India-China News and Discussion

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harbans
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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby harbans » 07 Dec 2011 02:38

The CPC is retarded. Blaming Dharamsala and Dalai on the Monks is like Prison or Gulag authorities blaming others for not criticizing inmates who commit suicide, and blaming Gulag/ concentration camp authorities. Decimating systematically a unique and peace loving culture does not remind the CPC Bully it resembles more the Prison authority than a State with peace on it's agenda. Retarded Bullies. :evil:

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 07 Dec 2011 09:31

Arjun wrote:

As the world’s most dammed country, China is already the...

Interesting turn of phrase from BC !


Chellaney's article is shallow. Displaced people need to be generously compensated, and quality and seismic stability is a concern, but in general dam building is a good thing. China already has 170 gigawatts hydroelectric capacity.

Western development agencies tend to disfavor dam-building in third world countries because it is excessively beneficial for their economies. China's activities in other countries may interfere with their plans.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby harbans » 07 Dec 2011 12:19

China's building of dams in the developing world interferes with their plans.


I don't understand this fascination of admiration for the Chinese. The Chinese building Dams affects us more than the West any day. The Kailash Mansarover region rightfully shouldn't even be in Buddhist Tibet let alone China, it should in India as it's the holiest spot for Shiv Bhakths for millenia before BC. That's where all the major river systems for India and SE Asia originate. China plans to dam and divert waters Northwards to it's parched areas. That will affect hundreds of millions her in India and SE Asia. The Evil West have plenty of FW resources any day. You sound like MKB in that post..apologies.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby merlin » 07 Dec 2011 13:21

Pranav wrote:
Chellaney's article is shallow. Displaced people need to be generously compensated, and quality and seismic stability is a concern, but in general dam building is a good thing. China already has 170 gigawatts hydroelectric capacity.

Western development agencies tend to disfavor dam-building in third world countries because it is excessively beneficial for their economies. China's activities in other countries may interfere with their plans.


I don't agree at all. Large dams are not effective in terms of costs to benefits ratio.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 07 Dec 2011 15:13

harbans wrote:
China's building of dams in the developing world interferes with their plans.


The Chinese building Dams affects us more than the West any day. The Kailash Mansarover region rightfully shouldn't even be in Buddhist Tibet let alone China, it should in India as it's the holiest spot for Shiv Bhakths for millenia before BC. That's where all the major river systems for India and SE Asia originate. China plans to dam and divert waters Northwards to it's parched areas. That will affect hundreds of millions her in India and SE Asia. The Evil West have plenty of FW resources any day. You sound like MKB in that post..apologies.


That particular sentence was regarding Chinese dam building in other developing countries.

By the way, the only major Indian river whose flow the Chinese can affect is the Brahmaputra, and the effects will be felt by the Bangladeshis more than India.

I don't understand this fascination of admiration for the Chinese.

One should not let emotion cloud one's vision. Notwithstanding their faults, one thing which you can say about the Chinese is that they are not mentally colonized to the extent that our elites are.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby harbans » 07 Dec 2011 16:29

One should not let emotion cloud one's vision. Notwithstanding their faults, one thing which you can say about the Chinese is that they are not mentally colonized to the extent that our elites are.


Why assume others are emotional. MKB says exactly that 'we' should not let emotion cloud our judgement on China. I deal with China, do business with them and make several trips a year there at times. Why would i be emotional? As for 'mental' colonization: the very fact they erased their own culture in favor of an ideology rooted in the Czarist West speaks a lot. Today at a commercial level it has been supplemented by following 'White' fashion etc. Not that you don't see Westernization in India, but India maintains a large soft culture of it's own, which China doesn't. I don't buy the argument that criticizing China means we are being emotional. Anyways over on that.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 07 Dec 2011 17:11

The Chinese superiority complex is as bad,if not worse.The swaggering statements during the heyday of Colonialism,that the "sun never sets on the British Empire" and "God is an Englishman",are well matched with the Chinese conviction that all other mortals are either serfs or barbarians and that the "Middle Kingdom" ,between heaven and Earth ,reigns supreme.The accusations that it is India which is spurring on the Tibetan suicides is such a sick joke that should be treated with the contempt that it deserves.

Today we are faced with a China that has risen and is now exercising it muscles in a crude display of "exhibitionism".It is engaged in a "creeping conflict" with ndia,diplomatically,economically and militarily on the ground. If India does not react,it will be swept aside by the relentless tide of Chinese expansionism.in similar manner as the Nazis did in WW2,sweping aside country after country until faced with resolute resistance.Appeasement of the Chinese is the malaise with which the UPA-2 is displaying in all its ignominy.

Faced with such impudence from the Chinese officials,media and diplomats,India should seriously start to examine measureswith which the Chinese an also be taught a lesson,first in diplomacy,trade and later if neccesary,on the field of "honour",a word not to be found in the lexicon of current-day PRC Chinamen.Unless the GOI/MEA strongly rebut some outrageous statements emanating from the hyper-ventilating PRC mandarins,we will be seen worldwide as a weak,whimpering state,afraid to stand up for itself,values and sovereignity,and only capable of running to its "uncle" and squealing in protest!
The rebuttal about the Buddhist conference taking place and HH the DL's presence,was a very welcome first step.But was it just an exception,this new found defiance rather than the norm?

The Chinese only back off when they are countered and biffed in the face.A heavy duty on all Chinse goods and services which is threatening to destroy Indian industry and a surcharge on all Indian investment in China,is an absolute neccessity to make the Chinese realise that we are no pushovers and in fact their equals.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 07 Dec 2011 17:36

harbans wrote:
One should not let emotion cloud one's vision. Notwithstanding their faults, one thing which you can say about the Chinese is that they are not mentally colonized to the extent that our elites are.


Why assume others are emotional. MKB says exactly that 'we' should not let emotion cloud our judgement on China. I deal with China, do business with them and make several trips a year there at times. Why would i be emotional? As for 'mental' colonization: the very fact they erased their own culture in favor of an ideology rooted in the Czarist West speaks a lot. Today at a commercial level it has been supplemented by following 'White' fashion etc. Not that you don't see Westernization in India, but India maintains a large soft culture of it's own, which China doesn't. I don't buy the argument that criticizing China means we are being emotional. Anyways over on that.


Nehruvian DIEs' inability to think clearly, especially regarding international relations, is a result of mental colonization.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 07 Dec 2011 18:13

Pranav,a slight spelling correction if I may.
Mental "colon-isation",which leads to mental constipation!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby kancha » 07 Dec 2011 20:30

The fact that they are cocky & we continue cowering is in no short measure due to the 1962 defeat. This institutionalized memory of Chinese 'power' can only be erased by a military jhapad to the Chinese, trade sanctions may not work. It is indeed sad that the shadow of 1962 looms so large that people don't even know that the last military engagements at Nathu La & Chola resulted in utter humiliation for the same Chinese, or that the last major standoff in 1987 at Sumdorong Chu ended with the Chinese blinking first. Its a shame that we forget that we have proven more than equal to them in the battlefield on many occasions even in 1962, despite the inherent handicap of being an ill equipped army due to political shortsightedness. :evil:

Added Later : Here's what I posted in Profiles in Heroism thread. Need to bring to the fore, such incidents else all that we will know of 1962 will be the humiliation. http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1187054#p1187054

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 08 Dec 2011 02:55

Guess Lahori logic is being used in Beijing leading to deportation

9 Indian traders get sentenced

Nine Indian traders were today sentenced by a Chinese court with varied jail terms and fines for smuggling diamonds worth USD 7.3 million to the country even as 13 others got a reprieve as they were ordered to be deported in what was regarded a politically sensitive case. :?:

The case had become an irritant in bilateral ties and was taken up at various levels by the Indian leadership with their Chinese counterparts.

The Shenzen Intermediate People's Court in south China sentenced Raj Kumar Jain for six years, while Bavishi Rajukumar Babubhai and Soni Amitkumar Arunkumar for five years each.

In addition, Arunkumar has been fined three lakh Yuan, (USD 48,000). Rishit Manish Kumar Shah was sentenced to three years six months.

Four others, Dharm Veer Patel was fined 5 lakh Yuan (USD 80,000) Dhaval Vikulkumar Patel, Mitul Kumar Mafatlal Chhunchcha and Shah Nishith Garishbhai, Patel Vipulkumar Manubhai were sentenced to three year imprisonment each.

Jigar Prafulchandra Mehta was fined one million Yuan (USD 1.59 lakh) while 12 merchants were ordered to be deported.

Samir Arvindlal Shah, who was sentenced to one year eleven months, is entitled to be deported as he completed his term of his sentence.

Mehta could also be deported provided he pays the hefty USD 1.59 lakh fine.

The 22 traders hailing from Gujarat were arrested at Shenzhen and charged them with smuggling diamonds worth 50 million yuan (USD 7.3 million).

They were accused of sourcing at least 14,000 carats of diamonds illegally from Hong Kong, for sale on the Chinese market
.

They were accused of controlling a smuggling ring, working with "henchmen from Hong Kong", according to a reports published earlier in the local media.

Today's judgement, which was tensely waited by their families and the Indian diplomats, brought about a sense of relief as majority of them were entitled to be released sparing them of major prison terms.

The case became a delicate issue for the Indian diplomats as Chinese prosecutors flaunted video as well as documentary evidence about the involvement of the 22 traders.

While Prime Minister Manmohan Singh took it up with his counterpart, Wen Jiabao during latter's visit to New Delhi, External Affairs Minister S M Krishna took it up with his counterpart Yang Jiechi.

Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi took it up with the Chinese leadership for their release during his recent visit here.

As pressure mounted, the Chinese responded by permitting vegetarian food and access to their families and Indian diplomats.

Indian Ambassador S Jaishankar met them a month ago and spent some time with inquiring about their well being.

Still the case appeared dicey as another Chinese Court had sentenced an Australian businessman two days ago for 13 years.

He was convicted for bribery and embezzlement.

Noting that the prison terms for the Indian traders could be regarded as light, an Indian official here said that it is the result of prolonged diplomatic consultations between the two governments.

The issue was complicated as there was no prisoners exchange between the two countries.

Indian Diamond exports of late fared well as they were set to cross USD one billion mark this year.

The exports have crossed USD 926 million in the last ten months.



So what made the GOI take it up? Normally they dont do anything.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 08 Dec 2011 03:36

I'm not sure why people keep saying GoI is pussyfooting around with respect to PRC. We've effectively been questioning their territorial integrity since their creation, by hosting the Tibetan government in exile. By doing so we have just continued our historical strategic view of China being the territory beyond Tibet, and have continued to tacitly back the Tibetan movement's political and spiritual existence. By doing so we have delegitimized every Chinese territorial map since 1912, since both RoC and PRC extended the Qing era tributary relationship with the Tibetan dynasty into a territorial claim. The Chinese have never stopped resenting this.

There's no need to argue from a viewpoint that magnifies their perspective and belittles what we've done so far. There's a reason they scream loudly and we don't scream much; the side that strenuously wants a change of status quo is the one that will create the noise. Blunt refusals or quiet replies on our part just angers them more, as the continuing pattern of interaction indicates. I roll my eyes sometimes when the western press treats a short visit by the Dalai Lama as a statement of opposition to PRC policies. He's been residing fulltime in India for 50 years now, in the face of Chinese anger.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 08 Dec 2011 05:14

China must be put in its place - G.Parthasarathy in BusinessLine

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby tejas » 08 Dec 2011 09:01

How did this opinion piece get past the Chindu editors/censors? :eek:

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 08 Dec 2011 09:38

^. Every yellow shit, red shit in India are financed by west to subvert and subsume Indian elephant's power. Now dragon is fuming fire thinking of $$ might and its new shiny tooth. West with its team mates like SK and Japan are not good dragon slayers. Now they want thick skinned, intelligent India to bulldoze dragon. So expect measures like downsizing of drumming, drugging of elephant so that it regains its strength once again so that it might deter dragon flying far and fast.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 08 Dec 2011 10:04

merlin wrote:
Pranav wrote:
Chellaney's article is shallow. Displaced people need to be generously compensated, and quality and seismic stability is a concern, but in general dam building is a good thing. China already has 170 gigawatts hydroelectric capacity.

Western development agencies tend to disfavor dam-building in third world countries because it is excessively beneficial for their economies. China's activities in other countries may interfere with their plans.


I don't agree at all. Large dams are not effective in terms of costs to benefits ratio.


This is OT, but optimal size will depend upon topography. Storage capacity should be maximized.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 08 Dec 2011 10:09

tejas wrote:How did this opinion piece get past the Chindu editors/censors?

N. Ram does not have the same clout in BusinessLine as in The Hindu.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20292 » 08 Dec 2011 14:04

Pranav wrote:One should not let emotion cloud one's vision. Notwithstanding their faults, one thing which you can say about the Chinese is that they are not mentally colonized to the extent that our elites are.


No. They are as colonized or more in some ways. Most of my Chinese friends have an "American branded-goods-shopping-fever".

They love white people and marry them in greater number than indics do. Source uncertain, but, in the US, 13% of Indians marry outside the race. Chinese and Koreans more so.

Indian people are very culturally sensitive to their own values and concepts. The Chinese ideas have been destroyed repeatedly by their own govt. This causes them to rely and hold western ideas and institutions in very high regard.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 08 Dec 2011 15:10


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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RamaY » 08 Dec 2011 18:39

Dont know if this is same as what Ramanaji posted.

Added Later:
* NM is building his own relationship with PRC, the upcoming power, whereas INC system's interests are with the West. Remember where the (ill/mis)fortunes of each of these systems are located :wink:

* Need to see how long this traction can be maintained. A dream case scenario would be NDA comes to power and makes a convincing case against the pakroaches. :mrgreen:

* Looks like the 9 punished have a strong case against them. I am glad if that is the case and they are punished in China itself (until we cleanup the 2G scum at home). A bad apple removed is always good.



Diamond traders thank Modi for their release

Mumbai: For the families of the 13 diamond traders in Mumbai and Surat, yesterday was the greatest day of their lives as these traders, who were arrested by the Customs officials in China two years ago, were finally released.

Among the released traders, six are Mumbaikars, while the remaining seven hail from Surat.

Joy overflowing
"Since we got the news that my son has been freed, my place is abuzz with phone calls and visitors congratulating us. It's been a long wait for my family and me," said a delighted Ashok Shah, father of Sameer, a city-based diamond trader.

Kishan Shah, uncle of Parth N Shah, said, "This is the happiest moment of our lives. Finally, justice has been done. I will be able to see him very soon."

'Thank you, Modibhai'
While some of the released traders thanked their luck, most said that they owe their freedom to Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi, who managed to convince the Chinese government to consider the release of diamond traders during his visit to Beijing last month.

"Modibhai has played a big role in our son's release. It was because of his intervention that our sons will be back in India soon. Once my son comes home, I'll see to it that he seeks Modi's blessings," said father of another diamond trader from Surat, requesting anonymity
Opera House beaming
Diamond expert Hira Manik stated, "The news has brought a wave of happiness in Opera House. The traders in Mumbai and Surat will be thankful to Modi for his efforts in bringing back the traders to India."

The case
About 22 traders were arrested on January 8, 2010 in Shenzhen and charged with smuggling diamonds worth $ 7.3 million. These traders were accused of sourcing at least 14,000 carats of diamonds illegally from Hong Kong for sale in the Chinese market.

According to the reports published earlier in the local media, they were also charged with controlling a smuggling ring, working with 'henchmen from Hong Kong'. Officials of the Indian Consulate at Guangzhou attended the court proceedings.


Read more at: http://www.ndtv.com/article/cities/diam ... -156397&cp

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 08 Dec 2011 18:48

So China arrest some diamond traders. Narendra Modi goes over and frees them. The Gujarati diamond trader community is thankful to NaMo, and China gets a future PM of India to owe them a favor! Sweet! Everyone wins, except Indian interests!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RamaY » 08 Dec 2011 18:52

^ may be or may be not.

Please note 9 traders were punished. So why do we want to consider this as a favor from China. This is not like we released the Purilia convicts and got nothing in return...

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pranav » 08 Dec 2011 18:58

mahadevbhu wrote:Indian people are very culturally sensitive to their own values and concepts. The Chinese ideas have been destroyed repeatedly by their own govt. This causes them to rely and hold western ideas and institutions in very high regard.


I agree with that, but the CPC has a clearer understanding of international power politics and the motivations of various actors. Indian elites are confused.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 08 Dec 2011 19:01

RamaY ji,

I wanted to point out, that this is how China negotiates. It sets up a pressure point and then it forces you to negotiate with them and to enter into some compromise or you feel grateful and obliged.

Of course NaMo did the right thing getting those Gujaratis free! But the Chinese were able to force a dialogue with NaMo, whether he wanted one or not!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 08 Dec 2011 19:11

Indian activities in South China Sea commercial in nature:Government - ET

"Government has clearly conveyed (China) that such activities by Indian companies is purely commercial in nature and that sovereignty issues must be resolved peacefully by the countries which are parties to the dispute in accordance with international law and practice," E Ahamed, Minister of State for External Affairs, informed Rajya Sabha in a written reply.

The South China Sea dispute has also figured in talks between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his Chinese counterpart Wen Jiabao in Bali last month on the sidelines of East Asia and ASEAN summits.

According to Ahamed, sovereignty over the areas of the South China Sea is disputed between many countries and India is not a party to that.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RamaY » 08 Dec 2011 19:59

RajeshA wrote:RamaY ji,

I wanted to point out, that this is how China negotiates. It sets up a pressure point and then it forces you to negotiate with them and to enter into some compromise or you feel grateful and obliged.

Of course NaMo did the right thing getting those Gujaratis free! But the Chinese were able to force a dialogue with NaMo, whether he wanted one or not!


That is a good point and something must be remembered by Indian netas at all the times.

Even west and russia do that but in different ways.

Whether we can expect similar tactic from GoI is a different matter, but all Indians must be aware of this strategy and go into the game well prepared.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 09 Dec 2011 01:57

mahadevbhu wrote:
Pranav wrote:One should not let emotion cloud one's vision. Notwithstanding their faults, one thing which you can say about the Chinese is that they are not mentally colonized to the extent that our elites are.


No. They are as colonized or more in some ways. Most of my Chinese friends have an "American branded-goods-shopping-fever".

They love white people and marry them in greater number than indics do. Source uncertain, but, in the US, 13% of Indians marry outside the race. Chinese and Koreans more so.

Indian people are very culturally sensitive to their own values and concepts. The Chinese ideas have been destroyed repeatedly by their own govt. This causes them to rely and hold western ideas and institutions in very high regard.

Also it looks like they have completely given up their music in favor of western classical.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby krisna » 09 Dec 2011 02:14

RajeshA wrote:RamaY ji,

I wanted to point out, that this is how China negotiates. It sets up a pressure point and then it forces you to negotiate with them and to enter into some compromise or you feel grateful and obliged.

Of course NaMo did the right thing getting those Gujaratis free! But the Chinese were able to force a dialogue with NaMo, whether he wanted one or not!

sorry to butt in. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
why it is always that whatever good happens it is someone else doing for us and we are at their mercy.

Now NaMo is not the GOI or in the future also. A big question mark. :?:
chinese could have set up a pressure point with GOI as GOI has more powers than NaMo of a state.
why premature browning of pants when none was asked for. :rotfl:

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 09 Dec 2011 02:35

krisna wrote:
RajeshA wrote:RamaY ji,

I wanted to point out, that this is how China negotiates. It sets up a pressure point and then it forces you to negotiate with them and to enter into some compromise or you feel grateful and obliged.

Of course NaMo did the right thing getting those Gujaratis free! But the Chinese were able to force a dialogue with NaMo, whether he wanted one or not!

sorry to butt in. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
why it is always that whatever good happens it is someone else doing for us and we are at their mercy.

Well if the Chinese are letting some diamond "merchants" go after their detainment at the possible behest of NaMo, aren't the Chinese doing a favor? Where is the question in that? They could have simply put away those Gujarati diamond "merchants" in one of their many prisons and thrown away the keys? Justice, Truth and all that are simply sound bites. Chinese use their power as they wish!

krisna wrote:Now NaMo is not the GOI or in the future also. A big question mark. :?:
chinese could have set up a pressure point with GOI as GOI has more powers than NaMo of a state.

NaMo is definitely one of the most influential leaders of the second biggest political party in India at a time when the ruling party looks quite beleaguered. Why wouldn't somebody like to invest a bit in the future? Any businessman does that, and so do political players who think long term.

krisna wrote:why premature browning of pants when none was asked for. :rotfl:

why giving my comments useless twists where there aren't any!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 09 Dec 2011 02:40

I strongly agree on the negotiation tactic being used here. Merely sending someone to negotiate their release and reason was a mistake. The proper approach would have been to round up a bunch of Huawei/ZTE personnel in Bangalore and perp walk them in parallel. We need to learn how Chinese respond to any statement from the west - they respond with a counter statement, making up a fictitious case against some entity if necessary. It's a stretch to think NaMo would be indebted to them; if they theoretically come back N years later while he's PM and demand favors, what's stopping him from laughing in their face ?

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Dec 2011 02:57

RajeshA wrote:RamaY ji,

I wanted to point out, that this is how China negotiates. It sets up a pressure point and then it forces you to negotiate with them and to enter into some compromise or you feel grateful and obliged.

Of course NaMo did the right thing getting those Gujaratis free! But the Chinese were able to force a dialogue with NaMo, whether he wanted one or not!



RajeshA, Outside India, they are Indians onlee. Please do understand. Maybe UPA also thought same way and hence couldnt exert themselves to get them released?

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 09 Dec 2011 02:57

Suraj wrote:It's a stretch to think NaMo would be indebted to them; if they theoretically come back N years later while he's PM and demand favors, what's stopping him from laughing in their face ?

Suraj ji,

that may indeed be the case!

However from Chinese PoV, they facilitated NaMo to score points with the Gujarati diamond "merchants", which could translate into more support from them for his future election campaigns, etc. That is something they will keep reminding him and other Indian political players of. They have demonstrated "friendship" towards NaMo, and will remind him of that. "Friendship" creates its own "obligations"!

This has of course given them a window using which they can approach him for business opportunities in India and at some point political proposals as well.

Basically this is their Standard Operating Procedure for creating "lines of communication", relationships of "gratitude" etc. A sort of "dosti ka nazrana"!

Pakistanis of course have something similar. They offer help to Western countries to track down terrorists who target Western countries but were trained in Pakistan by Pakistan!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 09 Dec 2011 03:04

ramana wrote:
RajeshA wrote:RamaY ji,

I wanted to point out, that this is how China negotiates. It sets up a pressure point and then it forces you to negotiate with them and to enter into some compromise or you feel grateful and obliged.

Of course NaMo did the right thing getting those Gujaratis free! But the Chinese were able to force a dialogue with NaMo, whether he wanted one or not!

RajeshA, Outside India, they are Indians onlee. Please do understand. Maybe UPA also thought same way and hence couldnt exert themselves to get them released?

ramana garu,

My point was not about Gujaratis or Punjabis or Tamils or whatever! They are of course Indians.

My point was about discerning the pattern of Chinese thinking and their tactics. The fact that those Indians were Gujaratis would not have been lost on the Chinese. It is even possible that they were apprehended because they were Gujaratis for the sole purpose of getting NaMo to come to the Celestial Palace in order to receive their release.

krisna
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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby krisna » 09 Dec 2011 03:47

^^^^
RajeshA,
many of your statements in the above few posts are "as if the panda has informed you the reasons for their actions".
I find it amusing. :)
Anyway last word on this.

Suraj
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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 09 Dec 2011 04:13

RajeshA wrote:However from Chinese PoV, they facilitated NaMo to score points with the Gujarati diamond "merchants", which could translate into more support from them for his future election campaigns, etc. That is something they will keep reminding him and other Indian political players of. They have demonstrated "friendship" towards NaMo, and will remind him of that. "Friendship" creates its own "obligations"!

And what's stopping him from laughing in their face ? Obligations are created only when someone faces the threat of disclosure or loss. What will they do when he says no ? Reply "you're a bad boy! you promised!" ? :)

Seriously, why all this talk of 'Chinese deviousness' and 'planning long term' ? They're dealing with a bunch of Gujju banias (and I use that generic statement as a compliment to their mercantile talents) who are perfectly capable of returning the favour in kind, with interest. These are people who've taken on and outdone the Jewish diamond traders in their own home in Antwerp.

Sounds like the standard talk them up and talk us down mindset. Sorry, too much of a gobi manchurian candidate CT here.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 09 Dec 2011 11:35

krisna wrote:^^^^
RajeshA,
many of your statements in the above few posts are "as if the panda has informed you the reasons for their actions".
I find it amusing. :)
Anyway last word on this.

And don't the people on the Forum do that all the time with Pakistan - try to discern Paki mentality and their way of doing things?! So why is a dissection of Chinese mentality being laughed at? Are they some beings whose minds are inscrutable for mere mortals? Did I make the mistake in venturing into some field which is off-limits and one gets laughed at should one try to take a jab at it?! :roll:

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 09 Dec 2011 12:57

Suraj wrote:
RajeshA wrote:However from Chinese PoV, they facilitated NaMo to score points with the Gujarati diamond "merchants", which could translate into more support from them for his future election campaigns, etc. That is something they will keep reminding him and other Indian political players of. They have demonstrated "friendship" towards NaMo, and will remind him of that. "Friendship" creates its own "obligations"!

And what's stopping him from laughing in their face ? Obligations are created only when someone faces the threat of disclosure or loss. What will they do when he says no ? Reply "you're a bad boy! you promised!" ? :)

Anytime some leader brings back 'hostages', it raises his profile among the population. In a democracy, where a leader is dependent on the votes, that jump in favorable ratings does help at the Hustings. If the 'hostages' were from a well-off group, they would show additional gratitude to their liberator.

That is just simple ABC of such dynamics! There is no extraordinary gyaan I am bringing to it!

The 'hostage takers' would naturally present this as a favor on their part to the 'liberator' who comes to negotiate the release of the 'hostages'! It is indeed a favor, if the ransom is not being paid during release, if some 'compensation' or gratification is not being demanded immediately.

Now of course NaMo can laugh in their face for the favor! Nothing stopping him! But is that really how diplomacy works? Isn't there a saying about I scratch your back you scratch mines?!

If some passenger offers his seat to your old mother in a crowded bus, wouldn't you be thankful to him? Should he later on happen to step on your foot, wouldn't you be showing more clemency? Should he ask you to borrow your pen, wouldn't you oblige? Should he wish to strike a conversation, wouldn't you respond favorably? Or would you start laughing in his face? The passenger is hardly going to demand you to take off your pants and give it to him! Nor would the Chinese demand that NaMo pass on the nuclear codes to them once he has them!

Suraj wrote:Seriously, why all this talk of 'Chinese deviousness' and 'planning long term' ? They're dealing with a bunch of Gujju banias (and I use that generic statement as a compliment to their mercantile talents) who are perfectly capable of returning the favour in kind, with interest. These are people who've taken on and outdone the Jewish diamond traders in their own home in Antwerp.

Returning the favor in kind means taking a few Chinese into custody in Gujarat on some charge or the other, then getting Xi Jinping to come calling to Gujarat to negotiate the freedom of those Chinese "mischief-makers", and then making a public spectacle of it! Are the "Gujju banias" doing that?

Suraj wrote:Sounds like the standard talk them up and talk us down mindset. Sorry, too much of a gobi manchurian candidate CT here.

Why is everything one discusses about China forced to fit that square box? Who is talking them up? Who is talking us down?

I am just pointing out a 'pattern of diplomacy' the Chinese use! Why is that talking them up? And if I have not made any commentary on our behavior at all, where does the talking us down come in?

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby johneeG » 09 Dec 2011 13:21

Rajesh,
always like the way your think: creative and aggressive.

It is entirely possible that chinese may have deliberately targeted Gujaratis to get at NaMo. Also, I agree with your point that Chinese could have easily locked those merchants away. But they chose to release them.

It is not really difficult for someone(chinese position) to make such a calculated move. If it had not worked, then nothing lost, if it works then it works.

Just to clarify to others, that does not mean I believe that Chinese are ultra-chanakians. At the same time, I dont consider them stupid either.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 09 Dec 2011 13:34

johneeG ji,

thanks for your appreciation! :)

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Suraj » 09 Dec 2011 14:23

RajeshA wrote:Now of course NaMo can laugh in their face for the favor! Nothing stopping him! But is that really how diplomacy works? Isn't there a saying about I scratch your back you scratch mines?!

Let's reverse the situation. India has in the past stated Tibet is an integral part of China etc. Big favour to the Chinese of course. A very diplomatic move. Naturally they should have scratched our back. However, from all I've seen so far, they've only tried to stab us in the back instead.

Why would NaMo be the fairplay award winner in comparison ? The guy's shown his mettle in a hostile political environment where his own party was unsure of his national viability, and his opponents saw him as a livewire to direct their motivated opposition at. He didn't get where he is without being shrewd and determined. We give him little credit by pointlessly portraying him as some naive bakra waiting to bend over for PRC in the future.
RajeshA wrote:I am just pointing out a 'pattern of diplomacy' the Chinese use! Why is that talking them up? And if I have not made any commentary on our behavior at all, where does the talking us down come in?

Their actions are typical of them. Ascribing all sorts of could/woulds to NaMo is just CTgiri. Worse, it implies he doesn't have the brains to see through their behavior, and that he'll just play along fairly...


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