India-China News and Discussion

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member_20187
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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 10 Nov 2011 08:56

Theo_Fidel wrote:Our problems are with the China/Panda overlords.
Even if we have disagreements our problems are not with the Chinese people themselves.

That said...

Itaakat,

Where are you posting from.
You see for a looong time this forum has been banned in mainland China. Would like to know if things have changed.

thanx

Currently in UK , working for my phd degree. Not sure whether this site is banned in China or not.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 10 Nov 2011 09:25

Carl wrote:
Jimi wrote:You are wasting your time here. People with colonial mentality do not take good faith as friendship. You will learn.

Looks like you yourself are a case of bias and overweening derision, isn't it? Good faith is a perception that works both ways. You do realize that we Indians see the Chinese aggression of 1962 as a breach of good faith? Not to mention the continuous proliferation to a despiccable elite that controls the lands comprising Pakistan.

And the reference to "colonial" is supposed to kick us where it hurts our pride the most? ltaakat, please note that Jimi's attitudes have been drilled into most Chinese who try to learn about India. I appreciate your efforts to build bridges, but take note of some ideas that need to be weeded out.

Sure Jimi, we have suffered over the past few hundred years, under assaults from Mongols, Turks, Arabs, and just when we were about exhausted fighting them, the English took over hollowed us out economically. After all that India shared with China for 2000 years, you mock us when we were at our lowest point? That's a wonderful gesture of good faith?

Heck, at least our culture and civilization, its values and its structures have survived. China jetissoned everything and apes borrowed ideologies with a topping of "Chinese characteristics". Being grounded in our Dharma, we will rise again. I would suggest you toss your pre-packaged derision and make an effort to build bridges like Itaakat, because it will be beneficial for China, India and Asia in the coming decades. There are plenty of Indians like myself who will respond positively.


well...not sure what has happened here before....
As my personal experience, most indian people that I met were quite friendly, they like to talk, like to take photos everywhere, like to help others. I've got some classmates that from India. They are well-educated, have good knowledge about economic and political issues in the world. They are especially good at examinations. When we do our presentations, we all welcome Indian team members, cuz they are the best presenters.lol~

Anyway, most Indian people are very nice guys. That is reason I come here.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Nov 2011 10:10

This is how a political should be in foreign trips

Narendra Modi in Beijing, tells China 'Pakistan is making use of you'

He raised a few controversial issues including the one about the presence of Chinese troops in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir during his talks with Communist Party leaders in Beijing.


Modi also questioned the wisdom of a Chinese transformer maker, TBEA, displaying a wrong map of India at a function in New Delhi, which resulted in a sharp exchange of words between a journalist and Chinese ambassador in India, Zhang Yan.


Chinese leaders carefully listened to his concerns about the long detention of 22 Gujaratis, mostly diamond merchants, who have been languishing in jails in China without trail for close to two years, Modi said. "I was not expecting a promise. You cannot get results in one meeting. But I am sure they have understood our feelings on the subject," he said.


If you grovel no one respects you.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 10 Nov 2011 10:12

Another India-China face-off at the UN
India and China are facing off again, this time over an election to a UN body. A Gopinathan, India's envoy to the UN in Geneva, is India's candidate to the UN's only external oversight body, Joint Inspection Unit. It's a post India last held in 1977 and wants to return to.

China has held the post since 2003 and wants to renew it in 2012. China's candidate is Zhang Yan, currently ambassador to India, and due to retire soon. {of the 'shut-up' fame}

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 10 Nov 2011 10:19

ltaakat wrote:well...not sure what has happened here before....
As my personal experience, most indian people that I met were quite friendly, they like to talk, like to take photos everywhere, like to help others. I've got some classmates that from India. They are well-educated, have good knowledge about economic and political issues in the world. They are especially good at examinations. When we do our presentations, we all welcome Indian team members, cuz they are the best presenters.lol~

Anyway, most Indian people are very nice guys. That is reason I come here.

ltaakat, welcome to BR and its fora. Hope you will enjoy the dialogue here and contribute equally too.

I have also had interaction with a few Chinese and have only positive things to say about them. At least one of my relatives is married to a Chinese. The India-China civilizational interactions go a long way back. Recent history is very troubled and there is no glossing over that. Statecraft is very different from personal interactions.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Agnimitra » 10 Nov 2011 10:29

ltaakat wrote:well...not sure what has happened here before....
As my personal experience, most indian people that I met were quite friendly, they like to talk, like to take photos everywhere, like to help others.

Anyway, most Indian people are very nice guys. That is reason I come here.

My experience with Chinese, in person, is also along similar lines. Very hard working and serious. Maybe a bit too serious at times! :P I was dating a lovely Chinese girl in college a few years back, too. And a couple of my friends went all the way and married Chinese girls, and are settled happily with them back in India now. There is some level of affinity between Chinese and Indians that I can't put my finger on. But it needs to be cultivated. We Indians have open minds and the future has potential.

But what I meant in my last post referred to the likes of Jimi and other Chinese friends who take a political interest in India. Somehow or the other they get infected with a certain b!tchy "attitude" from reading their own government's source material on 'India'. It includes a standard repertoire of outrage, anger and contempt for India, and lots of silly challenging arguments. One Chinese classmate of mine was seething when he recalled to me India's nuclear tests that happened in 1999. He demanded to know why India said that the primary threat was China. The reason for his anger is partly his ignorance of all that the PRC has done to proliferate WMD to rogue nations like Pakistan. Another reason is how India is portrayed historically to Chinese schoolchildren. And third is Mao Zedong's discomfort with the fact that a great part of Chinese culture was derived from Indian culture via Buddhism. He wanted to remove all traces of this.

So I hope that this recent psychological baggage that China carries does not become a stumbling block in the future of India-China relations, which are very important for the stability of Asia and the world. You see, what America wants is for us to go to war, and we shouldn't fall into that trap. Welcome to the forum again.

Theo_Fidel

Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Theo_Fidel » 10 Nov 2011 11:18

Itaakat,

Thanx for the clarification.

I fear we remain banned from the mainland. So this conversation will never get back to vast majority of Chinese. Pity. :(

IMHO the main problem the lay Chinese have with India is the visual perception of filth everywhere. This is a frustration for Indians as well. Things are getting better but very slowly. Many Chinese have trouble getting through that metal block. There has to be way to overcome this barrier.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 10 Nov 2011 11:34

Itaakat,

I personally have had not direct interaction with any Chinese. But will like to say to you that I have great respect for the ancient Chinies civilization and its accomplishments.

I today feel that India and the PRC (Please note that I use PRC and not China) will continue to a troubled relations with each other. When the PRC is finished and China takes its right full place in the world, India and China can become leading lights in that world. But until that time we will be forced to have adversarial relations. The one thing PRC can do to change my opinion of it self, is to end its victim's narrative and how it needs to restore it self and seek justice for historical wrongs.

It needs to get more comfortable and attain peace with it self. When it reaches that stage it will have become the leading light of Asia and the world. Today it is just the neighborhood bully. It will be resisted by every one else.

IOW, it needs to stop being PRC and start becoming China.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 10 Nov 2011 17:52

PLA says "India sees China as a de-facto competitor"
Terming India's proposal of "massive up-gradation" of defence infrastructure along the Sino-Indian border as "bold moves", Beijing on Thursday said it implied that New Delhi was "starting to treat China as a de facto competitor".

Calling it India's repositioning of its national security strategy, the People's Liberation Army (PLA) said it would be the largest such mobilisation since the Sino-Indian border clashes of 1962.

Reacting for the first time to reports of Indian defence infrastructure up-gradation, the PLA daily said within five years, India is set to deploy 90,000 more soldiers and raise four new divisions along its borders with China.

The Chinese military daily also noted that India was in the final phase of choosing a new fighter for its air force in what is said to be the world's largest defence deal.

Referring to New Delhi's decision in October to deploy BrahMos cruise missiles against China, the daily said this would be "the first time it has taken such a step with offensive tactical missiles".

India is also pushing for its first joint air force and naval exercises with Japan, which Indian defense minister A K Antony revealed during his visit to Japan last week, it said.

There were also discussions proposing trilateral dialogue involving India, US and Japan that experts said were aimed at keeping China in check and Beijing has not commented on the matter, it said.

But the PLA daily said India's moves appear to be more political rather than military objectives.

"China has always adhered to the principle of 'peaceful rise'. But this has been misinterpreted by some countries as a 'rising threat'," it said.


All this act of 'injured innocence' does not stack up against the Chinese actions. Let's see some of them.

  • Along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), the Chinese road and infrastructure construction activity is going at a feverish pace. On the other hand, China objected to a shed being constructed by the J&K government at Demchok in Ladakh. In July 2011, the Chinese soldiers damaged a wall erected by India in the disputed area near Tawang in Arunachal. The Chinese soldiers came across to the particular part of Yangtze where India has a wind-breaker wall, stretching for almost 200 metres, and damaged it. The wall is an old structure. The around 200-metre long wall is made up of large stones put loosely on each other and provides protection to Indian soldiers from icy winds during patrol. There have also been at least a couple of instances this summer {circa 2011} when the Chinese soldiers tried to drive through the disputed area manned by Indian troops in the Finger Area in northern Sikkim. The Chinese Army had violated the International Border in Ladakh region by intruding 1.5 Kms inside Indian territory at Mount Gya and painted boulders and rocks in the area red as ‘China’ with spray paint. There has also been increased air-space violation by Chinese helicopters in these regions.
  • PLA soldiers, estimated at about 11000, have occupied portions of Balwaristan though the Pakistanis have denied that and said that they were only helping the 27000 families of Baltits who are caught on the northern side of the Attabad lake formed due to landslide in March, 2010. While denying Chinese presence in these areas, the Chinese spokeswoman insensitively referred to these areas as ‘Pakistan’s northern parts’. The Indian Army confirmed that a battalion of PLA soldiers was deployed at the Khunjerab Pass that straddles the border between Tibet and Balawaristan. Chinese troops are now seen stationed along the Line of Control between India and Pakistan. The Chinese have also been involved in infrastructure activities in POK unmindful of Indian sensitivities and strong objections.This Pakistan-China nexus in this most sensitive border area of India has been of great security concern for GoI. This concern is not unfounded because Pakistan had ceded to China in c. 1963 the Shaksgam Valley which is a part of J&K under illegal occupation by Pakistan. In c. 1987, Pakistan formally recognized the Aksai Chin area, seized illegally by China from India, as belonging to China.
  • Satellite pictures show several tunnels, estimated to be 22 in number, at various places along with convoys of trucks (likely to be PLA) and activities at road construction in the glaciated places of Balawaristan. There are reports suggesting that the Chinese are mining high-grade Uranium here. The Balawaristan area belongs to India and is under illegal occupation by Pakistan. Recovering these areas from Pakistani occupation remains a 'core interest' to India. Such Chinese moves suggest that China considers India as a 'de-facto competitor'.
  • Under the guise of engaging Pakistani military in counter-terrorism exercise, PLA has begun to exercise in all the sectors (LoC and IB) along the India-Pakistan border and very close to the border too. Today, PLA's presence extends from GB to the Sind. Such Chinese moves suggest that China considers India as a 'de-facto competitor'.
  • Chinese hackers have been relentlessly targetting Indian websites engaging India in a cyber terrorism. During the recent Commonwealth Games, the Chinese cyber attack started just after the inauguration and continued until the closing ceremony.
  • China has located medium-range missiles in Tibet targeting India. China was seen replacing its liquid-fuelled CSS-2 (DongFeng 3) missiles along the LAC with more modern solid-fuelled Medium Range Ballistic Missile CSS-5 (also known as DongFeng 21) with 250 kT nuclear warheads. The Chinese, have not denied the development but simply said that it was “normal for the Army to develop and renew weapons and equipment given the progress of science and technology”.
  • In mid-2011, Indian Navy detected a Chinese spy vessel that was disguised as a fishing trawler, picking up crucial Bathymetric data, currents of the Indian Ocean, the temperature at various depths and also very crucially, underwater obstructions and obstacles etc. off the Andamans
  • With five fully-operational airbases, an extensive rail network and over 58,000-km of roads in Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR), China can now move more than 30 divisions (each with over 15,000 soldiers) at their "launch pads" along the 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC) within a month’s time, outnumbering Indian forces by at least three-to-one.

While PRC can pretend its 'peaceful rise' for all it wants, no country in Asia, not the least India, considers that statement to be true. Indeed, everyone knows it is utterly false and self-serving only. PRC that transfers nuclear weapons and delivery platforms to be used solely against India has no right to even complain about defensive Indian measures.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 10 Nov 2011 20:09

Aditya_V wrote:This is how a political should be in foreign trips

Narendra Modi in Beijing, tells China 'Pakistan is making use of you'

He raised a few controversial issues including the one about the presence of Chinese troops in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir during his talks with Communist Party leaders in Beijing.


Modi also questioned the wisdom of a Chinese transformer maker, TBEA, displaying a wrong map of India at a function in New Delhi, which resulted in a sharp exchange of words between a journalist and Chinese ambassador in India, Zhang Yan.


Chinese leaders carefully listened to his concerns about the long detention of 22 Gujaratis, mostly diamond merchants, who have been languishing in jails in China without trail for close to two years, Modi said. "I was not expecting a promise. You cannot get results in one meeting. But I am sure they have understood our feelings on the subject," he said.


If you grovel no one respects you.




According to the China-Pakistan issue, as far as I know, Chinese people considered Pakistani are very friendly, they helped us lot in many aspects, so we respect them. Of course we also respect any nation in the world that is kind and friendly. The people in China actually have no hostility to any other nation, if you have chance to travel around China, you will find it by yourself. :)

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 10 Nov 2011 20:15

SSridhar wrote:
ltaakat wrote:well...not sure what has happened here before....
As my personal experience, most indian people that I met were quite friendly, they like to talk, like to take photos everywhere, like to help others. I've got some classmates that from India. They are well-educated, have good knowledge about economic and political issues in the world. They are especially good at examinations. When we do our presentations, we all welcome Indian team members, cuz they are the best presenters.lol~

Anyway, most Indian people are very nice guys. That is reason I come here.

ltaakat, welcome to BR and its fora. Hope you will enjoy the dialogue here and contribute equally too.

I have also had interaction with a few Chinese and have only positive things to say about them. At least one of my relatives is married to a Chinese. The India-China civilizational interactions go a long way back. Recent history is very troubled and there is no glossing over that. Statecraft is very different from personal interactions.


Thank you for your comment, I agree with you, we used to be good neighbours in the past thousands years. Both two countries should clear the misunderstanding of each other, and encourage mutual communication, in economy and politics.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 10 Nov 2011 20:35

ltaakat wrote:According to the China-Pakistan issue, as far as I know, Chinese people considered Pakistani are very friendly, they helped us lot in many aspects, so we respect them.

I think we know here some of the help that PRC has received from Pakistan. Yet, we would like to know from you some of that help. Can you please list a few of them ?
Of course we also respect any nation in the world that is kind and friendly. The people in China actually have no hostility to any other nation, if you have chance to travel around China, you will find it by yourself.

I can say the same about India as well. I hope you are aware of Dr. Kotnis and the immense support China had received in its formative years from India. Please do visit our country which is open and welcomes visitors with warmth.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 10 Nov 2011 20:36

Carl wrote:
ltaakat wrote:well...not sure what has happened here before....
As my personal experience, most indian people that I met were quite friendly, they like to talk, like to take photos everywhere, like to help others.

Anyway, most Indian people are very nice guys. That is reason I come here.

My experience with Chinese, in person, is also along similar lines. Very hard working and serious. Maybe a bit too serious at times! :P I was dating a lovely Chinese girl in college a few years back, too. And a couple of my friends went all the way and married Chinese girls, and are settled happily with them back in India now. There is some level of affinity between Chinese and Indians that I can't put my finger on. But it needs to be cultivated. We Indians have open minds and the future has potential.

But what I meant in my last post referred to the likes of Jimi and other Chinese friends who take a political interest in India. Somehow or the other they get infected with a certain b!tchy "attitude" from reading their own government's source material on 'India'. It includes a standard repertoire of outrage, anger and contempt for India, and lots of silly challenging arguments. One Chinese classmate of mine was seething when he recalled to me India's nuclear tests that happened in 1999. He demanded to know why India said that the primary threat was China. The reason for his anger is partly his ignorance of all that the PRC has done to proliferate WMD to rogue nations like Pakistan. Another reason is how India is portrayed historically to Chinese schoolchildren. And third is Mao Zedong's discomfort with the fact that a great part of Chinese culture was derived from Indian culture via Buddhism. He wanted to remove all traces of this.

So I hope that this recent psychological baggage that China carries does not become a stumbling block in the future of India-China relations, which are very important for the stability of Asia and the world. You see, what America wants is for us to go to war, and we shouldn't fall into that trap. Welcome to the forum again.


The US rules the world, now but not forever. We believe that the world should be managed by all the countries in the world, no one is superior than others. The western world played roles of robbers in the past hundred years, harmed the rest of the world, they've done really bad things to the others. I believe Indian people have the same feeling as well. Today, people should prevent this tragedy happen again.
Urging more communication and collaboration could be a salution, or maybe something else I don't know. But anyway, the globalization is a good trend, we should follow it, and achieve it.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 10 Nov 2011 20:57

SSridhar wrote:I think we know here some of the help that PRC has received from Pakistan. Yet, we would like to know from you some of that help. Can you please list a few of them ?

According to my knowledge, the biggest help that we received from Pakistani was in 2008, when the great earth quake occured in Sichuan Province. Pakistani sent their strategic reserved commodities, pharmaceutical products and medicines to us, which they were supposed to keep for defence use. It moved all the Chinese at that time. There is an old saying in China,
“Little help brings much return.” Chinese people always rememer who helped them in the past, and will reward them even more in the future. There are some else support from Pakistani, like economic cooperation etc. I cannot translate them all into English, but we will never forget.

I can say the same about India as well. I hope you are aware of Dr. Kotnis and the immense support China had received in its formative years from India. Please do visit our country which is open and welcomes visitors with warmth.

Actually I had a plan to do so, in order to meet some Indian friends there,lol~
Last edited by member_20187 on 10 Nov 2011 21:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 10 Nov 2011 21:05

Pratyush wrote:Itaakat,

I personally have had not direct interaction with any Chinese. But will like to say to you that I have great respect for the ancient Chinies civilization and its accomplishments.

I today feel that India and the PRC (Please note that I use PRC and not China) will continue to a troubled relations with each other. When the PRC is finished and China takes its right full place in the world, India and China can become leading lights in that world. But until that time we will be forced to have adversarial relations. The one thing PRC can do to change my opinion of it self, is to end its victim's narrative and how it needs to restore it self and seek justice for historical wrongs.

It needs to get more comfortable and attain peace with it self. When it reaches that stage it will have become the leading light of Asia and the world. Today it is just the neighborhood bully. It will be resisted by every one else.

IOW, it needs to stop being PRC and start becoming China.


It will, some day it will be the only CHINA.
Thank you for you advice.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Agnimitra » 10 Nov 2011 21:07

X-post from GDF Link Languages thread:

SaiK wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article2614127.ece?homepage=true

Great! Mandarin for link language!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 10 Nov 2011 22:07

Nice Propaganda Thread!

Chinese are nice! Pakistanis are nice! Indians are nice! Everybody is soooo nice!

The day Chinese leave Tibet, I'll be the first to declare China a possible friend! Till then we can continue this hollow propaganda here! We can invite Mr. Snake over for tea and talk about the weather! The air is perfumed but the ground reeks of poison!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 10 Nov 2011 23:56

ltaakat wrote: Of course we also respect any nation in the world that is kind and friendly. The people in China actually have no hostility to any other nation, if you have chance to travel around China, you will find it by yourself. :)

Few Countries around your neighborhood like Japan. Philippines, Vietnam to name few are friendly to you or are you friendly to them? Your avowed friendly countries are like North Korea ,which is a rogue nation, and Pakistan ,which is sponsor of terrorism. China has been biggest nuclear proliferator of the World. Actually you are quite peeved at Pakistani supporting ( of course non state actors) terrorism in Xinxiang. How long your relation with that den of snake would continue is to to be seen.The moment pakistan becomes irrelevant for Unkil and India you would drop it like a hot potato. Besides attitude of China in international relations, Pakistan is going to be your biggest liability.
Since China is suspected to have provided Nukes to Pakistan , the moment it tries anything funny (acting as proxy of China) , your country gets equal response. How your country is going to deal with that.?

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby KLNMurthy » 11 Nov 2011 00:26

RajeshA wrote:Nice Propaganda Thread!

Chinese are nice! Pakistanis are nice! Indians are nice! Everybody is soooo nice!

The day Chinese leave Tibet, I'll be the first to declare China a possible friend! Till then we can continue this hollow propaganda here! We can invite Mr. Snake over for tea and talk about the weather! The air is perfumed but the ground reeks of poison!


Hindi-Chini bhai bhai!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby hulaku » 11 Nov 2011 13:25

From the first post on this forum by our Chinese friend

In India,there are nearly 100 milliom people living in slums.Although treated as a phyma of the city,the slums can provide the poor with land,jobs,the right to vote, and the opportunity to change their fate.And this is protected by laws.For indian paupers,a slum is a home that can protect their dignity.For India,the slums are the compulsory routes of urbanlization.

I find it actually quite funny, all these Chinese references to people living in slums in India and their condescending remarks about the same. Maybe they all saw Slumdog Millionaire and thought "these poor Indian slumdogs". But reality will tell you otherwise and for all the Chinese proud of their gleaming skyscrapers and high rises (mostly empty) there is a dose of reality they require.
In the past decade, China made improvements to the daily conditions of 65.3 million urban residents without shelter, while India lifted 59.7 million citizens out of poor housing.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/8573300.stm

But more interestingly
Proportionally, China’s urban population living in slums fell from 37.3% in 2000 to some 28.2% in 2010, a relative decrease of 25%.
India has lifted 59.7 million people out of slum conditions since 2000. Slum prevalence fell from 41.5% in 1990
to 28.1% in 2010. This is a relative decrease of 32%.
http://www.unhabitat.org/documents/SOWC10/R2.pdf

So as per the UN Habitat Agency more people live in urban slums in China then in India.

Of course both countries are doing what is necessary to get people out of these slums as underlined in the BBC report.

So the next time our Chinese friends talk about slums in India do let them know about the saying about Glass houses and stones.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 11 Nov 2011 14:23

ltaakat wrote:The US rules the world, now but not forever. We believe that the world should be managed by all the countries in the world, no one is superior than others. The western world played roles of robbers in the past hundred years, harmed the rest of the world, they've done really bad things to the others. I believe Indian people have the same feeling as well. Today, people should prevent this tragedy happen again.

ltaakat, oh yes. The US and the colonial powers of Europe had sucked the resource-rich poor countries for a few hundred years of their valuable wealth. No doubt. You might not have experienced much f colonial overlording. As a nation that suffered over 200 years of their rule, India has been determined from day one not to let that history repeat. We do not want one hegemon to replace another, throwing international conventions, laws and treaties to the wind, riding roughshod over others and claiming all resources of planet earth for itself while professing to be peaceful. I am sure China also appreciates this Indian stand.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 11 Nov 2011 14:34

ltaakat wrote:According to my knowledge, the biggest help that we received from Pakistani was in 2008, when the great earth quake occurred in Sichuan Province. Pakistani sent their strategic reserved commodities, pharmaceutical products and medicines to us, which they were supposed to keep for defence use. It moved all the Chinese at that time. There is an old saying in China,
“Little help brings much return.” Chinese people always remember who helped them in the past, and will reward them even more in the future. There are some else support from Pakistani, like economic cooperation etc. I cannot translate them all into English, but we will never forget.

Oh, sure. I am, however, surprised that you are able to recall only this 'little' help and that too only very recently, that Pakistan rendered to you though it was rendered at a critical time. I am sure that the deeper-than-the-deepest-ocean, sweeter-than-the-sweetest-honey, and taller-than-the-tallest-mountain all-weather friendship between you two neighbours goes many decades prior to the 2008 earthquake. If I recall correctly, in 1962 Pakistan decided suddenly to become very friendly with PRC, even while it was part of the fierce anti-communist military pacts with the hegemonic West. The friendship blossomed then between the two of you and has never looked back. Can you throw some light on the help that Pakistan provided to you, during the period between 1962 and the 2008 earthquake, which as a Chinese, you may always remember ?

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Anabhaya » 11 Nov 2011 15:20

Modi goes to China

But despite the importance of business relationships and investment opportunities for Gujarat this visit is as much about the overall Indo-China relations.

The invitation, the feting and extensive coverage of Modi’s visit is China’s way of engaging with what they see as a potential new establishment that may soon occupy the seats of power in New Delhi. If and when Modi succeeds the Chinese would be well prepared to engage the new establishment – their interpretation of Modi and his worldview carefully deduced and analysed during this five day visit.

The amount of coverage in Chinese media and the level of importance being given to the visit by the Chinese government are signs that they do seem to take Modi’s chances rather seriously.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby shankara » 11 Nov 2011 15:31

Thanks Itakaat. It was a good post. Have not seen the photos.

Interesting comments that show the frustration of many common Chinese with their communist masters. Have never come across such views of Chinese before. Thanks again and welcome:


看了这些照片,我觉得印度超越中国不是不可能,也许它发展的很慢,但基础扎实,经济的发展建立全体国民都能分享发展成果的基础上的。
Seen these photos, I think India over China is not impossible.Although their development is slow,But they have a solid foundation.Economic development is built on the foundation that all citizens share the fruits of development.

一位贫民窟居民说:“我们才是这里的主人。不是政府,不是富人,也不是慈善机构”“贫民窟人是人,不是狗”——他们会为土地拼命地,胜负以不言而喻。
A slum resident said:"We are the masters here,not government,not rich, not the charity." "we slumdwellers er human beings & not dogs"-----They will fight hard for the land,everyone knows who will win in Future.


没有信仰的民族比不上贫民窟的贫民。
A nation without faith, failure than the slums of the poor.


India to implement the system of private ownership of land but also provides:In the absence of the live on the ownerless land for 10 years,it‘s will be owned by you all.


写这的,肯定是屁民(只要min zhu),觉得印度好,自己干嘛不移民过去,享受最纯的min zhu !
The man who Write these articles,must being "Fart people".You thinking india is good,Why are you do not go to india to enjoy the most pure democracy ?


一群没有土地没有选票的人在争论着民主的坏处,多么可笑的事!就像一群太监在争论性生活有多伤身体
It's ridiculous that a group people are arguing the disadvantages of democracy while they have no land and ballot, just like some eunuchs think about the sex is less health for body.

印度的贫民窟住的受法律保护,而我们住的房屋随时都可能被国家征收,所以我们大多数人都不如印度贫民窟!!!!!!!
Living in slums in India are protected by law, and we live in housing may be collected by the state at any time,So most of us poorer than the poor in India.

美分杂碎们一直不敢对我提的问题作答:60多年前印度先于中国独立,从开始到今天一直选票制度,而且没有经二战、内战破坏,独立之初各领域全面领先中国,今天美分杂碎们为什么却叫喊着要超过中国?他们一直是领先的,按照美分杂碎们说法先进的印度对中国的领先该越来越大的
"Cents" and garbage have been afraid to face and answer my question :Sixty years ago,India's first independent than China,Up to now has been a ballot system.And no World War II and the civil war damage india.when independence, India's leading in all aspects of China.Why today they say:"India will exceed china?"They're always leading,Statement in accordance with "cents",India should advanced to the growing China's leading.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 11 Nov 2011 19:20

RajeshA wrote:Nice Propaganda Thread!

Chinese are nice! Pakistanis are nice! Indians are nice! Everybody is soooo nice!

The day Chinese leave Tibet, I'll be the first to declare China a possible friend! Till then we can continue this hollow propaganda here! We can invite Mr. Snake over for tea and talk about the weather! The air is perfumed but the ground reeks of poison!


Sorry, I don't want to debate with you on historical issues, both you and me understand it is a waste of time. Due to our different history books, we have different historical perspectives. No one in the world can say the history he read was definately right. So I'm not gonna debate with that anymore.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 11 Nov 2011 19:41

chaanakya wrote:
ltaakat wrote: Of course we also respect any nation in the world that is kind and friendly. The people in China actually have no hostility to any other nation, if you have chance to travel around China, you will find it by yourself. :)

Few Countries around your neighborhood like Japan. Philippines, Vietnam to name few are friendly to you or are you friendly to them? Your avowed friendly countries are like North Korea ,which is a rogue nation, and Pakistan ,which is sponsor of terrorism. China has been biggest nuclear proliferator of the World. Actually you are quite peeved at Pakistani supporting ( of course non state actors) terrorism in Xinxiang. How long your relation with that den of snake would continue is to to be seen.The moment pakistan becomes irrelevant for Unkil and India you would drop it like a hot potato. Besides attitude of China in international relations, Pakistan is going to be your biggest liability.
Since China is suspected to have provided Nukes to Pakistan , the moment it tries anything funny (acting as proxy of China) , your country gets equal response. How your country is going to deal with that.?


People are willing to believe the things they like to believe, even there is no proof to that. There are numerous political issues included in China's foreign policies. It is hard for me to judge it, cuz I don't like to comment on things that I have not enough knowlegde.
However, you can take the US as an example, when they achieved independence in 1776, how many countries in the world like to be its friends? Enermies are surrounding America. But now, you can see what has changed. So it is meaningless to discuss inter-country relationship, benefit determines everything. You can be my friend today, He can be her enermy tomorrow, vice versa.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 11 Nov 2011 19:47

Itaakat ji,

what is there to debate then? On what basis are you looking for friendship with India? Is there anything substantial to what you offer to India in trust or is it just hot air and a lot of condescending words about our slums?

China needs to sit back and think very hard on its course! Sure it can pursue an aggressive imperialist course as it is doing now, but it is going to collapse in the years ahead like every other imperialist power! Or China can pull back to its traditional borders and consolidate its civilization!

China today has very little to offer the world than either
  1. ravaging of their resources or
  2. flooding their markets with their cheap products or
  3. proliferating nuclear weapons technology to them or
  4. providing armies and militias with an abundance of small arms and ammunition or
  5. offering some cash to prop up some economies, just so that China can exploit them further and make them submissive to Chinese diktat, or
  6. simply taking over their territory as is the case with East Turkestan, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, Taiwan, etc.

Other than that, can you tell me one thing China has to offer the world?

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 11 Nov 2011 19:48

ltaakat wrote:So it is meaningless to discuss inter-country relationship, benefit determines everything. You can be my friend today, He can be her enermy tomorrow, vice versa.

Wrong! As long as you sit in Tibet, you'll have eternal conflict with the Indian Subcontinent!

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 11 Nov 2011 19:53

SSridhar wrote:
ltaakat wrote:The US rules the world, now but not forever. We believe that the world should be managed by all the countries in the world, no one is superior than others. The western world played roles of robbers in the past hundred years, harmed the rest of the world, they've done really bad things to the others. I believe Indian people have the same feeling as well. Today, people should prevent this tragedy happen again.

ltaakat, oh yes. The US and the colonial powers of Europe had sucked the resource-rich poor countries for a few hundred years of their valuable wealth. No doubt. You might not have experienced much f colonial overlording. As a nation that suffered over 200 years of their rule, India has been determined from day one not to let that history repeat. We do not want one hegemon to replace another, throwing international conventions, laws and treaties to the wind, riding roughshod over others and claiming all resources of planet earth for itself while professing to be peaceful. I am sure China also appreciates this Indian stand.


mate, I think I can understand what you're talking about, we all fear the things that we don't know. China had a similiar miserable history like India, so we know how it feels, we just hope this will never happen again.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 11 Nov 2011 20:01

ltaakat wrote:China had a similiar miserable history like India, so we know how it feels, we just hope this will never happen again.

... except if it is China doing it! :lol:

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Hari Seldon » 11 Nov 2011 20:12

RajeshA saar,

Splendidly argued case. I doubt any patriotic Indian will now fall for chini guile so easily, at least for a while, on this forum.

Thanks again.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 11 Nov 2011 20:12

RajeshA wrote:Itaakat ji,

what is there to debate then? On what basis are you looking for friendship with India? Is there anything substantial to what you offer to India in trust or is it just hot air and a lot of condescending words about our slums?

China needs to sit back and think very hard on its course! Sure it can pursue an aggressive imperialist course as it is doing now, but it is going to collapse in the years ahead like every other imperialist power! Or China can pull back to its traditional borders and consolidate its civilization!

China today has very little to offer the world than either
  1. ravaging of their resources or
  2. flooding their markets with their cheap products or
  3. proliferating nuclear weapons technology to them or
  4. providing armies and militias with an abundance of small arms and ammunition or
  5. offering some cash to prop up some economies, just so that China can exploit them further and make them submissive to Chinese diktat, or
  6. simply taking over their territory as is the case with East Turkestan, Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, Taiwan, etc.

Other than that, can you tell me one thing China has to offer the world?


Hatred has dusted your eyes, so you can not see anything you DO NOT like to see, look at these exclamatory marks and interrogation marks you typed, keep clam mate, this is not gonna work. Things you listed are actually not the things that China contributed to the world, I believe you yourself know it as well, you just trying to provoke me(cannot find a suitable word here, hope you know what I am talking about), I'm not gonna take that, anway, cheers for responding, mate.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 11 Nov 2011 20:20

shankara wrote:Thanks Itakaat. It was a good post. Have not seen the photos.

Interesting comments that show the frustration of many common Chinese with their communist masters. Have never come across such views of Chinese before. Thanks again and welcome:


看了这些照片,我觉得印度超越中国不是不可能,也许它发展的很慢,但基础扎实,经济的发展建立全体国民都能分享发展成果的基础上的。
Seen these photos, I think India over China is not impossible.Although their development is slow,But they have a solid foundation.Economic development is built on the foundation that all citizens share the fruits of development.

一位贫民窟居民说:“我们才是这里的主人。不是政府,不是富人,也不是慈善机构”“贫民窟人是人,不是狗”——他们会为土地拼命地,胜负以不言而喻。
A slum resident said:"We are the masters here,not government,not rich, not the charity." "we slumdwellers er human beings & not dogs"-----They will fight hard for the land,everyone knows who will win in Future.


没有信仰的民族比不上贫民窟的贫民。
A nation without faith, failure than the slums of the poor.


India to implement the system of private ownership of land but also provides:In the absence of the live on the ownerless land for 10 years,it‘s will be owned by you all.


写这的,肯定是屁民(只要min zhu),觉得印度好,自己干嘛不移民过去,享受最纯的min zhu !
The man who Write these articles,must being "Fart people".You thinking india is good,Why are you do not go to india to enjoy the most pure democracy ?


一群没有土地没有选票的人在争论着民主的坏处,多么可笑的事!就像一群太监在争论性生活有多伤身体
It's ridiculous that a group people are arguing the disadvantages of democracy while they have no land and ballot, just like some eunuchs think about the sex is less health for body.

印度的贫民窟住的受法律保护,而我们住的房屋随时都可能被国家征收,所以我们大多数人都不如印度贫民窟!!!!!!!
Living in slums in India are protected by law, and we live in housing may be collected by the state at any time,So most of us poorer than the poor in India.

美分杂碎们一直不敢对我提的问题作答:60多年前印度先于中国独立,从开始到今天一直选票制度,而且没有经二战、内战破坏,独立之初各领域全面领先中国,今天美分杂碎们为什么却叫喊着要超过中国?他们一直是领先的,按照美分杂碎们说法先进的印度对中国的领先该越来越大的
"Cents" and garbage have been afraid to face and answer my question :Sixty years ago,India's first independent than China,Up to now has been a ballot system.And no World War II and the civil war damage india.when independence, India's leading in all aspects of China.Why today they say:"India will exceed china?"They're always leading,Statement in accordance with "cents",India should advanced to the growing China's leading.



Thank you very much! You are the first one who talks about my post, but not kept asking me political questions. This is right what I want to do here-----sharing information and thoughts to both countries. This is what the word "bridge" means.

I don't like debating, unless it is unavoidable. So don't force me to debate with you guys, thanks.
Last edited by member_20187 on 12 Nov 2011 01:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Agnimitra » 11 Nov 2011 20:38

Itaakat, thanks for your responses. Please continue the positive thread while paying attention to the different views expressed (even though some of those views are expressed strongly).

ltaakat wrote:According to the China-Pakistan issue, as far as I know, Chinese people considered Pakistani are very friendly, they helped us lot in many aspects, so we respect them. Of course we also respect any nation in the world that is kind and friendly. The people in China actually have no hostility to any other nation, if you have chance to travel around China, you will find it by yourself. :)

See the thing is, if you want to talk about a relationship between mature civilization states like India and China, we have to maintain a level of maturity in looking at things. When you say, "Chinese people considered Pakistani are very friendly, they helped us lot in many aspects, so we respect them", it seems naive at best. Consider the following:

1. Pakistan was the favourite Asian pet dog of the USA during the Cold War. It was a nation created by the British imperliaists when they were forced to leave India, in order to continue to pin India down. It is a nation that was left hostage to a corrupt ruling elite.

2. Suddenly after 1962 Pakistan started "helping China". Do you think this was due to deeper, mature civilizational links (like what exists between the Indian and Chinese people)? Or do you think this was an opportunistic alliance to screw India?

3. Pakistan today continues to be the snake-pit from which Uighur terrorists are trained and sent into Xinjiang. This is the two-faced "friend" that Pakistan is. They have screwed America, and they will screw China also. They are like a mafia - when you start doing business with them, you get sucked down a drainpipe of blackmail and double-crossing.

4. Pakistan committed genocide of 3 million Bangladeshis in 1971, and their soldiers committed systematic rape of over 200,000 of their women. Is this your definition of "nice people"? Today they continue to murder Baluchis in the state of Baluchistan that they control, especially their educated intellectuals. Are these the kind of "friends" China keeps? You can judge a person or a nation by the kind of friends they keep.

5. Moreover, if you read Pakistani history textbooks or get to know their culture, you will find how racist they are, including towards mongoloid races like the Chinese. Whereas we Indians are not, and we have plenty of mongoloid features among our own population.

Even though all this and much more is public knowledge, why are you so naive about it? The reason for this lack of mature Chinese awareness is because the PRC pseudo-state and its disinformation culture is NOT "China" in her full form. It is a power-hungry demon that is using a shadow of Chinese identity. Only such a psychopathic entity can be so narcissistic as to gush sentimental over the earthquake help sent by a bunch of rascals such as Pakistan, whose common people are deprived but whose elites have the most luxurious lives.

Please think about this, and how the CPC-ruled PRC looks to us Indians. We Indians can't wait for the true China to stand up. That true China is our old civilizational mate - not the PRC impostor. We await reform in China, not just political reforms, but another non-violent cultural revolution when the Chinese people fully realize their spiritual heritage and our deep kinship based on that. Please translate this and other viewpoints here to Chinese readers on other fora.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 11 Nov 2011 20:46

SSridhar wrote:
ltaakat wrote:According to my knowledge, the biggest help that we received from Pakistani was in 2008, when the great earth quake occurred in Sichuan Province. Pakistani sent their strategic reserved commodities, pharmaceutical products and medicines to us, which they were supposed to keep for defence use. It moved all the Chinese at that time. There is an old saying in China,
“Little help brings much return.” Chinese people always remember who helped them in the past, and will reward them even more in the future. There are some else support from Pakistani, like economic cooperation etc. I cannot translate them all into English, but we will never forget.

Oh, sure. I am, however, surprised that you are able to recall only this 'little' help and that too only very recently, that Pakistan rendered to you though it was rendered at a critical time. I am sure that the deeper-than-the-deepest-ocean, sweeter-than-the-sweetest-honey, and taller-than-the-tallest-mountain all-weather friendship between you two neighbours goes many decades prior to the 2008 earthquake. If I recall correctly, in 1962 Pakistan decided suddenly to become very friendly with PRC, even while it was part of the fierce anti-communist military pacts with the hegemonic West. The friendship blossomed then between the two of you and has never looked back. Can you throw some light on the help that Pakistan provided to you, during the period between 1962 and the 2008 earthquake, which as a Chinese, you may always remember ?


Maybe I should not talk about Pakistan here, I know that both China and Pakistan are not welomed here. I am already regreted to mention the word "Pakistan". Why can't we just calm down and discuss something apart from political issues? BTW, the word “little” you mentioned is just what the old saying said, which is a kind of analogy in Chinese, it is not a specific quantifier, hard to explain in English, sorry.I don't want to stick on this question.

Me myself can not represent my country, the questions you asked to me, and the answers you get from me, mean nothing.
Other Chinese people still have their own point of views. You can hardly change them, just like we can hardly change yours.
Last edited by member_20187 on 12 Nov 2011 00:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby shankara » 11 Nov 2011 20:57

You are welcome, Itakaat.

It will be easier for the "political" Chinese to understand India if they went back to the roots of Dharma that both our civilizations share. There are only two civilizations that have lasted since 4004 BC and before - only India and China.

But there are some things (very few things actually) about the recent history of India towards China that many Chinese seem to be pissed off about. But if they ask themselves, "What would Buddha have done?" they will understand India better, and agree with the history. Be it "Dalai Lama" or "1962" or others.

Pakis represent the worst of humanity. It doesn't matter how tightly you hug them or feed them, they will sting you. They are like the scorpion riding on the frog. It is their nature to spew venom. By befriending them solely to offend India and score some points, China isn't living up to its ancient wisdom. But the wisdom will dawn again only after Chinese intellectuals overcome the commies.

From your original post though, it seems there is hope for the near future.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20021 » 11 Nov 2011 23:20

@ltaakat:
你是在把这些帖子翻译到国内的网站上去吗?赞扬一下,很有意义,这会让国人看清这些人的实质,我认为真是有战争的危险,国人得注意了。

Translation:
Are you transplanting/translating the posters here to Chinese websites? It is highly commendable for your efforts, to alarm people what is coming vis a vis China and India.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 12 Nov 2011 00:30

Jimi wrote:@ltaakat:
你是在把这些帖子翻译到国内的网站上去吗?赞扬一下,很有意义,这会让国人看清这些人的实质,我认为真是有战争的危险,国人得注意了。

Translation:
Are you transplanting/translating the posters here to Chinese websites? It is highly commendable for your efforts, to alarm people what is coming vis a vis China and India.



I was said so in my first post, this is what "building a bridge" means. People from both countries have the right to know each other's views and attitudes, language should never be the obstacle. As a translator, I think I have the capability and responsibility to do such a job.
谢谢
Cheers, man.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby Agnimitra » 12 Nov 2011 00:45

ltaakat wrote:I was said so in my first post, this is what "building a bridge" means. People from both countries have the right to know each other's views and attitudes, language should never be the obstacle. As a translator, I think I have the capability and responsibility to do such a job.

Bravo, this is much appreciated.

When you have time I would also like to hear how you compare life in the UK to life back home in China - in all different ways.

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Re: India-China News and Discussion

Postby member_20187 » 12 Nov 2011 01:15

Carl wrote:
ltaakat wrote:I was said so in my first post, this is what "building a bridge" means. People from both countries have the right to know each other's views and attitudes, language should never be the obstacle. As a translator, I think I have the capability and responsibility to do such a job.

Bravo, this is much appreciated.

When you have time I would also like to hear how you compare life in the UK to life back home in China - in all different ways.


Glad to do so, mate.
BTW, I noted your post right now, just check the poster under yours which was for SSridhar, it is also for you.
Anyway, I will translate them to Chinese readers.


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