Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 2011

[SBajwa]

Could this Earthquake be nukes going off underground?

[saip]

Unlikely. 5.2 is too big.

[shiv]

Could this Earthquake be nukes going off underground?

Earthquakes have a seismic signature that is clearly distinguishable from a nuclear test.

[Altair]

Could this Earthquake be nukes going off underground?

Earthquakes have a seismic signature that is clearly distinguishable from a nuclear test.

I am assuming it can be measured by our seismic centers @ TIFR and differentiated?

[shiv]

National Geographic : Last Days of "Sheikh" Osama
Part 5/6

Part 6/6

Folks. These two are absolutely remarkable videos. Archive and save if you like. Either the animation of drone imagery is unbelievably good, or there is actual footage of the live action that was recorded. The smoke from gunshots. That man falling down dead, thrown back by the impact of shots - not acting, and the exact way the tail of the helo falls off (matches the size and angle seen in the photos after the event) seems too accurate to be animated. That also means that you can look at what these helos looked like from the outside - which presumably is not classified any more.

[SSridhar]

Russian power boost to Pakistan

Russia's Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has offered to invest “at least $500 million” in a Central Asian electricity project that will provide energy to Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Mr. Putin made the offer at a one-day meeting of the Prime Ministers of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation held in St. Petersburg on Monday.

“Russia is willing to commit at least $500 million into this project,” said Mr. Putin. “We could implement this project in a fairly short time and we propose intensifying work in this direction.”

Under the Central Asia-South Asia Electricity Trade and Transmission Project, CASA 1000, hydropower-rich Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan will export 1,000MW of electricity to power-deficit Afghanistan and Pakistan.

CASA-1000 is one of the projects that may be undertaken by a proposed energy club of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation.

“We support the idea of setting up the SCO energy club,” said Mr. Putin. He added that the decision to form the energy club had been approved.

[member_20018]

Folks. These two are absolutely remarkable videos. Archive and save if you like. Either the animation of drone imagery is unbelievably good, or there is actual footage of the live action that was recorded. The smoke from gunshots. That man falling down dead, thrown back by the impact of shots - not acting, and the exact way the tail of the helo falls off (matches the size and angle seen in the photos after the event) seems too accurate to be animated. That also means that you can look at what these helos looked like from the outside - which presumably is not classified any more.

more importantly, the footage which accompanies the narrative about the cia hiring out houses near OBLs compound, has a maruti suzuki van in it with the al kuwaiti brothers driving it. that footage is real and not a reenactment, and those are the REAL al kuwaiti brothers , as can be verified from the photos of their corpses. Fundoo!

[abhishek_sharma]

In this article, an American discusses many military scenarios involving Pakistan (and other countries).

This is interesting:

It is even possible that the United States might, depending on how the conflict began, consider trying to shoot down any missile launched from either side at the other, given the huge human and strategic perils associated with nuclear-armed missiles striking the great cities of South Asia.

[svinayak]

In this article, an American discusses many military scenarios involving Pakistan (and other countries).

This is interesting:

It is even possible that the United States might, depending on how the conflict began, consider trying to shoot down any missile launched from either side at the other, given the huge human and strategic perils associated with nuclear-armed missiles striking the great cities of South Asia.

THey have been wargaming this border for 50 years
This is a small border for them and with Pak kind of army and generals they are ready for anything

[parsuram]

As long as we are revisiting paki wars, I was away from home in 65 (Punjab, Kapurthala, about 60 miles from Lahore border), at IIT Kharagpur, WB (about 100 miles from the EPaki border). As it happened, I and my classmates saw IAF bring down two F86 Sabers from our classroom windows at about 10:30 AM, when that PAF garbage came to attack Kalaikunda AF base. (thermo test was in progress, and a part of war's absurdity sticks with me, with our lecturar yelling: "no talking, no talking" as we all went out to the corridor to see the action. The war became very real. I was worried for my mother, with no phone, but could do nothing. I sent a telegram to let her know I was OK. As it happened, she knew nothing of the attack in Bengal, and did not get my telegram anyway. '71 was different. I was in Canada, gradute school. As it happened, I was sharing an apartment with two pakjubi room mates. One of them turned on me, damn near chocked me to death when Dhaka surrendered. Found out what the pakjabi is made of under a thin veneer of civilization.

Parsuram, I was in IIT KGP in 65.

My wingmates (RK Hall) and I bunked classes and were on the boundary of Kalaikunda when the 11AM attack took place. The second dogfight took place at low level. We could see the faces of the pilots. Everything then was in slowmo. The look of surprise on the Paki pilot's face when the Hunter in front of him vanished by a deft, quick, unbelievable manoeuvre. The realisation that the Hunter was no longer the hunted, as he had thought.

Cannon holes being lazily stitched across the Paki's port wing. Brass cannon shell casings lazily drifting from under the Hunter, glinting in the sun. Then the sudden ball of orange flame. Followed by the sound of the explosion, the shock, and the screaming engine as the Paki tried to level his craft. The final orange and black explosion as the F86 hit the ground a couple of miles away. The hunter lazily following, turning and racing off.

Not to forget that we were screaming our heads off at the Paki, using the choicest collection of IIT invective in various indic languages.

We were the first to reach there. The horror of seeing the pilot's body in pieces. I picked up a couple of cannon shells as souvenirs. And a lot of IIT went and scavenged that a/c!

Rajan EE/68

Ranjan: Yes, I am sure we were both at that crash site that afternoon back in 1965. My friend Lahiri was the one who rented a rickshaw, came there and carried away that machine gun. I just got a bunch of electronics with USAF markings. The crash site was a horror scene, with bodies of the family whose hut was destroyed by the Sabre. My cousin was in RK Hall, came the following year (Ravinder Datta ChE71), you might have known him. As a PS, MPs from Kalaikunda came through the next few days, going room to room at the campus and collected all the souveniors the students collected. They put the fear of god in me as I handed over every thing I had.

shiv ji: You made an excellent point about not all Indian citizens having the same perception of the paki based on personal and shared experiences. India is a vast land, despite the paki having taken so much of it, and there are regions of India far removed from the paki and its barbaric actions. There would therefore be peoples with little experience of the pakis terrorist activities. But over time, and certainly after Mumbai, I think most, if not all Indians are aware of what the paki stands for. The wars of 65, 71 and Kargil did contribute to a perception of paki reality that slowly percolated to almost all Indians. Yet, there are those from Punjab and Bengal who have first hand experience of paki society which far out dates 1947. Those perceptions will never be experienced by the non Muslim societies of India. I am going to pass on some of those from my family, and I cannot think of a more appropriate forum than this dedicated to "Terrorist Republic of Pakistan"

My paternal grandmother's family came from Pathan dominated parts of the paki, Peshawar stretching out to Kabul, and as was common in those parts and times, it was part Hindu and part Sikh in composition, as was my maternal side of the family as well. My maternal grandmother was from the village of Zaffarwal, in the wild, sparsely populated part of West Punjab, close to the east bank of the Sindhu. It was mostly desert at that time. My maternal grandfather was a civil engineer who worked on planning and building the extensive canal network that went in those parts. Both my mother and grandmother told me that girls and women did not go out in public alone there at any time, and not after dark if at all they could help it. Out side the home, girls and women stayed fully covered as far as possible. Hindus and Sikhs were about 10% of the population, and abduction of their unaccompanied girls and women was common. Muslim men would abduct such females, rape and marry them, then convert them to islam. The incidents were common place enough that they were not reported in any serious way (the girls/women having "asked for it"). The practice was of long standing (was "always like this")- I got the impression that it went back to the time of muslim invasions, gazni, ghori et al. Listening to these tales in the refugee colonies of Delhi, as a young teenager, I got shivers down my back. Suddenly, Delhi seemed very comforting. It was hard to imagine that I was less than two generations removed from those times. My maternal grandfather died of a stroke in 1935, on the outskirts of Lyalpur, and my grandmother was left to raise her four youngest children. My mother was the eldest of them, and just 13 at that time. My grandmother was very self resilient, self assured, and determined. She told me that she was not allowed to cry publicly on the death of her husband, only place she could was in the bathroom. Her youngest 4, like the older 3, turned out well, two women school principals, a cardiac pathologist, and a under sec. at the Education ministry. But that was no place and time for women in India. Both my grandmother and mother have passed away. Now, telling these stories of the life they lived at the edge of Hindu civilization brings back memories of the tales I heard from them. If relating the horror they grew up with will give a little bit of understanding to the women of India to what the paki represents, then it would have been worth it. It will be hard to imagine for the rest of those women what it was like to grow up knowing that you could disappear at any time, which those friends and relatives you no longer meet may be under any one of those burkhas you see. You can understand the relief that they felt living in Delhi, or Bangalore, or Mumbai etc., and also their instinctive glance behind them that they lived with for the rest of their lives. And you can better understand why they felt that making paki stan was just as well. Your post brought all that back to me in a rush, and though it may be OT (I don’t think so, but will let admin decide) it needs to be told.

[habal]

In this article, an American discusses many military scenarios involving Pakistan (and other countries).

This is interesting:

It is even possible that the United States might, depending on how the conflict began, consider trying to shoot down any missile launched from either side at the other, given the huge human and strategic perils associated with nuclear-armed missiles striking the great cities of South Asia.

it seems they have a plan to model the Pakistani sarkari jehadis like LeT/JeM in the mould of the Benghazi rebels, who will ride into Delhi in Jeeps/SUVs. If some so-called jihadi with a liberal mask comes to power in pakistan and if they think he has some positive vibes in India, then they could carry out this stunt.

Which also means that the slew of 'Aman ki Asha' type moves in media are being sourced via US embassy.

Also makes it clear why likes of TSJones, Tim Hoyt are deathly scared of India's ICBM capability or even mere mention of it. It hampers slightly future possibilities of mischief-making.

[rajanb]

^^^ Nice to meet you Parsuram.

To add to the incident, while we cycled to the crash site over the bumpy fields, the conversation centred around what we would do if we found the Paki alive. To wait for the MPs? This met with a a strong unanimous no.

At the site we saw the charred bodies of a woman and child, the hut still smouldering and assumed that the fuel fire would have been akin to a blanket of napalm. We picked up our shell souvenirs, not touching anything else, since we felt that the remnants maybe of use to the IAF. Not even the transparent plastic packet of rations, marked boldly with insignia of the USAF.

Astounding that the pure Pakis could not cobble up their own homegrown survival rations! Wryly did one mate remark "This probably makes them feel more of a super power, like their masters, the Americans!"

On the way out across the fields we came across the IAF jeep racing in our general direction and they were astounded when we told them that we were from IIT and that the pilot was dead and dismembered. They raced on and we raced back to the hostel in time for our (ugh) lunch.

The other two notable incidents we saw, was of one Hunter landing without engine power!

The second was higher up. A Hunter and an F86 circling each other 180 degrees apart. Warily. Suddenly the Hunter raced and banked sharply and he must have fired as the F86 was spewing smoke and spiraling downward in what seemed an accelerating, uncontrollable spin. The Hunter watched, but did not follow him, so convincing were the "death throes". Then all of a sudden the F86 flattened out and raced to the IIT tower. Oops we thought "Hope the joker hasn't a bomb left to drop on IIT. From our line of sight he was headed for our main building! Then he veered to port and raced off.

These incidents only strengthend my view of our pilots being top class, brave and gutsy guys. Having spent a lot of time with them on the ground, and witnessed their bravado and sense of humour, we realised that they carried that bravado and possibly also their sense of humour into their cockpits.

Hope all this is not OT for the thread, mods. If so apologies.

[Aditya_V]

National Geographic : Last Days of "Sheikh" Osama
Part 5/6

Folks. These two are absolutely remarkable videos. Archive and save if you like. Either the animation of drone imagery is unbelievably good, or there is actual footage of the live action that was recorded. The smoke from gunshots. That man falling down dead, thrown back by the impact of shots - not acting, and the exact way the tail of the helo falls off (matches the size and angle seen in the photos after the event) seems too accurate to be animated. That also means that you can look at what these helos looked like from the outside - which presumably is not classified any more.

Does this mean that apart from Helos, some national birds also penerated Paki airspace and came back while Fizzle Ya slept?

[rajanb]

Quite obvious that these videos don't tell the complete story which would have made it more accurate. And the reasons are understandable.

BTW, what happened to the scrambled F16s? Did the US threaten to unscramble them and sent the Paki pilots back to their bedtime story time?

[Philip]

Pak now wants to turn the clock back and resume its Khalisntani perfidy.I'm sure that India can also shake the dust off old files dating back from Mrs.G's time and complete the unfinished task of dismembering Pak into more manageable little pieces.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/paki ... 58720.html

Pakistan's Plan For Khalistan
ISI-backed gunmen revive a dead dream

India's most wanted Khalistan terrorist lives in plush military style quarters, adjoining Lahore's Allama Iqbal International Airport. Wadhawa Singh Babbar remains busy plotting carnage against his home country with his Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) hosts. The 65-year-old grey-bearded head of perhaps the deadliest Khalistani terror group, Babbar Khalsa International (BKI), along with his ISI minders, remains engaged in trying to revive the long-defeated Khalistan movement in Punjab. On the walls surrounding his operations centre are detailed section maps not only of Punjab but also of adjoining north Indian states that are the BKI's extended battlefield. Like chess pawns, multi-coloured pins are moved around on these maps, marking potential targets.

With ISI-sponsored militant groups in comparative disarray in Kashmir, Pakistan's long-stated ambition of "inflicting death by a thousand cuts" on its larger neighbour is being pursued through well-funded and equipped Khalistani groups. Their deadly intent was evident in the seizure on October 12 of an RDX cargo in Ambala, Haryana. Recent events in Punjab have rejuvenated militant Sikh groups. In 2007, there were sectarian clashes between Sikhs and followers of the breakaway Sacha Sauda sect. More recently, there was widespread public indignation over the rejection of the mercy petititon of Devinderpal Singh Bhullar. Bhullar faces a death sentence for killing nine persons in an attempt on former Youth Congress chief Maninderjeet Singh Bitta in 1993.

The radical fringe is seeking three things. It wants retribution for Operation Bluestar-the Indian Army's attack on Amritsar's Golden Temple in June 1984 to flush out terrorists hiding inside the holy shrine. It wants to avenge the mass killing of over 3,000 Sikhs following Indira Gandhi's assassination four months later. It believes that the only definition of "justice" is secession from India. "Sikhs cannot be compelled to live under alien rule," says a former militant, who is confident of "dying in Khalistan."

This is an excerpt from India Today Cover Story dated November 14, 2011. To read more, subscribe to the magazine.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/paki ... 58720.html

Pak doctor's fake vaccine campaign led US to Osama bin Laden

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/paki ... 56841.html

How the duplicitous Pakis betrayed Bin laden.

[parsuram]

rajanb: At risk of irritating admin beyond some red line, lets conclude our discussion of exciting times for a couple of 17 yr olds experiencing IAF/paf conflict, one that emphasized the almost casual superiority of IAF pilots over the likes of paf pilot"Afzal"(whose helmet, complete with his head enclosed, was lying at the crash site where his Sabre jet met mother India on the ground. Perhaps real, first hand combat experiences (of combatants/non combatatants) can find a thread to be parked at. And these would add to the lore of Indian fighting men and women. I am glad we were there to witnes a fraction of that first hand.

[parsuram]

Phillip: I would not give this story any more circulation that it already has received. The unvarnished fact is that the Sikh community is so deeply integrated in the rapidly expanding Indian economy that the broader Sikh community offers the most active and strong defense against the khali - stanis. (khali being the operative word, referring to the status of the space between the ears of these idiots). Besides, the amount of space given to the atrocities comitted against the sikh community by muslims in Sikh religeous literature can never be wiped out by a single mistake by Indira gandhi - who paid for it with her life, so the chapter is closed.

[nachiket]

rajanb: At risk of irritating admin beyond some red line, lets conclude our discussion of exciting times for a couple of 17 yr olds experiencing IAF/paf conflict, one that emphasized the almost casual superiority of IAF pilots over the likes of paf pilot"Afzal"(whose helmet, complete with his head enclosed, was lying at the crash site where his Sabre jet met mother India on the ground. Perhaps real, first hand combat experiences (of combatants/non combatatants) can find a thread to be parked at. And these would add to the lore of Indian fighting men and women. I am glad we were there to witnes a fraction of that first hand.

^^Guys, you can continue discussing in Nukkad. No need to end it. I for one would like to hear any other wartime experiences that you may have had.

[Philip]

Parsuram,I agree with you that the mainstream Sikh community have no desire for Khalistan,but our mortal enemy as the report says,experiencing difficulties in supporting J & K terrorism,is trying to revive the K project,by using the differences existing between some elements of the Sikh community.That mischief has to be nipped in the bud.

[parsuram]

nachiketa: Thanks. rajanb, If you want to add anything, we can chk on that thread.

[parsuram]

Phillip: The differences have always been there. But those have nothing to do with demanding some "khili-stan". The basis, as usual, is economic, though it is couched in castist, racist terms. I do believe that the quickest resolution can also be economic. I had suggested at the thick of it that GOI should grant large land grants to the affected people - in Kashmir. That will give those Sikhs a stake in keeping Kashmir in India, and drive a wedge between the islamists and the sikh community in Kashmir.

[rajanb]

Parsuram and Nachiket: Thanks. Nukkad where we swap info on bravery while I chew on my mental magai mitha.

Thanks Mods for being lenient.

[JE Menon]

>>Phillip: I would not give this story any more circulation that it already has received.

I would agree with Parsuram in his general observation, and also with Phillip that the perfidy of our evil neighbour should be recorded and reinforced in the minds of the general public.

As Ramana said quite simply and eloquently before "We are all Punjabis", and this could be extended to add that we are all "we are all Haryanvis, we are all Tamils, we are all Mallus, etc", because we are all Indians. And this is reflected in a tiny way even by the choice of handle by "parsuram", which I as a Mallu can specifically appreciate.

So while the particular discussion of experiences in the wars may be discontinued in this thread, please do take it to an appropriate thread elsewhere so that we can collectively savour the individual experience.

[Rahul M]

parasuram ji and rajan ji, your reminiscences are quite valuable. would you mind x-posting them to IAF history thread for posterity ?

[shiv]

parasuram ji and rajan ji, your reminiscences are quite valuable. would you mind x-posting them to IAF history thread for posterity ?

+1 to that.

Those are invaluable accounts of history. I wanted to comment on the stories but will do if someone cross posts them Why don;t you do that Rahul?

[parsuram]

MUST WATCH FOR ALL KHALI-STANIS

[parsuram]

shiv ji: I have a narrative for you in a post above.

[ManjaM]

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/203 ... -down.html

Four Hindu doctors gunned down in Pak

The doctors were gunned down yesterday at their clinic in Chak town close to Shikarpur.
Dr Ramesh Kumar, a former member of provincial assembly and chief patron of Pakistan Hindu Council, confirmed that Dr Ashok, Dr Naresh, Dr Ajeet and Dr Satia Paul were killed by armed assailants while working in their clinic.

"This is not the first time such an incident has taken place where members of our community have been targeted. What is of concern is that the law enforcement agencies tend to support the criminals involved in such acts," Dr Kumar told PTI.

"There is a strong population of around 50,000 Hindus in Chak so for such an incident to happen is bad and the government must take notice of it and provide protection to the minorities," Kumar demanded.

Police said they had arrested two of the people involved in the killings and were searching for the other culprits.

A police official confirmed that the killings could have been the result of a dispute between some Hindus and the local Bhaya Baradari that took place two weeks back over a Hindu girl.
Kumar said minorities were well protected and secure military strongman Pervez Musharraf was the president but now they had become prey to open terrorism and crime.

Condemning the murders, the Pakistan Hindu Council appealed to President Asif Zardari, the Chief Justice of Pakistan and the Army chief to take note of the targeting of Hindus in parts of Sindh.

[Pratyush]

Well the question I have, is how can a Hindu become a Doctor in Pak-is-satan?


Is this the Pakistan the founding fathers of TSP had in mind. Or are we going to see a sick justification as to why the four doctors had to die.

[Lalmohan]

didnt the karachi killings often target doctors because they were mostly shia?
in this case, these four men were probably the most prominent members of the community - message is being sent to shut them up
its about time a humanitarian disaster was declared in pakistan about their treatment of minorities

[rajanb]

Rahul ji, Parsuram ji and Shiv ji: Have posted in the IAF History thread (including your first post Parsuram ji)

[parsuram]

I believe Hindus, Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists hostages of the Paki (that is what those residents of that place are) should be offered open asylum in India.

PS Thank you Rajan, will add.

[abhijitm]

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/203 ... -down.html

Condemning the murders, the Pakistan Hindu Council appealed to President Asif Zardari, the Chief Justice of Pakistan and the Army chief to take note of the targeting of Hindus in parts of Sindh.

Whats the point in contacting official parallel power centers in pakistan when those are controlled and run by unofficial powers.

[A_Gupta]

Foiled plot.
http://arabnews.com/world/article530796.ece

[SSridhar]

Foiled plot.
http://arabnews.com/world/article530796.ece

There has been no other report on this.

[Dilbu]

Militants blow up girls school in Mardan

MARDAN: Militants detonated a high school for girls in Derai district of Katlang, on the outskirts of district Mardan, late Monday night.

Sources said the school’s status was recently upgraded from middle to high school and added that it was the only high school for girls in the area.

[shiv]

Earthquakes have a seismic signature that is clearly distinguishable from a nuclear test.

I am assuming it can be measured by our seismic centers @ TIFR and differentiated?

Altair - Even untrained mards like us can tell the difference with some practice. Of course the graph needs to show the right type of waves - which seem to come in different types. BRFite vsunder had actually done an analysis .

Of course India has the seismic centers to detect that but even someone in Somalia can know because there is a worldwide set of monitors and anyone with net access can see the waves produced. A nuke test is a single spike. An earthquake is a much more prolonged disturbance with a number of aftershocks. Basically a nuke is "BLAM!" and an earthquake is "Rumblerumble"

[Dilbu]

MFN status granted, implementation needed: Khar

New Delhi: Pakistan Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar on Tuesday said there was no confusion over granting the most favoured nation (MFN) status to India and informed that Commerce Secretaries of the two countries will meet this month.

"In principle MFN has been issued, but bureaucracy needs to work to implement it. We are moving in right directions," said Khar.

"We need to have mutually beneficial trade relations," she said.

[shiv]

shiv ji: I have a narrative for you in a post above.

Parsuram. I read that and I think it needs to be cross posted and preserved along with rajanb's post.You too have made a valuable documentation of history. Seeing two old codgers of around my age posting stuff like this makes me feel we could have a dedicated long running thread for personal narratives. I had (a long time ago on BR) had a rant about the accusation that Indians do not record history.

Actually that is rubbish. The Indian record of history is in the form of memes and narratives. There is no basis to the argument that a meme or narrative is any less accurate that written history a la Al Beruni/Huen Tsiang (sp?) simply because at some time or the other history is always a narrative from memory.

[shiv]

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/203 ... -down.html

Condemning the murders, the Pakistan Hindu Council appealed to President Asif Zardari, the Chief Justice of Pakistan and the Army chief to take note of the targeting of Hindus in parts of Sindh.

Whats the point in contacting official parallel power centers in pakistan when those are controlled and run by unofficial powers.

Noises made by the MEA and WKK seem to suggest that they are trying to exploit a split between these parallel power centers.