India-China News and Discussion

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 24 Nov 2011 22:03

Please make sure to translate RajeshA's comments to the Chinese sites. The voice of Indians has to be heard by people in China. Get prepared.

Jimi..Why not Pranav's? Why do you think a German Citizen of ethnic Indian roots represents the voice of India? Here you clearly show a bias. Propagating only what you find distasteful, selectively.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 24 Nov 2011 23:03

So, the Indian version of Jackass made it to WSJ

Gruesome Punjabi TV Act a Global Sensation

Here's and interesting comment:

“I’m guessing Shaolin iron body kungfu must have come from India,” one viewer, Snow Love in Summer, wrote on the video site Youku, noting that Bodhidharma, the monk who supposedly founded Shaolin kung fu in the 5th or 6th century, is said to have come to China from India. “No wonder India dares to be so arrogant in the face of the Celestial Kingdom,” wrote osis-chen, a user of the popular Sina Weibo microblogging service, employing a popular slang term for the Chinese government.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Nov 2011 00:07

Jimi wrote:@itaaka,
Please make sure to translate RajeshA's comments to the Chinese sites. The voice of Indians has to be heard by people in China. Get prepared.

And don't forget to translate the part about China's imperialist occupation of Tibet, Chinese proliferation of nukes to Pakistan, and China drawing first blood in 1962. Go get prepared!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Nov 2011 00:09

harbans wrote:
Please make sure to translate RajeshA's comments to the Chinese sites. The voice of Indians has to be heard by people in China. Get prepared.
Jimi..Why not Pranav's? Why do you think a German Citizen of ethnic Indian roots represents the voice of India? Here you clearly show a bias. Propagating only what you find distasteful, selectively.

harbans ji,

my response is here.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Nov 2011 07:02

In simple terms, PRC wants to be the hegemon in Asia (to start with) and it is prepared to force, threaten and cajole other nations into submission to achieve that goal. Of course, India is a big impediment to that. People are waking up to the reality late, but waking up, nevertheless. It is our misfortune that two of the biggest threats, one a terrorist nation and another a wannabe-hegemon abut our land and have been colluding against us. The threat India faces is therefore enormous. It is no longer this or that. It is both and simultaneously.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Nov 2011 07:38

SSridhar wrote:In simple terms, PRC wants to be the hegemon in Asia (to start with) and it is prepared to force, threaten and cajole other nations into submission to achieve that goal. Of course, India is a big impediment to that. People are waking up to the reality late, but waking up, nevertheless. It is our misfortune that two of the biggest threats, one a terrorist nation and another a wannabe-hegemon abut our land and have been colluding against us. The threat India faces is therefore enormous. It is no longer this or that. It is both and simultaneously.

Since only Bharat can resolve these predatory ideologies, they end up becoming india's problems

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Nov 2011 09:35

I don't know what purpose this thread is achieving.

Some of the more jingoistic views from this side certainly has merit for discussion on the other China related threads - but wasn't this particular thread supposed to be to promote 'understanding' of each other's viewpoints ? As I understand it, the dialogue is being translated and maybe hundreds / thousands of Chinese who may have none of the background of the entire relationship may get to see snippets of this dialogue and derive conclusions from the 'tone' of the conversation rather than the logic.

If this thread lands up creating more ill-feeling than earlier, wouldn't that be counter-productive ? Logical arguments can be used on a one-on-one dialogue with guests who come on to BRF and are prepared to discuss / argue over several rounds and days, but when you have a mass of people this is being translated to, I just don't see a point unless both sides are prepared to genuinely use non-provocative language.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Nov 2011 10:30

Rajesh Ji, thanks for the clarification will keep in mind. However what i wanted to remind was that there's not much maturity or reason to discuss if only jingiostic or selective sentences are passed off without context to as Arjun say's possibly hundreds of thousands of viewers. In that context, neither me nor you can be qualitatively judged to be the 'Voice of India'.

Arjun Ji completely agree with your post. That troubles me what these Chinese posters see of a discussion. Our discussion is evolving. Obviously there's no doubt most Indians do resent Chinese occupation of Tibet. Chinese don't see discussion as an evolution, they deem everything black and white. So Rajesh Ji calls for nuking China irrespective of who attacks/ nukes India, remains his POV. The immaturity of the Chinese poster can be gauged from the fact that he sees what Rajesh ji says for instance in a black and white format. The evolutionary part of the discussion in it's developing and historical context is absent. So it does not really help one bit. Frankly from the translations i have not seen a single Chinese comment at any analytical level towards the problem between India and China. I think they feel good where in Deff and dumb type fora..everyone scratches each others back and says goody goody and then say what good friends we are. I don't think we need descend to that level. While i may not like everyone of Rajesh Ji's idea's and posts there are a lot i like and feel completely consonant with.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Nov 2011 10:53

harbans wrote:While i may not like everyone of Rajesh Ji's idea's and posts there are a lot i like and feel completely consonant with.

Harbans ji, Don't have a problem with the logic myself, but the tone and language used needs more consideration. In fact I recollect I had used the same logic on nuclear deterrence myself with one poster from China who posted on BRF late last year...

Let me take on some flak from the Indian end and say that I actually believe the Chinese are a very smart race as is evident from academic performance at any university (the only other race that competes with them is us Indians

)....but I doubt that all the hundreds or more that this thread is being translated to are very familiar with nuclear deterrence doctrines. So, to somebody who is not exposed to these matters - Rajesh's statements on nuclear missiles flying about may come across as extremely cavalier and an example of 'Indian hatred'.

Don't have a problem with the content of the arguments - but only with the way it is put across.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Nov 2011 10:59

harbans wrote:Frankly from the translations i have not seen a single Chinese comment at any analytical level towards the problem between India and China.

I agree with that assessment of harbans. While I do appreciate the efforts of ltaakat in translating, posting, re-translating and re-posting, the quality of replies from our Chinese friends leaves a lot to be desired, almost always. Just scratching the surface or taking a patronizing position won't do. That would not contribute to real 'understanding'.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Nov 2011 11:26

harbans ji,

my response is here.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Nov 2011 11:57

SSridhar wrote:I agree with that assessment of harbans. While I do appreciate the efforts of ltaakat in translating, posting, re-translating and re-posting, the quality of replies from our Chinese friends leaves a lot to be desired, almost always. Just scratching the surface or taking a patronizing position won't do. That would not contribute to real 'understanding'.

True...this is not the right forum if the interest is in smart-alecky responses or a comparison of whose slums are bigger.

On the other hand, this is the right foum if the Chinese want to have a serious discussion about the strategic impediments to better India-Chinese relations, or China-India history and cultures, or to discuss how the economies stack up and can work with each other. Also, the preference is for posts backed by logic and data, and the ability of individual posters to sustain a dialogue over multiple rounds depending on the points that they have raised.

It is possible that when there are hundreds of readers at the other end, group psychology might prevent some of these attributes. In which case, the rationale for having this thread may need to be re-evaluated.

partha · Post by **partha** » 25 Nov 2011 12:02

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 858329.cms

India jealous of China's growing clout: Chinese media

This is such a school boyish, immature statement. Not "growing super power"ish.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Nov 2011 12:17

So, to somebody who is not exposed to these matters - Rajesh's statements on nuclear missiles flying about may come across as extremely cavalier and an example of 'Indian hatred'.

Absolutely..something that Rajesh Ji has not realized. I do admit and apologize if need be for my misconception on the citizenship aspect, but the tone was generic and intended to tell the Chinese poster if he wants to hear India's POV then selective phrasing and putting up to Chinese bulletins Rajesh Ji's remarks sounds immature and pure propagandizing. Rajesh Ji's that particular remark gives opportunity to build up on a stereotype, without really being representative of opinion. 99.99% Indians wouldn't have a clue on deterrence..let alone a frozen stand of nuking China irrespective of who nukes India. So between Pranav Ji who would ideally like to forget the historical context and Rajesh Ji's finality of deterrence/ reaction, i am certain would lie the majority Indian POV.

Point is simple, that in the context of any free discussion, there will be a range of views. It's quite visible on this forum. Any view expressed is the view of the individual poster..not the nation as such. Whether German of Indian extract or purely of Indian extract. Fact is by bringing up Rajesh's hypothetical German citizenship, i ironically endorse his very point..that a 3rd party can easily influence conflict in Asia. That Chinese selectively take a Germans POV and push it enmasse amongst their brainwashed populations to show India is the real enemy. So there starts an internet war between Chinese and Indian posters..and in the end there's zilch analysis on the core. Why distrust between China and India exists. So my single liner post on citizenship was not intended more than that what i explained. If someone reads more into it..or there is it was not intended..apologies.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 25 Nov 2011 13:21

partha wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 858329.cms
India jealous of China's growing clout: Chinese media
This is such a school boyish, immature statement. Not "growing super power"ish.

This "Indian jealousy" and "implacable hatred" nonsense is precisely the image that certain Chinese (like our drone Jimi here) want to spread to the average Chinese person, and any other foreign devil who cares to listen.

But the fact is that the average Indian
- admires China's recent economic progress,
- enjoys Chinese martial arts and food,
- is deeply conscious of a 2000 year shared cultural and spiritual heritage with China,
- and, if anything, fears China because of its aggressive stance at times. Fear and worry, yes. Jealousy, no.

And this is what the likes of Jimi do NOT want the average Chinese people to know.

Itaakat bro, please translate this post and spread it around. It is important.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Nov 2011 14:02

harbans wrote:..and in the end there's zilch analysis on the core. Why distrust between China and India exists.

I asked a simple question here a few pages back in the context of China-Pakistan friendship. The Chinese poster referred to the 2008 assistance, howsoever minuscule it was, by Pakistan for the Chinese victims of earthquake as a reason for China's gratitude and hence friendship. Such type of extremely shallow answers are not conducive to 'real understanding'. My follow-up question of whether the poster was aware of India-China friendship before and after Indian independence and Pakistani stand on China until the dramatic 1963 border settlement between them went unanswered.

The point to be noted is that India has no grudge with China on its relationship with Pakistan. It is a matter between two sovereign nations. Our Chinese friends are well aware of what we are driving at but try to wriggle away by talking about inanities.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 25 Nov 2011 14:06

^^Agreed.

This risks becoming another propagandu thread for chini drones to misuse. Nothing new to see here. And to think the mods shelved the original PRC discussion thread coz this one came along

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 25 Nov 2011 17:44

Here is something to chew on!

1) Do we know on which Chinese portal the posts here are being translated. With whom are we talking here?

2) Would any Chinese posting on the Chinese portal ever be able to convey any positive thoughts or understanding regarding India's position on Tibet or nuclear arms to Pakistan, etc? Unlikely.

3) Does the view of any Chinese citizens matter, considering that they have zero influence in deciding their government and its policies? Unlikely.

So why all these high expectations of a dialogue between Indians and the Chinese?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Nov 2011 18:00

Chinese media statements about India's "inferiority" complex vis-a-vis China are just another pinprick from the Middle Kingdom,meant to annoy us and frighten our cowardly leadership led by the wimp of wimps.The avalanche of statements in recent times is to be taken seriously though as what China is trying to do is to badge India as a troublemaker,so that when the time comes to "teach us a lesson" once more ,the world will be mentally brainwashed for the event.

The method of dealing with China is to stop the flooding on its cheap goods into the Indain market which is having a devastating effect upon Indian industry especially the small scale sector.In the major cities,almost every roadside stall hawks cheap Chinese goods that are so poor in quality,but also so inexpensive that they attract buyers from the weaker sections of the economy,who earlier used to buy Indian goods.The media toldus today that the Chinese are having ahuge exhibition of their wares in Bombay.A massive tariff tax must be added to all Chinese imports as the huge inflow of Chinese goods os the single biggest factor responsible for the fall of the rupee and the inability of the GOI to stop rising inflation.China's cheap statements from its diplomats emphasises the contempt that the PC has for India,now further borne out by its spokesmen, about our inferiority.We must also add to the list a total ban on iron ore and other vital mineral wealth being exported to China abd .The more China insults us the more we should pay it back in the same coin.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 26 Nov 2011 02:19

partha wrote:
India jealous of China's growing clout: Chinese media
This is such a school boyish, immature statement. Not "growing super power"ish.

Can they be ever major responsible power

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 26 Nov 2011 02:37

Acharya wrote:"partha
[India jealous of China's growing clout: Chinese mediaThis is such a school boyish, immature statement. Not "growing super power"ish.Can they be ever major responsible power

Childish Rulers Of Kingdom( CROW)
Every time Chinese officially open their mouth , they ended up eating a delicacy called Fly. China's Ambassdor beating the desk demanding respect, Chinese Premier demanding respect from POTUS Obama and Congress, taking panga with Japan, india, Vietnam, Phillipine , Uighers and Tibetans are all kiddish acts.
All the time world thought they are SunZuish mature people but with every public outburst they keep removing the doubts of being just no more than Closet Pakis .

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Nov 2011 19:09

Just saw on NDTV that the reason why the India-China Border talks were suddenly put off was because China insisted on scrapping an intended speech by the Dalai Lama in New Delhi next week. China insisted that no talks could be had unless this was complied with. An outraged India decided to put off the talks.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 26 Nov 2011 19:51

Prem wrote: All the time world thought they are SunZuish mature people but with every public outburst they keep removing the doubts of being just no more than Closet Pakis .

Bingo. Further, with the leadership transition to come, things promise to worsen further. The iEmperor generation coming into power 2012 onwards is one that has scant regard for confucian virtues and is yet to experience life's teaching of hard lessons (which the Deng generation learned the hard way) will out paki the pakis. Jai Hu only.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 26 Nov 2011 20:26

Just saw on NDTV that the reason why the India-China Border talks were suddenly put off was because China insisted on scrapping an intended speech by the Dalai Lama in New Delhi next week. China insisted that no talks could be had unless this was complied with. An outraged India decided to put off the talks.

Sridhar Ji, pretty significant really. There's somebody in the South Block thinking straight on China. Cutting of border talks because of a Dalai Lama speech in Delhi..think i got to hand it to the South Block on this one. Nice to see India standing up to what is just and right.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 26 Nov 2011 20:57

partha wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 858329.cms
India jealous of China's growing clout: Chinese media
This is such a school boyish, immature statement. Not "growing super power"ish.

It is basically old school Communist parole-ridden propaganda, rhetorical, amateurish, unsophisticated, shallow, potato-level IQ propaganda.

Chinese commies are not even capable of dishing out some subtle sophisticated propaganda, and a 7-year old can see right through their gibberish.

But it seems the Chinese people still get conned, which really makes one wonder! Considering the low political IQ of the Chinese people considering that they are so easily conned, perhaps it is indeed correct that the Chinese people do not deserve Democracy, perhaps they deserve to be treated like little school-children and be shown their place in the apparatus.

But the world sees for what PRC regime really is: a third rate bully with insecurities!

aditya · Post by **aditya** » 27 Nov 2011 01:56

Presumably, one can expect a spurt in orders for stationery supplies to Chinese visa offices...

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Nov 2011 02:25

SSridhar wrote: I agree with that assessment of harbans. While I do appreciate the efforts of ltaakat in translating, posting, re-translating and re-posting, the quality of replies from our Chinese friends leaves a lot to be desired, almost always. Just scratching the surface or taking a patronizing position won't do. That would not contribute to real 'understanding'.

There is a possibility of the medium portraying a selective picture to suit one's agenda by selective quotation. In the process, both sides are fed wrong impressions of each other. If that is the case, then it is futile to fret over what kind of opinions are expressed in what context because the medium will only choose those opinions that suit its agenda.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 Nov 2011 03:10

China objects to Dalai meet, calls off boundary talks

NEW DELHI: China demanded that India cancel a Buddhist conference in Delhi which the Dalai Lama was expected to address. The conference coincided with the boundary talks between Dai Bingguo and Shivshankar Menon also to be held here. India refused. China cancelled the talks.
:
:
While China is a communist state, its Buddhist traditions remain alive and well. Recent reports said Xi Jinping, who is scheduled to succeed Hu Jintao next year, was born of a Buddhist mother, close to the Dalai Lama, who was even given Buddhist funeral rites. Yet as the party boss next year, Xi has taken a harsh stance on Tibet, vowing to stamp out Tibetan "separatism".

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 27 Nov 2011 04:41

In the interest of India-China news and discussion...

Presenting Shri. Russell Peter's take on Indians & Chinese:

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Nov 2011 14:03

SSridhar wrote:Just saw on NDTV that the reason why the India-China Border talks were suddenly put off was because China insisted on scrapping an intended speech by the Dalai Lama in New Delhi next week. China insisted that no talks could be had unless this was complied with. An outraged India decided to put off the talks.

MKB will ow bring out a 5 page marathon raving and ranting on how non-sense hawks in India caused a rebuff of the sweet innocent Chinese offers.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Nov 2011 18:58

PM and Prez skip Global Buddhist Meet in Delhi

NEW DELHI: With China upping the ante over the Dalai Lama issue, President Pratibha Patil and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh skipped the four-day Global Buddhist Conference that began on Sunday with the chanting of prayers to mark the 2,600th year of Buddha's enlightenment.

I feel so sad that the PM and President of our country cannot and WILL not attend to the Global Buddhist conference, just because an immature arrogant Bully like the Goddamned Godless Han China objects to HH Dalai Lama.

Shame that an Indian Head of State/ PM don't attend a centenary of a major Dharmic relgion that has been borne from this soil and propagated by it's most brilliant sons and daughters.

Shame MMS and Shame President and INC!

What understanding can we reach with these Godless people? Next will be boycotting other Dharmic faiths to appease Pakistan or Muslims or XYZ.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Nov 2011 20:16

TOI comments must read..hundreds every minute are standing up and shaming the GOI for lack of Dharma. I think the heart of this Dharmic nation is in the right place. Shame this Govt. This is not about real politik. This is about what one stands for. This Govt does not stand for Dharma.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Nov 2011 20:52

Surprisingly this is the BIGGEST capitulation to the Chinese in recent times. I was yesterday handing it over to the GOI that they've called off border talks on this conference..but this is an event of tremendous significance. Like India breaking it's bonds with Dharma. Surprising BRF'ites have not registered the import..yet. This is bigger the SeS and others folks. To live through this depravity on the part of the GOI is heart burning..to say the least.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 27 Nov 2011 21:27

^Really a sad day for India. If we are not willing to stand up for Dharma, what do we really stand for?

saadhak · Post by **saadhak** » 27 Nov 2011 21:42

harbans wrote:Surprisingly this is the BIGGEST capitulation to the Chinese in recent times. I was yesterday handing it over to the GOI that they've called off border talks on this conference..but this is an event of tremendous significance. Like India breaking it's bonds with Dharma. Surprising BRF'ites have not registered the import..yet. This is bigger the SeS and others folks. To live through this depravity on the part of the GOI is heart burning..to say the least.

Harbansji, I believe it has been typical of GoI in the majority of cases to blink first when negotiating with China.
This is another example of the lengths GoI will go to appease Chinese concerns. We have already seen similar non-sensical reasons cited in order to not offend Pakistanis. Basically, give up your beliefs so that your proclaimed enemies' sensitivities are not hurt. Spineless. Also I have doubts if a BJP led government would have behaved differently in the same scenario.

As for Dharma, given its track record in 'secularism', isn't it naive to expect this government to even have Dharma as a consideration when taking decisions?
From here, the reason why the Chinese's last demand - 'cancellation of the congregation' - was not fulfilled - because "ministers and officials of nearly half a dozen countries having already confirmed participation for the congregation, and given the scale and purpose of the event, New Delhi just could not concede to Beijing"

The first aspect to strike Beijing were the dates, which coincided with the SR-level talks on November 28-29. Second, the Dalai Lama was to deliver the valedictory address. Third, the organisers had claimed that the Indian President would inaugurate the congregation, and that the Prime Minister too may be present. Fourth, it would bring together Buddhist delegates from China’s neighbouring countries, put them on a common platform with the Dalai Lama, and get them all to plant saplings in a show of solidarity along with a common declaration.

All of this was too much for Beijing to digest. It made its first demand about 10 days back, asking India to keep the Dalai Lama out of this conference. New Delhi responded that the government had nothing to do with a “private enterprise”. Beijing pointed to claims by the organisers that the President and the PM may be present.

By now, South Block was worried. So, after internal consultations, the Chinese were assured that President and the Prime Minister would not be there. Initial plans to have the Dalai Lama at the inaugural dinner were scrapped. India also assured China that no Indian leader would share the platform with the Dalai Lama.

In consequence, the Dalai Lama was to reach Delhi on November 29, but attend no public function on that day. In trying to somehow salvage the situation, the Indian side pointed out that any public utterance by the Dalai Lama would come after the boundary talks had concluded. The government also assured adequate security arrangements in case the Chinese side feared protests.

At this point, China raised the stakes and said it would agree to nothing less than the congregation being called off. It was clear that the Dalai Lama was not the principal reason for the Chinese obduracy. With ministers and officials of nearly half a dozen countries having already confirmed participation for the congregation, and given the scale and purpose of the event, New Delhi just could not concede to Beijing.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 27 Nov 2011 22:33

Dipanker wrote:^Really a sad day for India. If we are not willing to stand up for Dharma, what do we really stand for?

Hopefully people will have more spine than the politicians.

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 27 Nov 2011 23:06

^^Sad SAD day for india.... Manmohan may think he is going down as a peaceful pm but i think that he is unaware of the fact that no one respects you till you stand up for something...

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Nov 2011 23:33

As for Dharma, given its track record in 'secularism', isn't it naive to expect this government to even have Dharma as a consideration when taking decisions?
From here, the reason why the Chinese's last demand - 'cancellation of the congregation' - was not fulfilled - because "ministers and officials of nearly half a dozen countries having already confirmed participation for the congregation, and given the scale and purpose of the event, New Delhi just could not concede to Beijing"

Saadhak ji thanks for the link. Amazing really..i have no clue what sort of considerations the GOI is onto. If they think it's Chanakyan..then balls to Chanakya for destroying Dharma. If it's real politik, then balls to real Politik. I'd take the Stand of Dharma any day. Satyameva Jayate or Dharma anyday above Chanakya or real politik. Over riding principle of life. Dharma will defend those that defend it with all they got.

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 28 Nov 2011 00:08

Goi is not going to do anything to annoy china to much. If china is extremely upset on this issue, it's better to take a step back. It's not as if we are conceding anything, just being little more sensitive to china. Goi is in full mode to get NSG membership and unsc permanent nod from china.
These two are two core objectives right now for India. I can understand that people are being hurt , but china has powerful military and 4 times the size of our economy. So get use to it, these kind things will go on in near future.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 28 Nov 2011 00:35

sukhish wrote:Goi is not going to do anything to annoy china to much. If china is extremely upset on this issue, it's better to take a step back. It's not as if we are conceding anything, just being little more sensitive to china. Goi is in full mode to get NSG membership and unsc permanent nod from china.
These two are two core objectives right now for India. I can understand that people are being hurt , but china has powerful military and 4 times the size of our economy. So get use to it, these kind things will go on in near future.

even if goi does something to annoy china then also what will china do..they should not even think of 1962 type misadventure.we as indians should hold our heads high,why should we fear the chines,,do the chinese fear us when they transfer weapons to pakis,do the chines fear us when they carry out spying in bay of bengal or make their presence felt in pok.
we should fear no one,