Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 2011

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RajeshA
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby RajeshA » 06 Nov 2011 20:11

Ivanev wrote:Pakistan has none of it, and they are jealous kind, always ready to screw the prosperity, so always this urge for peace with them.

<snip>

The fact is there would be a line which could be crossed where there would be no other way but to take on the Pakis once and for all, till today, the Pakis have done a wonderful job keeping a safe small distance from that line.

Everybody has something to save!

For Pakistanis it could be their families, their lands, their faith, their faithful, their machismo! That is what we need to target!

If they undertake a nuclear attack:
  1. Hunt down their families, regardless of where they hide in the world!
  2. Take away their lands, doing ethnic cleansing of all those who do not submit!
  3. deleted by moderator
  4. Convert Pakistanis, using force if needed!
  5. Make every strongman in every single Pakistani neighborhood eat grass and bow to us, most importantly their leaders! Spit on them! Kick them! Abuse them! Make them break down and cry in public!

If there is a nuclear attack, all norms are thrown out of the window!
Last edited by archan on 07 Nov 2011 09:21, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited. Please be careful in future.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Vikas » 06 Nov 2011 20:48

We need to avoid this final war with Pakistan for atleast 10-15 years as well hope that Pak survives in a shitty shape for one more decade.
No I am not saying this because India will be "$4T economy by then" or "We will be flying 5G planes" or our economy would suffer al la IT honchos.

My opinion is that in next 10-15 years we will lose most of our WKK generation or they will be out of action due to age factor. The next wave of ruling elite would be the ones who would have seen India growing rich in last 20-25 years and would have no emotional ties with TSP nor would be born in some village in TSP or have memories of US might.
Most of our generation would have seen Paki perfidy by then and would not be keen to invite the rats jumping the ship into India.
We need to be ruthless when the time comes to deal a decisive blow to Pak and all its terrorist component with no love lost for Punjabis, sindhis, Pathans or Denizens of PoK.
All are guilty of murdering Indians and Hindus and they must pay for it to the max. We make sure that next Generation of Pakis remember Indian Army like they remembered Hari Singh Nalwa and Ranjit Singh.

For that we need to wait for this ruling generation to have become dust and ash before the final trumpet is blown to shred Pak to pieces.
JMT

If there is a war today or if TSP goes down, MMS, WKK's and left liberals would be on the forefront to welcome Pakis in their open arms.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby abhishek_sharma » 06 Nov 2011 20:57

There are WKKs is all generations-- not only among older people. Sagarika, Barkha et al

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby CRamS » 06 Nov 2011 20:59

Guys, establishment mouthpiece Fareed Zakariah was talking to his pal Mush. And the familiar theme, India & TSP competing for influence in Afghanistan. Mush latched on to that opening with both hands, and launched into his familiar tirade against India. Even accusing Karzai of refusing TSP's "help". Not one attempt by FZ to disabuse his audience of the lack of any equivalence between India's actions and TSP's in Afghanistan. Its because of TSP's actions that the GWOT was launched, but now its India TSP equal equal. Bloody disgusting.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby RamaY » 06 Nov 2011 21:05

RajeshAji

Good point. Long time ago I came to a conclusion that islamists hold their faith as the most dearest of all. In order to protect it they would be willing to sacrifice their faithful, lands, money, wimmen and faith in that order (it is true for all the faiths). If you observe all other faiths from 100k ft above, you will notice that those faiths are pacified only after the pillars of that faiths are taken away from them.

To pacify Islam, one needs to takeaway the pillars. The Muslims should be forced to find a local pivot instead of a singular pivot that exists today.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby CRamS » 06 Nov 2011 21:06

abhishek_sharma wrote:There are WKKs is all generations-- not only among older people. Sagarika, Barkha et al


Boss, the Bakara types are not just WKKs, they are Paki RAPE in Indian mufti. And don't forget the 3 million or so pro-TSP RAPE and Abduls in J&K itself. Heven knows how many more elsewhere in India. Look at the chutzpah with which the war criminal Mush said he is popular in India. Where from do you think that confidence arises?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby abhijitm » 06 Nov 2011 21:24

CRamS wrote:Boss, the Bakara types are not just WKKs, they are Paki RAPE in Indian mufti. And don't forget the 3 million or so pro-TSP RAPE and Abduls in J&K itself. Heven knows how many more elsewhere in India. Look at the chutzpah with which the war criminal Mush said he is popular in India. Where from do you think that confidence arises?

No need to blame WKK. The sad story of India is no Indian Gov declared Mush a war criminal. After all human life is the most dispensable commodity in India. :cry:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Vikas » 06 Nov 2011 22:03

CRamS wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:There are WKKs is all generations-- not only among older people. Sagarika, Barkha et al


Boss, the Bakara types are not just WKKs, they are Paki RAPE in Indian mufti. And don't forget the 3 million or so pro-TSP RAPE and Abduls in J&K itself. Heven knows how many more elsewhere in India. Look at the chutzpah with which the war criminal Mush said he is popular in India. Where from do you think that confidence arises?


abhishek_sharma: WKK's will always be there, but the number of WKK's will go down among ordinary public. Sagarika, Barkha et al still has a constituency among viewers and it will take some time for this constituency to dwindle.

CRamS : Mush can claim whatever he wants. As per him, Pak won the kargil misadventure. Why pay attention to what this pig says ?
We at a national level still need a comprehensive policy against TSP at every level be it social,political,economical or Defense. Till then we will have this Paki pig being pulled in all sorts of directions.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby abhishek_sharma » 06 Nov 2011 22:09

It is not clear to me that the number of WKKs would decrease with time. Recall the views of some IT-vity companies during Op. Parakram. It would be interesting to know whether similar views were heard during 1962, 1965 and 1971 wars.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Vikas » 06 Nov 2011 22:43

^ Actually we need to see if before the 65 war, we had similar WKK views being peddled.
Once the war starts then everyone is a nationalist except for Mani Shankar Aiyyar.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby ramana » 06 Nov 2011 22:51

IT/VTY were not WKKs but MUTUs.
Need to the difference.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby CRamS » 06 Nov 2011 22:56

abhijitm wrote:
No need to blame WKK. The sad story of India is no Indian Gov declared Mush a war criminal. After all human life is the most dispensable commodity in India. :cry:


I agree. At some point I feel nationalists in Indian govt, and the non WKKs generals in Indian military ought to take a stance and strike TSP (like the shooting down of the Atlantis) and deliver a punch to send the message that India has had enough. Its only then that WKKs and traitors like MKB can be silenced. Or else they will put up the standard argument, you hot heads want nuclear war? What has all your sabre rattling achieved. They will go on to cite Jassu bhai holding hands with Masood Azhar. See what we have achieved in contrast they will say. No terror attack since 26/11. Economy has grown bla bla. MMS is invited to G-20. Bill Gates opened a few more back office shops in Gurgaon. See how much Tom Friedman praises India. And India is the emerging super power of the 21st century. Sounds familiar?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby chetak » 06 Nov 2011 23:03

abhishek_sharma wrote:It is not clear to me that the number of WKKs would decrease with time. Recall the views of some IT-vity companies during Op. Parakram. It would be interesting to know whether similar views were heard during 1962, 1965 and 1971 wars.


Was not infosys one of the more vocal ones??

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby member_19648 » 06 Nov 2011 23:04

abhishek_sharma wrote:It is not clear to me that the number of WKKs would decrease with time. Recall the views of some IT-vity companies during Op. Parakram. It would be interesting to know whether similar views were heard during 1962, 1965 and 1971 wars.


Again, the fact of the matter is, people now are more afraid to lose their wealth or assets to war or conflict than they were before, since the amount of wealth and prosperity increased many times. If you have built a renowned organization, your creation, you would want to save it at any cost and so would the people who are employed by it. Again, Pakistan has none of it, so in some way they have less or nothing to lose.

@Rajesh, the elite in the PA have moved their families to US or UK or any such country who would be happy to grant them asylum. Musharraf is a great example of it. Even after being overthrown, he can dream of rising to power, give his anti-India lectures unashamed and unabashed. If he was a man of character, he would have hanged himself by now, again Pakis have none of it. Take him as a projection of the whole country and you have the Pakis. As for hunting them down by brute force, unfortunately again India is known for her culture and values. People can't and won't ever stoop to the level of the Pakis. That's why this compassion and talk of co-operation. The history has been such and the Public psyche remains the same. That's why propaganda works at a certain level. If you feed people bull-shit, in not so long a time, they would start believing it as truth, again China and Pakis are best examples of the same.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Altair » 06 Nov 2011 23:07

Need a small favor
I need a list of people like Imran Khan, Mush, Gilani etc.. who speak a lot but who actually possess green card of other nation. Basically people who crap a lot in media but who can do a jump when things get ugly.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby member_19648 » 06 Nov 2011 23:11

Altair wrote:Need a small favor
I need a list of people like Imran Khan, Mush, Gilani etc.. who speak a lot but who actually possess green card of other nation. Basically people who crap a lot in media but who can do a jump when things get ugly.


Don't tell me you are gonna make a hit list out of it! :D But the list is enormous, because most Paki upper strata send their kids abroad to study or jobs and so you have mini Pakistan in most places, and Russia is one of them too, specially its medical schools!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby KJo » 06 Nov 2011 23:13

abhishek_sharma wrote:It is not clear to me that the number of WKKs would decrease with time. Recall the views of some IT-vity companies during Op. Parakram. It would be interesting to know whether similar views were heard during 1962, 1965 and 1971 wars.


Indians (Hindus in general) value money before country or religion. Same with Americans. This is different from Pakis (Muslims) who value religion above everything. You will not see Paki WKKs advocating peace when Islam is under 'khatra'. On the other hand, you see many WKKs in India and America. Another thing with Indians is we are suckers for praise from outsiders. We look at our own people with big angry scornful eyes, but an outsider throws a bone at us and we get all dough eyes and emotional. Many people have used this against us. "Biggest democracy", "natural allies" etc etc is bs along the same lines.
Progress is not just drinking Tropicana juice in the morning and playing Angry Birds on one's iPad. It also involves growing some self respect (not H&D variety).

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby member_19648 » 06 Nov 2011 23:29

KJoishy wrote:Indians (Hindus in general) value money before country or religion. Same with Americans. This is different from Pakis (Muslims) who value religion above everything. You will not see Paki WKKs advocating peace when Islam is under 'khatra'. On the other hand, you see many WKKs in India and America. Another thing with Indians is we are suckers for praise from outsiders. We look at our own people with big angry scornful eyes, but an outsider throws a bone at us and we get all dough eyes and emotional. Many people have used this against us. "Biggest democracy", "natural allies" etc etc is bs along the same lines.
Progress is not just drinking Tropicana juice in the morning and playing Angry Birds on one's iPad. It also involves growing some self respect (not H&D variety).


K, that would be very harsh to say or generalize. I talk to everyone here in the organization I work for and among mostly middle-aged or old employees, if you ask them about the past, more often than not they would have tears in their eyes about their rise from poverty, continuing education in dark and difficult times and having to work and compete so hard to find a job, then thinking of kids and families, inflation would eat into their thought process and age. Unfortunately, the goons left India in such a bad state, that people had to battle through crippling poverty and so their window of thought got limited to earning bread/shelter (The famous Indian wish list). The same approach has been passed on to the next generation. Fortunately, India is rising and the future seems bright and things will change. In the short term, the thing is that most of the growth is led by the middle class and the primary objective remains to earn bread and that extra bit of prosperity. And also, there will be exceptions where people would rise to power and misuse their right to free speech or action as some people are doing now. The same thing was with US too where the growth was led by the middle class.

Coming back to the Pakis, their greed for money is also exemplary, AQ Khan anyone! It's just that they have hidden it under a veil of religion where they justify everything like killing innocent men/women/children in the name of religion. They recruit children for suicide bombing, what could be worse, in the name of religion to justify themselves. Why don't the ISI blow themselves up then, if they are so devoted?? Like the Japanese!!!, if they are so nationalistic/religious instead of sacrificing others. Simple reason, they are the ones benefiting and laughing their ways to the bank in the name of religion.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby KJo » 06 Nov 2011 23:40

Ivanev wrote:Coming back to the Pakis, their greed for money is also exemplary, AQ Khan anyone! It's just that they have hidden it under a veil of religion where they justify everything like killing innocent men/women/children in the name of religion. They recruit children for suicide bombing, what could be worse, in the name of religion to justify themselves. Why don't the ISI blow themselves up then, if they are so devoted?? Like the Japanese!!!, if they are so nationalistic/religious instead of sacrificing others. Simple reason, they are the ones benefiting and laughing their ways to the bank in the name of religion.


I agree, but as education/status increases, the love for money increases and love for religion decreases. Hence the top level Pakis selling out. It is easier to buy Musharraf, than Average Abdul. With Abdul, all you (as a Hindu) have to do is proclaim the supremacy of Islam, and that Allah is the only God and you will have him eating from your palm. No need for Brahmastra onlee. With Indians and Americans (in gen), it is slightly different as we value different things.

Yes, maybe harsh, but I know we can take it. :wink:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby svinayak » 07 Nov 2011 00:03

arun wrote:X posted from the India-US Strategic News and Discussions thread.

Josy Joseph writing in TOI reveals that declassified Indian documents shown that US hostility to India during the 1971 war with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan was more intense than previously disclosed:

US forces had orders to target Indian Army in 1971


Need to understand this more and discuss this more.
Pakistan behavior is monitored and also its foreign policy is under the scanner of US policymakers and US military establishment(Ayub Khan). That is one of the reason the Pak ruling elite turns to its military very often.

The wars waged by Pakistan (atleast 65 , possible 48, likely 99) was war gamed by US military and they do some scenario planning.

If the Pakistan behavior goes out of hand or they overstretch and fumble during war , the US establishment will take the risk to protect them by attacking India or reducing the war making abilities of India (spare shortage)

Karl Indufurth State dept official even made a statement to the effect in 2001 that US will back Pakistan during a war with India.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_poin ... 511473.stm

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Prem » 07 Nov 2011 02:54

Chetak,
Any idea , how many Punjabis in Indian Armed forces?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby parsuram » 07 Nov 2011 05:07

Prem wrote:Chetak,
Any idea , how many Punjabis in Indian Armed forces?


I'll take a shot at this. In '47, punjabis and pakjabis were about 2/3rd(guesstimate ca 65-68%). All mussalmans were ca 46%, including pakjabis). My guess now would be ca 22-25% Punjabis- Hindus and Sikhs.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby RamaY » 07 Nov 2011 05:26

For those who dream that a war with Pakis would change anything w.r.t india or pakis or wkk or anyone the proof lies in the four wars we had with them. A 5th war, even if it is nuclear wouldn't change much IMHO, unless few ground realities change within india.



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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2011 07:05

KJoishy wrote:
Indians (Hindus in general) value money before country or religion.
<snip>
Progress is not just drinking Tropicana juice in the morning and playing Angry Birds on one's iPad. It also involves growing some self respect (not H&D variety).


Without intending to be nasty may I point out that progress is not merely "growing" self respect beyond Tropicana and IPad, but first getting some self respect by earning enough money to feed your family for the next day, or to pay for your children's schooling next year. For Indians in particular, patriotism is linked with what your land ("Bhoomi") gives you. You need to get something before you feel that love. It is easy to forget that by being "kind" and keeping newborns and young mothers alive and not allowing them to die from problems that used to cause death 100 years ago, we now have a huge population of people whose main demand is for food, shelter and jobs. The politician in India has to cater to both the hungry poor and Tropicana patriot. If the hungry poor give him more votes, the politician says things that the hungry poor want to hear - even if he does not do that.

I believe that the educated elite (the Tropicana Patriots) of India do not understand the way the political system works in India. Anna Hazare's movement was one of the few where the Tropicana patriots were willing to work in the way the political system works - bending the system the way it can be bent, using an issue that actually is popular.

In Pakistan the political elite work mainly for the elite. They do not have to depend on the hungry poor for power. It is ironic that we the Tropicana patriots "hear and feel" the RAPE class via the media and internet and do not actually hear and feel many of our own social classes. Paki poor are not politically represented at all. The only advantage that the Indian poor have over the Paki poor is that the Indian poor are at least partly represented by Indian politicians. And when those politcians say something that does not go down well with us the Tropicana patriots they are called "anti-National". But it is a free country. One is allowed to talk about things one doesn't understand, even if you understand Tropicana and iPads. But to make things move in India, one has to join the political stream, not curse it. It is the privilege of the elite to drink Tropicana and curse politics. Sorry if that sounds cynical.
Last edited by shiv on 07 Nov 2011 07:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2011 07:25

On BRF in the early years I observed that it was mainly india's border states who understood and hated Pakistan and that other states - esp the South did not care or bother much and right on this forum I made the observation that terrorism all over India is going to wake up other Indians to what the border Indians had seen and felt for decades.

I live thousands of Km from the Paki border. I am not a Punjabi and not in the armed forces and I have no need to go anywhere near the border even as a token visit to my ancestral village. I need not care. But for the Indians living at the borders - the period from 1947 to 2003 or so (two generations) were a time when shells would come flying across the border. After 2002-3 terrorism inside India peaked so much that Indians all over India started hating Pakistan.But the borders became relatively quiet.

So now we have a situation where the people at the border are being cursed as possibly unpatriotic if they seek peace and trade. Exactly what sort of logic is being passed off nationalism on here? Those people at the border have as much of a right to have peace as I do. What am I going to do to bring them peace? Am I going to invade Pakistan?

There are absolutely no easy choices. There are no happy choices that everyone will like.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby devesh » 07 Nov 2011 07:57

Shiv ji, I'm really skeptical about "South Indians loving Pakistan until 2003". I have vivid memories from 90's where the issue of Pakistan was discussed with as visceral hatred as it ever was in any part of India. the people in the "border" states have more traumatic experiences than those living deeper in the country, but that hasn't stopped them from hating Pakis as much, if not more...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Prem » 07 Nov 2011 07:58

Eagle Vs PIG with Wings

Your “Oh Shit” Moment for a Saturday Morning
Pakistan is taking nuclear paranoia to a horrifying new low. And it’s making the world a vastly more dangerous place in the process.Freaked out about the insecurity of its nuclear arsenal, the Pakistani military’s Strategic Plans Division has begun carting the nukes around in clandestine ways. That might make some sense on the surface: no military wants to let others know exactly where its most powerful weapons are at any given moment. But Pakistan is going to an extreme.The nukes travel “in civilian-style vehicles without noticeable defenses, in the regular flow of traffic,” according to a blockbuster story on the U.S.-Pakistan relationship in The Atlantic. Marc Ambinder and Jeffrey Goldberg write that tactical nuclear weapons travel down the streets in “vans with a modest security profile.” Somewhere on a highway around, say, Karachi, is the world’s most dangerous 1-800-FLOWERS truck

Two, no noticeable defenses does not equal no actual defenses. Being unobtrusive is not the same as being unprepared for trouble. Still, it is hard not to be a little concerned by this report, or disagree with Wired’s concluding paragraph.
Which sinks the U.S. into the nadir of absurdity. It funds a terrorist-sponsoring state while conducting a massive undeclared war on part of that state’s territory. It wants that state’s assistance to end the Afghanistan war while that state’s soldiers help insurgents wage it. And seeking a world without nuclear weapons while its “Major Non-NATO Ally” drastically increases the probability that terrorists will acquire a the most dangerous weapon of all.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby abhijitm » 07 Nov 2011 08:41

devesh wrote:Shiv ji, I'm really skeptical about "South Indians loving Pakistan until 2003". I have vivid memories from 90's where the issue of Pakistan was discussed with as visceral hatred as it ever was in any part of India. the people in the "border" states have more traumatic experiences than those living deeper in the country, but that hasn't stopped them from hating Pakis as much, if not more...

I too agree. For me hate and anger for pakistan is immortal since my birth and is common across all my diverse friends, be it mallu, gujju, tamil, bengali, marathi, sindhi etc etc. In decades the hate never subsided among us but is only increasing along with gray hairs.

And the hate is contagious. My lill kido one day said how he hate pakis and how they are responsible for terror attacks. Considering his age I never talked to him about these things. Apparently he learned from his school friends!
Last edited by abhijitm on 07 Nov 2011 08:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Sudip » 07 Nov 2011 08:44

The Ally From Hell

<snip>
this is the 4th or 5th time this article has been posted in this thread. do check the thread before posting a report, especially one 3-4 days old.
Last edited by Rahul M on 07 Nov 2011 09:34, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edit.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2011 08:45

Post 3 for today:

On the 4rd of December 1971 I was up at midnight with my mother in Poona listening to Indira Gandhi's speech declaring that india was at war with Pakistan. MiG 21s from Lohegaon roared overhead (I could tell from the sound) towards Mumbai in the middle of the speech to attend to what turned out to be a false alarm.

Mumbai was probably just within reach of Pakistani aircraft. In Poona we had a strict blackout. Strict means strict. Nights were pitch dark in previously well lit urban areas. No question of stepping out after dark. I understood what "blackout" meant - seeing that in 1965 and 1971. In the middle of the war my holidays started and we went to Bangalore in a blacked-out train.

Now Bangalore too had a blackout. I don't want to sound insulting about the folks in Bangalore After all we too had people fighting the war. We waited anxiously for news of Suresh who was out there somewhere. But for me - a jobless total free bird post-exam schoolboy who was in Poona at the start of the war and found himself in Bangalore 2 days later the contrast was stark. I could stick my head out in Bangalore at night and there were actually a few dimly lit windows visible. We could actually navigate the street by the very very dim light available, unlike Poona where it had been pitch black with no chance of navigating any street. We had to be home bound. The radio and newspapers spoke of air raids/alerts in places like Amritsar, Jalandhar, Jamnagar, Jaipur, Agra and Delhi. Clearly the experience of war was very very different if you were living close to Pakistan that if you were far away.

Of course 1999 was totally different as conflicts go but once again for Parakram the border areas were tense. Now who will actually ask the people of the border areas what they think? Who will represent them? In India it is always the local poitician. The panchayat head and the local state MLA as well as the "Kings men" - the collector etc wo will have a pulse on what the people of the border areas feel. What do they say about peace and trade? Who will be abe to tell us?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2011 08:50

devesh wrote:Shiv ji, I'm really skeptical about "South Indians loving Pakistan until 2003". I have vivid memories from 90's where the issue of Pakistan was discussed with as visceral hatred as it ever was in any part of India. the people in the "border" states have more traumatic experiences than those living deeper in the country, but that hasn't stopped them from hating Pakis as much, if not more...


Devesh ji please do not misquote me Here is what i said:
On BRF in the early years I observed that it was mainly india's border states who understood and hated Pakistan and that other states - esp the South did not care or bother much


I did not say Pakistan was loved in South India. How come you gleaned that meaning from my words? There is an important difference. The intensity of hate and dislike were not felt as deeply in the South because the issue was far away. There as no terrorism, but plenty of economic strife. I base my observations from the 1960s by which time my eyes were open to Pakistan. The 1990s are recent - yesterday literally and by that time the media had informed India well. TV did not become widespread in India till the late 1970s.
Last edited by shiv on 07 Nov 2011 08:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby abhishek_sharma » 07 Nov 2011 08:51

So what is the advice of people who live in border regions? In particular, what is their preferred course of action after an event like 26/11?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Prem » 07 Nov 2011 08:54

My memory of 71 war is we heard that Paki have dropped "chatta fauji" in the neighborhood high school ground. Initially the people were taken back then some one mentioned lets go and get them. How many they can be and how many they can kill. So hundreds of us , young old , kids armed with you name it , went to take care of Poakers but alas could not find any one. Watched 2,3 dog fights from the rooftop though. Adam pur guys kicked Paki butt.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Prem » 07 Nov 2011 09:00

abhishek_sharma wrote:So what is the advice of people who live in border regions? In particular, what is their preferred course of action after an event like 26/11?


Many civlians did follow IA in last 2 major wars and paid visit deep into Pakiland. Has India taken lahore in 65 , good chance that civilians would have brought back half the wealth lost in 47. This time , almost every one has car or tractor so it will quick and easy to raid Paki towns and villages near the border. Best for Poaklurkers to move their families away from border as PA wont be able to protect them.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2011 09:04

abhishek_sharma wrote:So what is the advice of people who live in border regions? In particular, what is their preferred course of action after an event like 26/11?


That is what I am asking. It's not that their will is going to be implemented, but even to know what their needs and desires are we have to ask what the local politicians - panchayat leaders and local MLA's say.

Someone mentioned elections in Punjab. That was a very sensible statement. Of course elections in Punjab will reflect what people in Punjab feel. On average. But still the specific border issues will be known only to the border MLAs.

I think that people tend to forget two important consequences of democracy:
1. Indians are allowed to say aloud and demand absurd things - eg: that Kashmir be given away to Pakistan
2. But the very same democracy follows a constitution (not sharia) that does not allow the giving away of Kashmir. So even if all Indians vote for giving away Kashmir, the state cannot be given away until a bill is introduced and debated in Parliament to bring about a constitutional change to allow the giving away of Kashmir. And that bill has to be passed by a 2/3rd majority. Why such a bill will not go that far would take a whole thread to explain.

So when I see people on here foam and seethe at "anti-national" Indians I sometimes wonder about the degree of insight they have about India as a country. The same attitudes are common among the elite in a lot of issues and I find the same thing happening in local area meetings that i attend - with a complete lack of knowledge among the Tropicana/iPad elite about how government or even democracy works.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2011 09:16

Prem wrote: Many civlians did follow IA in last 2 major wars and paid visit deep into Pakiland. Has India taken lahore in 65 , good chance that civilians would have brought back half the wealth lost in 47. This time , almost every one has car or tractor so it will quick and easy to raid Paki towns and villages near the border. Best for Poaklurkers to move their families away from border as PA wont be able to protect them.


Prem this is a very interesting topic. Pukis know this well and that is why they have built very strong ditch cum bund defences to make it difficult for Indians to come across.

But poakis are idiots anyway. What they have done is to try and populate the border areas with retired faujis by giving them land. That means that non fauji poakis have already run inland hoping that retired faujis will hold the fort at the border. And we know what those retired Paki faujis did in previous wars. They produced illegitimate children by rape in Bangladesh and took a ride on Indian trains back to their beloved Pakhanaland.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby archan » 07 Nov 2011 09:23

RamaY and RajeshA (and any others, please self moderate). Let us not drink the kool aid of Pakistan = Islam and Islam = Pakistan. Many Indian Muslims would disagree with the paki misuse of Islam. So would those of many other parts of the world.
I strongly discourage your sentiments like
Attack everything Islam holds dear!

which I have edited out in your post. Disappointing, to say the least.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Altair » 07 Nov 2011 09:37

archan wrote:RamaY and RajeshA (and any others, please self moderate). Let us not drink the kool aid of Pakistan = Islam and Islam = Pakistan. Many Indian Muslims would disagree with the paki misuse of Islam. So would those of many other parts of the world.
I strongly discourage your sentiments like
Attack everything Islam holds dear!

which I have edited out in your post. Disappointing, to say the least.


I am sorry archan but you totally missed the point.


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