Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 2011

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby RamaY » 13 Dec 2011 02:01

RajeshA ji,

Are ju saying we test Pinaka regiments as they get handed over to IA?

I would love any option that kills as many paki males as possible.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby A_Gupta » 13 Dec 2011 02:02

What really happened inside the madrassa
http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/8983/ ... -madrassa/

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby RamaY » 13 Dec 2011 02:07

devesh wrote:lot of expressions of angst and sorrow about the Afghan bombing. simple question. Why?

You reap what you sow. while I was looking at that picture, I felt sorry for the human loss, but then I was reminded of the tragedies inflicted by this very population for the last few centuries, in the name of their god and religion. and I find myself wondering why the he** are so many people of BRF falling over their heels to express their dismay and utmost and sincerest sorrow at this?

is it b/c somehow "Pakis" were responsible that makes us sympathize? they are all Pakis. in a green-on-green fight, you and I are still Kafirs worthy of slaughter. when I looked at that picture, I was reminded of similar scenes of massacres that must have occurred to Hindus multiplied by a 1000 times. I feel no sympathy for them. they are reaping the product of their own centuries long karma.

AoA!!!


I was hoping someone would post this question 8)

I am sad and posted that very specific post because all those shown in that pic are girls and woman, the legitimate property of rest of the world. The Karma phala, if there is any, for a kendostix jihadi is being part of a Hindu harem.

On the other hand all the males died in such attacks deserve their Karma.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby RajeshA » 13 Dec 2011 02:15

RamaY wrote:RajeshA ji,

Are ju saying we test Pinaka regiments as they get handed over to IA?

I would love any option that kills as many paki males as possible.

The important thing is to call it cross-border firing, and no missiles should enter the picture, because then it can escalate and go nuclear.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby A_Gupta » 13 Dec 2011 02:35

50 children rescued from madrassa dungeon
http://www.geo.tv/GeoDetail.aspx?ID=28494

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby lakshmikanth » 13 Dec 2011 02:39

RajeshAji, RamaYji,

I was thinking about this a little more. The crux of the little bit of == that remains in India and Porkistan is not just situational shame, its deep institutionalized existential shame.

If a ghazi walks out of his house without wearing his pajamas and exposes his mijjile to the world.. that is situational shame, and the Sharia might prescribe some form of remedying the situation after which he can redeem from the situation, maybe it prescribes cutting off exposed body parts as a solution to the shame. He cuts it off and he becomes happy, even if he does not have a mijjile anymore, after all most of it was cut off anyway in the beginning.

Existential shame is a different beast, that stuff happens when someone becomes ashamed to belong to a culture. It uproots the deepest beliefs held by individual. After that point, existence becomes meaningless and life becomes a struggle to find meaning. Successful invasion, defeat, loss of land, loss of symbols would make anyone who respected these symbols get uprooted and deeply upset. The natural response then is to try to re-establish the culture. The shame goes away when some form of a meaningful culture is returned to the society. Society again becomes livable, culture now has meaning.

Usually a successful colonizer destroys the cultural institutions of the colonized and installs his own institutions that make sure every kid that grows up is ashamed of the culture that was and hence is pushed to adopting the culture of the invader. The Mughals and the briturds were good at this. The idea obviously is to keep shaming the native culture, and repeat it on and on and on in every possible way. al-BBC and al-Guardian do the same thing, so do movies like Slumdog Millionaire, and their origin is always the Islamic emirates of briturdstan

The difference between the 1947-non-muslim-elites of India and the muslim elites of Porkistan is that the muslim elites in Porkistan went through two shame-transitions by 1947. The first one was after the Mughal barbarians invaded, they converted to Islam out of shame. The second is when they become briturd boot lickers. These leaves a rather bad taste in their mouth. They were ashamed of being Hindu, then they were ashamed to be Mussalman. They were not ready for a third shame-transition that is to be ruled by the Kufr, whom they all originated from. That would be the ultimate shame and they were already under two layers of shame. I believe this is what caused Bakistan to originate.

The above reason I believe is also why a loss to India will not be digested by Porkis. And instead of acting grown up and agreeing that they lost all the wars they ever fought, they like to deny, deny, deny and repeat the lie a million times until they themselves start to believe in it.

In any fundamentalist position the idea of shame is inverted and perverted. Be it fundamentalist Islam, or fundamentalist communism or any cult. The shame is the result when a follower does not achieve the unachievably high ideals set up in the "holy book" or the "reference" or the "bible". As RajeshAji has mentioned above, the shame in the Ghazi is in getting defeated, either by violence or by culture. And that is indeed the way to roast Porkistan. However to successfully roast the porkis we need to institutionalize the system of shame. We need to destroy their cultural symbols, and replace their cultural institution that shame them into becoming Indics, and keep shaming them into this for a few more centuries. IMO That is the only permanent solution to Porkistan

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby ramana » 13 Dec 2011 03:06

Are you a pisko master perchance!

Yes its the double colonization and the shame that Kaushal speaks of in Indic Studies.

Naipaul's books also bring this out but in verbose manner.

You are very direct and not obfuscating.

Also the RAPE think submitting to US massa is not a new shame just a continuation of the old one to the Brutish. They have institutionalized it in the TSPA so even new recruits grow up thinking its normal.

And going back to your earlier post on colonizer and colonized minds, recall the Indian elite hanker for Booker prize as the ultimate goal. Not beyond it.

I would like Premji or Nilekani to insititute a very high value prize to revert the gaze.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby devesh » 13 Dec 2011 03:20

we don't need centuries to "shame" Pakis. if we commit ourselves to that path, it can be done in 2 generations. in the meantime, parts and portions of Pak should come under direct Indian control. and in these parts, we start experimenting with the best ways to converting them from Islam. within 100 years, Islam as we know it, could very easily become neutered and a 'slave' to the Indic dharma.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby parsuram » 13 Dec 2011 03:30

deleted by mod
Last edited by archan on 14 Dec 2011 00:53, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: no matter what you think. BRF has a policy regarding religions. Warning issued.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby KLNMurthy » 13 Dec 2011 04:11

devesh wrote:we don't need centuries to "shame" Pakis. if we commit ourselves to that path, it can be done in 2 generations. in the meantime, parts and portions of Pak should come under direct Indian control. and in these parts, we start experimenting with the best ways to converting them from Islam. within 100 years, Islam as we know it, could very easily become neutered and a 'slave' to the Indic dharma.

Doing this is as easy, and as hard, as teaching ourselves to treat pakis with disdain and contempt. No more IPLs, fawning media interactions, bhaichara summits, IMF waivers, nothing. We have to be seen to be doing this indefinitely, offering no hope for rehabilitation of echandee.

It can be almost completely non-violent and cost-free. It will break their spirit and make them turn on each other. The thing that haunts their TFTA nightmares is that the brahmins and banias will treat them like "untouchables". It is this fear that is the heart of their echandee angst and drives all their insane gyrations.

But I don't think we have the strength of character to carry out such a comprehensive and sustained shunning. What I see from us is a vacillation between delusional kumbaya and unrealistic wet dreams about solving the problem once and for all by waging nuclear war, sacrificing "a few" of our cities and so on.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby a_kumar » 13 Dec 2011 04:37

Am going to describe a few scenarios here.. to chart possibilities.

There are two sides of No-fly zone (A) prevents access to TSPA (B) Legitimizes massa's air activity. The second part will mean that any potential threat to massa's air assets will be legitimate target (read "good ghazis", since uniformed will NOT do it officially) and this is the crucial goal here, not the former.

Y. Kanan wrote:Why would the US declare a no-fly zone over Baluchistan? How is that any less offensive (to Pakis) than enforcing a no-fly zone elsewhere over Pakistan, and what would be the point anyway?


As for "Why", let me elaborate:

(1) Even if land route is allowed after the temperatures simmer down, it will still be at risk of sabotage by non-state elements at the whims of eyeyeseye (plenty of examples to support that claim and now the veil of pretention is gone). So air corridor is the ONLY reliable delivery mechanism for massa to keep his troops well rationed with patake (remember NDN does not allow lethal wares and it is assumed that it will stay that way). IOW, air corridor is massa's chicken's neck that eyeyeseye can exploit.

In this context, note that the tactically brilliant (TB) have been upping the ante throughout this year. The last gauntlet was to shut down the land route, but it is already a broken record now. They have been repeatedly trying that out and if provocations continue, at some point, the TB factor will lobby for upping the ante again. What option is left but to temporarily close the air corridor?

I am sure there are some in TSPA that are smarter than to go after massa like that, but there are also TB part. And that is where one has to help the TB. Hypothetically, what if the TB are pushed further down the slippery slope and what if their knee jerk reaction is to revoke the air corridor? What options does US have but to create a no-fly zone?

(2) Massa desparately needs the third-eye in the sky. BUT Pakistan declared them bull cattle.

It is probably just a bluff, but what is interesting is it appears to have changed the rules of engagement to enable a more trigger happy state. The uniformed ghazis are free to engage hostiles (legitimately so) as they encounter them. Add to this, it seems like TB are planning on distribution MANPADs to "good gazhis" (see previous post). If you recollect, the victors of Soviet afghan theatre boast that they brought down the Soviets with stingers. TB and the Good gazhis will surely be tempted to employ the already successful strategy, but now on the US/NATO.

Add to that US has limited reach in Quetta even though that is the node of all operations. If massa can control the air above Quetta, then shurra will be pushed further into the heartland!

As for "How".

Watch the splendid piskology going on parallel on this thread. TSPA can tolerate jhappad from anybody, if it can prevent jhappad from desh or as long as the jappad is not from desh. Anything that might directly favor India will be most viciously attacked by TSPA and from that prism, PoK and Baluchistan aren't in the same league.

If I were massa, I wouldn't touch PoK with a ten-foot pole. Moreover, that also brings in a strong dragon factor, complicating things even further.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby devesh » 13 Dec 2011 04:47

KLNMurthy ji,

don't be so discouraged. a point will come sometime in the near future where the fundamental rashtriya attitude of Indian regime will have changed. we might not be aware of them yet, but once the "search" for something deeper than the present vacuum ideology begins, it will only end with a "return" to "nativism". Pakis are making a delusional and colossal blunder. the previous generations had the baggage of "shared destiny". it was not until long ago that Paki geography and demography were considered "us".

the "search" will have an ironic effect: it will reopen the Indic eyes by showing that Paki area is an integral part of "Bharat". but the gradual distancing of the Indian psyche from the feeling of Pakis are "us", that has been going on since 1947, will be accelerated and taken to the logical conclusion. the Indic will realize that Paki land is Bharat, but will not have any such "connection" with the present Islamic demography.

by continuing with the previous behavior, Pak is assuming that Indians are going to have this "Pakis are 'us'" feeling in perpetuity. Indic will not be like this forever. whenever the Indic has felt the need for a fundamental change in the rashtriya attitudes and governance systems, he has also concomitantly shed a lot of the baggage of the old system.

Pak doesn't realize this. they are forming the memories that future generations will have of them. and these memories aren't good. previous generations had the "old" connections to Paki land. present generations don't. Paki behavior will not be tolerated for much longer.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby A_Gupta » 13 Dec 2011 05:03

How does the feeling of shame persist across generations? E.g., Jinnah's grandfather converted to Islam, had to be sometime between 1800-1850. From Paneli village in Gondal state, per Wiki, it was ruled by a Hindu dynasty, so it wasn't likely a conversion under duress. How did the Ghazi feeling of shame percolate into Jinnah?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby svinayak » 13 Dec 2011 05:15

When they keep the last name the same as their Hindu heritage then this feeling persists. If they accept Indian origin hen they dont have problem.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby KLNMurthy » 13 Dec 2011 05:28

@devesh garu I take your point but it doesn't do much to diminish my unhappiness at the state of affairs.

Our earlier generations' view of pak was shaped by Direct Action, Noakhali etc., but they mostly chose to forgive. This week marks the 40th anniversary of the capture of 90k criminals against humanity but we chose to not judge them and let them go. Surely , on that scale, we who did not avail the opportunity to make a powerful statement for humanity and against asuric atrocities, also become culpable in the crime. These omissions taint our collective soul and dull the conscience. Now , we don't even think of organizing a simple boycott of pakis after 26/11.

Being Indic is nothing if it is just a question of "our tribe vs their tribe" and eventually ours will prevail. The tribe, homo indicus if you will, is meaningful only insofar as it embodies a dual moral commitment--to discern and uphold dharma and to fight against asuric forces. Fighting the paki because he is against us helps our physical survival and that is a must, but without the drive of moral outrage it is a hollow survival. And against an enemy who is convinced of his own moral superiority, even the physical survival is always in jeopardy.

I was alive in 1971 and yes I feel depressed that we haven't learned the moral lessons of that unpunished crime

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby parsuram » 13 Dec 2011 05:36

You want see self hate and self loathing pouring out of a paki, watch him/her ( not so much her) pretending to be Indian- specially when they get caught at it. Priceless.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Dipanker » 13 Dec 2011 06:44

I don't understand why there is a need on part of some people on this forum to use derogatory language towards Islam and towards its Prophet, I am sorry but I don't think BR stands for that, or at least didn't in the past.

I am not against honest and justified criticism of any religion, whether Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism etc. But criticism just for the sake of it and with profane and derogatory language is nothing but reflection of hate and bigotry.

Quality of BR has already taken a hit over a period of time, but lately it is going south in a hurry.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 13 Dec 2011 06:46

devesh wrote:
You reap what you sow. while I was looking at that picture, I felt sorry for the human loss, but then I was reminded of the tragedies inflicted by this very population for the last few centuries, in the name of their god and religion. and I find myself wondering why the he** are so many people of BRF falling over their heels to express their dismay and utmost and sincerest sorrow at this?


Let me explain that one. You see, the ultimate shaming and sidelining of Pakistan necessarily means shaming and mocking the one crutch that Pakistan has used to justify its murderous activities against India - Islam. It is the Pakis and their apologists in KSA and Indonesia and a few other places who have insisted on repeating the following "absolute lies" catch phrases about Islam
1. Islam is a religion of peace
2. Muslims don't kill Muslims
3. Women are respected in Islam

Highlighting that photograph of dead women and children who were killed by the Sunni followers of Mohammad of the religion of peace just because they were designated as Shia Muslims is a fantastic method of smearing Pakis and Islamic faces with the fact that Islam is nowhere near a religion of peace, and that Muslims not killing Muslims is a load of crock that you need to laugh at. That is the reason for highlighting and using that photograph.

The other thing that I believe is necessary is to make sure that all these photos are so well known in pubic that anyone will know at a glance what they represent. Because you can be sure that the slimy "Pure Muslims" of Pakistan will use these very same photos to invoke anger and say "Here are Muslims killed by Kafirs".

Ultimately the "settling" of Pakistan and the Islamic world will require the forced acceptance that Islam cannot wantonly demand the deaths of others just because it says so in some book or was mandated by some long dead dude.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 13 Dec 2011 06:54

Dipanker wrote:I don't understand why there is a need on part of some people on this forum to use derogatory language towards Islam and towards its Prophet,


Islam also says what you say and you suggest that we accept that. Fine. Let us accept that. Islam also says that Jews are wrong, and in places the book talks of killing jews. If we disagree with that we find ourselves agreeing with Islam in some parts and disagreeing in other parts. If we are going to follow double standards about Islam, why this particular double standard that you seem to want? Why not agree the whole hog that jews need to be killed out of respect for Islam, or alternatively say what you think about anything else?

Please don't bring BR into the picture. Think of what is going on in your own mind.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Dipanker » 13 Dec 2011 07:05

shiv wrote:
Dipanker wrote:I don't understand why there is a need on part of some people on this forum to use derogatory language towards Islam and towards its Prophet,


Islam also says what you say and you suggest that we accept that. Fine. Let us accept that. Islam also says that Jews are wrong, and in places the book talks of killing jews. If we disagree with that we find ourselves agreeing with Islam in some parts and disagreeing in other parts. If we are going to follow double standards about Islam, why this particular double standard that you seem to want? Why not agree the whole hog that jews need to be killed out of respect for Islam, or alternatively say what you think about anything else?

Please don't bring BR into the picture. Think of what is going on in your own mind.


I am not suggesting any of that at all. In fact I agree with 99% of your posts! But I don't think profane language should be used, it just lowers the standard of discourse.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby SSridhar » 13 Dec 2011 07:16

Cosmo_R wrote:IIRC, the legend of the rogue stingers has been debunked. There is a sell by date and the specialized batteries go kaput..

A 'stinger' is not always a 'Stinger'. ANZAs can also be 'rogue stingers'.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby A_Gupta » 13 Dec 2011 07:21

Where the Prophet was wrong, I have no problem in saying that he was wrong. It is the contention here that a "true Muslim" however, can never say that the Prophet was wrong, and thus is stuck in the 7th century. Other Muslims have to either pay lip service only (and thus be hypocrites), remain ignorant and therefore say nothing, out of ignorance, or else practice deceit. It is the firm belief of many here that Muslims have no way out of this dilemma, the dilemma is essential to Islam.

I would not be so confident - the "essentialist" and "innate" labels (implying fatal flaws) has been applied in the past, with spectacular failure, to other people, including Hindus. Nor would I gratuitously alienate those who might lead their religion and their community out of this mess. They also share a country with us.

Then there is the fact that invective often takes the place of thought.

So I concur with Dipanker.

PS: the history of the last 60 years could have been very different had NWFP had a common frontier with post-1947 India.
http://criticalppp.com/archives/65961
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby jrjrao » 13 Dec 2011 07:23

Reuters:

US lawmakers freeze $700 mln to Pakistan over IEDS
Dec 12 (Reuters) - The leaders of a U.S. House-Senate negotiating panel said on Monday they had agreed to freeze $700 million in U.S. aid to Pakistan until it provides some assurances of assistance in the fight against improvised explosive devices in the region.

The freeze on U.S. aid was agreed as part of a defense bill that is expected to be passed this week.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby parsuram » 13 Dec 2011 08:06

Dipanker wrote:I don't understand why there is a need on part of some people on this forum to use derogatory language towards Islam and towards its Prophet, I am sorry but I don't think BR stands for that, or at least didn't in the past.

I am not against honest and justified criticism of any religion, whether Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism etc. But criticism just for the sake of it and with profane and derogatory language is nothing but reflection of hate and bigotry.

Quality of BR has already taken a hit over a period of time, but lately it is going south in a hurry.


Dipankar: I would not have minded in the least if you had specifically named me and my post as the one that you responded to. In my defence, let me say, first, that I do not have such a loose and flexible definition of religion that Islam would qualify. Second, I doubt that you have read much on the life of mohhamet from any number of balanced non Muslim sources, because if you had, you wouldn't object so strongly to my derogatory comments about him. And then there is the gory history, of true civilized, gentle, truly peace loving peoples from most of the inhabited world, peoples senslessly murdered by followers of that miserable arab man, that to shower him with peace every time his name is mentioned is a grotesque insult to human intellect and civilization. I must mention that in all that history is a part of my own family's turbulations leading to the horrible deaths of many of its members at the hands of that man's barbaric followers, and on the basis of his words and " ideas". I am firmly of the belief that the only means which civilized people have to survive the onslaught of barbaric people is to be, towards the barbarians, more uncivilized, more barbaric more brutal than the barbarians who would destroy them. So, in deferance to the gentle and kind ancestors from my family, and those of the families of many other BR members, I stated my sentiments exactly as they came to me.

Best regards
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby RamaY » 13 Dec 2011 08:30

Dipanker wrote:I don't understand why there is a need on part of some people on this forum to use derogatory language towards Islam and towards its Prophet, I am sorry but I don't think BR stands for that, or at least didn't in the past.

I am not against honest and justified criticism of any religion, whether Islam, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism etc. But criticism just for the sake of it and with profane and derogatory language is nothing but reflection of hate and bigotry.

Quality of BR has already taken a hit over a period of time, but lately it is going south in a hurry.

Lead the way sir!

How can criticism be honest and justified when you blame others when they point fingers at the ideology that justifies and encourages the kind of behavior its founder/prophet, it's society and it's followers demonstrates and the founder of that nonsense?

Please criticize few aspects of Islam without insulting it's prophet.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby RamaY » 13 Dec 2011 08:44

Q: On Dec. 25, a female suicide bomber killed more than 45 people in Pakistan. Why is suicide terrorism on the upswing there?
A: There’s been something like a 600 per cent increase in the number of attacks in Pakistan, because increasingly we’re seeing the Sunnis use it against the Shia. There have been fatwas within Pakistan saying, essentially, “The Shia are not real Muslims, we should get rid of every single one of them.” It’s justifying within a religious frame the killing of other Muslims, which is completely against the Koran. This misuse of the Koran to provide legitimacy for violence is common now, particularly in Europe, where terrorists tend not to be well-educated Muslims. They’re either converts or very secular Muslims, like the 7/7 bombers. So if a charismatic sheik tells them, “This is justified in the Koran,” they can’t say, “No, it’s not.”


Are Shias Muslims per Quran? If Yes, by killing fellow Muslims, Paki Sunnis became impure. If they are not Muslims, still Pakistan is impure.

Pak lurks! This is for you.

You are failing in every aspect of Islam because you are not pure enough. Prove your purity by killing all the impured amongst you.

Then you may have a chance to fight with Hindustan as an Islamic army. Until then your prophet and Allah are going to make you fail.

Don't believe me? Read Old Testament to see how many times the Jewish god punished them.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 13 Dec 2011 09:02

Laksmikanth, Arun have you read this? I posted it on another thread some days ago
http://frontpagemag.com/2011/12/02/non- ... -the-west/
My name is Bosch and I’m a recovering Muslim.

That is, if Muslims don’t kill me for leaving Islam, which it requires them to do. That’s just one of the reasons I’ve been writing and drawing against Islam and its Jihad for a number of years now. But fortunately for us, Islam hasn’t been able to make every Muslim its slave, just as Nazism wasn’t able to turn every German into a Nazi. So there is Islam and there are Muslims. Muslims who take Islam seriously are at war with us and Muslims who don’t aren’t.

But that doesn’t mean we should consider these reluctant Muslims allies against Jihad. I’ve been around Muslims my entire life and most of them truly don’t care about Islam. The problem I have with many of these essentially non-Muslim Muslims, especially in the middle of this war being waged on us by their more consistent co-religionists, is that they give the enemy cover. They force us to play a game of Muslim Roulette since we can’t tell which Muslim is going to blow himself up until he does. And their indifference about the evil being committed in the name of their religion is a big reason why their reputation is where it is.


The thought that occurs to me is that shame is not necessarliy a memory of some remote past event, but a daily ongoing problem. A lot of Muslims realise fully well that complete nonsense is being perpetrated in the name of Islam, but, having been born in the family as it were, they are faced with a stark choice.

If they admit that criminality and hatred are being promoted in the name of Islam, they are not merely shamed, but as per the rules they have been brought up with, they can be physically harmed. The easiest route is denial. Don't fight it.

One way to combat this menace is to ensure the safety of minorities among Muslims. Protect Shias and Ahmedis from Sunnis and protect Sunnis from Shia, and protect all of society, all non Muslims, from violence perpetrated in the name of Islam.

But first there has to be widespread understanding that Islam does actually allow violence in the name of religion. The rules are very clear. As long as non-Muslims are in denial of that in the name of sensitivity, secularism or religion, no progress can occur.

The dilemma that non Muslims face is that is they stop being in denial and start talking about it, all sorts of other issues crop up. In Christian societies the ghosts of a violent church are exhumed. In a society like India where no religion has been suppressed by any ideology or indigenous faith, the denial that Islam is violent stems from a need to not get into a fight. We call that secularism, but our Indian motivation for secularism is different from the motivation that created secularism in Europe.

But ultimately, if we were to tell the truth we have to accept that this is the information age. Translations of all holy books are available freely and one is free to use one's own judgement and ask whether or not passages from the Quran are being followed to the letter. In cases where a passage calling for violence is being followed to the letter - it is bound to cause shame among some Muslims . and denial. But the alternative is to cite secularism and keep one's mouth shut even when terrorists go about Mumbai saying "This is a war between Islam and Kafirs (non-Muslims/unbelievers). Allah will reward you for killing Kafirs"

Catch 22. Either tell he truth and be shamed or provoke a fight. Or shut up and deny and lie.

is is any surprise that the people who call themselves "pure" Muslims hate any form of recording - even a statue is a recording.
Last edited by shiv on 13 Dec 2011 09:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby SSridhar » 13 Dec 2011 09:15

From, 'This Day That Age' section of The Hindu
Pak. support to China

Drawing attention to reports in the Pakistan Press supporting Portugal and China against India, Mr. Nehru declared in the Rajya Sabha on December 11: “It is an extraordinary thing that a country like Pakistan, tied up with all kinds of military alliances, presumably against China, should support China when the question of India comes up. On the one hand Pakistan, together with other countries, has openly declared that they are against colonialism and imperialism and yet on the other support the Portuguese Government and call India an imperialist Power trying to impose its will on Portugal, and may be on China too presumably. It is really a quite extraordinary kind of attitude.”

So, a year before the hostilities between India and China, Pakistan had started supporting PRC, even while being part of SEATO to ostensibly stop spread of communism.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Rajdeep » 13 Dec 2011 09:30

10'th anniversary of Parliament Attacks. Its days like these that make me loose hope in finding peace for this dharmic country.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 13 Dec 2011 09:38

Rajdeep wrote:10'th anniversary of Parliament Attacks. Its days like these that make me loose hope in finding peace for this dharmic country.

Saar expecting peace by the mere passage of time is a parody that mocks the word "dharma". Please..?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Airavat » 13 Dec 2011 09:38

US House-Senate negotiating panel to freeze $700 million aid to Pakistan

Pakistan is one of the largest recipients of U.S. foreign aid, and the cutback announced is only a small proportion of the billions in civil and military assistance it gets a year. But it could presage greater cuts as calls grow in the United States to penalize Islamabad for failing to act against militant groups and, at worst, helping them, following the secret U.S. raid on a Pakistan military town in which al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden was killed.

The United States wants "assurances that Pakistan is countering improvised explosive devices in their country that are targeting our coalition forces", Representative Howard McKeon, a House Republican, told reporters. "The vast majority of the material used to make improvised explosive devices used against U.S. forces in Afghanistan originates from two fertilizer factories inside Pakistan," Senator John McCain, a Republican, said in the Senate last week.

The provision freezing $700 million in aid was agreed upon by leaders of the armed services committees from both parties in the House and Senate, including McCain.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby johneeG » 13 Dec 2011 09:53

OT, but I am confused. So, a noob query: Is Arun == A_Gupta?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby parsuram » 13 Dec 2011 09:57

A_Gupta:

Where the Prophet was wrong, I have no problem in saying that he was wrong.


Really? perhaps you should check with Salman Rushdie what he thinks of your approach to enlightened discussion within islam. Better still, go to any of the collection of islamic web sites, and offer this opinion, making sure to provide your address, zip and phone number. It is easy to come on BR and offer an intellectually balanced view point on islam.
Then there is the fact that invective often takes the place of thought.
So I concur with Dipanker.


Not so much of a fact, really. Invective takes effort on part of civil people simply because they are not used to exercising it. Check with GB Shaw. I have never been impolite towards civil, polite people. As for the others, why should I care, and more to the point, why should you, other than you are not entirely familiar with this muhhamat guy. I will offer you and your friends RamaY and Dipankar a corrective path. I suggest for your reading pleasure the following:

Mohammed [Paperback] (1974)

Maxime Rodinson (Author)
Two reviews, one muslim (arab) one not(American) you are welcome to read both excellent reviews recommending this book. More to the point, this book was written in 1974, before the hype about Islam and the appearance of sharply divided propaganda books. I suggest everyone interested in a true, unbiased, unvarnished account of muhhamad's life should read this book.[French Author, English translation]

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Rajdeep » 13 Dec 2011 10:04

shiv wrote:Saar expecting peace by the mere passage of time is a parody that mocks the word "dharma". Please..?


The expectation is not peace by passing of time. And the despair is about missed opportunities in all these years.

PS - I am guessing I am younger than you (26 yrs) so please don't be so formal with me. I am just happy to have access to some form of education from this forum. And almost all the members of this forum have helped me make some educated opinion.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Sushupti » 13 Dec 2011 10:09

Parashu bhi why you want to meer the fate of Kartvirya Arjuna?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Arjun » 13 Dec 2011 10:21

parsuram wrote: As for the others, why should I care, and more to the point, why should you, other than you are not entirely familiar with this muhhamat guy. I will offer you and your friends RamaY and Dipankar a corrective path.

Parsuram ji,

The issue is that the right to critically analyze religions on BRF has in itself been a hard slog and even that privilege has been available only in fits and starts. Using profanity while discussing religious figures is pushing beyond the boundaries of what is acceptable social norm today - and further, it sets back the efforts of those on this forum who do want more threads to critically analyze the intolerance that hides in the garb of religion.

The moderators need to take a call on this one.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby johneeG » 13 Dec 2011 10:24

The following book explains why any criticism of Islam is considered a criticism of Mohammad and vice versa:
Understanding Islam through Hadis

It is to be noted that the book's author is a 'hindutva-vadi'.
Last edited by johneeG on 13 Dec 2011 10:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 13 Dec 2011 10:25

Rajdeep wrote:
The expectation is not peace by passing of time. And the despair is about missed opportunities in all these years.

PS - I am guessing I am younger than you (26 yrs)


May I point out that you, like so many other Indians have already convinced yourself that Indian history is a mass of missed opportunities to the extent that you are talking of losing hope ate your age. It is odd isn't it? Our education system does that. You have had the same education that I and my peers had.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby johneeG » 13 Dec 2011 10:27

Rajdeep wrote:
shiv wrote:Saar expecting peace by the mere passage of time is a parody that mocks the word "dharma". Please..?


The expectation is not peace by passing of time. And the despair is about missed opportunities in all these years.



Absolute peace can only be had at realisation of Gyanam. Until then, one has to be content with victory or truce. Many a times, truce is mistaken for peace...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 13 Dec 2011 10:28

johneeG wrote:OT, but I am confused. So, a noob query: Is Arun == A_Gupta?


Well A is either Arun or Archana. That much I know :rotfl:


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