India-China News and Discussion

[RajeshA]

Sure, China has learnt all from your Forward policy. Like I said, be a doer, not just a talker.

Get your dog to bite first!

[member_20021]

Here in the Indian Subcontinent people are not sane. We are often trigger-happy!

You convienced me what you said is true this time, using yourself as an example.

[Aditya_V]

quote="RajeshA"
Here in the Indian Subcontinent people are not sane. We are often trigger-happy!
You convienced me what you said is true this time, using yourself as an example.

Maybe but China's continuous support to Madmen of Pakistan with Nukes, delivery platforms is something which I am sure you will see will be regretted by China. The immoral position of position of giving missiles and Nukes to Pakis so that they can use them as Nuclear Umbrella for LET and other terrorist attacks across the border is really reprehensible and really can't be justified.

In the short term Chinese leaders for whatever reason might think these policies will benefit them but wait and watch, this policy will bite them just like the Americans are slowly learning today.

[RajeshA]

Here in the Indian Subcontinent people are not sane. We are often trigger-happy!

You convienced me what you said is true this time, using yourself as an example.

Glad I could help!

In fact, PLA is really doing our job. It is tough to convince Indian Governments to go for a hike in military spending. But PLA makes India jittery, and that is a good thing. I am sure the clever Zhenelals in PRC would also ensure that India goes for Thermonuclear Testing and much more!

Tell them, I love them!

[SSridhar]

Maybe but China's continuous support to Madmen of Pakistan with Nukes, delivery platforms is something which I am sure you will see will be regretted by China. . . . In the short term Chinese leaders for whatever reason might think these policies will benefit them but wait and watch, this policy will bite them just like the Americans are slowly learning today.

Aditya_V, China's arrogance will be its downfall. Its arrogance leads to recklessness. That was what happened in the transfer of nuke and missile technologies to the Terrorist State of Pakistan. Its handling of diplomacy with India in recent years shows that it shot itself in both its feet. Its handling of the affairs with all its neighbours smacks of the same arrogance. You cannot argue with arrogant nations. The have to suffer the consequences. The recent East Asia Summit (EAS) conference was one where China must have got some hint of how over a dozen of its neighbours view it. More will come soon.

[member_20021]

Here in the Indian Subcontinent people are not sane. We are often trigger-happy!

You convinced me what you said is true this time, using yourself as an example.

Glad I could help!

You just confirmed the diagnosis on your condition. Quite a few treatments are available for people in sane. ECT came to mind.

[RajeshA]

Jimi ji,

don't be too hung up on me. We are all like this onlee! You can't cure a population of 1.6 billion people of the Subcontinent. We have all got dormant rabies. You keep on poking and someday we just might lose our cool! And then you can kiss your Shanghais goodbye!

[member_20021]

Here in the Indian Subcontinent people are not sane. We are often trigger-happy!

You convinced me what you said is true this time, using yourself as an example.

Glad I could help!

You just confirmed the diagnosis on your condition. Quite a few treatments are available for people in sane. ECT came to mind.

Jimi ji,
don't be too hung up on me. We are all like this onlee! You can't cure a population of 1.6 billion people of the Subcontinent. We have all got dormant rabies. You keep on poking and someday we just might lose our cool! And then you can kiss your Shanghais goodbye!

Good to know, but not much difference in managing one, or couple of more, people not sane. SOP are there, ready to go, any time.

[RajeshA]

Jimi ji,

Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute to any discussion here on BRF, or do you want to just litter the place with your one-line droppings?

[Suraj]

RajeshA: please don't feed trolls.

[RajeshA]

Suraj ji,

I agree with you!

[Philip]

Beijing Monkeys caught with hands in bottle! Arms cargo declared as "fireworks"! Attempt to smuggle Patriots!
This is how China "develops" its arms industry,by stealing.

British-registered ship caught taking arms to China
Vessel impounded after 160 tonnes of explosives and 69 missiles were discovered on board

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 80392.html

A British-flagged cargo ship has been impounded by Finnish authorities after 160 tonnes of explosives and 69 surface-to-air missiles were found on board.

The Thor Liberty was on its way to Shanghai, China, after setting sail from the German port of Emden on 13 December. The British-registered ship, owned by a Danish firm, Thorco, docked two days later in Kotka, Finland, to pick up a cargo of anchor chains.

The missiles, produced by the US firm Raytheon, were discovered after a search of the vessel by customs officials. Petri Lounatmaa, a Finnish customs spokesman, said investigators did not yet know the origin of the Patriot missiles or who was supposed to receive them.

"We have impounded the explosives and missiles and asked the Defence Ministry to transport and store them," Mr Lounatmaa said.

"At this stage we don't know where it [the cargo] was loaded on the ship or if the Thor Liberty planned a drop before its port of destination in China." Mr Lounatmaa said customs officials and police have launched a joint investigation into a possible breach of Finnish export and weapons-trading laws. "We have started questioning the crew," Mr Lounatmaa said. "As the investigation continues decisions will be made about possible arrests."

Mr Lounatmaa said that there were about 32 crew members on board the vessel and that questioning them could continue well into Friday. Detective Superintendent Timo Virtanen, of the National Bureau of Investigation, said dock workers found the explosives – picric acid – stored on open pallets instead of in closed containers. They alerted inspectors, who found the missiles in containers with markings that indicated they were holding fireworks.

The Finnish Interior Minister Paivi Rasanen said she had not heard of a similar case. "Of course, there are legal transports of weapons or defence material [through Finland], but in this case the cargo was marked as containing fireworks," she told Finland's YLE TV.

[Hari Seldon]

^^^ Aah, Philip saar.

But shouldn't Yindia learn from the infalliable chinese in this instance also (as always), eh? Just wondering only....

[Philip]

Hari,"Yindia,the elephant that squeaks",do you thik that the current dispensation has the clinking metal between its legs to even contemplate the act of the mokey ,let alone attempt it? Nah! The prime leaders would be breaking into cold sweats if someone even suggested it to them.

[member_20021]

You are barking at the wrong tree. Obviously you are not only not sane but also not very smart. The ship is owned by a Danish company, and registered in UK. The missles were loaded in Germany, and destined to S Korea via the Finnish pot and Shanghai. This is believed to be clandestine arms supply related to the possible military conflict as a result of the death of Kim. The stop-over at multiple ports could be designed to evade close srutinity due to the heightened situation there. Somebody is preparing for war.

[VikramS]

I think every Chinese should know that India holds China responsible for TSP nukes. And if TSP nukes India, PRC is also getting it, no questions asked.

China knows. Just do it. The Chinese nation has been under nuclear threads from the USA and Soviet Unions for so many years, and it is just laughable to think that one more from your country would make much difference.

Not sure why you find it laughable. If i were in your place I would be worried.

The threat from US/Russia was a MAD type of threat. Plus it was with players with a well-defined structure of power and responsibility. A decision to use a nuke would have bee taken at the highest level with full scrutiny of the aftermath.

In the case of TSP we have An Army which is occupying a nation. To justify their excessive lifestyle they have trained these brain-washed Jehadi non-state actors who to the dirty work for them. Thanks to the events of the past decade, it is not clear who is in control and howe the command and control structures are organized. So the likelhood of a rogue element in TSP, takes the matters into own hands just went up a lot.

Each country with a nuke presents a different dilemma; the pakistani nuke also has this dimensions not many have truly fathomed

[Philip]

If it indeed was so,why the clandestine shipment of Patriots to SoKo? It is an acknowledged US ally that has US troops on its soil waiting to invade NoKo and could easily supply the Patriots faster by air if need be.The US could even spare some of its own Patriots from its Pacific bases .That the ship was also carrying explosives to the PRC is an interesting fact.Who knows what would've happened at Shanghai,if the Patriots-all,or a few of them, were also off-loaded! This is a version of how the LTTE duped the S,Africans into loading ammo for Lankan forces onto one of their own ships.There is something missing in the SoKo destination that will out later on.

As for PRC proliferation ,especially MWDs to Pak,also via NoKo to beat the US's certification that China was not a proliferator during Clinton's time;it is too well known to be repeated in detail,barring the fact that N-proliferation was the assymetric tactic which China used during the C-War to balance the US's huge superiority in WMDs.

[member_20617]

I checked on Wikipedia and found the following:

According to Department of Commerce, the fifteen largest trading partners of India represent 62.1% of Indian imports, and 58.1% of Indian exports as of December 2010. These figures do not include services or foreign direct investment, but only trade in goods.

The largest Indian partners with their total trade (sum of imports and exports) in millions of US Dollars for fiscal year 2010-2011[1] are as follows:

Country Exports Imports Total Trade
United Arab Emirates 34,349.10 32,753.16 67,102.26
China 19,615.85 43,479.76 63,095.61
United States 25,548.40 20,050.72 45,599.12
Saudi Arabia 5,227.19 20,385.28 25,612.46
Switzerland 677.56 24,802.00 25,479.55
Hong Kong 10,329.65 9,415.40 19,745.06
Germany 6,758.84 11,891.37 18,650.20
Singapore 10,302.71 7,139.31 17,442.02
Indonesia 6,245.33 9,918.63 16,163.96
Belgium 6,296.21 8,609.82 14,906.02
South Korea 4,140.37 10,475.29 14,615.66
Japan 5,191.23 8,632.03 13,823.26
Iran 2,742.46 10,928.21 13,670.67
Nigeria 2,259.09 10,787.72 13,046.81
United Kingdom 7,140.52 5,396.78 12,537.30

Does anyone know custom duties charged on Chinese goods imported by India and custom duties levied on Indian goods imported by China? The reason I am asking is that we need to ensure that there is fair play in this trade. My impression is that India does not charge any duty on Chinese goods and they have flooded Indian markets with cheap goods which have destroyed many small businesses in India. Yet the Chinese, I believe, charge 30% duty on Indian goods imported by China.

I think we need to ensure that we only import those items from China which are not detrimental to local industries and we also get ToT where appropriate. For example, we recently acquired tunnel boring machines from China to be used in Chennai for Metro. Reliance recently purchased gas turbines from China. We need to acquire these technologies to develop our own machines and turbines. If China refuses then we can get these types of machines and turbines from France, UK or Germany.

If the current trade imbalance continues in favour of China then I am afraid one day China may use this economic tool to wield its power over India without firing a single shot across the border!

[Aditya_V]

and to top it our exports is stuff like Iron ore while theirs is more of manufactured items for which thier Govt. gives 13% export incentives which we remove duties on all and sundry items of theirs. I have noticed every purchase guy in mine and other orgs, jump to deal with Chinese suppliers even for small items rather than by local.

Indian textile manufacturers have already faced the consequences of short sighted policy of shutting down local Indian dye manufacturers, its only a matter of time before the Govt which feels these imports are good for its customs duty collections and manufactures pay for this short sighted policies.

what typically happens is whenever a purchase guy is asked to show cost saving, what he does is gets a quote from a Chinese supplier at Ex-works basis, customs duty is calculated and approved. The actual landed in many cases where due to air freight is used is not calculated.

An apple to apple cost with forex losses, freight , bank charges, freight, air freight, demurrage charges is never done. Chances to travel to china to discuss with supplier is an added bonus.

Chinese suppliers also seem to have the relevant certifications developed to supply for their domestic industry which seems easier than finding an indian manufacturer and develop them for the relevant standards.

All this while domestic manufacturers are constantly harassed by Excise(excise and Service tax, dis allowance of CENVAT credit) and Sales tax departmentsto meet the Govt, deficit shortfall due big spending schemes and to add lack of power, lots of locations legislation's under PF,ESI, Factories, Industrial Disputes Act means manufacturing in India is really difficult to be profitable.

The Industries which seem to prosper are IT, Banking etc. which don't have to deal with Excise and Sales tax and local freight in addition to IT and Service tax.

[Christopher Sidor]

^^^^
Trade barrier between two states are not only based on tariffs. There are other non-tariff barriers. For example if country A has 10 ports and deems only one port for trade with country B then that port can effectively become a barrier in trade. Or for example Country A setting a policy/rule that trade in item A will only be done if certain standards or quality parameters are met. These standards or quality parameters can be tweaked so that they impact only select countries.
One of the Chinese NBT is the requirement that if foreigners wish to sell inside China they have to form a joint venture with a Chinese partner and sell through that only. If a foreigner wants to set up a manufacturing shop to export goods out of china alone then there is a lot of relaxations.

[member_20021]

I think every Chinese should know that India holds China responsible for TSP nukes. And if TSP nukes India, PRC is also getting it, no questions asked.

China knows. Just do it. The Chinese nation has been under nuclear threads from the USA and Soviet Unions for so many years, and it is just laughable to think that one more from your country would make much difference.

Not sure why you find it laughable. If i were in your place I would be worried.

What laughable is that you thought you know about China. There is a saying that, knowing nothing is naive but knowing little is dangerous. You are such an excellent example for the latter. Yes, China has a no-first use policy for nuclear weapons, which by default gives other countries, including India, the opportunity to launch a nuclear attack first. However, you should also know that China has a Guaranteed Self-Survival to back up this no first use policy. In stead of the MAD, GSS is implemented at three levels. The first is the underground civil defense network. China invested about 20 years during 1960~1980 to build extensive underground networks under all the cities. This People's Civil Defense system is at least 8 meters deep underground, and designed to protect personnels from nuclear, biological and chemical attacks with filtered air and purified drinking water. Note, this is not the recently reported underground Great Wall Project for the military. The inter-connected network is so extensive that in some cities underground water tables were altered and it took years to recover. The second is re-distribution of education institutions and industries all over China, with key military equipment production and storage in mountain ranges. The best military related institutions are not in Beijing or Shanghai; fighter jets are made in more than 5 centers all over China; even warships are built in inland cities with similar capacities to those in coastal cites. Thirdly, Chinese primary education is implemented in such a way that Chinese kids learn more in early years of their school. When Chinese 2nd grade kids go to the US, they can often enter 3td or even 4th grade classes for math and science. When my daughter came back to China when she was about to enter third grade in the US, she had to redo the 2nd grade courses, which made she extremely unhappy because she had to sit with kids younger (and shorter) than her. This does not mean that the Chinese kids are smarter; the kids are just forced to learn more and earlier. However, this measure ensures that in case of extensive full scale nuclear war, the surviving youngsters will have a 2 years head start to rebuild the nation. As a result, a nuclear attack on Shanghai, Beijing, and the Three Gorge Dam will not change the course of a nuclear war with China. It is up to India to start a nuclear war with China, but it will be up to China on how to finish it. Just like the 1962 Sino-India border conflict.

[Prem]

No, China already started the Nuke war by using its paw Pakistan. It will be India who is obliged to finish it on its own term and time of choosing . Chinese show their ignorance and shallowness by bragging and not realizing that we dont forget for generations. As i said , enjoy the short period of self claimed glory and the great company of esteemed civilized gangs like NOKO and Pakistan. We aint bothered as we know a small mind always brag and get filled very fast with very little . Mentally Liliputian PRC will never be in a position to dictate any Asian state, big or small . Rising India will make sure of this. Independent Nuclear Uighers and Tibbetan are in the interest of peaceful Asia.

[member_20021]

All the "will" talking became boring. Really boring.

[Dhiman]

All the "will" stuff is boring. Really boring.

Simple question sir. Assume that India gave nuclear boom boom to a random "splitist" group in china and these crazy splitist actually boom boomed a Chinese city using indian provided nukes.

In that case would china nuke India?

[Prem]

All the "will" stuff is boring. Really boring.

Is it ? then why come back with big boring bragg. if you think PRC is a power then we aint impressed with its cheap street wit. NO if but or will , just simple fact remain that copy cat culture and people cant be original and mentally remain Liliputtian. Stealing IPs and making fake stuff is not a sign of intelligence or creativity.
Try stopping us from exploring oil on the coast of Vietnam. Unlike PRC, Rise of India is soothing balm for Asia and the civilized world which perceive us as protector from the petty goon of Asia trying to muscle them using bully tacticts.Which BTW is another sign of petty mind, small intelligence and deceptive nature.

[member_20021]

Simple question sir. Assume that India gave nuclear boom boom to a random "splitist" group in china and these crazy splitist actually boom boomed a Chinese city using indian provided nukes.

In that case would china nuke India?

Some of you guys think insanity would make India invincible. Have you ever thought of that it is India which currently has active armed rebellions in 40% land administrated by India? Just note China rarely talks about nuclear retaliation. It is destructive, and so last century. China believes in construction, and always take constructive approaches towards national defense. It is ingrained in China's mentality. China built the national defense system (The Great Wall) and transportation system (The Grand Cannel) about 2 thousand years ago.

[Prem]

One of main feature of Chinese charachters is deception. Deception is in their blood as they think deception equals intelligence, smartness and being ingenuine. The two of their best friends are their 2 lap dogs NOKO and Pakistan which are in the process of being kicked out of civilized world but PRC enjoy their company as it uses them and train them to poop around in neighborhood. IMHO, it is best if independent Tibet and Uigherstan become de facto nuclear power to defend their territory from the common opressive enemy. Loose nukes in the hands of these 2 new countries is in the best interest of Asia and the World and guranatee their freedom.

[Dhiman]

Simple question sir. Assume that India gave nuclear boom boom to a random "splitist" group in china and these crazy splitist actually boom boomed a Chinese city using indian provided nukes.

In that case would china nuke India?

Some of you guys think insanity would make India invincible. Have you ever thought of that it is India which currently has active armed rebellions in 40% land administrated by India? Just note China rarely talks about nuclear retaliation. It is destructive, and so last century. China believes in construction, and always take constructive approaches towards national defense. It is ingrained in China's mentality. China built the national defense system (The Great Wall) and transportation system (The Grand Cannel) about 2 thousand years ago.

I am still waiting for the answer to my original question: assuming that India provided nukes to "splitist" who in turn nuked shanghai, What inyour opinion would china do insuch a scenario?

[member_20021]

The reality of "active armed rebellions in 40% land administrated by India" is not enough to wake you up from day dreaming? You will get the exact answer when those liberation forces have public demonstration for their devices.

[RajeshA]

People, it is better not to feed the troll!

[Dhiman]

"active armed rebellions in 40% land administrated by India" is not enough to wake you up from day dreaming? You will get the exact answer to your question when those liberation forces have a public demonstration for their .

So given that "splitist" Pakistan has already tested their Chinese supplied devices, what remains to be seen is whether the uighers or tibetians test one too, is that what you mean?

People, it is better not to feed the troll!

Almost done with him sir

[Suraj]

Locking thread for New Years clean up and eviction of trash.
There is now a new PRC thread http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=1&t=6283