Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 2011

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3021
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Dipanker » 18 Nov 2011 20:37

shravan wrote:It looks like the Pakistani Army is having their asses handed to them by the Taliban in South Waziristan (Video)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=43b_1321496997


Hopefully in long term the Taliban will be able to takeover Pakistan so that the Pakis can experience the Taliban rule firsthand which they so much want to impose in Afghanistan.
Last edited by Dipanker on 18 Nov 2011 20:55, edited 1 time in total.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Lalmohan » 18 Nov 2011 20:38

shiv - i suspect that behind closed doors and over chai biskoot - the paquis have figured out that cashmere aint happening, and whats more the paquis don't even want it to happen. once it does the raisin d'eater is all gone - what will motivate the masses then?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54246
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby ramana » 18 Nov 2011 21:10

Shiv, The Hussain Haqqani -Masur Ijaz epsiode shows a coup was staved off.
TSPA wanted to blame 10% for their inaptness in Abortabad and takeover, just as Mushy blamed Badmash for the NLI downhill skiing and launched a coup in 1999.

Now 10% is selling HH down the river. Dont cry for him as he will find greener ($ not Islamist) pastures in massa where his wife is high functionary.

So HH quits, TSPA H&D restored. 10% still in chair.

All iz well.

archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6821
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby archan » 18 Nov 2011 21:12

Lalmohan wrote:shiv - i suspect that behind closed doors and over chai biskoot - the paquis have figured out that cashmere aint happening, and whats more the paquis don't even want it to happen. once it does the raisin d'eater is all gone - what will motivate the masses then?

New slogan for paki military: "Pakistan armed forces: making asses out of masses"

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23835
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby SSridhar » 18 Nov 2011 21:23

ramana wrote:. . . 10% still in chair.

Ramana, for how long is the question now. Not for long appears to be the answer.

rajsunder
BRFite
Posts: 619
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 02:38
Location: MASA Land

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby rajsunder » 18 Nov 2011 21:39

Prem wrote:Build trust, put Kashmir on back burner: Imran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJvomNq_0vs

same drama by every wana be president of porkistan. nothing new. You would know what he truly believes only after he becomes elected

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22173
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby chetak » 18 Nov 2011 22:56

rajsunder wrote:
Prem wrote:Build trust, put Kashmir on back burner: Imran
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJvomNq_0vs

same drama by every wana be president of porkistan. nothing new. You would know what he truly believes only after he becomes elected


No real need for that, saar.

This creep is no friend of India and he never was. He's strictly bad news.

member_19648
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby member_19648 » 18 Nov 2011 23:31

chetak wrote:
No real need for that, saar.

This creep is no friend of India and he never was. He's strictly bad news.


That is a favorite punchline with the Pakis. If they don't have water, blame it on India, we want kashmir, if they don't have electricity, blame it on India,we want kashmir. It's like the experiment with monkeys, they don't know why they want Kashmir but they know they have to have it. Successive generations of Pakis exploit it to fool their own ilk and rise to power. But they also know their wet dream is just that, a wet dream, never to get fulfilled.

The Pakis are like a virulent breed of tumor and that's why the abscission was done to them. But what irks me is the mentality of GOI to not treat the Pakis as a separate entity, somehow Pakis are an exception. If some other country would even dare to do 10% of what the Pakis have done, I am sure, they would face massive retaliation. But why this dilemma in considering Pakis as a separate entity. If it is like this, the hand would shiver while pulling the trigger at the Pakis when the time comes. India needs to cut herself off from the Paki influence. Let's ignore them and let them cry, howl, beg whatever they do, while India grows. Yes they would try to get attention through terrorism but all efforts should be channeled towards neutralizing such threats. Let the Pakis be a separate entity and then when they really try to cross the line, let them meet the same fate as any other rogue would meet and be treated by the same standard! Its difficult though considering the shared past, but not impossible, let not emotions drive the foreign policy towards the Pakis but cold, hard facts/evidence and a cool frame of mind. We can't afford to stay in contact with the tumor spreading contagion all around that we once pledged to remove.

Manny
BRFite
Posts: 846
Joined: 07 Apr 2006 22:16
Location: Texas

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Manny » 19 Nov 2011 00:25

In some part of Africa, the way they catch a monkey is, tie a bottle to a tree where the neck of the bottle is just the right size for a monkey to put its paw inside. Then either put some salt or some pumpkin seeds inside the bottle and wait.

The money desiring whats inside slides its paw into the bottle and grabs handful of what it desires. But when he tries to get his paw out, he can't. All the monkey has to do is drop what he has in his paw and escape. Now, you go and get the money. But the monkey is too stupid and too greedy to leave what he desires behind.

The monkey would rather die there with his hand stuck to that bottle than let go off what he is stealing and live!

Pakistan is that monkey.

Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Satya_anveshi » 19 Nov 2011 00:49

Shiv avure,

shiv wrote:My reading (of news posted on here and other sources) suggest that the GoI plan for Pakistan is at least in part based on "hope"

The government of India has no policy. None whatsoever. We know that and this non policy is getting support on here only because Karnad has been bought off.


let's decide whether current actions by GOI are a "policy of hope" (however flawed) or "no policy. none whatsoever."

Also, I don't know who else is supporting Karnad's prescription here but if my points comes out that way, I wish to clarify that my few posts have nothing to do with his statement at all.

Both SSji and Guptaji have kind of arrived at a dead end (pardon me if I misunderstood your conclusions) and suggested (words to the effect that) there is nothing we can do other than wish/hope/aid that pak goes away, which we know ain't happening soon. meanwhile initiatives are being snatched by others. I am thinking of a position that just as threats are real and unpredictable, our defensive build up should remain and strengthen as is. Is being militarily prepared and trying to do business and develop dependencies(however small and unreliable today) really mutually exclusive? As to power of moderates (or certain constituencies), it is but self evident that there existed (in 71)/exist (KP, BC stan and others) powerful enough constituencies that broke or wish to break the country into several pieces.

anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8280
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby anupmisra » 19 Nov 2011 01:25

Manny wrote:Pakistan is that monkey.


And, in this fable, what does the bottle represent? Cashmere? India?

chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby chaanakya » 19 Nov 2011 02:00

anupmisra wrote:
Manny wrote:Pakistan is that monkey.


And, in this fable, what does the bottle represent? Cashmere? India?

Its China

MurthyB
BRFite
Posts: 704
Joined: 18 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: "Visa Officer", Indian Consulate #13,451, Khost Province, Afghanistan

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby MurthyB » 19 Nov 2011 02:19

chaanakya wrote:
Manny wrote:Pakistan is that monkey.


And, in this fable, what does the bottle represent? Cashmere? India?
Its China


Sometimes BR is so ahead of the curve that it comes around, like Hanuman's tail curving around the entire universe and rejoining itself...

Rangudu
BRFite
Posts: 1751
Joined: 03 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Rangudu » 19 Nov 2011 02:24

Rishi wrote:BBM transcript of Hussain Haqqani and Mansoor Ijaz chats re:Memogate:
http://t.co/qdTj73yu


Amidst all the chatter, I found this line in the BBM chat allegedly between Ijaz and H.Haqqani to be interesting:

MI: By the way, I know a lot more than you give me credit for about the circumstances that led to May 1 and your role in all that. Just FYI


So Ijaz is saying that Haqqani actually played a role in the Abortabad op i.e. perhaps tipping off Unkil. Now, this is pure speculation but the news of the memo has been out for weeks, so why is Kayani making a fuss about it all of a sudden? Did the locations of other key assets like S.Haqqani or Mulla Omar get to Unkil recently?

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby RajeshA » 19 Nov 2011 02:29

anupmisra wrote:
Manny wrote:Pakistan is that monkey.


And, in this fable, what does the bottle represent? Cashmere? India?

The pumpkin seed is definitely Pakistan's desire to conquer the Hindus. The bottle is the Jihadism that it let loose. That was the only way Pakistan saw, of how to remain united and to terrorize the Hindu. It cannot opt out of Jihadism now.

The question is who is the monkey-catcher? And what will the monkey-catcher do with the monkey?

It seems to me, that USA and PRC have always been the monkey-catchers. But instead of doing the monkey any harm, they are applying some healing balm to the monkey's hand, where the bottle seems to giving the monkey a bit of a wound.

The only chance for us is if we, the Pumpkin seeds, we can infuse some poison into the monkey's hand and kill it. The monkey-keepers are using the monkey for their own monkey-business and letting the monkey squeezer us, the poor pumpkin seeds.
Last edited by RajeshA on 19 Nov 2011 03:26, edited 1 time in total.

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13108
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby negi » 19 Nov 2011 02:41

I can bet my hairy musharraf on the fact that now that signs of TSP economy going down in toilet are very clear and the 3.5 have kind of gone back into their shells it will be the uber land of chankians who will go out of the way to infuse some life in this cadaverous state. As far as TSPA is concerned cashmere and terrorism have kind of taken back seat for the time being (at least that is the general impression being created/projected in media and elsewhere) but the fact is it's the sorry state of their economy and decrease in number of khota sikkas from the 3.5 which has resulted in this apparent softening of former's stance. Any other country ruled by sane ones would have capitalized on this opportunity and assumed an aggressive posture on ground in order to push the adversary's military industrial complex into an overdrive there by increasing the load on it's economy however here we are issuing visitor visas to facilitate infiltration and talking about CBMs when the need is to keep up the pressure. Even if such chootiy@p@ buys us temporary peace the fact that TSPA's dependence on 'hate India/Hindus' to survive would mean they will be back to their old ways once the situation improves in TSP.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11638
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby A_Gupta » 19 Nov 2011 03:56

Satya_anveshi, inadvertently strengthening your enemy is not good strategy, simply out of the need to "do something" or to "take the initiative". Ultimately, without constant infusions of cash from outside, Pakistan cannot win a cold war with India. India needs to slowly and surely make sure that support for Pakistan by a 3rd party has consequences like support for Taiwan by a 3rd party.

There was even an op-ed in the New York Times that argued that US should give up all support for Taiwan in return for a trillion dollar debt forgiveness by China. That is a consequence of constantly snarling and increasing their fighting weight class by China. The current seeming impossibility of absorbing Taiwan has never deterred China. Maybe there are some Chinese strategists who argue that China should abandon its Taiwan dreams.

National will has to express itself as a force over decades.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21143
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Prem » 19 Nov 2011 04:53

http://www.cfr.org/pakistan/campaign-20 ... tan/p26547

Campaign 2012: Pakistan
[youtube]aIe1_Qw4_-Q&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21143
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Prem » 19 Nov 2011 04:55

http://www.cfr.org/interactives/CG_Pakistan/
Crisis Guide: Pakistan
Jayshree Bajoria
Senior Staff Writer

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21143
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Prem » 19 Nov 2011 05:02

Lifafa Man

Islam Offers a Third Way in Pakistan and Tunisia: Pankaj Mishra
Nov. 18 (Bloomberg) -- During the worldwide depression of the mid-1930s, the poet and Islamic modernist Muhammad Iqbal, often called Pakistan’s spiritual founder, wrote a poem dramatizing the inadequacies of Western political and economic systems.Democracy and capitalism had empowered a privileged elite in the name of the people, Iqbal felt. But he was not much fonder of Marxism, which was then coming into vogue among anti- colonial activists across South Asia and the Middle East:But what’s the answer to the mischief of that wise Jew That Moses without light, that cross-less Jesus Not a prophet, but with a book under his arm For what could be more dangerous than this That the serfs uproot the tents of their mastersConfronted with extreme inequality and corrupt Westernized elites, many Muslim thinkers had already begun to present Islam as a guarantee of social justice. Setting up the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt in 1928, Hassan al-Banna advocated the redistribution of wealth, and a crackdown on venal politicians and businessmen.Like al-Banna, Iqbal believed that the Prophet had transmitted the blueprint for a just society centuries before Marx -- “the wise Jew” -- worked it out in the British Museum. And he remained confident that after the ruling elites of capitalism and socialism had lost credibility, “the message of the Prophet might appear again.”Iqbal considered the idea of a classless society, in which the rich were custodians rather than owners of property, to be morally superior to socialism as well as capitalism:Protector of women’s honor, tester of men A message of death for all sorts of slavery Undivided amongst kings and beggars Cleans the wealth of all its filth Makes the rich the custodians of riches What could be greater than this revolution? Not to kings but to God belongs the land.I have been thinking of Iqbal’s lines in recent weeks as the Islamist democrats of Rashid Ghannouchi’s Ennahdha party triumphed in Tunisia’s first free elections in years, and the cricketer-turned-politician Imran Khan -- declared by Pew Research Center to be the most popular political figure in Pakistan -- staged a huge rally in Lahore, staking his first serious claim to power.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2011 06:10

Manny wrote:In some part of Africa, the way they catch a monkey is, tie a bottle to a tree where the neck of the bottle is just the right size for a monkey to put its paw inside. Then either put some salt or some pumpkin seeds inside the bottle and wait.

The money desiring whats inside slides its paw into the bottle and grabs handful of what it desires. But when he tries to get his paw out, he can't. All the monkey has to do is drop what he has in his paw and escape. Now, you go and get the money. But the monkey is too stupid and too greedy to leave what he desires behind.

The monkey would rather die there with his hand stuck to that bottle than let go off what he is stealing and live!

Pakistan is that monkey.


I presume you have read this. It appeared on BR in 2002
The Monkey Trap: A synopsis of Indo-Pak relations

a_bharat
BRFite
Posts: 655
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 09:54

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby a_bharat » 19 Nov 2011 06:46

I was perplexed with the way US had been dealing with Pakistan. I wasn't convinced with explanations such as stupidity, inertia and impotence. The following quote from the above posted monkey trap article and Leon Panetta's freudian slip that India is an emerging threat make it clear why the US behaves the way it does when it comes to TSP.

Pakistan, a nuclear armed "moderate" Islamic state, controlled or influenced by the US a la Egypt or Turkey, and a potential check on Indian, Iranian, Russian and Chinese influence in Central Asia is a tempting ally.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2011 06:55

a_bharat wrote:I was perplexed with the way US had been dealing with Pakistan. I wasn't convinced with explanations such as stupidity, inertia and impotence. The following quote from the above posted monkey trap article and Leon Panetta's freudian slip that India is an emerging threat make it clear why the US behaves the way it does when it comes to TSP.

Pakistan, a nuclear armed "moderate" Islamic state, controlled or influenced by the US a la Egypt or Turkey, and a potential check on Indian, Iranian, Russian and Chinese influence in Central Asia is a tempting ally.


Bharat - this is well known. I am suprised you found out now. Only the incompetence/weakness is recent. The big "ally" that was used against the Soviets and their side-kick India through the 60s and 70s is out of US control.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21143
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby Prem » 19 Nov 2011 07:01


symontk
BRFite
Posts: 904
Joined: 01 Nov 2001 12:31
Location: Bangalore

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby symontk » 19 Nov 2011 07:12

The currently enforced official curriculum, duly authorized by the Curriculum Wing of the Ministry of Education, Government of Pakistan. According to this document, at the completion of Class-V, the child should be able to:
Acknowledge and identify forces that may be working against Pakistan. [pg 154]
Know India's evil designs against Pakistan. [pg154]
Make speeches on Jehad and Shahadat [pg154]
Be safe from rumor mongers who spread false news [pg158] [19] .


From the Monkey trap synopsis

Things like the ones above will make every child a politician and not encourage them to do other things which are also useful to the society. It also makes clear that why Pakistan doesn't excel in anything except politices. (Jihad / terrorism are also politics in different forms)


menon s
BRFite
Posts: 718
Joined: 01 May 2010 09:51
Location: Bangalore

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby menon s » 19 Nov 2011 07:38

The BBM between Hussain haqqani and Mansoor Ijaz . gives a perspective ,

MI: But if they all suck, then what did we save — a sinking ship that was going to sink anyway???
HH: And there is a genetic problem at that end, predisposed to going round and round in circles
MI: Yup!! That’s for damn sure
HH: I think we save the situation from an extremely violent outcome
MI: How can you solve the problems you understand so well from here if all the people in charge over there are wrong? It’s only one year til we have a change in the US. Then you really won’t like who we have here!
HH: I mean, Iran might have done better if the Shah had been saved AND some true reform introduced
HH: Actually, I think the new ppl here might be better to deal with
HH: They won’t take lies easily
MI: Don’t bet on it. We have a lot of extremists cropping up and seeping into the system
MI: They don’t trust anything Pakistani
MI: Don’t matter what it is
HH: Well, in that case find me a cheap piece of beach :)
MI: Cain, Romney (who hates Muslims), Perry — its all the same crap
MI: Hmmmmm, yes, I can arrange that
MI: Why is Z such an idiot?
HH: But don’t go off writing opeds abt arranging piece of beach w’out consulting first :P
HH: HaHa! Tough question

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23835
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby SSridhar » 19 Nov 2011 07:48

negi wrote:I can bet my hairy musharraf on the fact that now that signs of TSP economy going down in toilet are very clear and the 3.5 have kind of gone back into their shells it will be the uber land of chankians who will go out of the way to infuse some life in this cadaverous state. As far as TSPA is concerned cashmere and terrorism have kind of taken back seat for the time being (at least that is the general impression being created/projected in media and elsewhere) but the fact is it's the sorry state of their economy and decrease in number of khota sikkas from the 3.5 which has resulted in this apparent softening of former's stance. Any other country ruled by sane ones would have capitalized on this opportunity and assumed an aggressive posture on ground in order to push the adversary's military industrial complex into an overdrive there by increasing the load on it's economy however here we are issuing visitor visas to facilitate infiltration and talking about CBMs when the need is to keep up the pressure. Even if such chootiy@p@ buys us temporary peace the fact that TSPA's dependence on 'hate India/Hindus' to survive would mean they will be back to their old ways once the situation improves in TSP.

Absolutely well stated, Negi. TSP is seeking to stabilize and improve its overall position by seeking a lifeline from its only mortal enemy, India. And, here we are willing to go far beyond the 'half-way mark' hoping that this time things will turn out to be different. This Pakistani behaviour is pure Hudabaiya.

The invitation to PLA to position itself all along the eastern front is because TSPA wants to concentrate on its western front and in Afghanistan as time comes. It also wants to deter the USA from attacking it and prevent India from taking advantage of the situation. Thus, even while deriving maximum benefit from India through economic cooperation, Pakistan is planning for a more severe and determined operation against India within a decade after stabilizing and re-acquiring Afghanistan. It thinks PRC will participate too in the project. This is a very high-stake and high-risk gamble, but, what are Pakistan and TSPA if they do not take higher and higher risks even as they slide deeper and deeper into the morass. PRC may have its own calculations for so blatantly moving into Pakistan and not all of that may be to Pakistan's liking though Pakistan may be blind to that now.

By not making things more difficult for Pakistan now, we are shooting ourselves in both our feet and also handing over the gun to our adverasary. This MFN fiasco is the latest in the duplicitous behaviour of Pakistan and shows how it goes about ensnaring India.

a_bharat
BRFite
Posts: 655
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 09:54

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby a_bharat » 19 Nov 2011 07:50

shiv wrote:Bharat - this is well known. I am suprised you found out now. Only the incompetence/weakness is recent. The big "ally" that was used against the Soviets and their side-kick India through the 60s and 70s is out of US control.

Yes, I came across this explanation too but was skeptical about it as the US washed its hands off of the AfPak region and started cutting off aid to Pak after the Soviets left Afganistan. But, things have changed since then with India now starting to appear as a potential threat to US's future world domination.

BTW, the monkey trap article also refers to gorilla trap -- is this what is happening now (intentional or otherwise)?


menon s
BRFite
Posts: 718
Joined: 01 May 2010 09:51
Location: Bangalore

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby menon s » 19 Nov 2011 08:44

thanks to JE Menon, i found this primer on mansoor ijaz, the man with a god complex!
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... menon.html

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2011 08:47

a_bharat wrote:
shiv wrote: Only the incompetence/weakness is recent.


BTW, the monkey trap article also refers to gorilla trap -- is this what is happening now (intentional or otherwise)?


By 2002 when that article was written by a BRFite who presumably only lurks now, it was clear to anyone who observed US-Pakistan relations that this was happening. This is a true case of BR being ahead of curve. The US found out later.

pgbhat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4125
Joined: 16 Dec 2008 21:47
Location: Hayden's Ferry

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby pgbhat » 19 Nov 2011 09:01

Looks like Husain Haqqani is visiting Pacquistan.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11638
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby A_Gupta » 19 Nov 2011 10:10

shiv wrote:Why are we engaging poisonous Pakistan? We should be punishing them. This is the time to draw them out and slaughter them. Give them a taste of their favorite medicine - hatred. And laugh as we do it.


Indiscriminate slaughter may sound like the right thing to do; but it ends up damaging us as well. You cannot be civilized only part time and only when it is convenient; it is a full time effort. Look, if it is so painful and difficult to be us, the answer is very simple, nothing prevents us from embracing our inner Pakistaniyat either. That will end the conflict, will it not? I'm not sure who would be deemed to have won, however.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby shiv » 19 Nov 2011 10:35

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote:Why are we engaging poisonous Pakistan? We should be punishing them. This is the time to draw them out and slaughter them. Give them a taste of their favorite medicine - hatred. And laugh as we do it.


Indiscriminate slaughter may sound like the right thing to do; but it ends up damaging us as well. You cannot be civilized only part time and only when it is convenient; it is a full time effort. Look, if it is so painful and difficult to be us, the answer is very simple, nothing prevents us from embracing our inner Pakistaniyat either. That will end the conflict, will it not? I'm not sure who would be deemed to have won, however.


My personal thoughts on this are that if we "trust" Pakistan and reach agreements, we (or at least many of us) should never put the thought of slaughtering or exterminating Pakis far from our mind. That possibility should be left open even as we implement our own version of Hudaibiya on them.

"Trust deficit" is a two sided affair. Pakistanis need to get into this with their eyes fully open - knowing that there is no delusion on India's part and they the will be slaughtered if they think they can run the kind of con game that Pakistaniyat and the Islamic Republic of Pakistan represents. I don't believe in "Trust but verify". I believe in "Never trust, but tolerate if that is necessary"

Pakistanis have had zero accountability because of luck. Their moronic American allies have trusted and never bothered to verify. That is a luxury they must not have from India.

member_19648
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby member_19648 » 19 Nov 2011 11:09

A_Gupta wrote:
shiv wrote:Why are we engaging poisonous Pakistan? We should be punishing them. This is the time to draw them out and slaughter them. Give them a taste of their favorite medicine - hatred. And laugh as we do it.


Indiscriminate slaughter may sound like the right thing to do; but it ends up damaging us as well. You cannot be civilized only part time and only when it is convenient; it is a full time effort. Look, if it is so painful and difficult to be us, the answer is very simple, nothing prevents us from embracing our inner Pakistaniyat either. That will end the conflict, will it not? I'm not sure who would be deemed to have won, however.


A,
This civilized mentality has got India nothing but more terrorism/pain in return. If we are too civilized to kill the snake that bites us, we can de-fang it right! No one here would want to exterminate the Pakis or kill innocent men, that is not retribution, retribution would be to destroy all those terrorist breeding grounds on POK/taking covert action against the terrorists/criminals who are openly plotting India's destruction when the Pakis are the most weak rather than giving them life support to come out of coma and fight another day. Let it be clear that 60 years of brainwashing and most of the Pakis are only filled with hatred for India. During Kargil war, the Pakis (and regular Paki army and not the yahoos) were on the run, many in IA had proposed to chase them and hunt them for what they have done, take the adjoining Paki base and have it as a leverage against further Paki nuisance. Yes it was that easy but the ideal mentality came up as a thorn as poeple started their rhetoric Pakis are animals, but LOC is sacrosanct for Indians etc. The result was Kargil 2 after a few years. If they are not taught a lesson, they will come back again and again, and Pakis like fleeing when they are pounded but also come back a second time, you can guarantee that.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11638
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby A_Gupta » 19 Nov 2011 11:28

HH: Robin Raphel is back as Grossman’s deputy

HH: You stepped on her toes w/ Kashmir mission

MI: That would be typical. But Grossman knows me and he knows how serious I am. Raphael still hates me for the Kashmir intervention where she did everything she could to ****** me up


What was this about? (Haqqani-Ijaz).

menon s
BRFite
Posts: 718
Joined: 01 May 2010 09:51
Location: Bangalore

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby menon s » 19 Nov 2011 11:29

^^^^^ Shiv sir, i beg to disagree with you here. There is a military , bureaucratic cliche in Pakistan for whom the enmity with India pays rich dividends. The mullah is in it for the money . But there are many people who have by now understand the fallacy behind two nation theory, they are patriotic Pakistanis but needs India`s help, especially the trader, business community. So whats wrong in buying cement, Marble and cotton from that country, and supplying them petroleum, pharmaceuticals and chemicals in return?
In the recent meeting held in Delhi to discuss the MFN status, between Anand Sharma and Fahim Makhdoom , there was an instant bonhomie between Indian and Pakistani businessmen. In fact, Mr.Fahim, was quoted saying, that he was finding it difficult to differentiate between, Indian and Pakistani businessmen in the audience. Leader of the opposition, Mr. Arun Jaitley was there too, saying, calling on traders and businessmen from, the 2 nations, to, work together as sheet anchors to bring in peace and prosperity to the region.
Our trade is in no way, going to help Pakistan pull out of the economic morass it is in, but it will create however small a community of well wishers for India in that country. which i think is quiet needed.
Military minds and Politicians could not create peace between both nations in the past 63 yrs, why? shouldnt we traders be given a chance?

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11638
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby A_Gupta » 19 Nov 2011 11:31

Ivanev wrote:This civilized mentality has got India nothing but more terrorism/pain in return. If we are too civilized to kill the snake that bites us, we can de-fang it right! No one here would want to exterminate the Pakis or kill innocent men,...


Did you read what I was responding to? Shiv on page 31 of this thread.
I have no doubt he's being piskological.

...Actually I have absolutely no objection to seeing every Pakistani dead. Clean. Wipe Pakistan clean of all Pakistanis. What is wrong with that? ....
I think all Pakistanis should be killed. People may ask, how can you kill 180 million people. Ok i admit that will be difficult. How about killing 10 million of them for punishment? That should be easier. The Pakistani army killed 3 million in 1971. Heck historical records show that heroes like Mahmud Ghazni killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions. It was fine then. What makes it bad now? Sometimes it is necessary to kill people. The time to kill Pakistanis is when we are stronger. That is the law of nature.

member_19648
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 31 Oct 201

Postby member_19648 » 19 Nov 2011 11:38

menon s wrote:^^^^^ Shiv sir, i beg to disagree with you here. There is a military , bureaucratic cliche in Pakistan for whom the enmity with India pays rich dividends. The mullah is in it for the money . But there are many people who have by now understand the fallacy behind two nation theory, they are patriotic Pakistanis but needs India`s help, especially the trader, business community. So whats wrong in buying cement, Marble and cotton from that country, and supplying them petroleum, pharmaceuticals and chemicals in return?
In the recent meeting held in Delhi to discuss the MFN status, between Anand Sharma and Fahim Makhdoom , there was an instant bonhomie between Indian and Pakistani businessmen. In fact, Mr.Fahim, was quoted saying, that he was finding it difficult to differentiate between, Indian and Pakistani businessmen in the audience. Leader of the opposition, Mr. Arun Jaitley was there too, saying, calling on traders and businessmen from, the 2 nations, to, work together as sheet anchors to bring in peace and prosperity to the region.
Our trade is in no way, going to help Pakistan pull out of the economic morass it is in, but it will create however small a community of well wishers for India in that country. which i think is quiet needed.
Military minds and Politicians could not create peace between both nations in the past 63 yrs, why? shouldnt we traders be given a chance?


Menon,
can you be sure that just by promoting trade, the Paki businessman community will change their perception of India. What if they get the money and use it to fund terrorists in return?? Most of the money that is given to the terrorists is after all channeled through businessmen or given by them. Even if assuming they become loyal, what if the extortion money from them or the tax payed by them goes to the terrorists? Also, through business, its more people to people exchange, its opening the frontiers for them, they can easily send spies or yahoos to India, try to foment insurgency, strengthen their sleeper cells!!! If someone can give a guarantee against all of these, then only let there be trade!


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: chola, punitrpatel, Suresh S, vijayk and 42 guests