The message was personally delivered by Inter-Services Intelligence powerful chief Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha to CIA head Gen David Petraeus during the former's recent trip to Washington, an official familiar with the development told The Express Tribune newspaper.
The unnamed official said Pasha had informed Petraeus that the "Pakistani people will not tolerate any US misadventure" and the government will be left with no other option but to retaliate if American troops launch a unilateral raid, the report said.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Lalmohan » 28 Sep 2011 12:38

can someone compare the pronouncements in the urdu media on defying america to the english media?
this message is 400% for domestic consumption

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Sep 2011 13:00

Lalmohan wrote:can someone compare the pronouncements in the urdu media on defying america to the english media?
this message is 400% for domestic consumption


Ok how I wish a Paki Agosta sub now fires a excet missile against an American destroyer. We can then export some WKK's to lahore to join the rapes.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby member_19648 » 28 Sep 2011 13:11

The statement from the Obama administration showing retracting steps is strangely similar to what GOI did when the Air Force chief threatened Pakistan with dire consequences should they embark on any misadventure and later which was refuted by AKA. Now, this can be a well orchestrated statement where there is perfect synergy between the Govt. entities, where one is tasked with strong words, and another with damage control but the message rings loud and clear, or it could be really as plain and simple as it seems, one can only speculate.

Coming back to Pakistan, the tough talk is for the Public consumption and appeasement of the Jihadis not to screw the state apparatus, in backchannels, they are running from pillar to post to garner support against any action taken against them. That is why the promise to take actions against Uighur separatists who assume lesser importance than the Haqqanis I guess, and so can be easily sacrificed.

The recent reports suggest that Pakis aren't in a sane state of mind! They are scurrying helter skelter and no one is in control, the terrorists surely have a mind of their own and the state only tries to appease both the US and the terrorists to ensure its safe survival. But how long will it continue to balance on 2 boats, sooner or later it should fall! Maybe will be clear when the next big attack takes place, which IMO will come soon enough when the dust settles on this one!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby kmkraoind » 28 Sep 2011 13:33

Aditya_V wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:can someone compare the pronouncements in the urdu media on defying america to the english media?
this message is 400% for domestic consumption


Ok how I wish a Paki Agosta sub now fires a excet missile against an American destroyer. We can then export some WKK's to lahore to join the rapes.


Do not be surprised if the Exocet missile homes back and hits Agosta sub.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Philip » 28 Sep 2011 13:41

Here is a good take on the plight of the Paki genenrals wiht the US's "seeing the light' on the "road to Kabul"!

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/india/a ... 10927.aspx

Xcpts:
The Plight Of The Generals
September 27, 2011: The United States has stopped "playing the game" of pretending that the Pakistani military does not control or cooperate with Islamic terrorist groups. Senior American commanders have told the public, and in closed meetings with senior American politicians, presented the classified information that proves this Pakistani involvement continues. It's no secret in Pakistan that this connection exists. The military began backing Islamic terrorists in the late 1970s as a way to cure the corruption that was crippling the economy, while also providing a weapon that could defeat India. The corruption is still there and India remains undefeated. In the 1980s, this move to Islamic terrorism became fashionable when the Russians invaded Afghanistan and Pakistan became a base for Afghan "holy warriors" who fought back. When the Russians left in 1989, Pakistan continued to back Islamic terrorist groups in Afghanistan (most famously the Taliban, which the Pakistani army created) and sustained the civil war there. This war was still going on when September 11, 2001 came along. It's still going on today, and it's still being sustained by the Pakistani military. The Afghans are not happy with this, they never have been. Afghans point out that Pakistan has been interfering with Afghan internal affairs since Pakistan was created in 1948. The Afghans want this interference to stop, and have been pressing the U.S. to help.
Now, the U.S. has come to agree with the Afghans. So do many Pakistanis, who are unhappy with the share of the national income the military takes for itself. Pakistanis are also disturbed that this military support of Islamic terrorism has backfired, and now Pakistani civilians are most often the victims. Meanwhile, it's obvious that the military, particularly the officers, live better than the vast majority of Pakistanis. Yet the army has never been able to defeat the Indians, or anyone else for that matter. The Pakistani military has been supporting Islamic terrorists for over 30 years and now some of these radicals are killing Pakistanis. The military denies any responsibility. This has long been a big problem in Pakistan, getting anyone to take responsibility. It always seems to be someone else's fault.

The Pakistani military responds to all this by portraying itself as a victim of Indian and American plots. When all else fail, there is always paranoia and denial. The Pakistani military denies all the American and Afghan accusations and dares the Americans to do something about it. The Americans have told Pakistan that if the Pakistani military does not take down the Haqqani Network, and assume control of North Waziristan (where Haqqani and similar groups have a sanctuary) the Americans would. Pakistani generals responded that American "boots on the ground" would mean war. At this point, the U.S. seems unconcerned about that. It seems to be a question of who blinks first. Will Pakistan finally take control of their military, or allow their generals to drag the country into another war they will lose? This is entirely possible, for Pakistani public opinion portrays Pakistanis as victims of all manner of local and foreign conspiracies. Most Pakistanis refuse to take responsibility for anything, preferring to play the powerless victim. Pakistanis don't like to admit that this attitude is self-defeating. But for most Pakistanis, this victimhood is more comfortable than trying to fix things. Meanwhile, the U.S. has told the Pakistanis that military aid will be reduced and the money transferred to civilian uses. But the U.S. wants more ability to ensure that the aid gets to its intended recipients, rather than being stolen by corrupt officials.

Afghanistan accuses Pakistani intelligence (ISI) of using Haqqani to try and destabilize the Afghan government via terrorist attacks on high-profile targets. Pakistan denies everything. Meanwhile, Pakistan is refusing to honor international arrest warrants for retired ISI officials, accused to responsibility for past support of Islamic terrorism.

Faced with the prospect of losing American aid, or even being at war with America, Pakistani diplomats are seeking a stronger alliance with China. But the Chinese are not willing to offer the amount of aid the U.S. provides, or the degree of military assistance. In the meantime, China is demanding that Pakistan wipe out Islamic terrorists from western China, who have been based in the Pakistani tribal territories for most of the last decade. Pakistan cannot do this, because it would mean invading North Waziristan, a sanctuary for pro-government Islamic terrorist groups.

.......

India continues to make progress against its communist (Maoist) rebellion in eastern India and Pakistani-backed Islamic terrorists in the northwest (Kashmir). Thus India suffers only about 10-20 percent as much violence as does Pakistan (which has one-sixth the population of India.)

September 25, 2011: Afghan diplomats accused Pakistani troops of firing over 300 shells and rockets into Afghanistan during the last five days. The Pakistanis were firing at areas believed to be used by Pakistani Taliban, who fled Pakistan in the last year as the Pakistani army cleared areas north of Waziristan of Taliban fighters. The areas on both sides of the border are inhabited by the same tribes or clans. The Pakistanis want the Americans and Afghans to move troops into that border area, and drive the Pakistani Taliban gunmen back into Pakistan. But American and Afghan troops are occupied elsewhere in Afghanistan hammering the Afghan Taliban and drug gangs. The Afghans don't trust the Pakistanis to actually cooperate if the Afghans send troops to this part of the border. Afghans do not trust Pakistan much at all, and they have good reason not to. The Afghans are more interested in punishing the Pakistani military than going after the Pakistani Taliban. That's what might happen, especially since Pakistan and Afghanistan have never formally agreed to exactly where their common border is.

September 24, 2011: A Pakistani army spokesman admitted that the army maintained contact with the Haqqani Network, but insisted that the army had no operational control over Haqqani. The U.S. insists that it has proof of this control, but does not want to make it public because this would show the Pakistanis exactly how their secret communications have been broken into by the Americans. This would enable the Pakistanis to temporarily improve their communications security and keep some of their operations secret, at least for a while.

September 22, 2011: In Pakistan, police have placed a prominent Sunni Islamic cleric under house arrest to stop him from preaching hate, and violence, against Shia Moslems. This cleric had been released from prison two months ago, after spending 14 years in captivity for leading deadly attacks on Shia. This is a growing problem, because about a quarter of Pakistanis are Shia, and this Sunni radicalism against Shia (encouraged by al Qaeda and most other Sunni groups) has created Shia radicals who fight back. This creates small war zones all over the country. Generally, the Sunni groups are the instigators, but Sunni terror groups are most often allies of the Pakistani military. This situation has become complicated.

September 21, 2011: The U.S. and Pakistan have completed negotiations over how many U.S. troops can serve in Pakistan. The number has been cut in half, to about 150. Most of these are trainers or intelligence specialists. These negotiations were triggered by the May 2nd American raid that killed Osama bin Laden, who had been living in the midst of Pakistani military facilities for over five years. The Pakistani military denied any knowledge of bin Laden's presence. Americans did not believe this.

September 20, 2011: Pakistani nuclear weapons scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan, who has largely escaped punishment for Pakistani selling nuclear secrets, has been releasing documents this year, to insure that the Pakistani government does not bow to foreign pressure and punish him. The latest Khan document details how, in the 1990s, China helped Pakistan learn how to enrich uranium enough so that it could be used in a nuclear weapon. Several months ago, Khan revealed a 1998 letter from a North Korean official that discussing how North Korea paid $3.5 million for nuclear weapons technology in the late 1990s.

In Orakzai, Pakistan (north of Waziristan on the Afghan border), over a hundred Pakistani Taliban, believed to be from Afghan bases, attacked a Pakistani army checkpoint. The Taliban were repulsed, with at least twenty being killed. The army suffered about a dozen casualties. The army has been heavily involved in Orakzai for about a year, seeking to break Taliban control

Dilbu
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 28 Sep 2011 14:22

China supports ‘normalisation’ of Pak-US ties
“We hope Pakistan and US relations will improve and develop which is conducive to regional peace, development and stability,” the Dawn quoted Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei, saying.

“Pakistan is an important country in South Asia, and also at the forefront in the international counter-terrorism campaign. It has made important contribution to multinational fight against terrorisim,” he added.

China had earlier reaffirmed support to Pakistan’s sovereignty, and pledged to work with the country to maintain peace and progress in the region.

Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani met China’s Deputy Premier Meng Jianzhu, and described that country as a close friend.

“A friend of China is Pakistan’s friend, its enemy Pakistan’s enemy and China’s security Pakistan’s security,” Gilani said. :rotfl:

Looks like tarrell than mountain friend is in no mood to stick his neck out to protect TSP. Only Gilani is making absurd statements and embarrassing the chinese.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Lalmohan » 28 Sep 2011 14:35

so mr gila-monster, are you going to summarily execute any uighur birathers on your territory now?
(actually you've already done a few right?)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby sum » 28 Sep 2011 15:27

“A friend of China is Pakistan’s friend, its enemy Pakistan’s enemy and China’s security Pakistan’s security,” Gilani said.

The Pakis really do take their whoring business seriously!!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 28 Sep 2011 15:35

More downhill skiing. Arrey kuch to tay karo.
Pak military denies report on retaliation to US strike
From Rezaul H Laskar Islamabad, Sep 28 (PTI) The Pakistani military today denied a media report that said the Inter-Services Intelligence agency chief had informed the CIA chief that Islamabad would be forced to retaliate if US forces launch a unilateral strike in the country''s tribal belt.A spokesman for the Inter-Service Public Relations contradicted the report published in The Express Tribune daily, saying its contents and remarks attributed to the ISI chief were "factually incorrect and misleading"."Media should refrain from speculative reporting on such sensitive issues related to national security," the spokesman said.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 28 Sep 2011 15:49

India's view on terrorism increasingly being believed: Nirupama Rao
WASHINGTON: India's view on terrorism in the region is increasingly being "believed and subscribed to", Indian Ambassador to the US, Nirupama Rao has said, even as the Obama Administration stepped up pressure on Pakistan to rein-in Haqqani network, which allegedly has links with ISI.

Rao said India has repeatedly said that one can't have segmented approach when it comes to applying pressure on any terrorist groups.

One has to deal with all the groups that threaten peace and stability in the region, she argued.

"India's point of view (on terrorism) is increasingly believed in and subscribed to,"
Rao said here at a panel discussion on India-US Strategic Relations organised jointly by the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry and the Brookings Institute, a Washington-based think-tank. peace and stability in the region, she argued.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby JE Menon » 28 Sep 2011 16:26

Like I said Mr. Magoo was reading from the right script :)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Altair » 28 Sep 2011 16:44

I have raised this concept before and I wish to raise it again. Pakistanis never defect. Historically,In almost all the cultures and civilizations there have been defections which resulted in the collapse of the system. I was told and I agree that Pakistani elite, the Military and Intelligence community enjoy royalty status like no other culture or civilization in History. If the US and India tightens the screw tight enough to make few important people defect, it would start a trend. It will make a difference in saving a few hundred lives,perhaps thousands. Life was very royal and easy for the Generals and Colonels in Pakistan. It must change.
JMT

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby NikhilB » 28 Sep 2011 17:13

parsuram wrote:Varoon Shekhar:

While tangential to this thread, no question that thePRCees are constantly and always looking over their shoulders at India. They have a trmendous inferiorority complex when it comes to the Indians. There is record of Mao exploding on being told that Nehru was bitter about the PRCees taking over Tibet. That it was a needless move to show dominance, not the sort of thing to do in newly decolonized Asia. Mao was reported to have said that India, through Buddhism, had excercized intelectual and emotional dominance over China for thousands of years, and that was going to change in the new China. Even earlier, At Bandung & establishment of the Non Aligned Movement, China was relegated to an also ran, infuriating Mao. So yes, China will continue to have an inferiority complex wrt India. They may hide it, or mask it with an overly swaggering superiorority complex (classic response by a person with an inferiority complex, as he over compensate). This hidden chinese inferiority complex towards India goes a long way to explain their relationship to the paki.


No offence but it looks like I am reading Indian version of a post on deaf and dumb forum - just replace China = India, and India = Pak, and emotional = political for dominance of "thousand years" :(

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 28 Sep 2011 17:15

Pakistan's double-game: treachery or strategy?
"Turns out they are disloyal, deceptive and a danger to the United States," fumed Republican Representative Ted Poe last week. "We pay them to hate us. Now we pay them to bomb us. Let's not pay them at all."

For many in America, Islamabad has been nothing short of perfidious since joining a strategic alliance with Washington 10 years ago: selectively cooperating in the war on extremist violence and taking billions of dollars in aid to do the job, while all the time sheltering and supporting Islamist militant groups that fight NATO troops in Afghanistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 28 Sep 2011 17:19

Pakistan Pleads for TrustFM Khar highlights country's sacrifices while addressing UNGA session.
More than 30‚000 Pakistanis have been killed by “the monster of terrorism” in the past decade‚ Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar said on Sept. 27, appealing for greater international trust in her government’s efforts.

The minister set out Pakistan’s case to the U.N. General Assembly as her government faced U.S. demands that it clamp down on an allegedly Pakistani-based group blamed for an attack on the U.S. embassy in Kabul. “We must demonstrate complete unity in ranks‚ avoid any recrimination‚ build greater trust and more importantly bring about the requisite operational coordination in combating this menace‚” Khar said. “Otherwise only the terrorists will gain.”

AoA.. Mr. Khar has a peechaddi in strategy management. :D

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby gakakkad » 28 Sep 2011 17:53



Ok how I wish a Paki Agosta sub now fires a excet missile against an American destroyer. We can then export some WKK's to lahore to join the rapes.




nah.. they ll join rapes only if rapes are stone-aged by Yindia... Not by Khanland...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby krishnan » 28 Sep 2011 17:57

China wont do much unless india jumps in

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 28 Sep 2011 18:05

"No offence but it looks like I am reading Indian version of a post on deaf and dumb forum - just replace China = India, and India = Pak, and emotional = political for dominance of "thousand years" :( "

But the comparison would be false, no disrespect. Are there at least 3 examples of major industries/services/technologies that Pakistan initiated, and India followed? There are more instances of that when it comes to India-China. Actually, there are some Indians who do not like to see India equated with China either, forget Pakistan. They point out that there are things that China has done to get to its present( admittedly high) level, that can't be done in India, because of India's political system and general ideology/philosophy.

The Indian attention to China has to do with the overall picture involving infrastructure, economic growth and exports, where China is ahead. But not, interestingly, with technology, services, industries, where India very rarely follows China.



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