Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 2011

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Aditya_V
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Sep 2011 12:52

Anujan wrote:Apparently India is dropping objectons to Pakistan's demand for duty free access to EU. Probably that was the reason the Paki trade minister came and dangled the MFN carrot for.


Anther help which will be forgotten and rewarded with a bomb attck.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Philip » 29 Sep 2011 13:07

The tragedy with the US is that Cold War "mentals" in the establishment still hold sufficient sway to defeat new thinking.Even aftre the collapse of the USSR,the drive was to grab the former Warsaw Pact nations into NATO and the EU and staion ABMs in Poland,on the excuse that they were to deter the Iranians who are yet to possess any N-weapons! Similarly,the lust for the clandestine JV relationship with the Pakis against traditional enemies and non-allies,still fascinates these mentals.Decades of working together with despots and military dictatorships has clouded US diplomacy and its strategic vision.It frankly does NOT trust democracies! India is an exasperating nation to most US diplomutts who are used to the rest of the world genuflecting and paying obeisance to Washington,obeying its every wish and in its warped vision,an obstacle against the imposition of the Pax Americana across the globe.

Just take a look at Gen.Bandiocoot's extraordinary remarks,that the Haqqani Group-avowed terrorists,are of "help" to Pak.This is the frankest admission from the architect of Kargil that Pak is a state that employs state terrorism as a strategic weapon.Is this the manner in which a member state of the UN should behave? Is there not a clause in the UN charter against this? When Dawood openly celebrates his son's wedding in Karachi,it is treated as a social occasion with even the GOI and our great "lion" of a PM utterly impotent,unable to even let out a squeak in protest!

The choice rantings and ravings of Pak's great general quoted below make hilarious reading,but if this is what the true leadership of Pak think,the Dear Lord save us!

Xcpts:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... istan.html

Musharraf: Why Haqqani terrorist group can help Pakistan

Pakistan's interests are helped by the support of a feared terrorist group blamed for multiple attacks in neighbouring Afghanistan, former president Pervez Musharraf has suggested.

Mr Musharaff told The Daily Telegraph that it was important for his country to spell out to the world why the Haqqani network was being allowed to operate on its soil.

With the relationship between Washington and Islamabad deteriorating sharply, Adml Mike Mullen, Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, has accused Pakistan’s intelligence services of aiding the Haqqanis during an attack on the American embassy in Kabul.

Mr Musharraf was interviewed at his central London apartment ahead of his plan to return home from exile next spring and re-enter politics. He spoke before Adm Mullen’s comments but after the issue had been raised by Western intelligence analysts.

Asked if Pakistan needed the support of the powerful insurgent family led by Jalaluddin Haqqani and linked to the Taliban, he said: “If I was in government I would certainly be thinking how best to defend Pakistan’s interests.

“Certainly if Afghanistan is being used by India to create an anti-Pakistan Afghanistan, we would like to prevent that.”

He said the Haqqani group was the source of a “terrible” lack of trust and confidence and added: “The United States must understand Pakistan has its own national interest. The United States must accept the compulsions of Pakistan and give assurances.”

He added: “When the coalition talk of leaving in 2014, Pakistan has to really think, what will be the environment and fend for itself against all the exterior pressures, all the exterior manoeuvrings and political manoeuvrings against Pakistan.”

Mr Musharraf said Pakistan must “talk straight” about “what their national interest is viz a viz, why are they not acting against Haqqani in North Waziristan [his stronghold], viz a viz was there any complicity in Osama bin Laden being found in Abbottabad.”

He said that surveys showed 70 per cent of people in Pakistan thought that the killing of bin Laden was a hoax.

Mr Musharraf said firmly that he did not believe in such conspiracy theories but admitted his own brother-in-law had told him: “I have my doubts.”

He dismissed suggestions that the Pakistani military had colluded in hiding bin Laden but said the incident was “most embarrassing and negligence of a shameful order.”

The former president said that if he was in power he believed the Americans would have told him about their plans in advance.

“I’m a straight talker and I accept straight talk and I do straight talk,” he said.

But the relationship between the United States and Pakistan is now “very poor” and suffers from “lack of trust and confidence” with “faults on both sides,” he said.

“The United States doesn’t understand the sensitivities of Pakistan - that the United States is in league with India, that Indians are allowed to do whatever they are doing in Afghanistan.”

He said the distrust was increased by drone attacks, the killing of Osama bin Laden and tensions over Raymond Davis, the CIA agent who shot dead two alleged robbers in Lahore earlier this year.

“Are we some jungle people that you can do anything with? This is the feeling of the people of Pakistan, are we some animal that they are treating us like this? We are a sovereign country and we have our own human rights.”

He said the relationship with Britain was “a little better but not good” adding that the Prime Minister’s comments about Pakistan’s failure to take on terrorism during a visit to India were “very, very negative.”

“Isn’t it naïve that if you are going to India and you are supposed to be a world power? ...From India you are lecturing Pakistan that Pakistan needs to do more on terror. This is terrible, this is not good diplomacy at all. Britain we know to be very good diplomats but this is not good diplomacy.”

Mr Musharraf frankly admitted he had had an almost openly hostile relationship with Afghan president Hamid Karzai.

“As time passed I realised that president Hamid Karzai is playing more in the hands of Indians who were trying to create an anti-Pakistan Afghanistan,” he said.

“These were irritants that kept developing over the years and got converted into almost open hostility.”

Asked if he thought the Taliban would end up ruling Afghanistan again when Britain and the US pull out in three years’ time he offered two possible scenarios, one in which there was “total mayhem” and a “free for all” with “every ethnic group fighting each other.”

On the other hand, if the Taliban managed to unite under one leader, civil war could ensue, he added.

Instead, Mr Musharraf called for “ethnically representative, proportionally balanced, national government” that recognised the strength of the Pashtuns.

But he added that Mullar Omar, the leader of the Taliban, was beyond Pakistani control and described him as “absolutely obstinate and semi-literate and not aware of issues of the world, with very backward, sectarian views.”

The former head of the army has launched the All- Pakistan Muslim League, an attempt to win election for the first time, despite his nine years in power following a military coup in 1999.

He has support in Pakistan, where some drivers have “Bring back the general” signs, but he faces an uphill task as well as criminal charges that he circumvented the constitution.

“I am a person who believes if I try and if I’m failing, I will quit,” he added. “I have no qualms and no ego. I have governed Pakistan for nine years, very successfully and I have no further ambitions, personal ambitions, my ambition is Pakistan.”

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby sum » 29 Sep 2011 13:10

Anujan wrote:Apparently India is dropping objectons to Pakistan's demand for duty free access to EU. Probably that was the reason the Paki trade minister came and dangled the MFN carrot for.

This is being mentioned since last 2-3 months atleast....is it finally happening or again just a rumour floating around?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Lalmohan » 29 Sep 2011 13:14

maybe we're missing a trick, perhaps the pak promise to unkil is more about iran than afghanistan?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby dada » 29 Sep 2011 13:19

"Give a small boy a hammer & he will discover that everything in sight needs pounding !".

Pakistanis were educating & training their little boys to pound outsiders , but they have turned inwards !
Pakistanis are discovering that "externally directed jihad" is easy but "internally directed jihad" is painful as well as bloody !

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Satya_anveshi » 29 Sep 2011 13:23

from a recent aapas ki baat, the old man nazam sethi did a good job deconstructing the implications of this crisis
very briefly:

- strikes on hakkani in Miransha transales to massive civilian casualties as the area is densely populated
- casualties bring immense pressure from people adn from within rank and file of army
- army will divert that public anger against zardari; badmash will gladly pitch in with his helping hand
- zardari will be made scapegoat and thus will begin another military regime

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby rohitvats » 29 Sep 2011 13:25

shiv wrote:Major U.S. Arms Sales and Grants to Pakistan Since 2001
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/pakarms.pdf
Major post-2001 defense supplies provided, or soon to be provided, under FMF include:
! eight P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft and their refurbishment (valued at $474 million, two
delivered);
! about 6,312 TOW anti-armor missiles ($186 million; at least 2,007 delivered);
! more than 5,600 military radio sets ($163 million);
! six AN/TPS-77 surveillance radars ($100 million);
! six C-130E transport aircraft and their refurbishment ($76 million);
! one ex-Oliver Hazard Perry class missile frigate via EDA ($65 million);
! 20 AH-1F Cobra attack helicopters via EDA ($48 million, 12 refurbished and delivered); and
! 121 refurbished TOW missile launchers ($25 million).
Supplies paid for with a mix of Pakistani national funds and FMF include:
! up to 60 Mid-Life Update kits for F-16A/B combat aircraft (valued at $891 million, with $477
million of this in FMF, Pakistan currently plans to purchase 35 such kits); and
! 115 M-109 self-propelled howitzers ($87 million, with $53 million in FMF).
Notable items paid or to be paid for entirely with Pakistani national funds include:
! 18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52 combat aircraft (valued at $1.43 billion; 17 delivered to date);
! F-16 armaments including 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles; 1,450 2,000-pound bombs; 500
JDAM Tail Kits for gravity bombs; and 1,600 Enhanced Paveway laser-guided kits, also for
gravity bombs ($629 million);
! 100 Harpoon anti-ship missiles ($298 million);
! 500 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles ($95 million); <SNIP>


It is TSPA which gets armed to teeth with freeware, get fund to splurge on more arms, hob-nob with Chinese for Missiles and nuclear stuff and we have people asking India to change its 'threatening' posture. Just for example, uncle has transferred more SP Arty to TSPA than what it had earlier...and we're yet to get a single system. TSPA is aiming to get parity with India in terms of three Strike Corps and we have suggestion to reduce the Strike Corps with us. If anything, we need to mechanize the IA on lager scale and convert XII and X Corps into Strike formations.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby RajeshA » 29 Sep 2011 13:27

Ivanev wrote:As for the Pakis, they will surely pay for their deeds one day, afterall everything comes a full circle. They wanted to destabilize Afghanistan for their strategic objective, so that they could have a large playground, now that violence has engulfed the whole of Pakistan and the ripples are felt by Uncle too, the partner in crime. And they keep on crying foul.

In reality it is not the good guys who win every time, it is the guys who wage a better war!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Pratyush » 29 Sep 2011 14:04

Here’s why China won’t take Pakistan’s side in tiff with US

By B Raman

He finishes the article by saying
While strongly supporting Pakistan’s counter-terrorism record – as China did after the US raid that killed Osama bin Laden at his Abbottabad hideout in May – China will avoid giving the impression that it is taking sides with Pakistan in its dispute with the US on the question of action against the Haqqani network.

China will have nothing to gain by justifying Pakistan’s inaction against the Haqqani network. While avoiding any comments public comments on this issue that might be perceived as adverse to Pakistan, China would nudge Pakistan into acting against all terrorist sanctuaries in North Waziristan— whether of Al Qaeda, the Haqqani network or the IMET.


He has not really given any concrete reason as to why the PRC will not support the TSP. Unless the portion in bold is the reason it self. If it is, then the reasoning is quite flawed. As the PRC vetoed the UNSC resolution that would have designated the LET and the JEM as international terrorist organisation. There is nothing that prevents the PRC from vetoing any UNSC resolution that targets the Hackneys. B Raman seems to be discounting that.


The US as it is has not real options when it comes to taking on the Hackneys.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Guddu » 29 Sep 2011 15:10

Reports of 12 rocket strike by NATO in N.Wazoo per Strat.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby member_19648 » 29 Sep 2011 15:50

Guddu wrote:Reports of 12 rocket strike by NATO in N.Wazoo per Strat.


Please post the link or snippets from the news! This is hardly informative.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 29 Sep 2011 15:53

Now there is a more chankian approach to absolve TSP of its involvement.
The Afghan Taliban says it supports Haqqani, not Pakistan
(CNN) -- The Afghan Taliban has rejected U.S. allegations that the Haqqani terrorist network is supported by Pakistan, in an email CNN obtained Wednesday.

"Our bases are not in Pakistan nor do we reside outside of our country in insecure conditions," the email sent to Afghan and Pakistani journalists said. "All military and civilian activities in (Afghanistan) are our own initiatives and our own actions."


The response came less than a week after Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Mike Mullen said that the Haqqani network, which has carried out a number of high-profile terror attacks in the Afghan capital Kabul and elsewhere, acted "as a veritable arm of Pakistan's intelligence."

Jalaluddin Haqqani, the founder of the militant group, "only receives orders from their leader, Mullah Omar," according to the Taliban email that also said the U.S. allegations are "baseless."

Meanwhile, Pakistan continued to deny Mullen's charges.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Sep 2011 16:23

Dilbu wrote:Now there is a more chankian approach to absolve TSP of its involvement.
The Afghan Taliban says it supports Haqqani, not Pakistan
(CNN) -- The Afghan Taliban has rejected U.S. allegations that the Haqqani terrorist network is supported by Pakistan, in an email CNN obtained Wednesday.

"Our bases are not in Pakistan nor do we reside outside of our country in insecure conditions," the email sent to Afghan and Pakistani journalists said. "All military and civilian activities in (Afghanistan) are our own initiatives and our own actions."


The response came less than a week after Chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Mike Mullen said that the Haqqani network, which has carried out a number of high-profile terror attacks in the Afghan capital Kabul and elsewhere, acted "as a veritable arm of Pakistan's intelligence."

Jalaluddin Haqqani, the founder of the militant group, "only receives orders from their leader, Mullah Omar," according to the Taliban email that also said the U.S. allegations are "baseless."

Meanwhile, Pakistan continued to deny Mullen's charges.


They are SUper credible like Maoists in Jungles.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby CRamS » 29 Sep 2011 16:26

Rudradev wrote:
I wonder what the truth is.


RudraJi, its a combination of #1 and #3 IMO. I have no proof, but just a gut feel for why I sense this. US's proxies like MMS and his fan club in India are on board for #1, namely India give up its soverignty over Kashmir. US is quetly working on fence sitting elites in India and their RAPE counterparts in TSP that #3 is good, namely, that quasi independence to Kashmir under US tutelage will unleash piss and proseprity in "South Asia" and turn it into a garden of Eden.

Basically, this notion that India advancing without TSP on board, in other words India becoming successful by doing the right things is a threat to TSP. All the diplomatic gobly gook coming out of US essentially points to this.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby CRamS » 29 Sep 2011 16:35

rohitvats wrote:
It is TSPA which gets armed to teeth with freeware, get fund to splurge on more arms, hob-nob with Chinese for Missiles and nuclear stuff and we have people asking India to change its 'threatening' posture. Just for example, uncle has transferred more SP Arty to TSPA than what it had earlier...and we're yet to get a single system. TSPA is aiming to get parity with India in terms of three Strike Corps and we have suggestion to reduce the Strike Corps with us. If anything, we need to mechanize the IA on lager scale and convert XII and X Corps into Strike formations.


On can empathize with India for not taking more aggressive military action against TSP for its terrorist rovocations. But surely Indian diplomacy has abjectly failed by alloowing the above narrative to stick is it not? There were folks like GuptaJi, DipankarJi etc who mocked me when I said that TSP poses en existential threat to India. Is it not true that India, despite beng the abject victim, allowd itself to pianted itself as the aggressor. Is this because its soothes India's H&D to be viewed as the aggressor? And it suits TSP too, one on one, it can laugh at India and see, jee, we have made you come this, now go the full mile.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Rangudu » 29 Sep 2011 17:34

CRS,

Not now or in 100 years will you find the rest of the world, US included, be 100% in agreement with the types of statements you use regularly on TSP or not using the India card etc. What Shyam Saran is saying is clearly true. The number of people in power in the US, UK etc. who are willing to even consider TSPA's "India threat" bogey today is negligible as compared to 10 years ago. Sure, a Mullen or some think-tanker might feel the need to throw that line in order to satisfy a perceived "balanced" view, there is clearly less policy pressure along those lines.

You live in a black and white world. But the real world is full of shades of grey. Even if TSPA were caught red handed in a future 9/11 type attack, there will be people in US calling for "engagement" or similar nonsense. But the the balance of policies is what matters.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2011 17:44

CRamS wrote: Is it not true that India, despite beng the abject victim, allowd itself to pianted itself as the aggressor. Is this because its soothes India's H&D to be viewed as the aggressor?

Actually CRamS there is merit in this argument. But I have never asked myself (or anyone else) as you have done why India does not play the grievance card that it should. Interesting question and for a change something from you that sets me thinking.

I will try and answer the question off the top of my head by trying to transport myself back mentally to 1947.

In 1947 I think "Indians" felt they had continuity and a segment of Indian Muslims, who were Indians till 13 Aug 1947 felt they had a grievance for which they got a new cuntry, Pakistan. From the outset it was the Pakistanis who had the grievance and anything that stood opposed to Pakistan was an existential threat. Indians saw continuity despite the amputation. Their grievance was not Muslims. The Indian grievance was Brits and they were leaving. So India did not start of with the grievance of an existential threat, but with "hope" to make a new nation.

Later in 1947 the Maharaja of Kashmir asked for a "holding treaty" with India and Pakistan till he decided which way to go. India accepted the holding treaty. Pakistan, on the other hand attacked the state of J&K. Strictly speaking this was not an attack on the newly independent Indian nation state as it was seen then. The Maharaja asked for Indian help and signed the document of accession to India. That made it an India-Pakistan conflict. By the time India regained control of the valley of Kashmir, Nehru had called a halt to the fighting and taken it to the UN. But from the Pakistani viewpoint the Paki mofos had almost taken Srinagar when Indian forces came and whupped their asses and drove them beyond the Kargil mountains. The Phuckistanis were quick off the mark in making this a grievance. It was India that attacked a Kashmir that they had occupied.

So by January 1948 or so India had already lost the plot. It was already Indian aggression and India being an existential threat to the Pakis. Not the other way round.

In 1965, the Pakistanis launched their infiltration bid into Kashmir. This was the one time when India could have played the grievance card, but I think it was too late by then. Pakistan was already an "ally" of the US and India was already branded a socialist Soviet sympathizer nation by a USA that had lost Korea and was in the thick of war in Vietnam. With Indira Gandhi being hated by Nixon and the most allied whore Pakistan being split in 1971 - there was no question of India playing a victim card.

The rest is history. No amount of terrorism against India was considered as enough to declare that India was a victim of any kind no matter how much we howled and howl we did. I blame this squarely on the karma of the age where the US happened to be the foremost power through the 1960s to the 1990s, it had the worlds biggest media apparatus and what the US said the world believed, and the USA did not give a fig for India. India finally started looking like it was a victime only after 26/11, long after the US itself played the victim card of 9-11.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 29 Sep 2011 18:08

"From the outset it was the Pakistanis who had the grievance and anything that stood opposed to Pakistan was an existential threat. Indians saw continuity despite the amputation. Their grievance was not Muslims. The Indian grievance was Brits.."

I wasn't around in the 50's( or 60's) but how strongly did Indian spokesmen( at the UN or in diplomatic and media circles) in the immediate post-independence era refer to the horrific tragedy of partition and the pernicious ideology of the Moslem League, with British backing, in achieving it? I suspect-pure conjecture here- that they were not succinct, forceful, quick witted and to the point in elucidating and denouncing the ideology and behaviour that made partition inevitable. Nor the subtle British role in the disaster. Being overly diplomatic or displaying the affected manners and airs of the upper class was not the way to go about countering the detestable ideology and behaviour of the Moslem League/Pakistan or their British backers.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Agnimitra » 29 Sep 2011 18:30

Pentagon aims at target Pakistan
Also this week, the Pakistani army engaged in joint exercises in the Punjab with forces from "Pakistan's special friend" Saudi Arabia. With special friends like Beijing and Riyadh to compensate for lost military equipment or revenue, no wonder Pakistan's generals are not exactly mired in desperation.

Yet Washington is desperate, feeling the urge to do something. So what to expect from now on?

Expect a festival of MQ-9 Reapers droning North Waziristan to death. What US President Barack Obama calls a tool of "unique capabilities", for Pashtun farmers is a weapon of terror.

Expect strike after strike conducted out of a control room in Nellis air force base in Nevada.

Expect an array of strategic missile bombings with spectacular collateral damage.

Expect more Joint Special Operations Command-ordered special operations forces "kill/capture" raids.

Expect a new, humongous Joint Prioritized Effects List, just like in Afghanistan; no names, just a list of mobile or satellite phone numbers. If your mobile gets on the list by mistake, you'll be snuffed the Hellfire way.

Expect deadly, eternal Pashtun vengeance against Americans to be as irreversible as death and taxes.

And most of all, expect a low intensity war to turn volcanic anytime.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2011 18:33

Varoon Shekhar wrote:"From the outset it was the Pakistanis who had the grievance and anything that stood opposed to Pakistan was an existential threat. Indians saw continuity despite the amputation. Their grievance was not Muslims. The Indian grievance was Brits.."

I wasn't around in the 50's( or 60's) but how strongly did Indian spokesmen( at the UN or in diplomatic and media circles) in the immediate post-independence era refer to the horrific tragedy of partition and the pernicious ideology of the Moslem League, with British backing, in achieving it? I suspect-pure conjecture here- that they were not succinct, forceful, quick witted and to the point in elucidating and denouncing the ideology and behaviour that made partition inevitable. Nor the subtle British role in the disaster. Being overly diplomatic or displaying the affected manners and airs of the upper class was not the way to go about countering the detestable ideology and behaviour of the Moslem League/Pakistan or their British backers.

One does not have to have been alive during all historic periods to know history. You should look at Gurcharan Das's "India Unbound". He makes an interesting point when he says that it was Gandhi who took India's freedom struggle out of elite living rooms of India where it existed as a dinner conversation piece and made it into the struggle of every person in India. The idea of independence before that came only to the elite who were educated by the British in liberal arts and who developed a the "We have been made Jackasses" cognitive dissonance of people who read about and empathized with the sentiment of the French Revolution and realisd that the Brits were not applying the same values to them.

In a sense it is easy now with millions of Indian educated thinking Indians to look back at that era and ask why they did not do something. But in that era there were very few educated Indians and most were brown British gentlemen. That continued after independence and British perfidy which is so well recognized now was not even documented at the time. That was an era when India was still getting its constitution and shape (accession by Princely states) and settlement of refugees If you ask my view, Indian leaders just carried on with the task of "healing" a wounded nation that became independent rather than :fighting for a place" in the world. The Pakistani elite were not into the business of building or healing. They had a new nation and werr fighting for a place in the world - getting recognition and telling others "We exist". Evryone knew India. The Paki elite did a great job of letting everyone find out that there was a Pakistan too and that it was going to go under because of Hindoos.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby vishvak » 29 Sep 2011 18:37

CRamS wrote:There were folks like GuptaJi, DipankarJi etc who mocked me when I said that TSP poses en existential threat to India. Is it not true that India, despite beng the abject victim, allowd itself to pianted itself as the aggressor. Is this because its soothes India's H&D to be viewed as the aggressor? And it suits TSP too, one on one, it can laugh at India and see, jee, we have made you come this, now go the full mile.

The UN is full of paki backers - USA, Europe, OIC, China, etc. and then these countries' allies/friends. Pakis could be a failed state already but for the support of the same countries that paint India as aggressor; not to mention the media inside India, again funded by the same countries.

How many countries in the whole world effectively live by ideals like Sarva-Dharma-Sama-Bhava etc.? Other than a few, it is all a show of civility in UN that conveniently hides all this.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 29 Sep 2011 19:00

"The Paki elite did a great job of letting everyone find out that there was a Pakistan too and that it was going to go under because of Hindoos."

This is absolutely correct, but it raises a troubling question. Where were all the liberals and humanists and secularists in the West( whether the US, UK, France et al) who would stop and think, wait a minute, castigating an entire people or religion is repellent and unacceptable. You can't do it in the US, UK or France, and you can't do it in Pakistan. Constantly raising the "Islam in danger, Pakistan in danger from the Hindus'' is obnoxious and condemnable, and it's not an ideology or stance that can be supported. If this ideology was indeed accepted if not supported by powerful elements in the West, as opposed to the "West" as a whole, then those elements must be condemned in the strongest terms.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Sushupti » 29 Sep 2011 19:08

Pakistan banks to open branches in India?

NEW DELHI: India is considering to allow, in its territory Pakistani banks and the neighbouring country is set to reciprocate for stregthening bilateral trade.
A common view was expressed by commerce ministers of the two countries at a FICCI meeting here today.
"The Reserve Bank of India and State Bank of Pakistan have already discussed this matter and will take the next step," Commerce and Industry Minister Anand Sharma said.
Sharma, who held official level talks with Pakistan Commerce Minister Makhdoom Amin Fahim yesterday, said "When we are going to encourage trade and investment, not only customs check posts but banks are also essential."
Making a similar comment, Fahim said,"Both countries are now poised to open bank branches and land routes."
He said the "atmosphere of fear and apprehension has reduced considerably" and the businessmen in both the countries have started to "believe their governments".
Later at an Assocham meeting, Fahim said the two nations owe it to the future generations to iron out differences and move forward. Happy over the response he received in India in the last four days, Fahim said,"if we are taking one step, your people are taking two steps".
Assocham President Dilip Modi announced that the chamber would be sending a high-level business delegation to Pakistan in November. It will comprise honchos like K P Singh of DLF, Sajjan Jindal of JSW Steel and Analjit Singh of Max group.
Earlier, Sharma said the two governments would try and resolve visa related problems of businessmen. Bilateral trade is set to rise to USD 6 bn in 3 years from USD 2.7 bn.
Fahim informed Sharma that Pakistan recognises that grant of the Most Favoured Nation (MFN) status to India would be key in expanding bilateral ties.

http://expressbuzz.com/finance/pakistan ... v0.twitter

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 29 Sep 2011 19:13

"Pakis could be a failed state already but for the support of the same countries that paint India as aggressor;"

What's "threatening" Pakistan is the example of a neighbouring developing country with democracy, civilian control, secularism, pluralism, linguistic and ethnic diversity evolving and progressing. Again, Indian spokesmen are not succinctly and forcefully putting this idea across.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Lalmohan » 29 Sep 2011 19:13

they didn't play the religion card till later, initially they played the anti-communist vs. socialist (crypto communist) card

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby RajeshA » 29 Sep 2011 19:14

Oh that way, Pakistan can transfer funds more easily to terrorists in India! Yippie!!!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Joseph » 29 Sep 2011 19:19

...and spread the counterfeit faster.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby negi » 29 Sep 2011 19:23

So we whine and wail about Unkil's aid to TSP and on the other hand edit in 10 janpath have decided to increase trade with TSP. I mean seriously how can anyone serious about doing business and making money invest anything in that $hithole; it might go up in smoke anytime.
Last edited by archan on 29 Sep 2011 19:59, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: do not use expletives in your posts, even in abbreviated form. Thanks.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby BijuShet » 29 Sep 2011 19:56

From Tribune news story (posting in full). The water in the pot is now simmering. Will the frog jump or stay?
More US military action in Pakistan possible: Graham
By Reuters - Published: September 29, 2011

Senior Republican US senator says US may go beyond drone strikes, did not advocate sending US troops into Pakistan. PHOTO: AFP/FILE

ISLAMABAD/ WASHINGTON: Support is growing in the US Congress for expanding American military action in Pakistan beyond drone strikes already used to target militants in Pakistani territory, a senior Republican US senator says.

The comments by Senator Lindsey Graham, an influential Republican voice on foreign policy and military affairs, follow remarks by the top US military officer, Admiral Mike Mullen, accusing Pakistan last week of supporting the militant Haqqani network’s September 13 attack on the US Embassy in Kabul.

(Read more: I have been Pakistan’s best friend, says Mullen)

With growing calls for a tougher stance on militants accused of such high-profile attacks, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Wednesday that Washington was closer to deciding whether to label the Haqqanis a terrorist group.

The United States has long pressed Pakistan to pursue the Haqqani network, one of the most lethal Taliban-allied Afghan groups fighting Western forces in Afghanistan.

The Pakistan-based Haqqani network has been in the spotlight since US officials accused it of mounting this month’s attack on the US Embassy in Kabul with the support of Pakistan’s powerful military spy agency.

Graham said in an interview on Tuesday that US lawmakers might support military options beyond drone strikes that have been going on for years inside Pakistani territory.

Those options may include using US bomber planes within Pakistan. The South Carolina Republican said he did not advocate sending US ground troops into Pakistan.

“I would say when it comes to defending American troops, you don’t want to limit yourself,” Graham said. “This is not a boots-on-the-ground engagement — I’m not talking about that, but we have a lot of assets beyond drones.

“A perfect world … would be Afghan, Pakistan and (US and NATO) coalition forces working jointly on both sides of border to deny safe havens, inside of Afghanistan and on the other side,” in Pakistan’s western tribal regions from which the Haqqani network and other militants are believed to operate, Graham said.

Graham said US lawmakers will think about stepping up the military pressure. “If people believe it’s gotten to the point that that is the only way really to protect our interests, I think there would be a lot of support,” he said.

Safe haven?

The Haqqani network is allied with Afghanistan’s Taliban and is believed to have close links to al Qaeda. It fights US and NATO forces in eastern Afghanistan, operating out of bases in Pakistan’s North Waziristan.

“We are in the final, formal review that has to be undertaken to make a government-wide decision to designate the network as a foreign terrorist organization,” Clinton said in an appearance with Egypt’s visiting foreign minister.

Clinton said Washington already had placed a number of leaders of the Haqqani network on its terrorism blacklist. “We’re going to continue to struggle against terrorism and in particular against those who have taken up safe havens inside Pakistan, and we’re going to continue to work with our Pakistani counterparts to try and root them out,” she said.

A move to name the Haqqanis as a terrorist group would bar US citizens from providing support to the group and freeze any assets it might have in the United States — a symbolic step that might relieve some of the mounting US political pressure to take a harder line with Pakistan.

Pakistan denies it supports the Haqqanis and says its army is too busy battling its own Taliban insurgency to go after the network, which is estimated to have 10,000 to 15,000 fighters. Some analysts have speculated that the State Department has not yet taken that formal step in hopes the Haqqanis could be reconciled as part of Afghan peace talks between the government and insurgents.

Any such talks now seem unlikely at best. US drone aircraft in recent years have targeted mostly al Qaeda figures rather than Haqqani militants. Increased US military action on Pakistani soil, including the idea of US soldiers crossing the porous border from Afghanistan, would be deeply unpopular in Pakistan. Pakistan viewed the US military raid in May that killed al Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden as a grievous breach of its sovereignty.

The tense ties between Pakistan and the United States worsened last week after Mullen, the chairman of the U.S. military’s Joint Chiefs of Staff, described the Haqqani network as a “veritable arm” of Pakistan’s ISI spy agency.

Graham, known as a hawk, said on Sunday that the United States must consider all options “including defending our troops” in confronting Pakistani support for militant networks active in Afghanistan.

Such remarks from the US Congress, where patience has worn thin with Pakistan, have intensified speculation that the United States might resort to another cross-border raid such as the one that killed bin Laden, intensify drone attacks in Pakistan’s lawless tribal regions or send in bomber planes to attack militant hide-outs.

Lawmakers are proposing to restrict US aid with stricter conditions under which Pakistan, which possesses nuclear arms but is desperately poor, can access US military and economic assistance. The unusually public criticism from Washington has provoked anger among Pakistani leaders who warn that the United States may lose a key ally in an unstable region.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby BijuShet » 29 Sep 2011 19:58

From Tribune news story (posting in full). A wind flows from TSP's Musharraf.
The United States is in league with India: Musharraf
Published: September 29, 2011

Musharraf says Pakistan must 'talk straight' about its national interest. PHOTO: AFP/FILE

Former president Pervez Musharraf has said that Pakistan has its national interest at heart, and that the US should understand and accept that.

He said this in an interview to The Telegraph on Wednesday.

He also said that the ties between US and Pakistan and on a downward spiral and suffer from “lack of trust and confidence with faults on both sides”.


“Pakistan has to really think, what will be the environment and fend for itself against all the exterior pressures, all the exterior manoeuvrings and political manoeuvrings against Pakistan.”

Musharraf said that Pakistan must keep its stance clear as to why they are not acting against the Haqqani network and “talk straight” about its national interest.

He also remarked that “the United States is in league with India and that Indians are allowed to do whatever they are doing in Afghanistan”.


“Are we some jungle people that you can do anything with? This is the feeling of the people of Pakistan, are we some animal that they are treating us like this? We are a sovereign country and we have our own human rights.”
Musharraf also disclosed that he had an “almost” openly hostile relationship with the President of Afghanistan Hamid Karzai.


“As time passed I realised that president Hamid Karzai is playing more in the hands of Indians who were trying to create an anti-Pakistan Afghanistan. These were irritants that kept developing over the years and got converted into almost open hostility.”
Former president, who is currently in self-exile, spoke about his return to Pakistan.


“I am a person who believes if I try and if I’m failing, I will quit,” he added. “I have no qualms and no ego. I have governed Pakistan for nine years, very successfully and I have no further ambitions, personal ambitions, my ambition is Pakistan.”
Earlier, Musharraf had announced that he will return to Pakistan to contest the next elections.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Manny » 29 Sep 2011 20:00

negi wrote:So we whine and wail about Unkil's aid to TSP and on the other hand Mchods in 10 janpath have decided to increase trade with TSP. I mean seriously how can anyone serious about doing business and making money invest anything in that $hithole; it might go up in smoke anytime.


Isn't it amazing.

There are some clueless and IMO evil and immoral people in India, who wants to be the "good guys" in the eyes of Pakistanis , but expects the US to be the bad guys. They are cowards who expects others to do their dirty work for them.
Last edited by Manny on 29 Sep 2011 21:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby ramana » 29 Sep 2011 20:15

Venkarl wrote:
ramana wrote:Still cant take away the Paki fear!


The only way to get rid of that "Fear" is by "Submission" :mrgreen: what say Paklurks?



Once Unkil says to TSP they are not going to entertain any support ofr TSP adventures against India, TSP will get realistic and start living in its territory. The TSPA acts as the kabila guards on temporary location in TSP and waiting to move back to original stomping grounds of Hindustan. Hence the constant point it to India as a threat. Why would India threaten them if they were peaceful and settled in their own lands?

Look at the reduction of Indian armed forces after Independence to a small 350K level. It was the PRC invasion in 1962 followed by TSP in 1965 that led to the armed force expansion. After that TSP regualry ups the ante to seek baksheesh from US. Even when US is close to bankrupcy thye want to give $1B baksheesh to TSP! Shows their priorities in keeping TSP viable.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby merlin » 29 Sep 2011 20:42

ramana wrote:Even when US is close to bankrupcy thye want to give $1B baksheesh to TSP! Shows their priorities in keeping TSP viable.


Speaks volumes on the extent the US will go to hobble India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Sep 2011 20:52

Consider US is playing bad cop to India's good cop.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Sep 2011 20:55

In narratives where no one is paying attention (India-Pakistan were not very important) the larger party by default is the aggressor.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Altair » 29 Sep 2011 20:57

Manny wrote: This is like many desies who would not clean their own shiit but expects others to do it for them.

In your own self interest please consider editing the post.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby sum » 29 Sep 2011 21:21

A common view was expressed by commerce ministers of the two countries at a FICCI meeting here today.
"The Reserve Bank of India and State Bank of Pakistan have already discussed this matter and will take the next step," Commerce and Industry Minister Anand Sharma said.

Am sure some Chankian spin will be ascribed to this in this dhaaga itself.. :roll: :-?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby sum » 29 Sep 2011 21:26

Also this week, the Pakistani army engaged in joint exercises in the Punjab with forces from "Pakistan's special friend" Saudi Arabia. With special friends like Beijing and Riyadh to compensate for lost military equipment or revenue, no wonder Pakistan's generals are not exactly mired in desperation.

Is everyone and their uncle exercising along the Punjab border with Desh?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Rangudu » 29 Sep 2011 21:30

Looks like Nawaz Sharif gave some takleef to Kayani and Pasha by interrupting their BS presentation at the All Parties Tamasha in TSP today. Sharif apparently asked Pasha why the whole world is pointing at us if ISI is not supporting the Haqqanis - "no smoke without fire" etc. Expect some Nawaz Sharif bashing soon.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby sum » 29 Sep 2011 21:38

^^ Errr, why is Nawaz being made to look like the good guy here?
He is the No.1 fundoo Islamists who will ensure that Haqqanis personally come and stay at his house for safety...


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