India-China News and Discussion

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27 pics mentioned in the link below:
http://news.163.com/photoview/3R710001/ ... 1V3R710001

（图一 小白兔翻译） 在印度，有近一亿人住在贫民窟。尽管被外界视作城市的肿瘤，贫民窟却能给身无分文的贫民提供土地、工作、选举的权利和改变命运的机会，而这一切被法律所保护。对于印度贫民来说，贫民窟是他们保有尊严的家园；对于印度来说，贫民窟则是城市化进程的必经之路。
In India,there are nearly 100 milliom people living in slums.Although treated as a phyma of the city,the slums can provide the poor with land,jobs,the right to vote, and the opportunity to change their fate.And this is protected by laws.For indian paupers,a slum is a home that can protect their dignity.For India,the slums are the compulsory routes of urbanlization.


（图二 小白兔翻译） 在印度，人们享有完全的迁徙自由权。在国土范围内，无论你出身哪里，都可以迁徙到任何地方生活。印度实行土地私有制，同时规定，在无主的土地上居住 10年，脚下的这块土地就会划归居住者所有。20世纪60年代，一部分印度农民开始在城市里划地而居。许多不属于私人仅属于国家的土地，都成了穷人们争先占领的“风水宝地”，贫民窟随之成型。图为孟买达拉维贫民窟，一名女孩在搬运行李。
In India,Migration liberty is not a problem.Wherever you are born,you can move to anywhere of country.The Indians have private land ownership,and according to related laws,the land would be a private asset as long as you live there for 10 years.In the 1960s,some peasants started to delimit a place in city and live there.A lot of places which are belonged to nobody but the govenment become a hot shot among the poor,then they become the slums.In the photo a girl is carrying her baggage in MumbaiDharavislum.



(图3 katherine翻译）农民进入贫民窟后，用废弃的建材搭建住所，有人甚至不得不开始一段风餐露宿的生活。他们梦想着赚到钱后，可以用砖石建更好的房子，并最终迁出贫民窟去。贫民窟是印度农民们开始城市生活的第一步；去大城市的贫民窟居住，也被很多人视为“对未来的投资”。图为孟买达拉维贫民窟，一名母亲给即将上学的女儿整理衣服。
The peasants moved into the slums, built their houses with the discarded building materials, some of them even have to suffer a period of life without shelters. They dreamed of that when they earned a lot of money, they can build their housed with bricks and cement, and finally get out of these slums. Slums are the first step for the India peasants who might start their urban life; Moving to the slums in larger cities were also regarded as a kind of “investment of the future”. The picture shows a slum in Dharavi,Bombay. A mother is putting her daughter’s clothes on.


（图四 katherine翻译）随着印度迅猛的城市化，越来越多的农民进入大城市。截至2011年，印度共有9000多万人口聚集在贫民窟，与20年前相比人口翻了一番。以最大城市孟买为例，1600万城市居民中，有超过62%“贫民窟”居民。图为孟买达拉维贫民窟。达拉维是世界第二大地贫民窟，仅次于南非的索韦托。
With the rapid urbanization in India, more and more peasants rushed into big cities. There are more than 90,000,000 people lived in the slums till 2011, which considered doubled comparing 20 years ago. Taking Bombay as an example, there are more than 62% residents of the 16,000,000 total population live in the slums. The picture shows the Dharavi slums-----the world 2nd largest slum, while the 1st is the Soweto in South Africa.


（图五 katherine翻译）达拉维位于孟买市中心的繁华地段，向北6公里就是孟买机场，向南6公里就是商业区。在寸土寸金的孟买，这块土地十分值钱。房产商想利用这片土地，政府更想将机场扩建。然而由于收购私有土地十分困难，机场的扩建一推再推。图为透过一户人家的窗户，孟买机场近在咫尺。
Dharavi is located in thecentre of Bombay; the Bombay airport is 6km far in the north and the shoppingcentre is 6km far in the South. This land means a lot of money in Bombay. The land agents are chasing this land, while the government wants toextend the airport. However, the purchase of the private land is ratherdifficult, that leads to the extension of the airport delayed again and again.The picture shows a house near the Bombay airport.


（图六 katherine翻译）贫民窟通常是卫生情况差、基础设施落后的代名词。实际上，与世界其他贫民窟比起来，达拉维每天24小时供应自来水和电，居民生活并不太差。图为几名露天沐浴的男子。
The slums are also the synonyms of bad hygienecondition and poor infrastructures. In fact, Dharavi supply tap-waterand electricity 24 hours. It is much better comparing other slums in the restof the world. The picture shows some men showering outdoors.


（图七katherine翻译）印度各个城市都出奇招来给贫民以福利，最常见的就是给贫民窟里的居民补贴水电费。有报道称孟买市政府每年水电补贴就高达千万美元，新德里更是超过了3000万美元。如此之高的补贴，几乎可以让贫民窟的居民免费使用水电。图为达拉维，一名工人在给自来水管做修护保养。
Every city in India is trying their best tobring benefits to the poor people, giving them water and electricity expense isthe most common way. It is reported thatthis expense costs Bombay government 10 million dollars every year. In New Delhi,the number even rises to 30 million dollars. Such high funds of benefits canalmost allow the people in slums using water and electricity for free. The picture shows a worker repairing the water pipe in Dharavi


（图八 katherine翻译）达拉维方圆约1.8平方公里，却聚集了100万人。在这样拥挤的空间里，人们不得不尽可能压缩生活空间。图为市政府为贫民窟修建的“洗涤区”。人们在半封闭的“格子”里，既洗澡又洗衣物。一名研究城市空间的西方学者称，这样的区域给居民们提供了一个开放式的公共社交空间。
Dharavi is an area thataround 1.8 square kilometer, but gathered morethan one million populations. People have to compress their living space insuch a crowded place. The picture shows a laundry area that built by thegovernment. People can wash their clothes and bodies in these semi-enclosedrooms. A western urban space researching scientist said, these rooms provide anopen social contact area.


（图⑨ katherine翻译）贫民窟里最重要的商业活动是垃圾再循环。任何塑料，金属都被从垃圾堆里挑选出来，分类出售。在达拉维，孟买80%的塑料品在此被回收利用，逾25万人以循环垃圾为生。图为一名男子在回收油漆。
The most important business opportunity isthe rubbish recycling. All the plastics and metals will be picked from therubbish dump, then classified and sold. In Dharavi, 80% plasticsin Bombay was recycled here, more than 250,000 people make a living on it. Thepicture shows a man who is recycling paint.


（图十 katherine翻译）达拉维的民房十分狭小，通常几平方米的空间要住下一家子十余口人。尽管如此，人们总是将自己家里的一亩三分地收拾得很干净。
Houses in Dharavi are quitenarrow and small; a ten people family usually has to share several limitedsquare meters. Even though, people always cleaning their houses frequently.


（图十一 ybbpgfjtey翻译）达拉维有1万5千家家庭手工业作坊。早年间进入达拉维的人们经过原始积累，大多拥有了自己的工厂，并招收新来的居民为工人。有的地方以生产皮革闻名，有的地方以生产陶器闻名，逐渐发展出了具有贫民窟特色的产业区，这些企业每年为孟买贡献的GDP逾6亿美元，提供了数十万个就业机会。在达拉维，几乎人人都有工作。

In Dharavi, there's more than 15,000 family handicraft workshops. Through continuous accumulation, most of the people that getting into Dharavi in the early years, had their own factory, and recruit new residents for workers. Some places are famous for leather production, some others for pottery. They had developed a industrial zone with slum characteristic. Contributing more than $600 million for GDP of Mumbai per year. Providing hundreds of thousands of jobs. Almost everybody has their own job in Daravi.


（图十二）如果不想给人打工，人们还可以沿街摆摊做小买卖。2010年，英联邦运动会举办前，新德里市政府因“驱赶小贩”被印度全国街头小贩联合会告上最高法院。最高法院在判决书中写道：“街头叫卖是人们谋生的一项基本权利，政府需要贯彻一项成文法来规范街头小贩，而非打压。”根据判决要求，印度政府必须在2011年通过一部相关法律，以规范摊贩及保护他们的基本权利。图为德里，一名小贩利用警察局招牌挡雨。
If you do not want work for other people,Also you can set up a stall along the street. In 2011, before the Commonwealth Games held. India's National Association of hawkers sue the New Delhi government to Supreme Court because of "driving hawkers" . According to the requirements of decision, the In his ruling, the Supreme Court wrote: "selling in the streets is a fundamental right of people to make a living, the government need to implement a written law to regulate street vendors, rather than suppressed. Indian government must passed to a relevant law in 2011, to regulate the vendors and protection their fundamental rights.The picture shows a hawker used the police signs resist rain in Delhi.


（图十三）达拉维产生了大批出租车司机。出租行业门槛很低，任何人只需要一次性缴纳一笔约150元人民币的费用即可获得三轮车的运营证，不再收取任何税费；缴纳约300元人民币即可获得小汽车的运营证，愿意从事出租车业的人还可从政府获得优惠贷款。贫民窟为孟买提供廉价的保姆、司机等日常服务人员，没有贫民窟孟买就无法运转。图为一名贫民窟出租司机。
Dharavi generates a large number of taxi drivers. anyone only need one-time payment of about 150 yuan（RMB），they can get a Permit the operation of tricycle，do not need to charge any taxes. To pay about 300 yuan to get the car's operating permit. If someone is willing to engage in the taxi industry, they also get preferential loans from the government. Slums provide cheap nannies, drivers, and daily service to Mumbai .Can not operate without slums of Mumbai.The picture shows a slum taxi driver.


（图十四fatedrei）尽管降低了出租行业的门槛，司机还需自己动手优化出租车的硬件。图为一辆出租车上“DIY”的车牌。当地经济学家指出：贫民窟恰恰是城市的福利，它使城市中心一直维持着较低的物价水平，富人一样在享受着廉价服务的福利。Despite the entrance fee is lower, car drivers still need to optimize the hardware of their taxi to reduce the cost. This picture shows the taxi with letters sign DIY. Local economist point out :slum is welfare of the city , it keeps low price level in downtown. The rich also enjoy the cheapness of low price

（图十五 fatedrei）贫民窟里住的不都是赤贫人口。比如，孟买贫民窟的人口中只有４％属于印度的法定贫困人口。而大多数人都有这样的背景：他们来自农村，为了谋生来到城市，当得到一个贫民窟的房子就意味着他在这里彻底站稳了脚跟。他们并不急于改善自己的生活居住条件，而是源源不断地把钱寄回农村老家，在老家的村子里盖一个大房子。他们的孩子在孟买接受教育，也许能找一份体面的工作。而当他们老了以后，他们会把贫民窟的房子留给孩子，或者租给别人，自己回农村老家的大房子里颐养天年。图为一户开“便利店”的家庭。
Not all of the residents in slums are poverty-stricken.For example only 4% people in Mumbai slums belong to the poor in India law. Most of them come from countryside to make a living in city. Owning a house in slums means you take root in city.Instead of improving their living standard, they send back money home continuously, and build a big house in hometown. Their children accept education in Mumbai which may bring them a respectable job. When they get older, they will leave their houses to children or rent to someone. Move back to hometown and enjoy the rest of their lives. This picture shows one family and their store.


（图十六 ）图为一名青年男子，他曾经在半岛附近的写字楼里上班，现在成为一名专职导游。
The picture shows a young man, In the past he work in office space near the peninsula , is now a full-time tour guide


（图十七 ）如果卖掉脚下的地，贫民窟的人们能得到一笔不菲的收入。拆迁补偿成本巨大，导致印度大城市房价很高，高房价则使获得拆迁补偿的贫民成为受益者。图为一名贫民窟的私营业主在打电话联系生意，图中的高楼是孟买帝国大厦。If sold land under the own foot, the slum people can get a lot of money income. High cost of relocation compensation，led to high house prices in India cities，Because the reasons for high house prices, those poor who received compensation for demolition became beneficiaries.In the picture,a private landlord has using the phone to contact the busines, The High-rise building in the picture is Empire State Building in Mumbai.



（图十八 fatedrei翻译）贫民窟是一个广义的概念。一些“贫民窟主”在经济条件改善了以后，会修整自己的房子。甚至不少公务员、教师为了省钱，也租住贫民窟的房子。图为一个自称为“五星级贫民窟”的家庭。
Slum is a generally definition. Some house owner will decorate their houses after they step into well-to-do class. Even some officals and teathers rent slum houses to save money . This picture shows one family called five-star house.


（图十九）达拉维分为不同的教区。印度教、基督教和伊斯兰教分区而治，各不冲突。在伊斯兰教区，商业街同时也是伊斯兰教徒们每天朝拜的固定场所。每天早上一到固定时间，熙熙攘攘的街道“自动”腾空，仪式结束后又恢复热闹。
Dharavi is divided into different parishes。Hinduism, Christianity and Islam partition and rule, do not conflict with each. In the area of Islam, Commercial Street is also a muslim fixed place of worship every day. In a fixed time every morning, bustling streets "automatic" vacated, after the ceremony ，street recovery lively.


（图二十 ybbpgfjtey）在印度，贫民窟的孩子们可以在当地城市得到义务教育，大学一年的学费也维持在较低的水准，低费用的教育体制为贫民窟主立足城市提供了便利。而孩子们只要满18岁，并在城市居住满5年，就可以申请一张新的选民证，在政治上融入当地社会。图为印度街头的“街头补习班”。
In India, local goverment supplies obligation education for slum children. A year's college tuition maintains at a lower level. Convenience to keep slum in city, due to low cost of education system. Voter registration card could be applied for since children are 18 year's old and had been living in the city for 5 years. So they can integrated into local society in politics. This picture shows the street cram school in India's street.

（图二十一 ）图为在印度Siliguri市贫民窟附近的警察局里，一名警察在给贫民窟的孩子讲故事。在Siliguri市，有9名警察开办了一所贫民窟小学，招收了120名孩子。
The picture shows in the police station near the Siliguri slums. A policeman was telling stories to children of slum.In Siliguri, nine police officers opened a slum school,And enrolled 120 children.


（图二十二 )2009年，一部取材于达拉维贫民窟的电影《贫民窟的百万富翁》揽下奥斯卡八项大奖，并在印度国内获得了商业成功。图为贫民窟的人们聚在一起观看81届奥斯卡颁奖礼。
In 2009, A Dharavi slums themed movie , "Slumdog Millionaire" get eight Academy Awards, and success in commercial in the domestic market. The picture shows the slum people together, watch 81st Academy Awards.


（图二十三 pandarunner翻译）《贫民窟的百万富翁》甚至给达拉维来带了游客。许多来自欧洲、美国的有钱人舍弃一天花费500美元的泰姬马哈酒店住，前往到10美元就可以游览2个半小时的达拉维参观。印度人开始意识到：孟买的神髓并不在于那些带有官方版“印度崛起”论述的豪华建筑，而在于遍布城市的近2000个的贫民窟。图为一名女孩向游客兜售《贫民窟的百万富翁》的周边书籍。
Slumdog Millionaire has helped lure tourists, the rich from Europe and America flock to Taj Mahal Hotel for a US$500 per night stay, and pay US$10 for a 2-hour-trip in Dharavi . The Indians wake up to that the spirit of Mumbai is not displayed as luxury buildings glorified by the official perception of "Rise of India", but those 2000 slums all over this city. This picture shows a girl selling Slumdog Millionaire-related books


（图二十四 pandarunner翻译）然而，另一部分贫民窟居民则觉得电影伤害了自己的自尊心。《印度时报》称《贫民窟的百万富翁》并未反映当下孟买的现实生活。不少来自印度国内的声音也说，达拉维未必有那么穷，而外面的世界也未必有那么美好。图为人们在进行“反《贫民窟的百万富翁》”活动，标语上写着“贫民窟居民是人，不是狗！”
Yet Slumdog Millionaire hurts some slumdwellers' dignity, TOI says it doesn't necessarily show the real life in Mumbai. Quite a few Indians don't see Dharavi as a poor city and the outside world a better place. This picture shows people engaged in a "anti- Slumdog Millionaire" movement, the sign reads: We slumdwellers are human beings & not dogs.


（图二十五）2007年，孟买市制定计划，同意地产商收回地皮来修建办公楼和中产阶级的公寓，并规定一些满足条件的贫民窟住户可以住进新公寓。此举在贫民窟激起轩然大波，众多达拉维住户却反对此项计划，人们认为想要继续发展，就必须守住自己的产业。而政治家们也不敢得罪这些手握选票的穷人，因为无论是谁上台，都要讨好数量众多的穷人。图为2007年6月18日，达拉维居民在抗议行动中大喊反政府口号。
In 2007, the Mumbai city developed a plan, agreed to the reclaim land to build office and apartment buildings for the middle class,And to provide some slumdwellers who meet the conditions can move into new apartment.This one practice sparked an uproar in the slums, many Dharavi residents oppose the plan, people think if need continue to develop, they must protect their own industries.The politicians did not dare to offend the poor who have the votes, because no matter who came to power, must please the large number of poor. The picture shows the June 18, 2007, Dharavi residents shouted anti-government slogans in protest.


（图二十六）印度政府计划在2020年内改造所有的贫民窟。印度中央政府计划修建1200万套低价住房，并鼓励各邦政府为低价房提供土地。孟买所在的马哈拉施特邦政府已宣布计划修建100万套保障房，德里政府则准备通过摇号方式提供5000套住宅。
The government plans to transform all of the slums during the year 2020. India's central government plans to build 12 million low-cost housing units，And to encourage state governments to provide with land for affordable housing。Mumbai in Maharashtra government has announced plans to build 1 million units of affordable housing，while Delhi Government is prepared to provide 5,000 housing units by random sample way .



（图二十七 由小白兔翻译）目前为止，由于金融危机的影响、媒体报导不利和居民的抗议，重置计划暂时搁浅下来了。一位贫民窟居民说：“我们才是这里的主人。不是政府，不是富人，也不是慈善机构。”在可以预见的将来，印度的贫民窟还将在继续存在和发展。他们面目丑陋，却以独特的方式推动着印度城市化进程。

So far, due to the influence of the financial crisis, media's adverse reports and residents's protest, the rebuild plan has been left in the air. A slum dwellers said: "we are the owners of here. Not the government, not the rich, and also not the charity." In the foreseeable future, India's slums will also continue to exist and develop. They have a ugly looking, but they are promoting the urbanization process of India in a unique way.


（有想翻译的在楼下发帖说明一下哪张图吧）


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mojsh [网易广东省深圳市网友]： 2011-11-03 09:58:47 发表 [顶：18381]

他们活在现实里，我们活在新闻联播中
they live in reality,We live in CCTV.



网易山西省太原市网友 ip：218.26.*.* 2011-11-03 10:00:05 发表[顶：13273]


看了这些照片，我觉得印度超越中国不是不可能，也许它发展的很慢，但基础扎实，经济的发展建立全体国民都能分享发展成果的基础上的。
Seen these photos, I think India over China is not impossible.Although their development is slow,But they have a solid foundation.Economic development is built on the foundation that all citizens share the fruits of development.



月君 [网易江苏省连云港市网友]： 2011-11-03 07:36:30 发表[顶：11502]


一位贫民窟居民说：“我们才是这里的主人。不是政府，不是富人，也不是慈善机构”“贫民窟人是人，不是狗”——他们会为土地拼命地，胜负以不言而喻。
A slum resident said:"We are the masters here,not government,not rich, not the charity." "we slumdwellers er human beings & not dogs"-----They will fight hard for the land,everyone knows who will win in Future.



你那里还疼吗 [网易江西省南昌市网友]： 2011-11-03 08:16:37 发表[顶：8972]


没有信仰的民族比不上贫民窟的贫民。
A nation without faith， failure than the slums of the poor.



网易北京市网友 ip：218.240.*.* 2011-11-03 10:07:47 发表[顶：7847]


印度实行土地私有制，同时规定，在无主的土地上居住10年，脚下的这块土地的所有权就会划归居住者所有。
India to implement the system of private ownership of land but also provides:In the absence of the live on the ownerless land for 10 years，it‘s will be owned by you all.



网易山东省青岛市网友 ip：123.235.*.* 2011-11-03 09:54:17 发表[顶：5256]


中国不知道又有多少人住在贫民窟里
I don't know how many chinese live in slum.



该网民被河蟹 [网易湖北省孝感市网友]： 2011-11-05 20:55:12 发表


对不起，我们曾经骂你们是阿三！
sorry,we have been called you "a san"!



yingyi96 [网易湖南省长沙市网友]： 2011-11-05 22:51:41 发表


写这的，肯定是屁民（只要min zhu），觉得印度好，自己干嘛不移民过去，享受最纯的min zhu ！
The man who Write these articles,must being "Fart people".You thinking india is good,Why are you do not go to india to enjoy the most pure democracy ?


被和谐的人 [网易广东省东莞市网友]： 2011-11-05 22:23:32 发表


一群没有土地没有选票的人在争论着民主的坏处，多么可笑的事！就像一群太监在争论性生活有多伤身体
It's ridiculous that a group people are arguing the disadvantages of democracy while they have no land and ballot, just like some eunuchs think about the sex is less health for body.




网易上海市闵行区网友 ip：58.38.*.* 2011-11-05 21:45:56 发表

至此我可以放心了。。。印度是永远也赶不上中国了。。。
read to here I can rest assured. . . India can never keep up with China. . .



网易河南省信阳市网友 [s15839700336] 的原贴： 1

印度的贫民窟住的受法律保护，而我们住的房屋随时都可能被国家征收，所以我们大多数人都不如印度贫民窟！！！！！！！
Living in slums in India are protected by law, and we live in housing may be collected by the state at any time,So most of us poorer than the poor in India.



网易安徽省网友 [玉树宝衣] 的原贴： 2

既然你觉得不如，不妨和印度的贫民窟的某个人交换一下财产和国籍，如果你愿意，我可以帮你离开中国。
Since you think so,Maby you can exchange of property and citizenship with someone in slum of india.If you want,I can help you to leave China.



网易浙江省宁波市网友 [lq1213] 的原贴： 3

奴才及其主子还不还政与民，滚回德国马列祖宗家去。
The slave and his master political back to people,and Go back homeland for Marx and Lenin's Germany!



网易安徽省滁州市网友 [玉树宝衣] 的原贴： 4

现实是，说不如印度的人，有人愿意交换吗？
The reality is have someone want to change?


网易浙江省网友 [淘宝2B] 的原贴： 5

关键是要问问印度贫民愿不愿意！
The key is need to ask india poor's they want or not!



玉树宝衣 [网易安徽省网友]： 2011-11-05 20:27:31 发表


这不是关键，关键是自己说自己的状态比印度贫民差的愿不愿意去交换。用差的换好的，应当是愿意的。如果不愿意，只能说明提出这个说法的人，是虚伪的。这根本不关阿三的事情，你自己的心灵先做抉择。
This is not the key, the key is that their own state worse than the poor guy want exchange or not.Exchange of good things with bad things of course you want. If not, only shows that people who make this argument, is hypocritical. This is no “Asan” business , yourself mind need do first choice.


cxf998888 [网易江苏省泰州市网友]： 2011-11-05 17:12:10 发表

印度应该实行计划生育，地球养不了这么多人。
India should practice family planning, the Earth can not support so many people.


tang1ke [网易河北省邯郸市网友]： 2011-11-05 15:00:06 发表


美分杂碎们一直不敢对我提的问题作答：60多年前印度先于中国独立，从开始到今天一直选票制度，而且没有经二战、内战破坏，独立之初各领域全面领先中国，今天美分杂碎们为什么却叫喊着要超过中国？他们一直是领先的，按照美分杂碎们说法先进的印度对中国的领先该越来越大的
"Cents" and garbage have been afraid to face and answer my question :Sixty years ago,India's first independent than China,Up to now has been a ballot system.And no World War II and the civil war damage india.when independence, India's leading in all aspects of China.Why today they say:"India will exceed china?"They're always leading,Statement in accordance with "cents",India should advanced to the growing China's leading.

(chets is mean someone who say anything for American 5 chets)



华丽地望望 [网易海南省网友]： 2011-11-05 01:36:40 发表

不管是文章还是评论的人都一致觉得贫民窟里的人生活的很幸福,可他们心里真的像你们说的那样幸福吗?我看未必吧,他们都是一些可怜的印度低种姓人,对高姓人种来说,他们的存在和狗没什么分别.别说吃顿饱饭,他们有件干净的衣服都要感谢上苍了
他们每天都在为延续生命拼命挣扎着,你们怎么可以私自认为他们幸福?放你的狗屁吧,人家看到你说这些估计还得过来给你两拳:我幸福,我幸福你妹啊！

Whether the article or peoples article comments， all think india poor live in slum was happiness.But they are really as so good as you said? I beg to differ.
They are some of India's low caste poor people， for people of high caste。 their presence not different than dogs, respectively. Not to mention get a full of food, If they have clean clothes ，they will thank for god.
Every day they are desperately struggling for the continuation of life, how do you Selfish think that they can be happy? It’s shit！
When they see you talking about this , they will hit you meal : I am happy！ I am happy your sister！！！！！！



绿字部分是由Chinchilla 翻译的，大家撒花~
关注 关注他的微博 逼加锁没操疯 [网易广东省广州市白云区网友]： 2011-11-03 10:02:21 发表
印度的户籍制度没有做好，如果想天朝一样的话，不会出现这么多贫民窟
India's household registration system is not so good as China's. It could have had fewer slums.


关注 关注他的微博 xyswwyw [网易浙江省绍兴市网友]： 2011-11-03 10:00:19 发表
印度没有城管拆违吗？
So India has no Chengguan to dismantle its illegal buildings?



[网易山东省枣庄市网友]： 2011-11-03 10:26:51 发表 国家不大却养育着12亿人口！！
A country which is not that big but affords 1.2 billion people!


关注 关注他的微博 zhaobin0923 [网易中国网友]： 2011-11-03 10:26:08 发表
人家是贫民而我们是屁民！这次终于知道阿三买武器不受限制，而我们除了买俄国的三流武器外没有其他选择！！！！！！！！！！入肉！！！！！！！！！！！
They are poortizen but we are shitizen! I've come to know that they can buy any weapons without restriction while we have no other choice but the low level weapons bought from Russia.



克拉母鱼 [网易湖南省网友]： 2011-11-03 10:24:38 发表
这组照片看下来，我都想去那里住了
I'd like to live there after seeing these pictures.


网易中国网友 ip：121.249.*.* 2011-11-03 10:23:08 发表
为了实现真正的民主与自由，我看到了印度政府傻逼一样的坚持。
What I see is that the Indian gov persists like an idiot in order to realize the real democracy and freedom.


关注 关注他的微博 骑鸵鸟旅行 [网易广东省佛山市网友]： 2011-11-03 10:22:38 发表
印度相对中国，虽贫穷，但他们有自由，有归属感。而我们有吗？一切都是浮云。
Though India is poorer than China, they have freedom and sense of belonging. What do we have then? All is like the unreachable clouds high up in the sky.




小塘江 [网易浙江省杭州市网友]： 2011-11-03 10:22:29 发表
尊严在添朝也仅是一句台词而已。。
Here in China the dignity is merely a word in an actor's lines.


仙芙的野爹 [网易湖北省武汉市网友]： 2011-11-03 10:09:23 发表 我想移民去印度！请问联系方式谢谢！起码活的真是不压迫
I want to migrate to India! Please tell me their contact information, thanks! At least they are not leading an oppressive life.


网易北京市网友 ip：202.96.*.* 2011-11-03 10:07:55 发表

印度人穷，但印度人认命，并努力用自己的奋斗来改变生活，反观中国人，穷了不去反思自己，穷了就怨社会，好吃懒做，羡慕他人生活，自己又没有任何本事
These Indians are poor but they admit and accept the fact. They are trying hard to struggle and change the life. Look at some of the Chinese who do not self-examine critically but complain of the sociaty when they are poor. They can only eat their heads off and get envious of others since they have nothing on the ball.

shjunjie [网易广东省深圳市网友]： 2011-11-03 10:40:19 发表

通过一种特别的解读，作者及广大人民群众得出印度的贫民窟很好，比我们的楼房平房农民房好。现在终于相信，人民的眼睛是雪亮的！历史是靠眼睛雪亮的人民群众创造的。人民群众太伟大了！强烈要求ZF发展印度式贫民窟给大家住，最强烈的要求！
In a very special way, the author and some of the masses have concluded that the slums in India are very good, much better than the houses of all sorts that we have. I've finally come to believe that the masses are discerning and the history has been being made by these masses. How great they are! I strongly suggest our gov develope the Inidan style slums and afford them to us!

撞豆腐 [网易山东省潍坊市网友]： 2011-11-03 10:49:21

发表 如果没有城管，估计中国所有城市都跟印度城市的平民窟似的
If we had no Chengguan, I think all the cities in China could have been like the Indian slums.


sjhuang2005 [网易福建省厦门市网友]： 2011-11-03 10:48:30 发表
强烈要求小编和众多支持的人移民印度，那边没有户口，你们可以放心呆
I strongly suggest the editors and supporters of this article migrate to India. India has no Hukou system and you can stay anywhere as you wish.


黑字部分由susancon翻译，大家撒花~~~~

bigsea2002 [网易浙江省杭州市网友]： 2011-11-06 23:20:39 发表
印度是个值得尊敬的大国！
India is a respectable country!


V美丽的狗V [网易江苏省南京市网友]： 2011-11-06 20:43:26 发表
引用：
“乐死我了哈哈，还有羡慕贫民窟的民主的。。。脑袋不是一般的残，建议你们都移民去印度到窑里民主去，哈哈”
怎么这么多瞎子到现在没看出我们争辩的意义，或者说他们天生的不会思考，因为做奴才是不需要思考的，我们所有人谈论的不是人家住贫民窟有多幸福，哪个国家没有穷人？而是印度正在走在正确的道路上，穷人也有尊严，虽然他们现在很穷，但是未来是光明的，这就是民主的好处！
Quote:
"LOL, someone here admire on indian democracy....what a bunch of idiots ,how about you all go to indian slum to enjoy your democracy,LOL"
Why so many blindman can't see what we are arguing about, or do they born incapable of thinking? I think its because being a servant requires no thinking. we are not talking about how happy they are living in slums, after all which country can be free of poverty? But India is on the correct path, even the poor have dignity, even they are very poor now, their future is bright, this is what good of democracy.

古董的沉默 [网易福建省漳州市网友]： 2011-11-06 19:13:12 发表
给别人扣帽子，是证明你发帖有效，一帖五美分的依据么？所有聪明人？凡是稍微学过一点管理学的人都知道，只有在保障生存权利的基础上，才会去追求受尊重的权利。印度享受了民主的好处？抱歉，我只看到印度人享受到了所有民主的坏处。印度现在还实行种性制度，还有1.5亿贱民，就是最后一等的公民，他们的尊严谁来保证。印度的贫困人口超过4亿，这也是民主带来的利好。印度成年人平均受交易年限4.7年，中国是7.5.还有今天早上看到的新闻，印度德里公立医院新生儿死亡率为22.49%，当地市长认为是外地人的涌入，导致这一数据上升。这只是我了解的几个数据，以上不知道美分们有什么看法。印度要想谈民主，先解决掉种姓制度的问题再说！最后一句话献给楼上的几位美分，兄弟，干了这杯恒河水，来生再做印度人！
Is defame somebody else the proof for a valid post, so you can get another 5 U.S. cent for your posting?
All the wise man? Anyone with basic knowledge of administration knows that only with the guarantee of the right of survive can people pursue the right of being respected.
India enjoys the benefit of democracy?Sorry,but I only seen indian "enjoy" from the defect of democracy.
India still runs a caste system, with 150 million untouchable people, who is going to guarantee their dignity.
India have more than 400 million poor,which is also the "benefit" of democracy.
Indian's average years of education is 4.7, in which chinese is 7.5.
Plus the news just heard about this morning, India delhi public hospital have a death rate of new born of 22.49%, and the mayer believe it is the influx of the outlanders be the cause of increasing of this death rate.
These are just few data that I know, don't know what do our MeiFens think about it.
If india want to run democracy properly, they must solve their caste system first.
At last, few words for our MeiFens:
Brother, straight up this ganges water, and may you be an indian afterlife.

红字部分由fatedrei翻译，大家撒花~

lq1213
肉身虽不自由，因为体治决定了国家囚笼。但心灵的自由是最高贵的自由。因为我的心超越万物之上，在宇宙之间，无人可以阻挡。只要这个国家的人民心是自由的，那么哪怕专治的暴君是刀枪不入的超人，同样将无法阻制人民获得真正自由之一天。
The system build a national prison,take freedom away from my body.But the freedom of soul is the most valuable. Free of my soul makes me beyond the mortal. No one can stop me ever. No
Matter how powerful the autocracy may be. If only the soul of this nation is free, the day of freedom will come.
芳草123 [网易山东省济南市网友]
看过之后才知道人家的发展，才是真正人民需要的发展。感慨万千，印度才是中国的发展模式。贫民窟有存在的道理。这对中国有最大的启发作用。
It is not until I have seen these pictures do I realize the development of India. How amazing! This is the kind of development we really need. India model is the exactly way China should put into practice. Slum own the reason to exist.This enlighten China the most.

所有反抿住、鼓吹集权的疯狗们，嘴脸莫不如此相似——把问题推诿到人的身上，来掩盖制度之弊。
什么样的制度，直接决定什么样的教育水平，直接造就什么样的道德水准、民众素质。
“好的制度，让坏人都不敢作恶；坏的制度，让好人都只能走向邪恶”
All the crazy dogs who are anti-democracy and agitating autocracy share the same face-----Owe problems to the public so as to cover the cracks of system. Education level ,moral level and pubic quality depend on what system can be. Good system makes bullies dare not do crime, bad system push saint to evil


看见军网里面有不少人都嘲笑印度...我只能说一百多年前，大清朝也和今天我们瞧不起印度一样看不起日本。
Many people in military BBS laugh at India, I can only say, merely a hundred years ago ,The Great Qing Empire also looked down upon Japan, just like what we treat India today.

第一张照片是MSL的，SB编辑！！！！
The first picture is Muslim ,editor the idiot


（由fatedrei翻译）
916863808

我早就认为种姓制度是最先进的制度，是能带领人类走向未来的伟大制度，神马共产、资本在种姓面前都是浮云，未来是印度的，世界是印度的，印度人永远掌控着未来
I told you, caste system is the most advantageable system，which can lead human being to future,compare with caste system, communism and capitalism are pice of shit. The future belongs to India ,the world belongs to India, Indians awalys control the future

[archan]

This is a new thread for India-China news and discussions. There are other threads which are more "confrontational" (for the lack of a better word) but let us keep most of Indi-Chinese discussions here. I am leaving the first post by a new user and changing the title of the thread. Users can decide on that post and we'll see if it needs to be kept.
(However I must caution (mostly windows) users upon visiting "unknown" sites. Please use a browser like Firefox with NoScript add on to avoid any unpleasant spyware or just use Linux or an "expendable windows install" in virtualbox/vmware)

[member_20187]

This is a new thread for India-China news and discussions. There are other threads which are more "confrontational" (for the lack of a better word) but let us keep most of Indi-Chinese discussions here. I am leaving the first post by a new user and changing the title of the thread. Users can decide on that post and we'll see if it needs to be kept.
(However I must caution (mostly windows) users upon visiting "unknown" sites. Please use a browser like Firefox with NoScript add on to avoid any unpleasant spyware or just use Linux or an "expendable windows install" in virtualbox/vmware)

It's a pleasure that my thread can be a India-China discussion thread here.
I can't believe this could be happened before. Thank you very much！
Actually I am a normal translator from China, would like to do something to improve the communication between China and foreign countries.
If you like to translate what you want to say to China, making more Chinese people get your opinion, you can just post here, I am glad to be the brigde of two countries and cultures.
Hopefully it can be a good beginning which help people from both countries to undestand each other.

[AdityaM]

भाई तू क्या चाहता है ?
फराईड राईस और मंनचूरियन भेजदे

[Agnimitra]

ltaakat, let me be the first to welcome you here. Huanying. We appreciate the opportunity to hear how our Chinese neighbours talk about us. Keep it coming.

[member_20021]

Here I have a few questions,
1) Are the photos representative of what they were intended to show?
2) Are the captions biased, or balanced?
3) Do the comments look like being left by people who do not have any rights for expression?
4) What would the comments be from Indians if it is the other way around, ie the photos were for China?

[chaanakya]

Archanullah has just resurrected Panchasheel and Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai.

Unfortunately I don't buy into the argument. Business and collaboration ok but National interest above all.

Chinese have resorted to pin pricks all the time and latest one is "Shut Up" while damaging Indian interest in every possible way an unfriendly nation can.

So lets dis cuss Chinese interest in India.

And Xiānshēng Archan , you can delete this post as well ...

[chaanakya]

भाई तू क्या चाहता है ?
फराईड राईस और मंनचूरियन भेजदे

Raw materials and your land. Buy Chineser toys and fake spares.
Even unkil does it.

[member_20021]

ltaakat, let me be the first to welcome you here. Huanying. We appreciate the opportunity to hear how our Chinese neighbours talk about us. Keep it coming.

The translations are not the most accurate. Some notes:

"A'San" refers to people from the indian subcontinent who were brought by the British to Shanghai China as security guards. It is derived from "Ah Sir", when the guardsmen salute white males. The guardsmen were known to bow to the whites and bully the locals.

"Five-US-cents" refers to people who are thought to be professional posters employed by the US to influence public opinions in China. It is rumored that they are paid 5-US-cents per comment, hence the name.

[chaanakya]

Here I have a few questions,
1) Are the photos representative of what they were intended to show?
2) Are the captions biased, or balanced?
3) Do the comments look like being left by people who do not have any rights for expression?
4) What would the comments be from Indians if it is the other way around, ie the photos were for China?

After your comments and despite warnings from Bredator I dared to look at those photos. And I was reminded of similar photos posted about China by some members in other thread. Development is not a photowarefare.

[chaanakya]

Hopefully it can be a good beginning which help people from both countries to undestand each other.

Well you Missed the Bus, long back .

[member_20187]

भाई तू क्या चाहता है ?
फराईड राईस और मंनचूरियन भेजदे

I used google translation to translate the Hindi, not quite understand what you're talking about, sorry.

[member_20187]

ltaakat, let me be the first to welcome you here. Huanying. We appreciate the opportunity to hear how our Chinese neighbours talk about us. Keep it coming.

Thank you very much, hope we can develop a long-term friendship.

[member_20021]

Well you Missed the Bus, long back .

I realized, it is a waste of time to make efforts to communicate.

[member_20021]

ltaakat, let me be the first to welcome you here. Huanying. We appreciate the opportunity to hear how our Chinese neighbours talk about us. Keep it coming.

Thank you very much, hope we can develop a long-term friendship.

Yeah, too simple, sometimes naive.

[member_20187]

Here I have a few questions,
1) Are the photos representative of what they were intended to show?
2) Are the captions biased, or balanced?
3) Do the comments look like being left by people who do not have any rights for expression?
4) What would the comments be from Indians if it is the other way around, ie the photos were for China?

Hello mate, glad to answer your questions, in my personal point of views.

1) The photos are actually took by the reporters of the biggest Chinese portal NET EASE. I believe they want to show something that are positive in India to the most Chinese people who have little knowledge about India.

2)the captions were all translated as above, you can read and judge it by yourself

3)In fact, There is some restrictions in China when people expressing their views on the internet. But it is muh different from the situations that western media reported. Most restrictions are related to ***** information, and seldom related to the political issues. Chinese people are blaming the government and country leaders day by day on the internet, it is so common that no one feels weird about that. The only punishment is deleting the message if it is too much over the bottom line. It could say that Chinese people are quite free on the internet. However, comes to the reality, there might be much more limitations.

4)Not quite get what you mean. But if you would like to know, we can do it right now, try to post something relate to China with your comments, I can translate them into Chinese and put them on Chinese wesites, then translate their comments back to you.

[archan]

And Xiānshēng Archan , you can delete this post as well ...

response for you here http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1192398

[member_20187]

ltaakat, let me be the first to welcome you here. Huanying. We appreciate the opportunity to hear how our Chinese neighbours talk about us. Keep it coming.

The translations are not the most accurate. Some notes:

"A'San" refers to people from the indian subcontinent who were brought by the British to Shanghai China as security guards. It is derived from "Ah Sir", when the guardsmen salute white males. The guardsmen were known to bow to the whites and bully the locals.

"Five-US-cents" refers to people who are thought to be professional posters employed by the US to influence public opinions in China. It is rumored that they are paid 5-US-cents per comment, hence the name.

It seems you have great knowledge about these Internet slangs in China, lol, most of us using these slangs just for fun, we never mean to offend you, mate.

[member_20021]

@ltaakat:
你在浪费你的时间。殖民地心态的人是不会把善意当友谊的。慢慢学吧。
另, 那段印第语是取笑你, 把你比喻成中国餐馆跑外卖

You are wasting your time here. People with colonial mentality do not take good faith as friendship. You will learn. In addition, the paragraph in Hindi was mocking you as running a Chinese restaurant.

[archan]

@ltaakat:
你在浪费你的时间。殖民地心态的人是不会把善意当友谊的。慢慢学吧。
另, 那段印第语是取笑你, 把你比喻成中国餐馆跑外卖

Kindly post in English or provide translation. Thanks.

[member_20021]

@ltaakat:
你在浪费你的时间。殖民地心态的人是不会把善意当友谊的。慢慢学吧。
另, 那段印第语是取笑你, 把你比喻成中国餐馆跑外卖

Kindly post in English or provide translation. Thanks.

Yes, I did.

[member_20187]

Thank you very much, hope we can develop a long-term friendship.

你在浪费你的时间。殖民地心态的人是不会把善意当友谊的。慢慢学吧。
另, 那段印第语是取笑你, 把你比喻成中国餐馆跑外卖

I am not only representing myself, but also a crowd of people who are waiting for my news. Building a bridge is difficult, but difficult never means impossible. Bias and arrogance existing all around us, if we got a chance to change that, will you seize it, or just let it slip?
至少管理员的态度还不错，不是么
so I would like to try, cheers anyway.

[member_20021]

I am not only representing myself, but also a crowd of people who are waiting for my news. Building a bridge is difficult, but difficult never means impossible. Bias and arrogance existing all around us, if we got a chance to change that, will you seize it, or just let it slip?
至少管理员的态度还不错，不是么
so I would like to try, cheers anyway.

Good luck. You have already been suspected of ulterior motives.

[ramana]

Jimi, You have had your say. If you dont have anything else to say time to relax?

[Agnimitra]

You are wasting your time here. People with colonial mentality do not take good faith as friendship. You will learn.

Looks like you yourself are a case of bias and overweening derision, isn't it? Good faith is a perception that works both ways. You do realize that we Indians see the Chinese aggression of 1962 as a breach of good faith? Not to mention the continuous proliferation to a despiccable elite that controls the lands comprising Pakistan.

And the reference to "colonial" is supposed to kick us where it hurts our pride the most? ltaakat, please note that Jimi's attitudes have been drilled into most Chinese who try to learn about India. I appreciate your efforts to build bridges, but take note of some ideas that need to be weeded out.

Sure Jimi, we have suffered over the past few hundred years, under assaults from Mongols, Turks, Arabs, and just when we were about exhausted fighting them, the English took over hollowed us out economically. After all that India shared with China for 2000 years, you mock us when we were at our lowest point? That's a wonderful gesture of good faith?

Heck, at least our culture and civilization, its values and its structures have survived. China jetissoned everything and apes borrowed ideologies with a topping of "Chinese characteristics". Being grounded in our Dharma, we will rise again. I would suggest you toss your pre-packaged derision and make an effort to build bridges like Itaakat, because it will be beneficial for China, India and Asia in the coming decades. There are plenty of Indians like myself who will respond positively.

[anishns]

Narendra Modi in China, says Gujarat is different from rest of India

Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi wooed Chinese investments here on Wednesday saying his state was very different from the rest of India.

"Gujarat represents a very different model of growth," he told a gathering of business executives while explaining that the State's growth was both futuristic and sustainable in social and environmental terms.

Modi also got a Chinese company, TBEA, to lobby for Gujarat with other Chinese businesses. TBEA, which has bagged a major contract in Gujarat, recently kicked up a controversy when it displayed a wrong map of India that excludes Kashmir and Arunachal Pradesh at a function in New Delhi.

In his presentation, TBEA vice president Leng Yong cited the government policy structure and infrastructure in Gujarat as two important reasons why his company chose Gujarat among other Indian states.

[member_20021]

Good faith is a perception that works both ways.

Exactly right. Mind to review the train of responses to ltaakat's initial post, including the mocking in Hindi which the naive ltaakat went to google translate to find out?

[KLNMurthy]

Good faith is a perception that works both ways.

Exactly right. Mind to review the train of responses to ltaakat's initial post, including the mocking in Hindi which the naive ltaakat went to google translate to find out?

Do you have respect for Indians and their point of view which stems from their historical perspective, or do you expect every overture from your side to be automatically received with great joy that you have condescended to approach us?

This is a private space dedicated to an Indian nationalist viewpoint and you are here not by invitation but because you took it upon yourself for your own purposes. That is fine, we will be (mostly) polite and will listen to you but you have no business to expect anything more. You are expected to have decorum and it will be nice if you are able to appreciate the forum owners' generosity in allowing your presence. By coming here of your own volition, you are choosing to come on our turf and implicitly accepting our way of communicating with you, which might at times have an edge or questions about your purpose.

Hope your position here is clear.

[KLNMurthy]

If you read the TOI news article, there is nothing to suggest that Modi said Guj is different from the rest of India. The man was talking up Guj but the rest is from the headline writer's musharaf.

[Hari Seldon]

^^^Am reminded of a series of picture posts by one cutie_bj or something a year+ ago about her picture-travelogue of Aamchi Yindia.

Don't know how genuine such things are. I'd rather be wary anyway.

I met a Japanese Buddhist monk and his wife, here for a year for his studies. They'd travelled more of India in that 1 year than I've done in the past 10. They knew our epics - the ramayana and the mahabharatam - our major deities in our biggest temples, had named their infant son 'Koga', for Ganga in Japanese. They were so warm, friendly and genuine, was a pleasure to be around them. So yes, such people also exist. But Japan is not China. Its ancient cultural ties with India aren't condemned by the Japanese communist party and banned from popular consciousness. So I can understand the Japanese, the Indonesians, the Thais feeling some vague cultural kinship with us. But the present-day Chinese? Don't think so.

[KLNMurthy]

Communists always work by starting with a blank cultural slate, using extreme violence and genocide to bring it about. They then inscribe the slate with memes that suit the need of the hour as decided by the Party. You can see this under Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao. Our own dear comrades do this but with only partial success as they don't have the required complete power.

Chinese are at a disadvantage in any cross-cultural communication with Indians since they, having had their ancient culture forcibly lobotomized out of them, can only reason abstractly about our culture, with no hope of experiencing it at a deep level, whereas we have a pretty good insight into their collective psyche thanks to our dear Comrades.

[KLNMurthy]

Deleted duplicate post

[Theo_Fidel]

Our problems are with the China/Panda overlords.
Even if we have disagreements our problems are not with the Chinese people themselves.

That said...

Itaakat,

Where are you posting from.
You see for a looong time this forum has been banned in mainland China. Would like to know if things have changed.

thanx

[member_20021]

Do you have respect for Indians and their point of view which stems from their historical perspective, .

Respectable people would know that respects are earned.

Hope your position here is clear.

Are you implying that there is some kind of virtual "position" system at this forum? Are everyone equal before truth and reason?

[KLNMurthy]

@Jimi this is educational. Is your attitude typical for Chinese privilegentsia? If so, it makes sense that Chinese businesspeople are said to be disliked in Africa etc.

Interesting that you don't seem capable of understanding why it is strange to come uninvited into a private space, show no interest or respect for the culture of that space, and instead demand that the people in that space earn your rrspect.

[Suraj]

You are wasting your time here. People with colonial mentality do not take good faith as friendship. You will learn. In addition, the paragraph in Hindi was mocking you as running a Chinese restaurant.

Oh, this kind of treatment is absolutely par for the course, whether it's you here or me on a Chinese forum. Many of us have plenty of experience getting far worse treatment on Chinese boards over the last 10 years or so. You need thick skin to post, either way. It's nothing personal. Like Itaakat said, it takes time and effort. India is a place that fascinates all manner of people. Don't be so cynical. Stick around. Enjoy

[member_20021]

Interesting that you don't seem capable of understanding why it is strange to come uninvited into a private space, show no interest or respect for the culture of that space, and instead demand that the people in that space earn your rrspect.

Since you repeatedly stressed that this forum is a private space, did you mean that this forum is so "private" that voice like mine is not allowed? In this case, Admin can close my account.

[Suraj]

KLNMurthy and Jimi: please, knock it off. Enough of finger-wagging please. Just put each other on your respective ignore lists and continue.

[chaanakya]

And Xiānshēng Archan , you can delete this post as well ...

response for you here http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1192398

See my reply

[chaanakya]

Well you Missed the Bus, long back .

I realized, it is a waste of time to make efforts to communicate.

You realised too late dear.
If you are Chinese please state and we can communicate properly. btw how does it feel like Japanese aggression and opium war. Still holding it out against Japanese showing manly postures. Did you check out some of the pictures coming out from China , links posted in this forum? When these pictures are posted , did you realise that such pictures , however well intentioned they may be, do not portray real pictures rather try to reinforce the notions about India existing in alien minds which are not looked upon as MFN.
The problem with China is that their words and deeds are poles apart.How can you trust them?