Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 2011

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Brad Goodman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2379
Joined: 01 Apr 2010 17:00

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Brad Goodman » 11 Dec 2011 22:55

Naked Veena, burning Raja

Unfortunately for most of us in Pakistan, our ideals of heroes have changed drastically. When a country of more than 180 million people is moved more by a naked Veena, than a burning Raja Khan outside the parliament, you know something is seriously wrong somewhere.


The fact that a nude Veena has managed to move a nation sickens me. The attention being giving to Veena, was denied to Raja Khan, a man who stood for real change. A man who burnt himself outside the parliament because he could no longer afford to feed his children, a man who died in vain. It took a single man burning himself alive in Tunisia to topple a government and bring a tsunami of change in the region. For us, however, a naked Veena is more important, because she is ‘in her own way challenging the limits of the dominant religio-cultural discourse in Pakistan, which seeks to conflate superfluous notions of honour with the female self.’

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby harbans » 11 Dec 2011 23:06

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistani military will shoot down any US drone that intrudes the country's airspace under a new defence policy in which troops have been given greater liberty to respond to incursions by Nato and allied forces in Afghanistan, according to a media report.

"Any object entering into our airspace, including US drones, will be treated as hostile and be shot down," a senior unnamed Pakistani military official was quoted as saying by NBC News.


Gutterstan will Knock down Drones

Point is Can they? And what happens on the streets next Dronacharya raid?

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Pranav » 11 Dec 2011 23:23

shiv wrote:But folks - it is the Pakistaniyat in us that makes us Indians refer to our politicians and government as "ruling casses". There is no separate ruling class in India. There definitely is, in Pakistan. But yet we act like shitistanis when we refer to our elected folks as "ruling class".


OT, but we do have our own ruling elites, a significant chunk of whom are descended from those who collaborated with the British in colonial times.


lakshmikanth
BRFite
Posts: 723
Joined: 27 Oct 2008 10:07
Location: Bee for Baakistan

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby lakshmikanth » 12 Dec 2011 01:15

Pranav wrote:
shiv wrote:But folks - it is the Pakistaniyat in us that makes us Indians refer to our politicians and government as "ruling casses". There is no separate ruling class in India. There definitely is, in Pakistan. But yet we act like shitistanis when we refer to our elected folks as "ruling class".


OT, but we do have our own ruling elites, a significant chunk of whom are descended from those who collaborated with the British in colonial times.


Adding a bit of piskology here. I have been reading this book called the Wretched of the earth by Frantz Fanon who was an Algerian freedom fighter and a psychologist.

His theory says that any 'colonizer' would try to 'civilize' the colonized by installing a favored set of people who further the colonizers agenda (the Indian form being Maculay's Children).

Using these favored set of people, the colonizer also discredits the culture of the colonized, in any form, even the good parts of the culture. They also install new symbols and languages that replace existing concepts in the host culture. In doing that they stem out any innovations of the host culture, there by making the host culture rot, and become just an empty shell of what once was. This has happened in Latin America, Africa and to a large extent India (due to Mughals and Brits).

The piskology of the favored natives (aka elites) is very interesting. They hate the host culture more than the colonizers themselves. But since the rituals of the host culture are still carried on by the elites, they have cognitive dissonance and confusion. They dont know why they are following the rituals, but they do it. This pushes the elites to two extremes, they either become anti-any culture (communists/socialists) or they reject the host culture entirely and completely embrace what they think the colonizers culture is ( for ex: Mughal elites, later Muslim elites). The unifying theme between the two being that the root of rejection of the host culture is the result of deep self hatred. The latter would however be so brainwashed that they would forget what their host culture is, and are likely to be more confused that the former. Pakis are a good example of this


The war for Porkistan was a war between the self hating communists vs the Muslim culture embracers (ek-ball et al).

johneeG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3473
Joined: 01 Jun 2009 12:47

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby johneeG » 12 Dec 2011 01:19

^^Interesting analysis.

Commies supported the creation of Pakistan though...

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby RamaY » 12 Dec 2011 01:21

Brad Goodman wrote:[url=http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2011/12/naked-veena-burning-raja/]Naked Veena, burning Raja

The fact that a nude Veena has managed to move a nation sickens me. The attention being giving to Veena, was denied to Raja Khan, a man who stood for real change. A man who burnt himself outside the parliament because he could no longer afford to feed his children, a man who died in vain. It took a single man burning himself alive in Tunisia to topple a government and bring a tsunami of change in the region. For us, however, a naked Veena is more important, because she is ‘in her own way challenging the limits of the dominant religio-cultural discourse in Pakistan, which seeks to conflate superfluous notions of honour with the female self.’
[/quote]
This is due to Media sensationalism. The media failed its social responsibility.

harbans
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4883
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 05:01
Location: Dehradun

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby harbans » 12 Dec 2011 01:39

Nice analysis on Colonizers. Seems pretty correct to a large extent. India's tryst with Socialism/ communism neatly fits into that syndrome. Reckon same applies with Maoist China too.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby RamaY » 12 Dec 2011 01:53

Lakshmikanth ji,

That is the foundation of Org Theory w.r.t Org culture. There is lot of literature and models/case studies on this subject. Study how corporations replace the old Corp culture when they acquire/merge others. There is a prescribed set of strategies to undo that - that is decolonization. This is similar to undoing the colonial culture.

An example: http://www2.fcsh.unl.pt/docentes/luisro ... ulture.doc

The question is how to do that without occupying it?

In earlier times the colonized were occupied first and then deracinated. With the export of so-called "American/western values" anglo-Saxon world is trying to continue this without occupying a given nation state. They use multi-lateral bodies and award/recognition bodies (such as Nobel prize, Pulitzer prize etc) in this strategy.

However this alone is not able to colonize a nation state like earlier times without controlling the state machinery like we saw in various AS wars.

The new trend seems to be the so-called color revolutions. Thru this strategy the AS world is trying to colonize a given nation-state using carefully selected elite groups. The foreign education and MNC/FDI is the new tool.

Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Satya_anveshi » 12 Dec 2011 02:02

Amidst the reports of US and Pak relations at unprecedented "low", I was trying to see the recent events from that perspective and see if it really made any sense.

- US initiated Memogate crisis putting civvies in precarious situation; removal is operational but strategically US has spoken; This is obvious folks..no ifs and buts here.
- US provoked Pakarmy with Salale post attack
- Pak army responded with "enough is enough" and indications are that it is walking the talk
- Pak army denying drone attacks from within and without. Denying Shamsi base will eliminate attacks from within and shooting down drones in paki air space will eliminate attacks from outside bases; Basically this is clearest communication to Taliban of all manner saying drones attacks are now over. They had a weaking effect and US is now conceding that they are done with.
- pak stopping NATO supply routes foreclose US option to stay put from the pre-announced exit date. If US decides to stay put they need to do it with increased costs as well as risk; All this in the election year and messy economic situation at home in US.
- By not attending Bonn conf pakistan is retaining options with Taliban (status quo which is uncertainty is retained; major taliban leaders are still under house arrest and afghans still fearing..taliban are coming)
- latest attack at Mazar-E-Sharif is also a clearest indication to all manner of Taliban to unite; This is setting the clock back to 1997 when 3000 Taliban were presumed killed as they tried to take over Mazar.

Do you think we have enough to conclude US and Pak are playing in tango or their relations all time "low"?

Afghans, Karzai, Indians and all those who are thinking afghanistan is getting out of 7th century are phucked unless some major major fundamental event happens. This must be against the wishes of US as they seem to have signed off on this.

PS: All WAR is deception – Sun Tzu

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby RajeshA » 12 Dec 2011 02:42

Dishing out propaganda by the colonizers, cultural imperialists, elites, world domination advocates, etc. is becoming difficult also to a large extent. We see how the Libyan Regime Change was pushed through, but the propaganda done by the Brits, French and Americans was so transparent, they could have saved themselves the trouble. And here we speak about past masters in the business of propaganda.

And then we have the Chinese and their propaganda! That is like going back to the 3rd class of school! It is like they have done no progress at all in the last 60 years or so! The same 2 dimensional flat paroles from ages ago! And still some people buy that crap!

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54516
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby ramana » 12 Dec 2011 03:01

johneeG wrote:^^Interesting analysis.

Commies supported the creation of Pakistan though...



There are exceptions to all generalizations. So finding an odd outliers doesn't discredit the regression fit.

Commies are an updated version of Islam ie without the religious obeisance to Allah. Only to the book and to the new prophet Marx.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21161
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Prem » 12 Dec 2011 03:49

RajeshA wrote:Jhujar ji,

aapne Prem se nata kyon torh diya! :((


For a very good cause , he was a bad guy. :wink:

Sudip
BRFite
Posts: 378
Joined: 28 Oct 2008 05:42
Location: Paikhana

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Sudip » 12 Dec 2011 04:18

Boundaries Of Blood -- Audio narration

A pakistani born in 1971 goes to bangladesh to explore the history of 71 war. Gets bitchslapped royally by a bangladeshi lady who suffered in 1971, while his own young brainwashed countrymen keep denying it. Definitely recommend listening to it. If possible someone could save the audio file in some repository. There is a second part that will be uploaded soon.

Forty years ago, Shahzeb Jillani was born in Sindh Province, Pakistan.

At the same time, a new nation was being born - Bangladesh. Shahzeb was born in the middle of the night.There was a blackout. Bombs were falling. There was a war, and Pakistan was losing.

Forty years on, Shahzeb, now the BBC World Service South Asia Editor, returns to the region to find out how these traumatic events shaped contemporary Pakistan.

It will be a personal journey of discovery to challenge the contradictions in the Pakistani narrative he was taught in school.

There he learned little, if anything, of the injustices visited in the 1950s and 1960s on Eastern Pakistan by the Western half - with government spending and political power overwhelmingly biased towards the West.

The discrimination came to a head in the bid for Bangladeshi independence and then a brutal war, which Pakistan expected to win.

When India entered on the Bangladeshi side, Pakistan suffered the ultimate humiliation: surrender on 16 December 1971.

Through this series, Shahzeb will try to understand what really happened in 1971 and to chart how it still continues to affect contemporary Pakistan.

He will explore how the memory of defeat at the hands of India has shaped the thinking of the Pakistani military - that the country faces a continued existential threat from its much larger neighbour, whether in Bangladesh or in Afghanistan.

Did it create the determination that Pakistan must acquire the bomb? Did the vacillation of the Western powers instil an essential distrust towards the outside world, and a belief that Pakistan must depend on itself?

And Shahzeb will explore the hidden legacy of violence, coming face to face with Bangladeshis who witnessed the widespread rape, torture, killings by Pakistani forces and to understand the resentment most Bangladeshis still feel towards Pakistan.

Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Satya_anveshi » 12 Dec 2011 04:21

Bumpy progress on Pakistan: Gen Ashok Kumar Mehta

Pakistan will finally give India MFN status and endorse liberalisation of economic ties including shifting to a negative list in trade between the two countries in a time-bound manner. This will boost regional cooperation and implementation of Safta. On its part, India will relax its visa regime for businessmen and will remove many non-tariff barriers on imports from Pakistan. These proposals were endorsed by commerce secretaries recently.

While keeping fingers crossed, there is light at the end of the tunnel, economics providing that light. Other CBMs articulated at Dubai related to reducing the trust deficit. The most daring was the suggestion of a retired general and former minister in the Musharraf government to trilateralise last month's India-Afghanistan Strategic Partnership Agreement signed two days before the conference.

This took everyone by surprise - that Pakistan, which has refused to dialogue on Afghanistan as it would legitimise India's role there, would wish to be party to a trilateral agreement as part of Saarc. The author of the trilateral idea is, surprisingly, Gen Kayani.It is a straw designed to help swallow a bitter pill. Eliminating short-range nuclear ballistic missiles - Pakistan's Hatf (1 to 3) and India's Prithvi (1 and 2) - and initiating strategic and military dialogue including on Cold Start doctrine was mooted.

anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8284
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby anupmisra » 12 Dec 2011 06:18



Points to ponder:

Knowing that paki generals are chronic liars and corrupt; knowing that everyone in pokistan is out to make a quick buck (starting from a lowly policeman to the president) from its inception; and knowing that it is easy to hide bribes in that beknighted land, here's a possible alternate scenario:

1. What is the likelihood that this Khawaja guy is lying (he is ISI)?
2. What is the likelihood that being ISI, Khawaja did not know of photochor's nuclear mart, and wanted more than the offered amount?
2. What is the likelihood that the original bribe money amounted to a million bucks; he decided to keep half of it and declare the rest as a sign of his honesty?
3. What is the likelihood that NoKo general / diplomat protested and wanted the remainder returned also, and the paki MI told him to buzz off with just half a mil or be outed?
4. What is the likelihood that the paki MI then asked to split the first half with Khawaja?
5. One question to ask is why did Khawaja keep this to himself for so long (event happended in 1995), only to vomit out this story now?

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3282
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Kakkaji » 12 Dec 2011 06:43

Pranav wrote:
shiv wrote:But folks - it is the Pakistaniyat in us that makes us Indians refer to our politicians and government as "ruling casses". There is no separate ruling class in India. There definitely is, in Pakistan. But yet we act like shitistanis when we refer to our elected folks as "ruling class".


OT, but we do have our own ruling elites, a significant chunk of whom are descended from those who collaborated with the British in colonial times.


I beg to differ. Apart from a few - most of India's Who's Who in politics, business, bureaucrecy, military today are not descended from the 'ruling elites' at the time of independence. The likes of Mayawati, Mulayam Singh Yadav, Laloo Yadav, Nitish Kumar, Narendra Modi, Sharad pawar, Jayalalita, Ambani, Narayan Murthy etc. are not from the 'elite' families from the British times. We may not agree with them on issues, but they have all worked their way up from humble backgrounds.

JM2c

lakshmikanth
BRFite
Posts: 723
Joined: 27 Oct 2008 10:07
Location: Bee for Baakistan

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby lakshmikanth » 12 Dec 2011 06:53

ramana wrote:
johneeG wrote:^^Interesting analysis.

Commies supported the creation of Pakistan though...



There are exceptions to all generalizations. So finding an odd outliers doesn't discredit the regression fit.

Commies are an updated version of Islam ie without the religious obeisance to Allah. Only to the book and to the new prophet Marx.



I guess I meant the Nehruvian/Fabian socialists who won the war with the Hindu elites towards the end of the struggle for freedom from the briturds.

I am going to take this opportunity to ramble a little bit more. Disclaimer that all this is original research, so I may well be wrong. Also this maybe OT and may look like ==, I hope I am forgiven for that :).


There is a surprising lack of Hindu elites anywhere in India. By Hindu Elite, I mean someone who is culturally a Hindu and is a proponent of Hindu beliefs, people like Bal Gangadhar Tilak. I think the main cause of the lack of genuine culturally Hindu elites is the fact that both the Mughal pigs and the briturds actively suppressed them, colluding with the more 'liberal' elites to work against any proponent of the host culture.

Host culture destruction started with the invading Muslim barbarians, who saw idol worship as evil. They shut down the dynamo of any culture, the universities, and as a result there is a seemingly abrupt stop in cultural works (like Vedic mathematics) since the 1100.

The last things to truly blossom from the culture (albeit being a struggle against it) were Buddhism and Sikhism

A culture is destroyed when its knowledge centers are destroyed. It's intellectuals discredited and its followers shamed. This was done by all the barbarians that invaded India. Cultural shaming is central to any colonizer.

It is in the greatest interest of the colonizer to shame the native culture, and it serves two purposes. It creates an artificial superiority of the colonizer in the minds of both the colonizer and the natives. It also makes the natives easier to control, because they are fundamentally ashamed of themselves and as a result have a serious lack of self esteem. This lack of self esteem results in self hatred and destroys the will to stand up for anything. This is the reason that the Brits found it very easy to acquire (rather than conquer) India. The natives were already piskologically conditioned for being conquered by one power or the other.

The colonizer benefits from the native allies, the allies are graded by their loyalty. The more loyal a native is, the more they reject the host culture and the more self hatred and shame they have for being a native. The more loyal get rewarded more, and they become the elites.

This shame distributed to the larger mass in various forms. Education, books, organizations, reforms, news media etc. You can see this shame in present day in the form of denial in some folks when they look at a very successful product which claims to be Made in India and refuse to believe it. "It must be TFTA, how can such a thing be Made in India"

Fanon argues for violence and says that unless these elites and their school of thought is eliminated decolonialization is impossible. The one country that I can recall that successfully did this is the USA, and you can see the results, the UK is now just a poodle compared to its former colony.

This self-shame is the uniting concept for the TFTA porkis and the "ruling classes" of India. The TFTA porkis are the elites of the Mughal barbarians. Who later found it equally easy to collude with the Briturds (whiskey swiling, swine eating jernails and all that). The Brits also cultivated their own set of elites and then played one against the other. It is from this set of self-hating elites that the leaders of the freedom movement were born.

Both fought for status-quo. The non muslim elites wanted to keep democracy (minus the British) so that they can retain power. The muslim elites wanted to return to the Mughal era, where they fit in better. And since they did not know how they would be treated in a united India by the non-muslim elites, they were not willing to be united with the larger India. The rest is history which resulted in Pakhanistan.

The push towards self "purification" and more islam as a solution is the result of self-hate and self-shame. How can one explain the defeat in a war against Kufr? The rational answer would be to look at it objectively and try to figure out what happened. Objectivity cannot be met by someone who has deep self-shame. They know only one answer to every question :- bury yourself deeper in the invaders culture, which in this case is Islam. In this light the islamization of porkistan was a logical outcome of being weak and being ashamed of who one really is.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 12 Dec 2011 07:10

lakshmikanth wrote:The piskology of the favored natives (aka elites) is very interesting. They hate the host culture more than the colonizers themselves. But since the rituals of the host culture are still carried on by the elites, they have cognitive dissonance and confusion. They dont know why they are following the rituals, but they do it. This pushes the elites to two extremes, they either become anti-any culture (communists/socialists) or they reject the host culture entirely and completely embrace what they think the colonizers culture is ( for ex: Mughal elites, later Muslim elites). The unifying theme between the two being that the root of rejection of the host culture is the result of deep self hatred. The latter would however be so brainwashed that they would forget what their host culture is, and are likely to be more confused that the former. Pakis are a good example of this


Fits in very well with what ramana (via his son, I think) wrote long ago about linguistic fractal recursivity. The language of the favored elite becomes the language of the colonizer and the favored elite refer to the "natives' as the colonizer refers to them.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 12 Dec 2011 07:17

Pranav wrote:
shiv wrote:But folks - it is the Pakistaniyat in us that makes us Indians refer to our politicians and government as "ruling casses". There is no separate ruling class in India. There definitely is, in Pakistan. But yet we act like shitistanis when we refer to our elected folks as "ruling class".


OT, but we do have our own ruling elites, a significant chunk of whom are descended from those who collaborated with the British in colonial times.


Pranavji, with respect, this is a display of deep ignorance of the changes that have occurred in the Indian political landscape. Politics in India is no longer just about Soniaji and Rahulji. even if they are at the pinnacle. the elites are gone. The "middle castes" have taken over. There is no "ruilng alite" over huge parts of India unless you imagine that Rahulji and SoniaG actually mae a difference to rural Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Gujarat, Bengal or Bihar for that matter. Are you able to name the MLAs of these states and say how they all belong to a ruling elite? What elite How can you then agree with the Paki and do same-same == with Pakistan and say "Oh we also have ruling elite onlee" You are wrong.

When Pakis speak of ruling elite in India it is a euphemism for "Brahmins" and "High caste". In Pakistan they mean the "deep state". Two different things but not only is t a lie that you choose to swallow, Pakis also gain by having Indians like you agree with them. Congratulations.

Airavat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2326
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31
Location: dishum-bishum
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Airavat » 12 Dec 2011 07:42

Pakistan is under badmash generals

Pakistan military generals, who were solidly behind bin Laden, are punishing the democratic government of President Asif Ali Zardari and his favorite former ambassador to the United States, Husain Haqqani, for disagreeing with their military strategy in Afghanistan. This entails the defeat of the International Security Assistance Force as the insafmous Inter-Services Intellignce believes their proxy Taliban can outstay NATO. Had the military generals Kayani and Pasha had a single honorable bone in their bodies, they would have resigned to respect world opinion after the bin Laden raid instead of targeting the civilian government in the way they are doing and holding Pakistan's democracy hostage at gunpoint.

Advocates for the right to self-determination for Balochistan argue that Zardari remained glued to his seat -- he always called himself a Baloch before marrying slain premier Benazir Bhutto -- as the Pakistani soldiers killed more than 350 of the best sons of Balochistan in nearly four years of his rule. Before coming into power, General Kayani met Zardari and bluntly told him he could manage the affiars of three provinces but Balochistan will remain in the military's domain.

Time and again Islamabad sends feelers it wants peace in Balochistan, but the actions of its soldiers in Balochistan is called "Punjabi badmashi", or Punjab's generals atrocious bullying, because the majority of Pakistan military officers and soldiers belong to the most populous Punjab province.


"Punjabi badmashi" targets not only, Zardari and Haqqani but also American nationals. As Pakistan boycotted the Bonn conference, bin Laden's successor Ayman al-Zawahiri came out with a statement from Pakistan that al Qaeda was holding Warren Weinstein as hostage. Weinstein was kidnapped from his home in Lahore, capital of Punjab and this shows how deeply embedded al Qaeda is in Pakistan society.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby RamaY » 12 Dec 2011 07:44

Did anyone notice the irony between the 11/26 Mumbai attack and 11/26 NATO attack on Paki border post? Were Pakis trying to repeat 11/26 in Afghanistan?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 12 Dec 2011 08:06

Lakshmikanth, very interesting and thought provoking posts. What was done by British socioiogical intervention was to bring in a "caste" classification and say that Brhamins and Kshatriyas had rigidly ruled and needed to be opposed and disempowered. This was the ploy used to win allies among Muslims and support among a vast mass of non ruling people in India.

This mindset led to the framing of the Indian constitution to push for equality of all Indians, which Indians agreed with readily. It was NOT opposed even by the then ruling elite. Only those people who did not want equality - the Muslim league and the Jinnah gang opposed it and got Pakistan.

The same Indian mindset that sought to "right the wrongs" of forward caste over backward caste led to "reservation" and "more reservation" after VP Singh making it attractive and desirable for Indians to be "backward caste" or "other backward caste". India's polity now consists of a mix of people who are not dominated by the original designated "ruling elite" the Brahmins and Kshatriyas. It is now attractive and desirable for Indians to be from a backward caste background rather than from the former forward caste-ruling elite background. A constitutionally mandated "reverse caste system" has been set into motion in India.

Pakistan on the other hand continues to be ruled by a coterie of army, feudal elite and Ashraf mohajirs so they do have a ruling elite.

It is completely ignorant for Indians to talk like their grandfathers and imagine that the same old "ruling elite" exists now as it did earlier.

On a different note when will Indians develop the balls and self confidence to have an "Indian English" dictionary that does not underline words like Kshatriya and Brahmin and Jati in red indicating a misspelling?

Nandu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2195
Joined: 08 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Nandu » 12 Dec 2011 08:59


Isn't Kang the guy whose "wife" was shot in Islamabad during that time?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 12 Dec 2011 09:13

Nandu wrote:

Isn't Kang the guy whose "wife" was shot in Islamabad during that time?


Hmm - I vaguely recall that Xerox Khan had alleged that the army was bribed. It was discussed on here a couple of years ago. Need to find the relevant reports..

lakshmikanth
BRFite
Posts: 723
Joined: 27 Oct 2008 10:07
Location: Bee for Baakistan

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby lakshmikanth » 12 Dec 2011 09:24

^^^ shiv saar,

The == with pakhanistan ends with 1947, we paid for that separation in blood (and $$), as you point out in your ebook :). India went on a path of socialism after that, I believe it was a rejection of the idea of crony capitalism which represented the East India company and its conquest, and it was also a rejection of anything Hindu, which represented general "backwardness" and inequality (not very ironically the growth rate at this period is called Hindu Rate of growth :) subtly meaning Hindu == backward).

A unique nature of Indian independence is that it did not remove the elites installed by the brits or the Mughals. The natural question to ask is, who would these elites be loyal to? They had no one higher up to kiss up to. This is a confusing situation for a colonized mind. From what I read about Jinnah, he was a confused man towards the end of his time. After his death, Muslim league was left directionless, prone to hijack and revolt. In the end, Porkis tried to rationalize the two nation theory. They tried to find meaning when there wasn't one. Then they found that the root of meaninglessness was lack of Islam. Thus porkistan has redefined itself as trying to establish a caliphate that will rule sauth asia like the good ol Mughal barbarian days, and that needs conquering of the Kufr. That is the will of Allah and Inshallah we will have the green flag on top of the red fort. That is what porkis stand for and have always stood for.

After Independence Nehru was also a very confused man, with his own confused ideas about the world. Gurcharan Das pointed out that in his lecture on Policy at Harvard, Henry Kissinger said dreamers should never be leaders and the example he gave was of Nehru. He had a very naive view of the world, and I assume it was because he only dealt with the Briturd masters. In his naive view, rejecting crony capitalism and backward Hinduism would cure India of all its ills. This has been the path that the elites of India have taken. They are rudderless, but they "know" Hinduism is evil. They were shamed into believing it, they still try to shame others in believing it as well, look at any news channel for example. Just as the Islamic crazies of Porkistan have taken into more Islam as a solution. Our elites have decided that more secularism (i.e. Hindu hatred) is our answer to being ashamed. They think that if we completely eliminate Hinduism from our culture, we will be equal to those who shame us (i.e. the briturds), thereby remedying the internal shame! Pseudo secularism is nothing but self-shame and self-hatred polished into a stand against anything Indic.

I see the non-aligned movement proof that India rejected everything, capitalism, communism or any other "ism" that could pull wool over the native eyes. However, it never stood *for* anything. To this day it has been rudderless. Not standing for anything. It will only change when self-shame, self-hatred goes away and is replaced by self-respect. The day that happens, we are truly a free people. Until then we will see the Mainos, the Rauls, and the Ghandys hijack and rape India.

The newer generation in India finds it easier to reject self-shame, I guess its partly because after 1980s there were better times that were had by many people who were not directly interacting with the invaders. This fact, and the political awareness of the lower strata which was also isolated from self-shame is the reason why India's trajectory will be different than Pakhanistan. In a few more generations, we will truly have little self-shame.

While true freedom in India is a definite possibility without much violence, Porkistan is truly screwed. Its economy is in deep Pakistan, which means the elites will be in power for a long time. Also Islam as an answer to everything means it will return to barbarian and violent 7th century times. Unless there is violent revolution discrediting Islam and shaming the people for being islamists and believers in Islam, there is no way Porkistan would ever be normal. Either that or get all the elites in one city and have a mushroom cloud ceremony.

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Pranav » 12 Dec 2011 09:40

shiv wrote:Pranavji, with respect, this is a display of deep ignorance of the changes that have occurred in the Indian political landscape. Politics in India is no longer just about Soniaji and Rahulji. even if they are at the pinnacle. the elites are gone.


The crux of the matter is who controls the pinnacle of power, and the voting machines.

lakshmikanth
BRFite
Posts: 723
Joined: 27 Oct 2008 10:07
Location: Bee for Baakistan

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby lakshmikanth » 12 Dec 2011 09:42

RamaY wrote:Lakshmikanth ji,

....
The question is how to do that without occupying it?
.....
However this alone is not able to colonize a nation state like earlier times without controlling the state machinery like we saw in various AS wars.

The new trend seems to be the so-called color revolutions. Thru this strategy the AS world is trying to colonize a given nation-state using carefully selected elite groups. The foreign education and MNC/FDI is the new tool.


RamaY ji,
<OT>
The current tools are Color revolutions, media to highlight the negatives among the natives, stuff like Slumdog Millionaire etc. However they are very symmetric and can be reversed. China is doing a good job of reversing it. So is media like Al-Jazeera. Wikileaks also did a good job of reversing it.

As I mentioned before, all it takes for people to be conquered culturally is being ashamed of who they are. For ex: Many Americans, if not most of them, are ashamed of the fact that they went into Iraq. Now if we fund their media to repeat this message subliminally over and over and over again, use their cultural mass media to convert this message into a message that power projection is a shameful thing. If it catches on, in a few generations people will be so afraid to assert themselves as a nation that we might be able to ask them get out of Diego Garcia :) .

I can see American self shame in a lot of forums already :), if only our babus could exploit this vulnerability :)
Last edited by lakshmikanth on 12 Dec 2011 09:48, edited 1 time in total.

Pranav
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5280
Joined: 06 Apr 2009 13:23

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Pranav » 12 Dec 2011 09:47

lakshmikanth wrote:There is a surprising lack of Hindu elites anywhere in India. By Hindu Elite, I mean someone who is culturally a Hindu and is a proponent of Hindu beliefs, people like Bal Gangadhar Tilak.


lakshmikanth wrote:A unique nature of Indian independence is that it did not remove the elites installed by the brits or the Mughals. The natural question to ask is, who would these elites be loyal to? They had no one higher up to kiss up to. This is a confusing situation for a colonized mind. ...

[Nehru] had a very naive view of the world, and I assume it was because he only dealt with the Briturd masters. In his naive view, rejecting crony capitalism and backward Hinduism would cure India of all its ills. This has been the path that the elites of India have taken. They are rudderless, but they "know" Hinduism is evil. They are rudderless, but they "know" Hinduism is evil. They were shamed into believing it, they still try to shame others in believing it as well, look at any news channel for example.


Excellent series of posts, Lakshmikanth ji.

vina
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6046
Joined: 11 May 2005 06:56
Location: Doing Nijikaran, Udharikaran and Baazarikaran to Commies and Assorted Leftists

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby vina » 12 Dec 2011 10:12

Backdoor Diplomacy: PTI Comfortable Working with the US

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: . Back door indeed! A Freudian slip if there ever was one. Sure, US will be very comfortable with your back doors.

Raja Bose
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19478
Joined: 18 Oct 2005 01:38

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Raja Bose » 12 Dec 2011 10:38

^^There's no door, its just a hole in the back of Pakistan.

Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Satya_anveshi » 12 Dec 2011 10:44

of course there was an earlier report few weeks ago ago (not posted because of the site it comes from):

defence.pukistan/forums/u-s-foreign-affairs/142439-imran-not-against-us-says-munter-us-ready-help-probe-into-memo-issue.html
{those interested in clicking the link may add www and replace pukistan with pk}

Imran not against US, says Munter US ready to help probe into memo issue


Speaking on Geo News’ Capital Talk hosted by Hamid Mir, the US ambassador said the memo issue was Pakistan’s internal matter and must be resolved inside Pakistan. He said the US was waiting to see what had happened following an inquiry conducted by the Pakistani authorities into Ambassador Husain Haqqani’s alleged involvement in the memogate.

“We need to find out from this inquiry what this memo is and what it really meant. I can only say that I had not seen the memo until it was published,” Munter said. Munter also denied the Sunday Times report that he had met PTI chief Imran Khan in the presence of ISI chief Ahmed Shjua Pasha. “I have met Imran Khan and I have met the ISI chief, but both these meetings were held separately,” Munter said.

He denied the impression that Imran Khan was anti-American. “He (Imran Khan) supports democracy. He wants a transparent system and economic development. Now the question is if he has some workable formula of improving the country’s condition, then we are with him.”

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21161
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Prem » 12 Dec 2011 11:03

Raja Bose wrote:^^There's no door, its just a hole in the back of Pakistan.

The hole is the size of a door, so natural for people to get confused. Here is Dr Gillani .
President needs 2-week rest in Dubai: Pee AM
ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani on Sunday said President Asif Ali Zardari was recovering fast in a Dubai hospital, but would need two weeks' rest before returning home, Geo News reported.In an interview to BBC, the Prime Minister brushed aside rumours President Asif Ali Zardari had suffered a stroke and the military was trying to dislodge him. President Zardari is recovering fast in a Dubai hospital, but would need two weeks' rest before returning home, he added.To a question on suspension of Nato supply line, the Prime Minister said Nato closure of supply line may continue for several weeks and did not rule out denying use of Pakistan's airspace by the US.He said although Pakistan and US had been working together, there was a 'credibility gap' between the two. "I think we have to improve our relationship so that... we should have more confidence in each other," the Prime Minister said.ISLAMABAD: PM Gilani said that Mohmand attack was an insult of Pakistan’s sacrifices in war on terror.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21161
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Prem » 12 Dec 2011 11:07

Pre-sident to submit reply in meomoo case
http://www.dawn.com/2011/12/12/presiden ... -case.html
( Gillani janni, Mai Nahi pakistan ayyo, Memogate Jernail peeche parre hai, Dubai se utth kar na jayyeo)

ISLAMABAD: Although the presidency and the Prime Minister`s House claim that the condition of President Asif Ali Zradari, currently under treatment in Dubai, is improving with every passing day, he will not be able to return to the country by Dec 19 — when the first hearing of the memo case is scheduled in the Supreme Court. However, the presidency will submit the president`s reply before that day as ordered by the apex court even if he remains hospitalised for cardiac treatment.“The president will submit his reply before the court even if he does not return from Dubai,” spokesman Farhatullah Babar said.However, he added, a “final decision” regarding the return of the president would be taken in accordance with the Jernail /doctors` advice.Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, in an interview with BBC, had also confirmed that President Zardari would not be in the country when the hearing would be held.He would need two weeks` rest before returning home, Mr Gilani added. He also squashed rumours that the president had suffered a stroke and that the army was trying to oust him.


parsuram
BRFite
Posts: 366
Joined: 31 May 2002 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby parsuram » 12 Dec 2011 11:38

(acharya, Rudradev, shiv)Ji: You have mail.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12133
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Dec 2011 11:42

harbans wrote:
ISLAMABAD: The Pakistani military will shoot down any US drone that intrudes the country's airspace under a new defence policy in which troops have been given greater liberty to respond to incursions by Nato and allied forces in Afghanistan, according to a media report.

"Any object entering into our airspace, including US drones, will be treated as hostile and be shot down," a senior unnamed Pakistani military official was quoted as saying by NBC News.


Gutterstan will Knock down Drones

Point is Can they? And what happens on the streets next Dronacharya raid?


I think they must have some agreement with the USA informally on this. Cause if anther Drone strike happens it means the GHQ Khakis will be forced to declare war of USA, a situation nobody wants. I don't believe that USA will puncture GHQ pride publically now by conducting anther drone strike for the next 2 months

Mahendra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4411
Joined: 11 Aug 2007 17:20
Location: Chronicling Bakistan's Tryst with Dysentery

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Mahendra » 12 Dec 2011 13:05


I..guess..he..was..minding..his..own..business

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10046
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby sum » 12 Dec 2011 14:24

US set fire to equipment before leaving Pak airbase

S personnel set fire to all their redundant equipment before vacating Pakistan's Shamsi airbase that had been used to launch drone attacks, an official said.

The US completed evacuation of the airbase Sunday and Frontier Corps personnel promptly took over.

A security official told the daily Dawn that US forces had left virtually nothing there and they set all their redundant and useless equipment on fire before leaving.

Not sure if all this is a dog and pony show to fool the aam Abdul or is the real deal happening

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby RajeshA » 12 Dec 2011 14:34

lakshmikanth ji,

one of the best self-shame systems they ever put in place was the one in Germany! In fact it was a joint venture between the Anglo-Americans and the Soviets at the height of Cold-War. Both in East and West, the children were constantly forced to see, read, relive the "horrors of War".

When a German came out of the school system, except for those who bunked those classes, all others had developed a great shame for the acts of the Nazi Germany. It was during the 2006 FIFA World Cup that Germans first really brought out their flags and started unfurling them openly. Showing overt love for the flag was considered 'extremism'.

Once when I was in Berlin, I went with a German friend to visit the German Chancellory building on a 'Day of Open Doors' and there was a Bundeswehr (German military) band playing in the courtyard. On seeing them she started cursing them and I was taken aback at the viciousness of her hate for the German military.

Of course Germans should be made aware of their militant past and their atrocities against the Jews and the Gypsies, but the self-shame system put into place went much further, and a mind-set was instituted where the Germans were supposed to keep quiet, never to protest what the West did as an obedient partner, and were supposed to keep on financing the wars and profligacy of the Anglo-Americans and others.

Something similar was attempted on the Japanese where there was a system of self-shame already in place from earlier times if a Japanese subject could not fulfill his duty to the master or if he caused dishonor. This system was expanded to include shame for losing the war and to own up the shame of the Emperor for his defeat to the US. Even Russia holds on to the Kurils to remind the Japanese of their shame and defeat. The Chinese want to institutionalize this shame even further by banning any visits by the Japanese politicians to Yasukuni Shrine. They never forget to stress how unethical the Japanese behaved in places like Nanking, etc. Neither are the Koreans willing to let go of the case of comfort women. The Japanese can be put under pressure, because there is already the concept of shame in their culture, and everybody taps into it.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Hari Nair, ravikr, ryogi, Sagrawal, sum, V_Raman, vera_k and 47 guests