Re: US strike options on TSP

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Amitava
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Amitava » 26 Apr 2014 21:18

How US is turning into an oligarchy.

Martin Gilens of Princeton, well known for "Affluence and Influence"
... America's policymakers respond almost exclusively to the preferences of the economically advantaged. Affluence and Influence definitively explores how political inequality in the United States has evolved over the last several decades and how this growing disparity has been shaped by interest groups, parties, and elections.

With sharp analysis and an impressive range of data, Martin Gilens looks at thousands of proposed policy changes, and the degree of support for each among poor, middle-class, and affluent Americans. His findings are staggering: when preferences of low- or middle-income Americans diverge from those of the affluent, there is virtually no relationship between policy outcomes and the desires of less advantaged groups. In contrast, affluent Americans' preferences exhibit a substantial relationship with policy outcomes whether their preferences are shared by lower-income groups or not.

http://www.amazon.com/Affluence-Influence-Economic-Inequality-Political/dp/0691153973

has a new paper "Testing Theories of American Policies"
Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence. The results provide substantial support for theories of Economic Elite Domination and for theories of Biased Pluralism, but not for theories of Majoritarian Electoral Democracy or Majoritarian Pluralism.


http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/Gilens%20homepage%20materials/Gilens%20and%20Page/Gilens%20and%20Page%202014-Testing%20Theories%203-7-14.pdf

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby member_22733 » 26 Apr 2014 21:55

A_Gupta wrote:The burden of history is not easily shed.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... th/361182/


This is an amazing passage and describes the colonized mind beautifully:

Strivings of the Negro People by W.E.B DuBois wrote:It is a peculiar sensation, this double-consciousness, this sense of always looking at one's self through the eyes of others, of measuring one's soul by the tape of a world that looks on in amused contempt and pity. One feels his two-ness,—an American, a Negro; two souls, two thoughts, two unreconciled strivings; two warring ideals in one dark body, whose dogged strength alone keeps it from being torn asunder. The history of the American Negro is the history of this strife,—this longing to attain self-conscious manhood, to merge his double self into a better and truer self.


If your 'native' side wins this battle of optics you become a truly free human. If your 'colonized' side wins it you become an eternal slave, an enternal house n**ro. This is a fight every 'convent educated' colonized Indian should fight. I dont claim to have won it, but the journey itself is an extremely gratifying experience.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby svinayak » 27 Apr 2014 06:55

LokeshC wrote:The burden of history is not easily shed.
If your 'native' side wins this battle of optics you become a truly free human. If your 'colonized' side wins it you become an eternal slave, an enternal house n**ro. This is a fight every 'convent educated' colonized Indian should fight. I dont claim to have won it, but the journey itself is an extremely gratifying experience.

One should as Indians go back to the roots. To your ancestors, your ancestor village, your family history, your kula and vamsha and dharmic roots. That is the only way to shed your colonial baggage.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby member_22872 » 03 May 2014 22:22

Old dated article, so I apologize if this was already posted:
Is there an American Caste system by Rajiv Malhotra

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Vayutuvan » 05 May 2014 00:19

Shiv, you underestimate TSJ. If my guess is right TSJ went to one of the best accounting departments in US. From a wild guess of his age I would say even that was the best accounting dept. when she was there.

The disagreement is fundamental which is far from mundane considerations like money or ego. The US wants India to be their Chela but India wants to strike its own path to their destiny. You do not want people in power in India to encourage youngsters to go to umrika as they are needed in India - you want to stem the brain drain. Otoh US would want naturally the best of the best to come to US. They cannot achieve 100% efficiency due to family reunion considerations and asylum laws.

May I suggest that people post "positive news" links here but take analysis and discussion to understanding the US thread?

There are otherwys to skin the cat of giving both US and India what each wants. But then the maximalists on both sides are a problem. In seeing the US as the "great satan" we (as in India) will be committing the same mistake as the middle easterners. Both of them together have 1000 years of mistrust stemming from crusades and a little before. I would like to know what exactly is the bone of contention between the US and India other than a vestige of cold warriors who are going to gone in a decade or two and the Indian feudal elite who want to go back to their world of brown sahibs in India? US is a working people country - it is unlike the old colonial powers where old money looks down upon new money. The vestigial British India brown sahibs are also not immune to the attractions of lording over uneducated oppressed masses. Thankfully they are going out of fashion if the rise of Modi against the Nehru dynasty is any indication.

Do you want US to let the menial labor into US? That is not going to happen even though there are extremely competent people like Bhagwati arguing for such a free for all.

IMHO, This thread does not serve any purpose other than to vent on the US. Brutus fulmen and a sucker play in that it is a loose-loose game onleeee.

If one wants to get to the root of the problem then it is better to dissect the body and find the internal structure. Snipping of those arteries (or is are they veins?) that supply oxygen to those who are hurting India.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby TSJones » 05 May 2014 12:29

Shiv, you underestimate TSJ. If my guess is right TSJ went to one of the best accounting departments in US. From a wild guess of his age I would say even that was the best accounting dept. when she was there.


Aren't there females on twitter you could be harrassing?

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby shiv » 05 May 2014 15:54

matrimc wrote: You do not want people in power in India to encourage youngsters to go to umrika as they are needed in India - you want to stem the brain drain.

Not really. I don't believe any such policy is desirable and I don't believe that all the smart people are going to the US or that smart people stay on and never come back. Many simply don't go. Among those who do, it is a two way flow and many come back and contribute abundantly and meaningfully to India. Stopping people from going is a mistake. Indian policymakers and strategists must understand that those who get in are carefully selected by general process of profiling based on need. There are smart people who are simply refused visas because the US has too many of a particular type. Others simply walk in.

Another factor is that there are many wealthy families in India who run successful businesses or are otherwise well placed. Going to the US and staying there for them would be a step down. The profile of the Indian who goes to the US and stays is often "Plenty of education. Plenty smart, but not a lot of money in India. Not a particularly wealthy family". In the 60s and 70s - Brahmins used to fit these criteria perfectly which is why I once suggested on BR that someone should do a caste break up census of Indians in the US

Everyone who goes thinks "Hey I got in because I am smart". Yes they are smart , but that is not all. They are filtered to fill US needs. A US law - ACWIA was specifically made for this need. They add to US power. To the individual it does not matter. But as a whole Indians (policymakers, strategists) must understand that the US enhances its power and economy by getting smart people without having had to spend on basic school and college education for them. At the other end of the spectrum - Mexicans and others add to a cheap labor force that keeps costs down. The US is a clever operator and we simply need to understand how it works.


matrimc wrote:Do you want US to let the menial labor into US? That is not going to happen even though there are extremely competent people like Bhagwati arguing for such a free for all.

That would be a laugh. If the US let in Indians for menial labour then we would hear far more meaningful stories about how the US really treats that class of people. With most Indians in the US being educated and rich the great stories we hear from the US are about the educated and the rich. In India it means that when I sit in the Golf club or in Bangalore club and order a drink and have a meal with friends - I and all the others who are using club facilities like me - educated, relatively well off, English speaking people invariably have connections with the US and other countries in multiple ways. The waiters and the people who clean up after the meal and the caddies are the uneducated Indians who have zero connections with the US and zero chance of going to the US unless:
1. They do a Sangeeta Richard
2. They join a revolutionary evangelical group working against slavery and oppression of "daleets" and get in via a small quota
3. India's reservation policy gives them an education and a few do manage to go on the basis of that education.

This third group in my view are the real future of India. Many will not go to the US like my super-smart relatives and friends. They will get jobs in DRDO, OFB, HAL etc - sometimes reserved jobs and will be grateful for that and work hard for what they get. But that is a different topic.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Vayutuvan » 05 May 2014 23:16

TSJones wrote:
Shiv, you underestimate TSJ. If my guess is right TSJ went to one of the best accounting departments in US. From a wild guess of his age I would say even that was the best accounting dept. when she was there.


Aren't there females on twitter you could be harrassing?


When did you develop a soft corner for Marxist coolies of former colonial elites? Or is it that you are a Marxist at heart who is engaged in taquiyya because you are in Texas? So you really think that I am a homophobe, misogynist, and all that our "dear vadha" says? Expected a little more from somebody who was in a town filled with Asian Americans, euro Americans, and people from all over.

(Added Later) Another thing which I forgot in my original post - I remember you saying that you are not in favor of any dynasty on another forum (a left-leaning splinter of BRF which also you frequent). How come now you are supporting Prof. Priyamvada Gopal who is calling for British intervention in the democratic functioning of India that too when a backward caste working class man has risen up the ranks to challenge the entrenched Nouveau elite? By the way I agree with the twitterer who posed a few pointed questions to Prof. Gopal (if that is who are talking about). By your definition if that is harassment so be it but I would not have cared what the gender gender, sexual orientation, color, age, or nationality of a person wrting a piece similar to what Prof. Gopal has written. May ask whether you are "harassing" me now that I have said I am a non-WASP? Yeah sure man, whut ever. Go ahead and "harass" away. I am not the type to put you on my ignore list. I believe in surrounding myself with both my harshest critics and my ardent supporters and everybody in between (unlike some professors from OXbridge who have very fragile egos, suffer from insecurity, and low self-esteem and take refuge in communes).

You might have surely heard this "Show me somebody who does not know the difference between friends and enemies and I will show you somebody who has no friends". :P
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 06 May 2014 09:17, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Vayutuvan » 05 May 2014 23:57

shiv wrote:
matrimc wrote:Do you want US to let the menial labor into US? That is not going to happen even though there are extremely competent people like Bhagwati arguing for such a free for all.

That would be a laugh. If the US let in Indians for menial labour then we would hear far more meaningful stories about how the US really treats that class of people.

I find several problems with your above post. Due to lack of time (have to get back to work, you see - we are working people onlee :P ) I will list two

1. How US treats minorities and lower class is well known and well publicized. There is no need to hear it from second hand or third hand sources.

2. Mistreatment is not as wide spread as you might want some people in India to believe.

3. (oh well, I thought I might as well take another minute or so to post one more point). If the purpose of "Positive News Thread" is to educate your caddies and your car drivers in India, then you are doing it wrong. You have said several times before that the number of English media readers, listeners, and watchers in India is very small as opposed to those who follow the vernacular. I feel you are wasting your time (not my problem but just sayin') on posting it on BRF. If I were you I would talk to them and convince them not to go to US or elsewhere in search of better prospects. If I am unable to do that, I would reconcile myself to caddying my own golf cart. :P But then it is like saying "if only my aunt had ...".

I am sure 99.999% of the people on BRF would be able to get into US without any hassles and would be considered an asset by US. My WAG is that a majority would be happy as well. Cannot stem the tide - just recently my 4th cousin twice removed (on K_{1,1} bi-partite graph) was asked advise from one his nieces who is interested in Aerospace whether to do UG in India and come to US for grad studies or come to US for UG itself. She has excellent academic, 99% ile standardized test scores including APs, parents have the money (they slogged in gulf for several years) to send her here. she also told me one of her seniors who went to an IIT and came to US to a prestigious xIT schools for grad studies advised her to come to US for UG itself. His reasoning was that if she is interested in research and academia, then even IITs are nowhere compared to the resources and teaching and advising she would be able to get in US. She got into some of the best Aero schools here and one or two offered her scholarships as well (which is quite an achievement since UGs, especially foreigners, are offered none to very few scholarships). Yes, she would be in for a long slog, but OTOH, after about 9-10 years she would be able to get into a TT position and another 5 years she would be a tenured professor. That is about 14-15 years at the end of which she might get around 70K in today's dollars which is good for a solid middle class living. What advise my cousin would have given her other than what her senior gave her? What are her chances in India considering she is a forward caste? Getting into an IIT is a crap shoot. Moreover our middle class society does not look favorably on women who chose to avoid the well worn rut of quickly finishing a professional UG, netting a nice white collar job preferably in IT, get married and "settle".

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Vayutuvan » 10 May 2014 20:35

Interesting to see only a few tech companies in the top 25. The reason is obvious IMHO. Most jobs are in health care which require the person to be on site which eliminates the danger of offshoring. Not many mfg companies in the top 25. What would be the breakup for Indian and Chinese HS grads, I wonder.

top 25 companies where top millennialist want to work
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 11 May 2014 01:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Gus » 10 May 2014 20:46

matrimc wrote:1. How US treats minorities and lower class is well known and well publicized. There is no need to hear it from second hand or third hand sources.


not amongst indians in US. i will say that i see more awareness in my second stint here than before.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 10 May 2014 23:41

X-posting from US Stray thread. An hypothesis on how elites in the US control the masses.
Mukesh.Kumar wrote:OK, a CT from me. Seem the movie 12Years a Slave. It's a good movie, but seen from an Indian context it's nothing special. It goes onto win Oscars like nobody's business. Now here the CT- Isn't the timing of the movie strange. Shows how in the end US society is just. Even the evil planter is troubled by his internal demons and the white man saves the black man. Of Lenin was alive today he would say "Hollywood is the opiate of the masses in the US.". By dominating the narrative and pop culture the elites in the US have gotten a stranglehold on the masses. The day these blinkers are off, then maybe willl come a situation like Shiv proposed of people learning to think, make do with what they have and get out of the hamster wheel of thoughtless consumption.

Another interesting movie is Wolf of Wall Street which subtly focuses all the blame on rogue greedy traders, whereas it was the regulators, big banks and legislators who were equally if not more guilty for what happened.

Till the day the public narrative is controlled by the elites, there is little hope for Americans.

Maybe the rise of Latinos will be a game changer as Rudradev suggests, only because Spanish media/art/narrative maybe below the radar for WASPs. But then a lot of Latinos try to identify themselves as white. ( Requesting members living in the US to with in with your opinions).

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Vayutuvan » 11 May 2014 01:23

Gus wrote:
matrimc wrote:1. How US treats minorities and lower class is well known and well publicized. There is no need to hear it from second hand or third hand sources.


not amongst indians in US. i will say that i see more awareness in my second stint here than before.

The people who want to know will get educated. And if the positive news thread is directed at those who want to be ignorant, after getting attracted by a couple of positive headlines and click ands an the first para and get a gist of the "positive" news they would go back to their blinkered existence. In the end BRF would be tarred with "intolerance" and "harassment" by those who don't want these advertised. The blinkered cones are not going to be educated either "bakri ki jan gayi maza bhi nahi aya" (goat has lost its life but the chef was bad so the giryani was not tasty).

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Shreeman » 11 May 2014 04:50

matrimc wrote:1. How US treats minorities and lower class is well known and well publicized. There is no need to hear it from second hand or third hand sources.

not amongst indians in US. i will say that i see more awareness in my second stint here than before.

The people who want to know will get educated. And if the positive news thread is directed at those who want to be ignorant, after getting attracted by a couple of positive headlines and click ands an the first para and get a gist of the "positive" news they would go back to their blinkered existence. In the end BRF would be tarred with "intolerance" and "harassment" by those who don't want these advertised. The blinkered cones are not going to be educated either "bakri ki jan gayi maza bhi nahi aya" (goat has lost its life but the chef was bad so the giryani was not tasty).


Of the hundreds of threads on a forum, one typically reads a few, comments on even fewer. So why the angst against this particular thread? Are the sources suspect? No. Is the news manipulated in some way? Not either. On one hand you argue "well publicized" and "known", on the other hand you do not want it collated. On one hand you claim "not widespread", then you protest generation of even anecdotal statistics.

If the positive news thread has a purpose, it is that a reader should wonder it might be. The positive news is not for you. At one time the Pakistan thread used to be among the threads on the front page of BR. Then it created too much unease among powers that be. Then came the "Bojitive neuj" and the language there alone annoyed (and continues to annoy) so many, that we lost the prophet enqyoob permanently. Not to mention moderators combing the entire forum being grammar-nazis, and lal-mullah being primarily incarcerated in that thread among more. Neither had a purpose when they started. Nor is BRF the reuters or AP.

Every argument you make holds true for any and all forum threads. In every sub-forum on ANY forum. We don't know who reads them? We don't know if the impact is positive or negative. Thus, we stay within forum guidelines. Let the eyes and hands decide what bubbles to the top. If folks are not reading and posting, a thread will find its destiny to be consigned to the third page of obscurity. Its a self-solving problem. You posting on the matter contradicts with your supposed goal.

Don't read it. You have passionately put forward arguments, from a good place. Read/enjoy the rest of the forum. Heck, the posters there, like LokeshC, have wondered themselves where it takes them! It is the soil side of a rock on the beach. Leave it alone.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Shreeman » 11 May 2014 14:13

A few simple observations. Bound to upset a few -- not intentional, skip ahead.

From any American (hundreds over 20 years) that has first insisted on understanding Indian marriages/family customs, I have always received this response -- "I can't imagine just having sex with one person". Whether it fit the discussion, or not. It is the start of the checklist titled "weird" in their mind. A first checkmark.

There remains, to date, a great cultural chasm. Yoga good, monogamy bad. And not just bad, arabian harem bad. All feminist progress lost quality bad. This creates a perception of Indian women being treated the same as middle-eastern and causes the uproar associated the the poor treatment of women incidents in India ("How can you go to another country for four weeks and come back with a wife?")

In the US -- standard procedure. Crime in India -- each of the billion guilty.

South asia == arabia. So you kandle-kissers can choose. Either kandles (arabia) or kisses (the west). Try not being South asian, being Indian is actually still generally considered good. Avoid this south asian tag. Try asian, if you want and ignore the rolling eyes. You would be right.

There was a widespread perception among Americans a generation ago that many Indian boys were gay because they walked around holding hands and had no girlfriends. So some of this is slowly getting dispelled.

You are interacting with a culture where dharma is only crisp green bills. They are second only to Australia in ignorance. And the oversized ego compensates for that. It used to be benign ignorance until the turn of the century. Now it is not.

Just because a very metropolitan area around you does not fit this bill does not change the truth. Integration of immigrant Indians in American culture remains workplace only. In the wast majority - pure wage slave situations. There are (more often than not) no common interests. And the progeny have no connections with India unlike the israelis or irish or italians.

The lust of upward mobility is just too strong in the recently emigrated. And that is equally to blame. It eats up (combined with the Indian family and religious life) the time one might use for evangelism of Indian culture. The way Americans do here, in their own (paid?) time, and in their American schools.

Understanding America is simple -- make sure you hold America in sufficient debt, and you have understood it. Analyzing the minutia is no different than trying to understand Rob Ford when he is high. The problem is making America (the non-elite) understand India -- that satisfaction with your lot is a thing, and a billion live by it.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 12 May 2014 08:06

A Report from Occupied Territory

This article originally appeared in July 11, 1966, issue of The Nation.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Vayutuvan » 12 May 2014 10:43

Shreeman wrote: Leave it alone.

Whatever floats your boat, boss. I am neither in a position to shut down the said thread nor have intentions of derailing it. It is an empty exercise is all I am saying. Carry on, don't mind me.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 13 May 2014 06:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby ramana » 12 May 2014 23:48

Shreeman,

The Dharma of America is Artha!


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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 19 May 2014 07:11


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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby A_Gupta » 19 May 2014 15:46

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/0 ... -protests/
The story below is increasingly less an aberration and more a feature of the America system of "equal justice for all".

“The judge has said at some point that he’s an important businessman in the community, and it wouldn’t be fair for him (and) his employees would suffer if he went to real jail,” said Sam Miller in an interview with local station KOMO News. “And my question is, what about the people that might suffer if he kills somebody?”

Ever since his arrest, Goodman has been the recipient of relatively lenient punishment from the court system. His bail was initially set at $75,000, which he paid. Though his request to leave the state for a trip to Las Vegas was denied, Judge Dixon did grant Goodman permission to fly to New York City for the Super Bowl just barely a month after his arrest. Goodman’s lawyer told the judge that his client had “what may be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to see his hometown team play in the Super Bowl.”

Goodman’s punishment is a far cry from Washington State’s sentencing guidelines for DUI offenders. According to the court system’s most recent DUI sentencing grid, anyone found with a BAC above .15 (Goodman’s was .16) and with two or three prior offenses (Goodman had six), the mandatory minimum jail time is 120 days. The minimum sentence may not be overturned “unless the court finds that imprisonment of this mandatory minimum sentence would impose a substantial risk to the offender’s physical or mental well-being.”

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Karan M » 19 May 2014 23:45

Guys be afraid, very afraid. Y'all are traitors per ralphy.

ralphy wrote:Here's the deal with barf. So many of the posters live in the US and teach at American universities yet thy are completely contemptuous of the US. Even though the draw rheir sustenance from the US. One dude is even in a wheel chair and probably draws social security disability. Yet they are pro Russian! Accusing someone of being a christian is one of their highest insults. They hide behind their avatars because they know if their true feelings ever got out their colleagues and asscoiates would regard them with suspicion. And rightly so since some then have access or had access to American defense industries and military matters. My personal core values are that if I can't stand a country or its civilization to the extent that I am a suberverive then by god I damn sure won't live there. They are under no such compunctions which makes me feel they are dishonest. And dishonesty deserves to be shown the light of day. Anf THAT is why I post about barf on this forum.


Meanie Indian professors vs honest American ones

I would also note that there are plenty of US born professors that teach at American universities who contemptuous of the US as well. But most of them don't post using avatars on foreign forums. they are downright transparent about their feelings. I've been in their classes.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Shreeman » 20 May 2014 02:02

Karan M wrote:Guys be afraid, very afraid. Y'all are traitors per ralphy.

ralphy wrote:Here's the deal with barf. So many of the posters live in the US and teach at American universities yet thy are completely contemptuous of the US. Even though the draw rheir sustenance from the US. One dude is even in a wheel chair and probably draws social security disability. Yet they are pro Russian! Accusing someone of being a christian is one of their highest insults. They hide behind their avatars because they know if their true feelings ever got out their colleagues and asscoiates would regard them with suspicion. And rightly so since some then have access or had access to American defense industries and military matters. My personal core values are that if I can't stand a country or its civilization to the extent that I am a suberverive then by god I damn sure won't live there. They are under no such compunctions which makes me feel they are dishonest. And dishonesty deserves to be shown the light of day. Anf THAT is why I post about barf on this forum.


Meanie Indian professors vs honest American ones

I would also note that there are plenty of US born professors that teach at American universities who contemptuous of the US as well. But most of them don't post using avatars on foreign forums. they are downright transparent about their feelings. I've been in their classes.


In the spirit of "Understanding the USA", I for one, am now totally afraid of Ralphy. How dare they teach at American universities?

You wouldn't believe the trouble just reading some Google new links can cause you. Thinner skin than the inhabitants of north arapian sea. And which one of you is the comerade by the way, come out of the cupboard already.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Shreeman » 20 May 2014 02:04

A_Gupta wrote:http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/05/18/3438970/affluenza-dui-protests/
The story below is increasingly less an aberration and more a feature of the America system of "equal justice for all".

“The judge has said at some point that he’s an important businessman in the community, and it wouldn’t be fair for him (and) his employees would suffer if he went to real jail,” ....


The disease is called affluenza, it is a north atlantic mutation of the MERS virus.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Philip » 20 May 2014 02:33

The US operates over 70,000 secret special forces around the world,indulging in covert ops.,in order to execute its goal of global dominance.Here is one report.

http://www.wired.com/2012/02/jsoc-ambinder/all/
How The Pentagon’s Top Killers Became (Unaccountable) Spies

By Spencer Ackerman

This is what people think of when they imagine the Joint Special Operations Command, or JSOC — the secretive, über-elite military unit that killed Osama bin Laden. The leader of a JSOC unit in Iraq, known as K-Bar, gets shot in the chest by insurgents. K-Bar waves away his medic until he finishes killing his assailants. His reward? Leading JSOC’s operations in Afghanistan.

Ludicrous acts of superhuman bravado are part of JSOC’s myth and mystique. That mystique is hard to penetrate: JSOC is so secretive that it instructs its members not to write down important information, lest it be vulnerable to disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act. But a new book reveals that killing might not even be the most important thing JSOC does.

Marc Ambinder, a former reporter for The Atlantic and National Journal, goes deep inside JSOC to reveal that it has become perhaps the government’s most effective intelligence agency. Unassuming office buildings around the Washington area and beyond have become unlabeled spy centers that process untold volumes of information extracted from JSOC’s hunting missions, with such a rapid analytic turnaround time that the “shooters” of the unit can quickly begin planning their next kills. In fact, Ambinder reports in The Command, his just-published eBook, the integration of tactical spying within JSOC is so thorough that it’s hard to distinguish “shooters” from analysts.

Yet JSOC operates with practically no accountability. In Iraq, it ran a torture chamber at a place called Camp Nama
— until its leader, Stanley McChrystal and his intelligence chief, Michael Flynn, cleaned it up. (There’s a debate in military circles about whether McChrystal or his friend and successor, Adm. William McRaven deserve credit for JSOC’s resurgence; but Ambinder’s reporting suggests Flynn is the real father of the modern JSOC.) The unit is supposed to answer to the chain of command, but it advised President Obama not to ask which Navy SEAL actually killed Osama bin Laden — and then wouldn’t tell Obama’s chief of staff, who ignored the advice. Even while the CIA works intimately with JSOC, it whispers to reporters, self-interestedly, that the unit is out of control.

But JSOC has the biggest trump card of all to play, institutionally: it works. Killing bin Laden was just the culmination of a furious, decade-long pace of lethal operations, involving hundreds of Afghanistan night raids in a single year; what Ambinder describes as a “free hand” in Somalia, including last month’s dramatic hostage rescue; and unseen counterterrorism mission from Pakistan to, of all places, Peru. JSOC is so busy its leadership thinks it’s exhausted, and prominent analysts claim it needs to step up its game to prevent nuclear terrorism.

Danger Room spoke with Ambinder about JSOC’s successes — and the implications for the secretive organization’s expanded reach into the spy world, especially as it becomes the lead force waging America’s Shadow Wars.

Danger Room: How did JSOC become an intelligence agency?

Marc Ambinder: It was born of necessity. As the insurgency in Iraq became too much for commanders to bear, there was a scramble to figure out how to get tactical intelligence out of anyone they captured. And it seemed like the military’s first response, generally, to use a broad over generalization, for the important people, we’ll rough them up. At least they’ll say something, and that’ll give us something tactical. But obviously it didn’t work very well, it’s immoral. They hadn’t really figured out beforehand that [Iraq] would require a lot of tactical intelligence. All the intelligence planning that went on for the Iraq war was strategic.

So there was a huge need for it. Also, there was the timing of it. JSOC was in charge of finding and interrogating high value targets in Iraq. They had just launched internal investigation inside the command into what happened at Camp Nama. There was a lot of sensitivity to the interrogation techniques that were used there. There are different accounts as to how precisely this sort of investigative police directive doctrines became embedded in the minds of the elite, tier-one warriors. But most people give credit to the J2 [intelligence chief] at the time, Gen. Mike Flynn. As he describes it, he would observe your average JSOC operation and you would see insurgents, or whomever, rounded up, put in the same room, with all the stuff they had in their hands, all the pocket litter, would be separated and just kept in a trash bag. And it was brought back to one of the other bases for processing. That was way too inefficient and way too slow for the operational tempo of the insurgents. In his mind, Flynn envisioned the insurgency to be this ever-expanding spider’s web, and the U.S. military would be like this tiny mouse, clawing at one end of it. And you needed to speed up.

DR: How complicit was JSOC in torture?

MA: I would say JSOC was moderately complicit. The number of actual interrogators and tier-one operators who actually participated in torture was very small. Less than 50. But the number of people who knew about it, even in a closed culture like JSOC, had to be much larger. And one of the big questions that still hangs over the head of Gen. McChrystal, who’s otherwise widely admired for turning JSOC around and moving it away from these [torture] techniques, is that it took him seemingly a long time when he took over the command to get his arms around how the command’s interrogation practices were actually working. There’s a legitimate and still open question of how much he knew, and what did about it.

I was able to learn that he did initiate an internal investigation that resulted in about 30 people being disciplined, with some of them kicked out of the military or transferred to other units. Because it’s a secret organization for most part the results of the investigations remain secret. JSOC prefers to keep its record of accountability in-house. But if you look at the time line, and look at what’s public — the torture report from the Senate intelligence committee blacked out all the references to JSOC. Quite clear that even on a senior level, task force commanders in Iraq knew what was going on.

DR: So they torture people until Flynn figures out there’s a better way to get intelligence?

MA: I know that sounds like a neat narrative, and this is a complicated story. But in essence, that is what happened. While you have to say the command was complicit in the rough, bad stuff early on, they figured out what was happening, and they figured out a much better, humane and more effective way of doing it. Then they proselytize it, and make sure rest of the military knows they’re doing it that way. You can’t ever erase the stain of torture, but this command deserves credit for figuring out what to do about it, and how to meet the need for intelligence without roughing people up, and how to get inside the decision loops of the insurgents.

DR: What were some of the intelligence tactics that JSOC would use?

MA: Some of the tactics were as simple as equipping your tier-one operators — i.e., a Delta Force shooter or a SEAL Team Six demolition expert, the elite of the elite — with a camera. Instead of rounding up insurgents, bringing them to one area of a house, they’d have pictures of them exactly where they are, and take pictures what they have on them exactly. They’d keep them with their pocket litter until they were processed. And they’d send pictures back in real time to an intelligence fusion center. The main one in Iraq was in Balad but there were others. And you’d have analyst who could use many of various databases that JSOC had access to, and many that JSOC was building. The common metaphor was that you’re building the airplane as it’s taking off. You built all these databases for intelligence and had secret biometrics processes. There were teams of U.S. intelligence officers who were trying to get as many fingerprints, DNA samples and so forth of anyone in Baghdad as they could. The analysts would be able to create link analysis charts from them.

If you captured Abu So-and-So, you’d be able to say within a minute, “Hey, I know your uncle is this person, who we really want to get to. If you can tell me where this person is right now, we’ll give you a break and even let you go.” And often, that would be what Abu So-and-So would do, because it would be in his best interest. Within maybe 20 minutes, JSOC could launch a second raid targeting the uncle of Abu So-and-So.

At a ground level, those kind of techniques, by 2007-8, were used not just by the elite special operations forces, but also the so-called white special operations forces — Green Berets and other Navy SEAL elements, as well as conventional human intelligence brigades that were attached to combat units.

DR: Is JSOC now the tactical intelligence agency of choice for the U.S. government?

MA: Not only are they the tactical intel of choice, they also have the operational capacity to act on that intelligence. So they generate intelligence, they analyze it, and they act on it, all in one package.

DR: What does that mean for holding JSOC accountable? This is an extraordinarily secretive military unit.

MA: There are a lot of buried caches in West Virginia and Virginia of JSOC documents. I only say that with some exaggeration. This is obviously a command that had to be secret when it was stood up in part because secrecy is the coin of realm when doing one-off special operations. The problem generally here is that by law, JSOC can’t really collect strategic intelligence or intelligence for its own sake, depending on where they are. In the war zone, in Iraq or Afghanistan, it’s different; they can collect and use intelligence there. But they also operate outside of designated war zones in North Africa, in South America, in Asia, and they use these intelligence collection techniques there as well.

It’s under the rubric of what they call “Operational Preparation of the Environment.” Which is to say, any time there’s JSOC operation, you don’t want them to fly in blind, so you have to collect some intelligence. But in practice they really stretch that definition. Elements of JSOC run their own human intelligence sources. I didn’t put this in the book, but I had one former senior JSOC operator describing to me a very elaborate JSOC operation in Beirut where a dozen more human sources were recruited to steal a variety of documents, relating to international narcotics trafficking. Which sounds great, until you remember that it’s not law enforcement officers or the CIA doing it, but the U.S. military doing it.

There are legal restrictions on what the CIA can do in terms of covert operations. There has to be a finding, the president has to notify at least the “Gang of Eight” [leaders of the intelligence oversight committees] in Congress. JSOC doesn’t have to do any of that. There is very little accountability for their actions. What’s weird is that many in congress who’d be very sensitive to CIA operations almost treat JSOC as an entity that doesn’t have to submit to oversight. It’s almost like this is the president’s private army, we’ll let the president do what he needs to do. As long as you don’t get in trouble, we’re not gonna ask too many questions.

You don’t want the command to brief members of Congress before every operation. On other hand, regular briefings every three months might give some sense of the military intelligence collection that goes on. And when you collect intelligence, it’s not just satellites that’s listen to conversation. You’re making in a lot of cases very difficult, grey, moral choices like the CIA does all the time. There’s an argument to be made — incidentally, it’s one that Republican [Rep.] Mike Rogers, the head of the House intelligence committee agrees with — for more regular briefings from JSOC, to get a more granular sense of how JSOC uses and distributes the money it’s given for intelligence gathering. He understands that a lot of vital strategic intelligence isn’t being collected by CIA, it’s being collected by JSOC, in pursuit of legitimate objectives without oversight.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby A_Gupta » 20 May 2014 05:09

The US patent system is out of control. Amazon.com filed a patent in 2011 about photographing against a white backdrop, and the patent was granted.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201405 ... azon.shtml

The combination of
1. Greedy corporations
2. Corporate attorneys
3. Patent laws that have been messed up by "reform"
4. Clueless patent examiners
5. The national ideology that "the US is innovative unlike those copy-cat Asian cultures".
6. The national ideology that "the US can compete in innovation only, because of all that low-waged labor in Asia (and Germany with its healthy manufacturing sector is an aberration)".

has resulted in these absurdities.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby A_Gupta » 20 May 2014 16:03


member_22733
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby member_22733 » 20 May 2014 16:26

matrimc wrote:
2. Mistreatment is not as wide spread as you might want some people in India to believe. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Do me a favor and Bliss to watch the following:


and note the following: She is an ACLU lawyer who, early in her career, underestimated the reach and the spread of the racial caste system in America. This book parallels her journey to get to the bottom of the rot, and let me tell you .... its deep and wide.

Lets face it man: America is built on racial slavery in one form or the other, unfortunately it continues in one form or the other to this very day. You are I are high up in the financial side of things, we are upper class folks from the lower american caste of browns. We dont face day to day issues from a racist law enforcement. I bet you and I will find it real tough to live a few years as colored poors, much much worse than if we were white poors.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Shreeman » 21 May 2014 03:32

Folks, I might as well get on with describing the fifth-cousin's (third cousin, twice removed, hereafter, simply the fifth cousin) burden. This message will appear in both Positive news and here.

Now, upfront, please note this is in the spirit of "Understanding the USA", and the only definition of "self" that fits is:

साया हूँ फ़कत, नक्श-ब-दीवार नहीं हूँ ...
merely a shadow, not made of brick or mortar am I ..


So the facts of life are what they are, they are dirtier than I can make them if I tried. There is no point in shooting the messenger. Ignore the message at your peril.

There is NO media in the US, only paid advertisements. The "law enforcement" can only be of any worth if the judiciary implementing that law is of any use. The judiciary is the definition of "rule of law". So all cries of "we have this and that" are moot, unless the judiciary actually does something. Thus, here is a definition of the US legal system. This prose describes one state court example, and one federal court example.

Lets first describe the process a judicial complaint goes through, if you ever need to use it:

[1] Find a lawyer -- This is THE hardest step. Lawyers are usually people who could not make any other profession. It is also one of the few dynastic professions where progeny often follow the parents. The number of cases actually going to trial is miniscule (1%?), so your lawyer is essentially your hired goon or a hired goon negotiating a deal for himself. There is NO scope for ethics in legal practice. Upon reviewing your case prior to filing a complaint, your lawyer calculates his fees including the average outcome of the trial being turned into his fees. Only if you receive an outrageous award will you benefit from going to a lawyer. In most cases, the lawyer will tell you upfront -- unless you have a trust fund, don't complain and move on. The lawyer is only worried about his fees. Legal fees start from say $400 per hour to thousands per hour. The lawyer decides how much time he has spent on your case. It is one of the few professions where you CAN haggle like you do with your vegetable vendor. However, do recall the the lawyer will only screw you in other ways to get the amount he wants out of this case.

[2] File a complaint: If you find a lawyer, you can start filing a complaint. Lawyers specialize in small portions of the law. Say you have an employment problem. You go to an employment lawyer, they are likely to specialize in a small part of the employment law -- e.g. injuries, or contractual disputes, and so on. You will never find a lawyer who specializes in everything. Do not expect your lawyer to understand your specialty, consequences, timeline or anything else. Your complaint will become about the parts of the law the lawyer is confident about. Everything else is either "not protected in the law" according to the law, or is too weak to be included in the complaint or will shame the lawyer or something. The lawyer wants to preserve his reputation by a) winning the case, and b) not appearing an idiot in front of the court. You CAN writing in the claims you feel are most important yourself, and force your lawyer to let them stay. This will start souring the relationship. By the time a complaint is filed, you are already out of 10,000s of dollars. It does not matter what you say, EVERYONE believes you are after a "settlement". Thus the lawyer will only worry about money numbers that can be attached to complaint claims. They will either try to quote really outlandish numbers (not my experience), or really tiny numbers (making the outcome moot).

[3] To come..

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Rony » 21 May 2014 03:36

LokeshC wrote:Lets face it man: America is built on racial slavery in one form or the other, unfortunately it continues in one form or the other to this very day. You are I are high up in the financial side of things, we are upper class folks from the lower american caste of browns. We dont face day to day issues from a racist law enforcement. I bet you and I will find it real tough to live a few years as colored poors, much much worse than if we were white poors.


Bang on ! Indians in US who don't understand this will be in rude shock when the time comes.As % of white population goes down, US will experience a lot of social tensions. The blacks, latinos are well prepared to face it. East Asians to some extent. Indians have no clue.
Last edited by Rony on 21 May 2014 03:37, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Shreeman » 21 May 2014 03:37

Folks:

I have a serious question. When an Indian policeman shoots a suspect (armed or otherwise), it is called an encounter. Encounters are bad. There are annual reports with statistics of encounters. When the US policeman shoot any random person, what is it called and how is it treated?

thanks,

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Shreeman » 21 May 2014 03:47

Wrong thread.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 23 May 2014 07:59


member_22733
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby member_22733 » 23 May 2014 08:02

Shreeman wrote:Folks:

I have a serious question. When an Indian policeman shoots a suspect (armed or otherwise), it is called an encounter. Encounters are bad. There are annual reports with statistics of encounters. When the US policeman shoot any random person, what is it called and how is it treated?

thanks,



In the US its called "the law enforcement officer (LEO) was justified in shooting for self defense."

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby ramana » 24 May 2014 04:07

Mark Cuban supports David Sperling in his racist comments on black players.

Mark of assimilation and moving up the American society is to be openly racist towards blacks.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Bharath.Subramanyam » 24 May 2014 20:45

any ideas why an govt would promote people of foreign languages to learn English and then work for 'Federal Govt' :wink:

For North Western part of Indian Sub-Continent (see the importance - 6 languages): Urdu, Punjabi, Pashto, Dari, Baloch, Tajik. (Surprising Sindhi is missing, that means the top elite of our neighbor don't have sindhis in position of power and decision making)

For Eastern part of Indian Sub-Continent (just one language): Hindi . Either India is not that important for collection or already they have so much information pouring in that they don't need specific langauage specialists :-?

-------------------------------------------------

Hello,

I found your contact information while looking for people who work with immigrant communities. We’re holding a series of online information sessions about the English for Heritage Language Speakers Program, an adult scholarship program for native speakers of certain languages who are interested in working for the U.S. federal government, which offers advanced English and career classes to help prepare them for these opportunities. The program takes place at Georgetown University and lasts for 8 months. Tuition is covered by a complete scholarship paid for by the U.S. government. You can learn more about the program, its benefits, and requirements at our website, http://www.ehlsprogram.org/, or I would be happy to send you more information.

2014–2015 Languages: Amharic, Arabic, Bambara, Balochi, Dari, Hausa, Hindi, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Mandarin Chinese, Pashto, Persian Farsi, Punjabi, Somali, Tajik, Tamashek, Turkish, Urdu, Uzbek, and Yoruba.

I would greatly appreciate it if you could announce these events to the members of your community (details below) or through your listserv:

EHLS Webinar #6: General Information
Thursday, May 29, 2014
5:00 pm - 6:00 pm

EHLS Webinar #7: General Information
Wednesday, June 11, 2014
4:00 pm - 5:00 pm

EHLS Webinar #8: The Online Application
Tuesday, July 1, 2014
12:00 pm - 1:00 pm

Thank you and don’t hesitate to contact me should you have any questions!

Best wishes,

XXXXX

XXXXX XXXXX
English for Heritage Language Speakers
Center for Applied Linguistics
(202) XXX-XXXX
http://www.ehlsprogram. org

Center for Applied Linguistics
4646 40th Street NW
Washington, DC 20016
(202) XXX-XXXX
http://www.cal.org

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 24 May 2014 23:39

>> For Eastern part of Indian Sub-Continent (just one language): Hindi . Either India is not that important for collection or already they have so much information pouring in that they don't need specific langauage specialists.

Since people in India understand/speak English, I guess they are not very interested in Indian languages.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby Shreeman » 25 May 2014 23:53

A wise man once said:

Team sports offer the best insights into the state of a society.


And it is true. The romans had their circuses.

The Europeans have their football. Fiercely competitive, but fixed rules, extremely athletic. Technology being added as it becomes available to make it more fair. Except for the players pretending to get hit, and cheat. And therein lies the crux.

Now compare this with the truly American sports. There is baseball (the true american sport), there is american bladder handball (or what is called football), and there is basketball. Basketball is still somewhat of a sport, in that it requires athleticism. But let us look at the nature of these sports and their leagues.

- First, there must be half-naked women dancing with nothing left to imagination (fine with me, the more the better, the game is a sideshow, bring on the bird watching binoculars)

- And a clown, and frequent breaks, and also men in immaculate suits (or excessive spitting, take your pick).

- Then there must be food, and too much of it, served in your seat.

- Then there must be billboards and advertisements in anything and everything.

- Then there must be excessive nationalism and flag waving. At the beginning, and in the middle, and at the end. Airplanes will fly over you. There will dozens of representatives in uniform standing front and center. Planes will fly over you.

- Did I mention the spitting? It used to be tobacco. Now its chewing gum and sunflower seeds.

- Then there must be an enmity about the opposing team. Not competition, enmity. As in murder the other teams fans in the car park, enmity.

- Its not about playing well, its about the home team winning. Even if it wins by cheating.

- They will hate a country (say cuba), but will traffic its people, under dangerous circumstances, on rafts and by gangs if they make the best gladiators. And no one will notice the irony with the immigration debate when they go to cheer them.

- Then there must be countless OLD officials, more officials watching video replays, and even more officials watching over them, and a commissioner who rules them all, and there is a rulebook thicker than the laws of the country.

- But cheating will be encouraged.

- There must be ways to "steal". And only a few things can be corrected or reviewed with technology. There will be ways for TV broadcasts to present a much better right/wrong than the officials combined.

- There must be *many* mistakes in each contest. One is not enough, there must be dozens. You can create mistakes by having imaginary regions of "ball" or "strike".

- There will be no notion of a team. Its not 9 or 11 or 25 or 40. Its a "system", its a constant buying and selling of players. You mix and match people for every contest. You buy people from the very team you are going to play right before the contest. You "option" them, you "disable" them when you don't need them. In short, there is no such thing as a team. You can't really tell "who's on first". Its not hu.

- Finally, the circuses will be held often enough to keep the population happy. The gladiators will be injured often enough. A "Oooooooh" goes up in the crowd. The next bull is released from the bullpen, and the remaining gladiators fight on.

- The Old men, one of dozens of "coaches" decides what the gladiators will do in each contest. There will be magical signals and hand waving or speakers in the gladiators helmet telling you exactly what to do.

- The gladiator field will make not sense. It will have mounds and dimples. It will have year markers and odd-length marks. They will use ropes to measure things. It will have bags. It will have grass, but also sand. It will have weird upside down goals. It will have walls of odd length and height.

- Slaves will need to clean the arena during the contest. Frequently.

- Hurting someone is good. If someone defeats you now, plunk then the next time you a chance. And then these millionaire gladiators will come out in force and knock the hell out of each other in a free for fall. They will be fined a few pennies. And the crowd will enjoy this.

- The circus will produce, and sell souvenirs. In the game, before the game, and after the game. There will be more balls or bladders used than in a whole year of any other ball game. If it touches the ground -- its a souvenir.

- And it is all in the aid of the owner/king in the shadows -- a deranged senile Donald Sterling . Who hates the gladiators. And for whom it is all about selling the hotdogs.

- Did I mention the spitting, and the trash? I did? Well, there is enough of it for a second mention.

And that is the nature of the American society, too.

PS: Great games -- cheating methods difficult to summarize (pine tar on the neck or in your cap or your arm, harmones and drugs, cork in the bats,...), grabbing a guy in the nuts in a pile, taking pot shots in a brawl, all good. Role models - shooting oneself in the foot or shooting a couple of people to death on whim, All good as well. Oh, I didn't mention the press conferences after hitting one's would-be wife?
Last edited by Shreeman on 26 May 2014 01:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby TSJones » 26 May 2014 01:43

Shreeman wrote:A wise man once said:

Team sports offer the best insights into the state of a society.


And it is true. The romans had their circuses.

The Europeans have their football. Fiercely competitive, but fixed rules, extremely athletic. Technology being added as it becomes available to make it more fair. Except for the players pretending to get hit, and cheat. And therein lies the crux.

Now compare this with the truly American sports. There is baseball (the true american sport), there is american bladder handball (or what is called football), and there is basketball. Basketball is still somewhat of a sport, in that it requires athleticism. But let us look at the nature of these sports and their leagues.

- First, there must be half-naked women dancing with nothing left to imagination (fine with me, the more the better, the game is a sideshow, bring on the bird watching binoculars)

- And a clown, and frequent breaks, and also men in immaculate suits (or excessive spitting, take your pick).

- Then there must be food, and too much of it, served in your seat.

- Then there must be billboards and advertisements in anything and everything.

- Then there must be excessive nationalism and flag waving. At the beginning, and in the middle, and at the end. Airplanes will fly over you. There will dozens of representatives in uniform standing front and center. Planes will fly over you.

- Did I mention the spitting? It used to be tobacco. Now its chewing gum and sunflower seeds.

- Then there must be an enmity about the opposing team. Not competition, enmity. As in murder the other teams fans in the car park, enmity.

- Its not about playing well, its about the home team winning. Even if it wins by cheating.

- They will hate a country (say cuba), but will traffic its people, under dangerous circumstances, on rafts and by gangs if they make the best gladiators. And no one will notice the irony with the immigration debate when they go to cheer them.

- Then there must be countless OLD officials, more officials watching video replays, and even more officials watching over them, and a commissioner who rules them all, and there is a rulebook thicker than the laws of the country.

- But cheating will be encouraged.

- There must be ways to "steal". And only a few things can be corrected or reviewed with technology. There will be ways for TV broadcasts to present a much better right/wrong than the officials combined.

- There must be *many* mistakes in each contest. One is not enough, there must be dozens. You can create mistakes by having imaginary regions of "ball" or "strike".

- There will be no notion of a team. Its not 9 or 11 or 25 or 40. Its a "system", its a constant buying and selling of players. You mix and match people for every contest. You buy people from the very team you are going to play right before the contest. You "option" them, you "disable" them when you don't need them. In short, there is no such thing as a team. You can't really tell "who's on first". Its not hu.

- Finally, the circuses will be held often enough to keep the population happy. The gladiators will be injured often enough. A "Oooooooh" goes up in the crowd. The next bull is released from the bullpen, and the remaining gladiators fight on.

- The Old men, one of dozens of "coaches" decides what the gladiators will do in each contest. There will be magical signals and hand waving or speakers in the gladiators helmet telling you exactly what to do.

- The gladiator field will make not sense. It will have mounds and dimples. It will have year markers and odd-length marks. They will use ropes to measure things. It will have bags. It will have grass, but also sand. It will have weird upside down goals. It will have walls of odd length and height.

- Slaves will need to clean the arena during the contest. Frequently.

- Hurting someone is good. If someone defeats you now, plunk then the next time you a chance. And then these millionaire gladiators will come out in force and knock the hell out of each other in a free for fall. They will be fined a few pennies. And the crowd will enjoy this.

- The circus will produce, and sell souvenirs. In the game, before the game, and after the game. There will be more balls or bladders used than in a whole year of any other ball game. If it touches the ground -- its a souvenir.

- And it is all in the aid of the owner/king in the shadows -- a deranged senile Donald Sterling . Who hates the gladiators. And for whom it is all about selling the hotdogs.

- Did I mention the spitting, and the trash? I did? Well, there is enough of it for a second mention.

And that is the nature of the American society, too.


I don't agree with some of what you wrote, but what you wrote was damn impressive.

panduranghari
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Posts: 3778
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Re: Understanding the US-2

Postby panduranghari » 26 May 2014 02:47

Has the sepoy network gone into hyper drive after Modi's election? Right now, USA is as close as it will be to an oligarchy. Or perhaps it is. The politicians are on hire for the super rich. For these oligarchs like the Waltons or Kochs or Gates, the investment in keeping India subjugated under their minions in the White House, is loose change. The pay off is substantial. Modi's victory has blown this opportunity. Was Ukrainian coup helped by company like Blackwater? The super rich also helped establish blackwater with state department support. Then when the SD tried to run Blackwater out of business (because they were getting expensive), the oligarchs helped Erik Prinz to move business, to their preferred destination- Hong Kong. Which happens to sit close enough to mainland china. Can they engineer. Ukraine style uprising in SE Asia? Convenient to ensure drug money won't be stopped if the local military does not cooperate. If the military coup in Thailand is some how connected to Blackwater 's presence in HK, we need to find has SD really severed its link to Blackwater?

In the USA every thing is on the verge of being privatised- education was, healthcare is, now even law and order including prisons.

Situation looks quite dire in the USA. Shared values with US- my foot.



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