Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 2011

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Rangudu » 29 Sep 2011 21:41

^^Not true at all. In fact it's the opposite. Nawaz fears and hates TSPA most because of his past dealings. His party and political base may be Pakjabi jihadi types but if you read his comments, especially in the last few years - he knows that TSPA's game is ruining his country. He is a bania type at heart and at the moment he's the only one with enough clout and "Street cred" to openly call out TSPA.

One small nugget - in the days post-26/11, when ISI was busy trying to round up Kasab's family and obliterate any trace of his past, it was Nawaz Sharif that used his contacts to send Western journalists to the right village and get them connected to people who would talk (even if it was off the record).

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby sum » 29 Sep 2011 21:46

^^Not true at all. In fact it's the opposite. Nawaz fears and hates TSPA most because of his past dealings. His party and political base may be Pakjabi jihadi types but if you read his comments, especially in the last few years - he knows that TSPA's game is ruining his country. He is a bania type at heart and at the moment he's the only one with enough clout and "Street cred" to openly call out TSPA.

Ok...Thanks for that nugget.
but guess from Indian PoV, TSPA and Nawaz might turn out to be the same since everyone anyways unite when it comes to India ( esp hurting India).

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2011 21:49

Sushupti wrote:
Pakistan banks to open branches in India?


http://expressbuzz.com/finance/pakistan ... v0.twitter


Well I've always wanted a Bank of Pakistan VIJA Credit Card where someone in the US will pay the bills.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 29 Sep 2011 21:58

Mr. Khar wants gubo to be done with H&D in tact.
Pakistan won't allow compromise on dignity: Khar
“We have strong reservations against a statement of this type, which was made by a person who is representing a country with which we have had many (counterterrorism) successes,” she told National Public Radio. Khar was in the US to attend the UN General Assembly.സ്ജ്സ്സ്

She called for understanding that the “dignity of any sovereign state must be respected. You don’t want to give Pakistanis the message that their lives are any less important than yours. That is a wrong message to give”.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Altair » 29 Sep 2011 21:59

Pakistan banks to open branches in India?
http://expressbuzz.com/finance/pakistan ... v0.twitter


The marketing thought might be to service people in India who have their spouse family in Pakistan. The number must be quite high, I guess. Otherwise, they might as well name the Bank as "Dawood Ibrahim Bank of Credit & Commerce International". Atleast saves the trouble.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 29 Sep 2011 22:00


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Rangudu » 29 Sep 2011 22:01

sum wrote:but guess from Indian PoV, TSPA and Nawaz might turn out to be the same since everyone anyways unite when it comes to India ( esp hurting India).


Not necessarily. For TSP to change the only hope is that it comes from a Pakjabi. That's extremely unlikely but someone like a Nawaz Sharif may fit the role. This is why TSPA/ISI will never allow him to come to power. Heck, if Nawaz wasn't around, Zardari would have been toast months ago. It is TSPA's fear of Nawaz's clout in Pakjab that has forced them to tolerate Zardari. If there isn't a coup or a quasi-coup in the near term, Nawaz faces a risk of being Benazir-ized.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby surinder » 29 Sep 2011 22:02

shiv wrote:You should look at Gurcharan Das's "India Unbound". He makes an interesting point when he says that it was Gandhi who took India's freedom struggle out of elite living rooms of India where it existed as a dinner conversation piece and made it into the struggle of every person in India. The idea of independence before that came only to the elite who were educated by the British in liberal arts and who developed a the "We have been made Jackasses" cognitive dissonance of people who read about and empathized with the sentiment of the French Revolution and realisd that the Brits were not applying the same values to them.


Really? Gurcharan needs to understand history before he writes about it.

Gurcahran should think before he merely re-iterating the convenient INC narrative.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Dilbu » 29 Sep 2011 22:04

Pakistan closes Afghan border crossing after blast
Pakistan on Thursday closed a border crossing with Afghanistan used by NATO forces after a bomb hit an oil tanker, regional media said, citing government sources.
Police officer Mohammad Tayab said the Chaman crossing was closed "for security reasons" after a blast killed a bomb disposal expert who was attempted to defuse a explosive device attached to an oil tanker, the Dawn News TV channel reported.
Taliban insurgents often attack Afghan-bound NATO convoys, but Pakistan does not usually close the border crossings, the TV channel said.
Pakistani political experts said the shut-down may be linked to recent Pakistani-U.S. rows.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Rangudu » 29 Sep 2011 22:16

Ruh-roh

Obama, Uzbek leader discuss Afghan supply route

We're going to probably replace 50 percent of what we ship into Afghanistan from Pakistan, will go through the northern route, Uzbekistan," Senator Lindsey Graham, who is on the committee, told Reuters this week.

"I expect a major breakthrough between us and the Uzbeks in terms of ground and air access," Graham said.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby member_19686 » 29 Sep 2011 22:20

shiv wrote:One does not have to have been alive during all historic periods to know history. You should look at Gurcharan Das's "India Unbound". He makes an interesting point when he says that it was Gandhi who took India's freedom struggle out of elite living rooms of India where it existed as a dinner conversation piece and made it into the struggle of every person in India. The idea of independence before that came only to the elite who were educated by the British in liberal arts and who developed a the "We have been made Jackasses" cognitive dissonance of people who read about and empathized with the sentiment of the French Revolution and realisd that the Brits were not applying the same values to them.

When Author credits gandhi with initiative of converting the Independance Struggle to a mass popular movement - he only repeats a myth created in last several decades by Pseudo-Gandhians making Gandhi our National Idol. Was Bal Gangadhara Tilak any less popular? Much before Gandhi appeared, Tilak had already taken the movement to the masses. Same was the case with Lala Lajpat Rai whose popularity had created a solid network of patriotic groups in all towns and cities in North and West India.

Under whose leadership was the 1905 Partition of Bengal defeated?
Visionary Bipin Chandra Pal was opposed to congress taking up Khilafat. He later recorded in his Memories of My Life and Times, how he dreaded the “virus of pan-Islamism among the Indian Moslems” which Khilafat would invariably affect. In his 1921 presidential address, which was to be his last, Bipin Chandra Pal warned Gandhi against preferring hocus-pocus emotionalism over hard reasoning with his acidic speech, “you want to do magic while I try to give you logic.” (Bipin Chandra lived for another decade, but the rise in Central politics of Gandhi, and in Bengal of Deshbandhu Das and Bose brothers, practically elbowed out this visionary Hindu and hardliner of Lal-Bal-Pal fame, out of politics. He left Congress at this time, and died in 1932 in condition of abject poverty, refusing to accept help from his wealthy comrade Lajpat Rai. A true genius, one only needs to read his works to understand the depth of his understanding of Moslem question. It was the leaders like Pal and Lajpat Rai who could have won an Akhanda Swaraj, if such a thing was ever possible. It was largely under Pal’s influential leadership that Bengali Hindus defeated the Bengal partition of 1905. And today, while Bose brothers and Chittaranjan Das share between themselves a majority of prominent landmarks, roads, and establishments of Bengal to their name, Bipin Chandra Pal seems to have been almost deleted from the Bengali memory. We shall try to dedicate a separate exploration of Pal’s thought and work later. For now, let us return to Khilafat, Deshabandhu, and his deputy Subhas Bose.)

http://bharatendu.wordpress.com/2011/02 ... ndra-bose/

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby jaibhim » 29 Sep 2011 22:20

http://tribune.com.pk/story/262385/indi ... -pakistan/

This is what happens when treason happens. Has the government thought through the consequences including disappearing people, a future projection made in BR[ some more modelling could be done using tools such as game theory] of what will happen if a trickle begins to increase, as the situation worsens, terror attacks, stoking and opening up old wounds to open up chances of disintegration and hence the ghazawae hind; a passionate dream of the land of the pure, allowing wahabi poison in, the cashemere sweater, tsp's old favourites including dakhan[where a teary eyed zaid wants to plant the flag of the pure] which has so many exponents in youtube[one of the useful barometers of terror including maulana azhar].

This is shocking news, that ought to be gulped anyway because there is no other choice but to suffer. Instead of making use of opportunities, now as BR predicted the WKK and its worms including old Partition trauma sufferers the PM[this class should never be given the reins of power] and Mr.Nayyer will rally to the defence of their biradari. What is worse is that 50 locomotives are being given in very liberal terms immediately on hearing the SOS call which is a mystery when china was always there and their locomotives ran like formula one cars and so on and still the abuse on India and the integrity of India continues :(
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2011 22:24

surinder wrote:
shiv wrote:You should look at Gurcharan Das's "India Unbound". He makes an interesting point when he says that it was Gandhi who took India's freedom struggle out of elite living rooms of India where it existed as a dinner conversation piece and made it into the struggle of every person in India. The idea of independence before that came only to the elite who were educated by the British in liberal arts and who developed a the "We have been made Jackasses" cognitive dissonance of people who read about and empathized with the sentiment of the French Revolution and realisd that the Brits were not applying the same values to them.


Really? Gurcharan needs to understand history before he writes about it.

Gurcahran should think before he merely re-iterating the convenient INC narrative.


Will respond after many weeks by which time I expect to have finished reading the book The first 25 pages are excellent. Das writes from a autobiographical viewpoint and history can be seen differently by different people. Das's famly circumstances seem to have been somewhat like those of my own ancestral family and his narrative is very familiar. But he shows no sympathy for Nehru so I need to read more to see if I would agree with your partisan comment.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 29 Sep 2011 22:33

Surasena wrote:When Author credits gandhi with initiative of converting the Independance Struggle to a mass popular movement - he only repeats a myth created in last several decades by Pseudo-Gandhians making Gandhi our National Idol. Was Bal Gangadhara Tilak any less popular? Much before Gandhi appeared, Tilak had already taken the movement to the masses. Same was the case with Lala Lajpat Rai whose popularity had created a solid network of patriotic groups in all towns and cities in North and West India.


I am in no position to argue for or against Das's statement. I am only quoting Das. Das does not seem to have set out to write a history book. It seems to be a personal narrative. Jinnah and Maududi too had personal narratives and quoting those narratives should not lead to the conclusion that history is being rewritten. The last word on Indian history is yet to be written, but that last word can come only from mulitple narratives. Das's narrative is just one of them. It is his experience that his own father along with the likes of Nehru were British educated living room nationalists from an upper caste background and it was Gandhi who corrected their ineffective methods. That is not to say that no one else was involved. Why make on man's narrative into a chip on another person's shoulder when no insult or slight is intended?

I had earlier on BRF quoted he autobiographical narrative of a distant ancestor of my wife who was a Madhwa brahmin of a subsect who would fight with non Madhwas and Madhwas of other sub sects and would not touch the football they were playing with if a Muslim touched it. All this changed after Gandhi visited his village in South India. In this man's narrative Gandhi changed his attitude. But if he says that he should not be considered as insulting Lala Lajpat Rai or Tilak. That is totally absurd. How politically correct can an autobiography be? :roll:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby BijuShet » 29 Sep 2011 22:45

From Yahoo breaking news(posting in full)
Seventh man charged over UK terror offences
AFP – 33 mins ago...

A seventh man has been charged with terror offences following a major operation in the city of Birmingham, police said Thursday.

Mujahid Hussain, 20, will appear in court in London on Friday charged with entering into a funding arrangement for the purposes of terrorism, and having information about terrorism between July and September this year.

"A 20-year-old man from Birmingham has this afternoon been charged with terrorism fundraising and with failing to disclose information," said a statement from West Midlands police.

Six men appeared in court on Monday charged with a string of terror offences, including an alleged suicide bombing plot, and were remanded in custody until next month.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby A_Gupta » 29 Sep 2011 22:53

surinder wrote:
shiv wrote:You should look at Gurcharan Das's "India Unbound". He makes an interesting point when he says that it was Gandhi who took India's freedom struggle out of elite living rooms of India where it existed as a dinner conversation piece and made it into the struggle of every person in India. The idea of independence before that came only to the elite who were educated by the British in liberal arts and who developed a the "We have been made Jackasses" cognitive dissonance of people who read about and empathized with the sentiment of the French Revolution and realisd that the Brits were not applying the same values to them.


Really? Gurcharan needs to understand history before he writes about it.

Gurcahran should think before he merely re-iterating the convenient INC narrative.


Whether it was Gandhi or Tilak or a set of leaders, the fact remains that there was a transformation over the late-19th and early 20th century, where political engagement of the masses was deepened. (IMO, fighting to restore the Mughal Emperor is only somewhat weakly as an a independence movement.)

To contrast, the Muslim League tried to become a mass movement only after 1937, and that by raising the slogan of "Islam in Danger".
Last edited by A_Gupta on 29 Sep 2011 22:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby member_19686 » 29 Sep 2011 22:54

shiv wrote:
Surasena wrote:When Author credits gandhi with initiative of converting the Independance Struggle to a mass popular movement - he only repeats a myth created in last several decades by Pseudo-Gandhians making Gandhi our National Idol. Was Bal Gangadhara Tilak any less popular? Much before Gandhi appeared, Tilak had already taken the movement to the masses. Same was the case with Lala Lajpat Rai whose popularity had created a solid network of patriotic groups in all towns and cities in North and West India.


I am in no position to argue for or against Das's statement. I am only quoting Das. Das does not seem to have set out to write a history book. It seems to be a personal narrative. Jinnah and Maududi too had personal narratives and quoting those narratives should not lead to the conclusion that history is being rewritten. The last word on Indian history is yet to be written, but that last word can come only from mulitple narratives. Das's narrative is just one of them. It is his experience that his own father along with the likes of Nehru were British educated living room nationalists from an upper caste background and it was Gandhi who corrected their ineffective methods. That is not to say that no one else was involved. Why make on man's narrative into a chip on another person's shoulder when no insult or slight is intended?

I had earlier on BRF quoted he autobiographical narrative of a distant ancestor of my wife who was a Madhwa brahmin of a subsect who would fight with non Madhwas and Madhwas of other sub sects and would not touch the football they were playing with if a Muslim touched it. All this changed after Gandhi visited his village in South India. In this man's narrative Gandhi changed his attitude. But if he says that he should not be considered as insulting Lala Lajpat Rai or Tilak. That is totally absurd. How politically correct can an autobiography be? :roll:

We have enough bullsh*t hagiographies glorifying Gandhi & his shishyas, how about a little more credit for the others?

And where did I say he was "insulting" the others?

I only pointed out that both of them along with Bipin Pal took the movement to the masses long before Gandhi was on the scene.

Personal experiences can't be the basis for making generalized statements about national level politics when those statements stand negated by facts.

Good for the Madhwa Brahmin that Gandhi changed his attitude as long as he doesn't make silly statements based on this experience that before Gandhi there was no involvement of the masses in the freedom movement.

What is politically correct in India is to praise Gandhi to the skies for everything.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby ramana » 29 Sep 2011 22:56

Surasena We have a thread on Gandhiji in GDF. Please refrain form posting in the TPS thread. Thanks, ramana

For all others: Please follow up in GDF.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby paramu » 29 Sep 2011 23:03

September 28, 2011
US Empowered Pakistan Spy Agency
Gary Thomas

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/asi ... 29078.html

Photo: REUTERS
U.S. Admiral Michael Mullen on Capitol Hill, Washington, D.C., Sept. 22, 2011 (file photo).
Adm. Mike Mullen set off a firestorm on September 22 when he bluntly accused Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence directorate, the ISI, of backing militants’ attacks on U.S. facilities in Afghanistan.

In a Congressional testimony that the White House has since refused to endorse, the outgoing chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff alleged ISI agents have been using militants as proxies to maintain regional influence.

"In choosing to use violent extremism as an instrument of policy, the government of Pakistan jeopardizes ... the prospect of our strategic partnership," he told the Senate Armed Services Committee on Thursday.

But the U.S. bears some responsibility for putting the ISI directorate in its current position of prominence.

The ISI first used Islamic militants to foster policy goals in neighboring Afghanistan in the 1980's war against Soviet occupation, and did so with active assistance from the CIA. Professor Owen Sirrs of the University of Montana, who is researching a new book on the ISI, says the CIA let the ISI decide how huge amounts of cash, weapons and other aid would be allocated among the Afghan anti-Soviet fighting groups.

"We acknowledged that ISI was going to be the filter between us and the Afghan mujahedin against the Soviets," he says. "That gave ISI tremendous power because then they could essentially decide who was going to be the future kings of Afghanistan, the future leadership of Afghanistan. ISI played a kingmaker role, and we essentially allowed this to happen.”

Sirrs says the ISI favored Islamist radicals like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and Jalaluddin Haqqani with the most funds and weapons, building ties that still endure and now bedevil the Washington-Islamabad relationship. The U.S. blames the Haqqani network, now a Taliban ally, for many of the attacks on U.S. and allied facilities in Afghanistan.

A complex history
The ISI was founded in 1948 by a British army officer just after the partition of the Indian subcontinent into Muslim-majority Pakistan and Hindu-dominated India. It was then, as it is now, one of several competing Pakistani intelligence agencies, and it was charged with countering Indian infiltration into the Pakistani army.

But the ISI’s power gradually grew. Intermittent civilian governments sought to turn it to their own purposes, such as spying on political opponents. Although officially answerable to the prime minister, however, the ISI remains firmly under control of the military, which saw it as tool to check what it considered to be incompetent civilian rule. Late prime minister Benazir Bhutto famously called the ISI a “state within a state,” underscoring the government’s inability to control the agency’s power.

Sirrs says it was a former military ruler, General Zia ul-Haq, who started using the ISI as a tool of covert action. General Zia got huge sums of money for the anti-Soviet effort, some of which, he says, ISI officers skimmed. But it was contact with radical Islamists that rubbed off on ISI officers.

"They had a shared world view of 'hey, we defeated a superpower’ - the Soviet Union - ‘this just shows the power of our ideology, the power of our faith, and we can do great things with it,' " he says. "And I think this definitely had an impact on a whole generation of ISI officers, some of whom you heard about later on who were involved with backing the Taliban."

Analysts widely agree that the ISI had a hand in creating and supporting the Taliban as it came to power in Afghanistan in the 1990s. Mullen’s comments underscore how Western intelligence agencies believe ties between the ISI and the Taliban - even though it is now an insurgency instead of a government - remain strong.

Pakistan, however, repeatedly denies any such linkage.

"The allegations betray confusion and policy disarray within the U.S. establishment on the way forward in Afghanistan," said Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani in response to Mullen's testimony. "We strongly reject assertions of complicity with the Haqqanis or of proxy war [in Afghanistan]."

Professor Christine Fair of Georgetown University, who has long studied Pakistani security and political affairs, says the ISI’s relationships with the Taliban and allied groups do exist, but are complex.

"There’s a constellation of Taliban actors, basically overlapping networks that have ties with [Gulbuddin] Hekmatyar, Haqqani, all of which is sort of on a tactical basis when it suits them," she says. "They all have different sort of relationships with what reconciliation means, and they all have different relationships with the ISI. So I think we have really been erroneous in not understanding the degree to which the Taliban have changed in the last 10 years. They’ve changed but our thinking has not.”
Undermining reconciliation
Sirrs says the ISI keeps a sharp eye on any potential negotiations that might bring about political reconciliation in Afghanistan, because it wants to control the outcome.

"If the Afghan Taliban is at all interested in negotiating with the United States or the Afghan government, it’s the Pakistani ISI saying 'we are the ones who dictate your final interests, and if you negotiate any agreement that we don’t buy into, we - ISI, the Pakistani army - we’re going to pull you back.'"

Analysts say that 63 years after its creation, the ISI and the Pakistani security establishment remains obsessed with India and its expanding political and economic influence in the region, including in Afghanistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby BijuShet » 29 Sep 2011 23:32

From The News - breaking news(posting in full)
Four injured in Islamabad hotel blast
Updated 32 minutes ago

ISLAMABAD: Four people, including a woman, sustained injuries when a blast ripped through the fourth floor of hotel's building in Blue Area here on Thursday, police sources said.

Rescue and emergency services have reached the site of the blast which is located only a few minutes' drive from the Prime Minister House where All Parties Conference is underway. The APC is being attended by the main political as well as military leadership to discuss the situation arising out of the allegations leveled by the US.

The window panes of the surrounding buildings were shattered as a result of the blast which, according to initial reports, appears to be of low intensity.

IG Islamabad while talking to media during his visit to the spot of the incident said the blast seemed to have been caused by a leakage of gas.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby ramana » 29 Sep 2011 23:43

Too much pindi channa?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Rangudu » 30 Sep 2011 00:11

After Pasha strenuously denied any connection to Haqqanis, Nawaz Sharif reportedly asked "Lekin, daal mein kuch kaala hai". Nawaz was next to Pashtun leader Mehmood Khan Achakzai who told Pasha that if ISI really wanted, Afghanistan would be peaceful in one month. Achakzai asked Pasha and Kayani that if they say Pak really wants peace in Afghanistan, then why don't you do what you can control? After that, Kayani went to both Nawaz and Achakzai at the end of the meeting and spoke for a few minutes. Meanwhile, some small and religious party types, including Imran Khan's raised slogans against US and prevented Nawaz from continuing.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby jaibhim » 30 Sep 2011 01:17

Covers a wide terrain of ground including recent developments and make a fairly detailed review -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIV9MSJ3yaY

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Gus » 30 Sep 2011 01:22

telegraph....is this an 'establishment' paper? I was under that impression.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... istan.html
For the first time in history, an ally – one which has taken $22 billion of American money since 2002 – stands accused of committing an effective act of war against the US.

We are witnessing the death spasms of an alliance that has been in meltdown from the day it began. Pakistan helped ferry al-Qaeda fighters from Afghanistan after 9/11, and spent the following years helping the Taliban to build up their strength. In 2009, the US tried to repair this by promising billions of dollars and a “strategic partnership” of equals. But a series of incidents this year – from the imprisonment of an American spy to the raid that killed Osama bin Laden – underscores the profound disillusionment felt by a generation of US officials.

There is a dawning realisation that no amount of money will compel Pakistan’s out-of-control army to stop aiding insurgents like the Haqqani network and international terrorists like Lashkar-e-Taiba, responsible for the 2008 Mumbai attacks. Even as jihadi outfits tear apart the Pakistani state, the generals can’t give up their addiction to proxy warriors. But if they keep acting like an enemy, the Americans have no choice but to treat them like one.


Added later

"General Zia-ul-Haq, Pakistan’s military ruler from 1978 to 1988, was always concerned that his secret war against the Soviet Union would tempt Moscow to hit back. He was fond of telling the CIA that “the water in Afghanistan must boil at the right temperature”.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby nachiket » 30 Sep 2011 01:59

But if they keep acting like an enemy, the Americans have no choice but to treat them like one.


Huh! And what exactly would that entail? With their supply lines still going through pukistan they can't even get themselves to cut down on aid even after years of being double-crossed. An empty threat if there ever was one.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby jrjrao » 30 Sep 2011 03:18

The taller than tallest and the deeper than deepest are also the fastest at coitus interruptus.

In the WSJ today:

A Deal's Collapse Clouds Pakistan's China Alliance
A Chinese mining company pulled out of what was to be Pakistan's largest foreign-investment deal because of security concerns, complicating Islamabad's effort to position its giant neighbor as an alternative to the U.S. as its main ally.

An official at China Kingho Group, one of China's largest private coal miners, said on Thursday it had backed out in August from a $19 billion deal in southern Sindh province due to concerns for its personnel after recent bombings in Pakistan's major cities.

Zubair Motiwala, chairman of the Sindh Board of Investment, acknowledged the cancellation of plans to build a coal mine, power and chemical plants over 20 years. But he said he was hopeful that Kingho would reconsider.

Pakistan has been playing up its friendship with China ever since the U.S. killing of Osama bin Laden in Pakistan in May sent relations between Islamabad and Washington into a tailspin.

But China's response has been lukewarm so far, suggesting that Islamabad may remain dependent on billions of dollars in military and civilian aid from Washington for some time to come.

Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani used a visit this week from Meng Jianzhu, China's minister of public security, to promote the friendship, which Mr. Gilani said was "higher than mountains, deeper than oceans, stronger than steel and sweeter than honey."

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby joygoswami » 30 Sep 2011 03:31

If not Uploaded Before, Found this in the New York City Transit Website.

Image

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Amber G. » 30 Sep 2011 03:36

Watch Fareed Zakaria's interview of Mullen this Sunday.

While WH ( and some in Pentagon according to WP) is distancing itself from his statements about equivalence of ISI and Terrorists..Mullen stands by every word he said...

He Repeats on GPS that elements in Pakistan's spy service are "very active" with the Haqqani network.

According to WP:
Asked by Zakaria if he overstated the situation to Congress, Mullen repeated
"There are elements I think of the ISI very active with Haqqan... "the piece of the ISI that is so focused on sending Taliban and insurgents into Afghanistan" from safe havens in Pakistan must be addressed by both the United States and Pakistan's government and military...."

He also says "the strategic intent here is to ... focus on this like a laser, because it's been there for a long time and unless the Pakistani leaders take action, it will continue to be there and that support will continue to be there."

His tone is said to be a little soft, but I think it will be an interview worth watching.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Guddu » 30 Sep 2011 04:35

Considering the stress in pakiland...this makes eminent sense. I think this is the first salvo to get the pakis to GUBO.

Pakistan: NATO Fires Rockets Into North Waziristan
September 29, 2011 | 0712 GMT
PRINT Text Resize:
NATO forces fired 12 rockets on the Ghulam Khan area of Pakistan’s North Waziristan, Karachi Dawn News reported in a screen caption at 0433 GMT Sept. 29. Another screen caption reported that government sources said Pakistan retaliated by firing 15 mortar rounds. Another caption reported sources claiming that Pakistani helicopters were flying along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.
Last edited by Guddu on 30 Sep 2011 05:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby CRamS » 30 Sep 2011 04:37

Guys, its obvious now that there are deep divisions among the American establishment into tackling TSP. But what mystifies me is that somebody as powerful as Mullen is being dis-credited. Something doesn't add up. We all know that Economist is the mouthpiece of western ruling elite. They are downplaying big time, Mullen's truth speak against TSP. Looks like one of Economists's handlers in the CIA/Pentagon is undermining Mullen.


Perhaps because he is retiring this week, Admiral Mullen seems to have overstated things. It is not clear that the Americans have, as he claimed, a smoking gun linking the ISI to the ordering of strikes in Afghanistan.



Now, if one wants to learn the art of spinning, or telling lies without actually telling one, or make a terrorist look benign when necessary, Economist provides a perfect example


The chief help that Pakistan gives the Haqqanis takes the form of sanctuary, and perhaps guidance. Little suggests any direct Pakistani role in Haqqani operations.



Please explain Economist's madarasa logic to me. Whats the difference between TSP guiding Haqqanis and direct TSP role in Haqqani operations? :-).

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby paramu » 30 Sep 2011 04:49

Pak military have kept evidence of US working with ISI and other groups in the 80s.
The fear of exposure may have made them to retract. This seems to be a big game.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Cosmo_R » 30 Sep 2011 05:19

Mullen is not being discredited. At the end of his tenure, he's playing the bad cop while James Mattis is going to play the good cop. It's the classic US foreign policy mechanism: The Embrace of The Iron Maiden (no not the rock group):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_maiden_%28torture%29

It's also providing cover for Obama to strike. The Republicans cannot now fault him for bombing the Hakka Noonies. All they are waiting for is Faisal Shahzad 2.0 to go full frontal. In the meantime, there will be drone strikes on Miranshah IMHO slowly denuding and discrediting the PA

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Nandu » 30 Sep 2011 05:27

joygoswami wrote:If not Uploaded Before, Found this in the New York City Transit Website.

Oh, really? Could you link to said website, rather than to imageshack?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2011 05:35

Surasena wrote:We have enough bullsh*t hagiographies glorifying Gandhi & his shishyas, how about a little more credit for the others?

"We" have had enough? Who is "we"? You go right ahead and credit anyone of your choice with any achievement you like. There is absolutely no need to address your pet likes and dislikes at me. I put it to you that you have yourself not read Gurcharan Das' book but like Salman Rushdie's mullah detractors you are getting your undies in a twist based on hearsay.

Surasena wrote:And where did I say he was "insulting" the others?

You sound extremely upset sir. Read your own post.

Surasena wrote:Personal experiences can't be the basis for making generalized statements about national level politics when those statements stand negated by facts.

Personal experience is the basis of making political statements for 99% of people in the world It is complete and utter nonsense to say that it "can't" be the basis. It already was, before you were born and will be after you are dead.

Surasena wrote:Good for the Madhwa Brahmin that Gandhi changed his attitude as long as he doesn't make silly statements based on this experience that before Gandhi there was no involvement of the masses in the freedom movement.

What is politically correct in India is to praise Gandhi to the skies for everything.

Silly and not silly are personal opinions. I think your objections are silly. I will praise and deride whom I want. Please put me on you ignore list and preach your holy book to more receptive ears. You will henceforth go on my ignore list. Thanks for providing sufficient information about yourself.
Last edited by shiv on 30 Sep 2011 05:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2011 05:41

jrjrao wrote:The taller than tallest and the deeper than deepest are also the fastest at coitus interruptus.

In the WSJ today:

A Deal's Collapse Clouds Pakistan's China Alliance


You mean "Taller than tallest, deeper than deepest and interruptest of coitus" :D

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby Cosmo_R » 30 Sep 2011 05:49

shiv wrote:
You mean "Taller than tallest, deeper than deepest and interruptest of coitus" :D


Maybe plaecox?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby SureshP » 30 Sep 2011 05:52

A very readable Ayaz today. All it took was a few well chosen words from Mullen.

Working the levers of patriotism

Ayaz Amir
Friday, September 30, 2011

No one can work the engines of patriotism better than the army and its ideological wing, the ISI. In actual combat their performance may invite questions. But in ideological combat their skill is unsurpassed.

In the annals of Pakistani democracy no fiction is more endearing than that of parliamentary sovereignty. The army and ISI set the score and music of national security. Civilian governments and politicians perform vigorously to this music and call it parliamentary sovereignty.

The corps commanders led the national outrage over the Kerry-Lugar bill, the jihadi media taking its cue from there. We know what deft hands first generated and then dissipated the hype over the Raymond Davis affair. Left to itself the federal government might have handled matters differently. But then the ISI wouldn’t have been the ISI if it had allowed this to happen.

When Sheikh Osama’s hideout was busted in Abbottabad, the first reaction of both President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani was sensible. But they weren’t counting on the deep sense of humiliation felt in General Headquarters. Realising their error they changed tack and hurriedly joined the national chorus of patriotism which had begun belting out lines about wounded sovereignty.

Few people paused to ask whether the sharper blow to national pride was dealt by the Americans or the Sheikh who, with his computers and disk drives, had installed himself in Abbottabad for close on five years. Where lesser mortals might have directed their anger at Al-Qaeda we went blue in the face denouncing America.

No praise is too high for Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha, the ISI chief, for playing the subsequent in-camera session of parliament the way he did. Towards its end most of the parliamentarians seemed to be eating out of his hands, all speaking the same language of honour and national pride with which he had prefaced his briefing.

Now in the latest outbreak of patriotic fever in the wake of Admiral Mike Mullen’s excoriating remarks about the Haqqani group and its real or presumed linkages to the ISI, it is again the army and ISI orchestrating the national response, and the government and much of the political class following suit and reading from the script prepared by the supreme guardians.

The corps commanders met first and Prime Minister Gilani swung into action later, calling up the assorted characters who presume to speak on behalf of the Pakistani people, and inviting them for an all-parties conference (APC). If past experience is any guide, there are few activities more pointless than this gathering of the good and the not-so-great. It is safe to say – these lines being written before this momentous event – that the emphasis will be on verbosity and beating the drums of national honour. At the end will come the refrain, the nation stands united.

The Pakistani nation caught up in the throes of patriotism is usually a dangerous sight – mostly a prelude to something bizarre and foolish. What a mood of excitement we built up in 1965, closing our eyes to the reality that our rulers of the time, for no rhyme or reason, had started the whole blooming adventure. No one punished them but the country is still, in myriad ways, living the consequences.

In 1971 every vehicle in Lahore carried the sticker “Crush India”. We know who was crushed and who wasn’t in that conflict. The Afghan jihad, the conflict in Kargil, our predilection with managing the affairs of Afghanistan, when everything points to the conclusion that we are far from able to manage our own....the list of our militant follies is endless.

The US may be using too broad a brush and putting too thick a coat of paint on our warped strategic theories, but there is a growing body of opinion in Pakistan itself that the time for our strategic games is up. Mike Mullen did not say the ISI was attacking Kabul. We should read his testimony more dispassionately. He was saying the culprits were from the Haqqani group and that this group had strong links with the ISI.

Who the intrepid soul who would deny this last point? Don’t the Haqqanis have havens on this side of the border? The ISI doesn’t micro-manage them, it has no operational control over them. But in the name of all that is profane, don’t they have a presence there and here?

They are assets for the future, our strategic grandmasters will say. Haven’t we played enough of Afghan games and isn’t it time to let that unfortunate country be on its own? No one should wish more misfortunes upon the Afghan people but if they must fight their own internecine wars what drives us to the necessity of being a part of them, directly or indirectly?

Not only is it high time the army redrew its priorities, it is also time it stopped forcing its theories on hapless civilian governments. Every malevolent adjective in the world this government – indeed the entire political class – richly deserves. We have a set of ineffectual people at the helm, their capacity and competence no secret to anyone. But, I would venture to suggest, that even these clowns, if left to do their own bit, would manage relations with the US better than our brilliant army commanders.

There is no more difficult negotiating partner in the world than the MQM. He who can handle the MQM can deal with anyone, even the spirits of the dark and the deep. If we settled for cheap terms and low wages in 2001, broad-chested generals were in charge of national affairs not weak-kneed civilians. When the time was for negotiating something sensible and equitable with the Americans our army command blew it. Now when events have moved on and a new dynamic is in play, the army command just refuses to dismount from the high stallion of national honour and inviolable sovereignty.

What kind of a country are we? After India tested its nuclear bombs in 1998 Lal Kishan Advani only had to make a few threatening statements for Pakistan to go into panic mode and rush into its own tests. Israel hasn’t carried out any nuclear tests. Is its nuclear arsenal any less effective because of this? What, if exercising better judgment – admittedly, a tall order – we hadn’t tested in May 1998. Would our bombs have melted or just disappeared? And would Indian tanks have invaded Pakistan?

Here we are bedevilled by the wages of terrorism and a falling economy and yet we speak the language of Prussia at the height of its military power.

And now Mullen’s congressional testimony and some tough talk by the US secretary of defence Leon Panetta have thrown us into a panic in 2011. The corps commanders, forsaking their beloved golf, meet on a Sunday and the good and the patriotic get together for the Pakistani variant of that all-time farce called the APC.

Philip, Alexander the Great’s father, held out this threat to Sparta: “If I enter Laconia (Sparta’s other name), you shall be exterminated.” The reply was a single word, “If”. It’s too much to hope that Pakistan can emulate such brevity but at least our response to real or imagined challenges could be less windy and extended than they often tend to be.

Why should the Americans attack us when a few statements can so thoroughly unnerve us? We are already talking again – the Americans and us – and let no one say that American pressure, calculated or fortuitous, hasn’t worked. The corps commanders hurriedly called to meet and the pantomime of the APC are reminders less of a nation united than a nation easily jolted.

But more than semantics and the right tools of verbiage we have to put a rein on our strategic theories. The threat to us is from within, from the cumulative consequences of past follies. India is an elephant. Living cheek-by-jowl with an elephant is always a problem. But can we please get out of the calculus of India posing some kind of an existential threat to us? From the realm of dreams and fantasies, and imagined threats, isn’t it time we stepped into the real world?


http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=70104&Cat=9

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby sourab_c » 30 Sep 2011 06:13

Interesting interview by Christian White. He talks about teaching a lesson to Pakistan.

Is Pakistan too big to fail?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby dnivas » 30 Sep 2011 06:19

Nandu wrote:
joygoswami wrote:If not Uploaded Before, Found this in the New York City Transit Website.

Oh, really? Could you link to said website, rather than to imageshack?


Image is super fake. came out after Faizal' 'do you think you can blow' tryout in NYC

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Postby shiv » 30 Sep 2011 06:29

Cosmo_R wrote:
shiv wrote:
You mean "Taller than tallest, deeper than deepest and interruptest of coitus" :D


Maybe plaecox?


:lol: "ejacuratio plaecox


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