Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 2011

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby harbans » 30 Dec 2011 14:48

Wonder what does it say about the mettle of our agencies given that we seem to have held up pretty well against this big league rogue agency.


Well our guys tapped Mushy's call from China during Kargil ops. As for ISI i don't have much regard for it. It's a been a big failure if you really look at it. It's ruthless sure and has dealings/ works with all kinds of Mafia and criminal networks which other intels don't really deal with. ISI double dealed with the CIA for example, while CIA, Pentagon and the SD considered them 'Allies'. Now thats not some holding against, it's like back stabbing a friend who's powerful but trusts you. They are good at that. But all bets are off if the CIA or RAW really start trying to do what the ISI wants to do here. The day RAW really starts working on the Baluchistan, Sindh and Pashtun movements i doubt the ISI can be considered anything big league.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby sum » 30 Dec 2011 14:56

surinder wrote:Steve Coll's book is terribly engrossing.

Some tidbits from it:
.....

Just couldn't resist after reading your post and have immediately ordered this book on FlipKart. Should be nestled in my hands within 2 days!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby chetak » 30 Dec 2011 15:05

sum wrote:
surinder wrote:Steve Coll's book is terribly engrossing.

Some tidbits from it:
.....

Just couldn't resist after reading your post and have immediately ordered this book on FlipKart. Should be nestled in my hands within 2 days!



Sirjee,

If it is ghost wars you are talking about, mobi and epub versions are available from the usual shady sites. :)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby JE Menon » 30 Dec 2011 15:05

Yes Ghost Wars is well worth a read, and is a useful reference as well. Totally American perspective of course (why should we expect any different?), but Coll pulls no punches. Books such as these set helped to get the Americans thinking about Pakistan slightly differently than they used to. BTW, Coll was a friend of Daniel Pearl and was involved in supporting and facilitating in the early days after the kidnapping. Marianne Pearl's book reveals this, and also I believe Bernard Henry Levy's book on the Pearl murder.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby sum » 30 Dec 2011 15:18

chetak wrote:Sirjee,

If it is ghost wars you are talking about, mobi and epub versions are available from the usual shady sites. :)

Somehow, havent got upto reading and enjoying the PDF versions of these books. Like the print version better. :)

Case in point is Mitrokhin archive which i plodded through in PDF but once i got the print version, pages just flew by.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby SSridhar » 30 Dec 2011 15:43

Najam Sethi vows to expose the 'actors' behind his death threats
Senior Pakistani journalist Najam Sethi has claimed that he has received serious threats from state and non-state actors after he raised questions about the military’s role in politics.

He said if the threats did not stop, he would be “compelled” to name the “organisations and officials” who were responsible for them.

Mr. Sethi said during his show on Geo News channel that the organisations’ operatives were “in touch with and threatening several other senior journalists”.
{What is that mysterious 'organization' ? The Angels ?}

The journalists did not speak about the threats before “because we did not want to destabilise things”, he said. “But the time has come when all of them should come forward and speak about it publicly.”

“This is not the age when intelligence operatives should be threatening their own civilians. A state within the state is not acceptable,” Mr. Sethi said.

Mr. Sethi’s remarks that he had been receiving “serious” threats both from the “non-state and state actors” came a week after journalist Hamid Mir claimed that he had received threatening messages from the “security establishment”.

Mr. Sethi, who is Editor-in-Chief of the weekly The Friday Times, has faced problems with the security establishment in the past too.

He recently spent several months in the U.S. following reports that he and his family had been receiving threats.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby CRamS » 30 Dec 2011 17:56

amit wrote:
Now regarding what CRS calls "love-making" with Pakistan, you gotta understand that unless you're an isolationist country like N Korea you cannot freeze all relations with your biggest neighbour because such a foreign policy move follows the law of diminishing returns, something which I suspect the govt realised after the freeze following 26/11. If you can't put a permanent end to this pest you gotta keep talking to it.

IMO, and I know that there's will be quite an amount of disagreement on this, if we follow a mutual policy of belligerency against Pakistan we only reinforce in the world's eye the == nomenclature that we want to distance ourselves from. I think that the idea is to play for time and let Pakistan sink in its own sh!t while we keep progressing.

However, that being said I personally believe that things like SeS and some of MMS' comments were overboard and were not necessary. So yes, while I think I understand the strategic vision I get a sense the implementation sometimes gets a bit overboard in the bhai-bhai and big brother nonsense. And yes I love to dream of the Arjun rolling down the streets of Slumabad. Who knows perhaps I live to see the day as eventually there has to be a final solution to Pakistan.


Some good points above, but some fine-tuning is needed from me :-).

My friend, equal equal is going to be there no matter what. I agree, in the absence of the ability to score a comprehensive hit over TSP, discretion is the better part of valor. That said, there have got to be red lines. Equal equal simply cannot be accepted beyond a certain point or else the "world" that you talk about, for whom Indian interests hardly exist, will only push the goal post further & further.

My gripe with MMS and those around him is that they have legitimized equal equal so much so that be it on Kashmir, be it nukes, be it on Afghanistan, the "world" views TSP perfidy purely through the prism of TSP's so called "rivalry" with India. Like Steve Coll, even Lyse Ducet of the BBC is a class journalist and has spared no punches on TSP when it comes TSP's perfidy against the west, but like Coll, she cannot take off her colonial blinkers when it comes to TSP's terror against India: "regional rivalry"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16071986


People to watch:

Gen Ashfaq Kayani: Watch how Pakistan's army chief of staff handles relations with the US, weak civilian leaders at home, and militant groups that serve as proxies in regional rivalry.




And one of the the reasons this is because of lack of clear red lines and forceful articulation of Indian interests. How else is one supposed to interpret MMS's constant refrain that India cannot play a role in world affairs without kissing up to TSP, India'a and TSP's destinies are linked, "Hindu terrorism" is a bigger threat to India. I mean the list goes on. This doesn't sound like a Chanakyan strategy to me, it shows a certain inherent predilection that only re-enforces equal equal or worse in the eyes of the world.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Rangudu » 30 Dec 2011 18:08

I agree with what CRS is trying to say here. Yes it is true that past governments, even led by so called nationalists like ABV, had sued for a false peace with TSP. But Manmohan Singh is an order of magnitude higher in terms of doing anything to downplay TSPA's terror war against India - both in terms of foreign policy as well as internal policy. The 'Saffron Terror' == LeT/TSPA terror meme is now entrenched in the Indian popular narrative. That alone would make Manmohan a IK Gujral 2.0 version. Now you add to that the foreign policy missteps - you get the picture.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 30 Dec 2011 18:27

Rangudu wrote:The 'Saffron Terror' == LeT/TSPA terror meme is now entrenched in the Indian popular narrative.


RMan I have noticed no such connection in the "popular narrative" of India. Please don't conjure up something that does not exist in India although the idea may have taken root in circles outside India that are heavily influenced by Pakistan.

Saffron terror is a Congress party concoction that has no connection with "popular narrative" in India. The Congress party is in power and Digvijay Singh, P Chidambaram and other Congress heavyweights are using Saffron terror as a political ploy to smear BJP and get Indian Muslim votes on their side. That is a political game that can lose them support - and has to be used judiciously. But "popular narrative"? What's that?

"Saffron"==Hindu is not a meme at all in India. That is why it is fine for the Kangressis to use it. It is the English speaking elite who connect the word "Saffron" with Hindus. Hindu terror has been used by Pakistan for decades and is not a new Congress party concoction.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Singha » 30 Dec 2011 18:38

the latest issue of outlook mag has some funny segments for 2012

Will Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari survive through 2012?
Hamid Mir, Executive editor, Geo TV Pakistan

Despite all his weaknesses, Zardari’s enemies cannot remove him through any constitutional means. His party is standing behind him like a rock. Enemies want him to resign on medical grounds. He says that ‘If I resign, democracy will go away forever. Yes, democracy is sick like me but this sick democracy will fight.’ He is living in President House, Islamabad, with his two camels, eight cows, 20 goats :oops: and one cat. A few days back, I was astonished to see a lot of weapons in his bedroom. Despite it being a chilly evening in December, he showed me his shooting range. Zardari told me, “Escape is not an option, I will fight politically. If they attack me physically, I will fight with my weapons. I will go out from President House only in an ambulance.”
---
The nation wants to know, who will Arnab Goswami declare war on next?
Rahul Roushan, Editor at satirical website Faking News

Who will Arnab (or Ornab, as Vinod Mehta correctly pronounces it, lest he is asked direct questions for mispronouncing) declare a war on next year is akin to asking which political coalition Ajit Singh will join next or which bowler will get thrashed by Virender Sehwag next. :oops: I think the person under attack could be anyone, even God, I mean Sachin Tendulkar. So, he’d better make his 100th century pretty soon next year or his (prospective) Bharat Ratna could be taken away by Arnab. And for lesser mortals like politicians, there will be no respite even in 2012. Our leaders might be able to wish away Anna in 2012, but Arnab will always be there.
---
Last edited by Singha on 30 Dec 2011 18:43, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Rahul M » 30 Dec 2011 18:41

shiv ji, it may not be a dominant strain in India but it has seriously undermined India's stand internationally and given ammo to India haters.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 30 Dec 2011 18:50

Rahul M wrote:shiv ji, it may not be a dominant strain in India but it has seriously undermined India's stand internationally and given ammo to India haters.


Please remember that "India haters" got their biggest and most long lasting ammunition from Babri Masjid and the Ahmedabad riots. India is full of India haters who stand right up in front and call out India's name in connection with all sorts of "human rights" abuses.

The topic is seriously OT for this thread but "Hindus" are hardly a proud and self confident people. They are constantly apologetic and reticent . I have a thread devoted to that, as you know.

Hindus feel hurt and upset when someone tells them that they are violent. Actually being violent and unapologetic is the very behavior we all admire in Pakistan, the USA, Russia etc. That is the behavior we are demanding from the cowardly pusillanimous prime minister. The occasions on which Hindus have been violent and unapologetic seem to evoke shame and mortification that we are getting a bad name.

What we seem to be looking for is a world where Hindus and "Indic" non Hindus are confidently screwing everyone else but others don't criticise us and feel that we are the nicest, wisest, oldest and gentlest civilization The world does not work that way.

Odd isn't it? Says something about us.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Gerard » 30 Dec 2011 19:09

Despite all his weaknesses, Zardari’s enemies cannot remove him through any constitutional means.


Pakistan. Doctrine of necessity. Jail. Gallows. Unmarked grave.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby SSridhar » 30 Dec 2011 19:19

Mediator in Taliban-US talks backed Kashmir jihad - Praveen Swami in The Hindu
Expelled by Egypt's socialist rulers for his neo-fundamentalist views, Dr. Ramadan received a warm reception — and a radio programme — when he landed in Pakistan in 1948.

The Pakistani-Canadian scholar Tarek Fatah said Dr. Ramadan's work “was instrumental in turning a secular Muslim country into a hotbed of Islamic extremism.” Dr. Ramadan also visited the White House in 1953, where he met with President Dwight Eisenhower.

Said Ramadan was an important member of Ikhwan-ul-Muslimeen and was also the son-in-law of Mohammed al Banna, the Ikhwan's founder. He stayed in Pakistan for several years. Ramadan collaborated closely with Abu Ala al Mawdudi and the result was the creation of Jama'at-e-Islami's rabid student wing, the Islami-Jamia'at-e-Tulaba (IJT) that saw action in East Pakistan and later in J&K. Mawdudi was significantly impressed by the Muslim Brotherhood. The IJT was the only student organization that was allowed to exist in Pakistan after Zia-ul-Haq banned all other student organizations in college/university campuses. The IJT continues to rule the roost in the Punjab University (PU).

The Americans always thought that communism could be effective against the Soviets and encouraged such shady characters as Ramadan. Year 1953 is particularly significant. In January 1953, the ulema of Pakistan mainly led by Jama’at-e-Islami (JI) gave an ultimatum to the then Pakistani Prime Minister, Khwaja Nazimuddin, to declare the Ahmedis as non-Muslims and remove Ahmedis from key government posts including the Foreign Minister’s post held by Sir Zafarullah Khan, an Ahmedi. When the Prime Minister rejected the request and started arresting key Islamist leaders, anti-Ahmedi riots rocked Pakistan, especially West Pakistan and more so the Punjab, in March of the same year. These riots lasted for almost a month and affected Lahore, Rawalpindi, Sialkot, Lyallpur (now Faisalabad), Gujranwala and Montgomerry. When hundreds died (though the military did not admit to much), Martial Law had to be imposed.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby brihaspati » 30 Dec 2011 19:54

If its a tough way to do business - all Americans need to do is allow an independent Balochistan to form with border right up to AFG. If Americans come to an agreement with them - to allow US access to AF as part of the conditions for US support for independence, the Americans have all the cheapest access they need.

Had India managed it, Pakjab would have been impossible to maintain as an independent entity.

Its funny to see people justify their faith in the congrez game - by piously wishing that Pak would fall "into its own shit" all on its own. There has been no example in history of an Islamist majority sh****** falling all on its own within a geographically contiguous entity. Ottoman empire example could be cited - but it was an over-extended conglomerate without the tech level needed to maintain control over the periphery compared to the resources available to competing empires nibbling at those peripheral communities.

Even the Ottomans show the importance of active long term planning and action needed to bring down an Islamist entity.

The reason for Islamist survival lies in the way it organizes its society as structured by the mullahcracy - all geared towards very simple, and concrete demographic strategies, with mobilization of biological greed towards a simple hegemonistic militancy.

Those Indians who are propagating the congrez gameplan of pretending that congrez is playing a supposedly long term game - of engagement and "talking" - and that "talking" is the onlee way, and that India is mortally at the danger of being forced into == onlee, if it does anything more, are speculating as much on rather criminal political lying - as they accuse others of speculating on the role of MMS ji.

In the absence of any concrete proof of intentions, we are forced to go into analyzing preceding behaviour of an organization - and search for consistent patterns, which may indicate better the real attitudes/motives of the org in contrast to what it might pretend publicly for manipulating public opinion.

This long term behaviour of the congrez, consistently has been the supreme concern of preserving personal dynastic power, and the mutually reinforcing power interests of perhaps a constantly regenerated close coterie [composition changes according to the scion - just as in old kingdoms]. Everything else comes secondary.

Personal power hunger of the second scion of the founding line, led to acceptance of Partition in the form and at the time - it happened. This was the foundation opportunity for Pakistan. The complete perversity of the fear of disobedience from periphery that led to deliberate destruction and abandonment of two crucially strategic endpoints of the north Indian arc - created the everlasting power basis of the islamists on the subcontinent, through Pakistan and BD. That was the gift of the second scion - all stemming from this supreme concern about personal power. This personal ego bloated and obstructed the vision so much that there was no problem in being played into a false sense of independence from global power games and a simultaneous false projection of his own historical fantasies as realities of behaviour by neighbours.

The third got paranoid from the obvious consequences of her ancestor's disgrace, and swung the other way. But even here the supreme concern was the preservation of personal power. In the process she suffered from the very consequence of her ancestor's blindness and ego - the formation of Pakistan, and the British hand of help in the transition and transfer of power. She failed to understand that the powers that formed Pakistan using the ego of her ancestor - would feel the need to penalize her for her disgrace of their baby. When she insisted on coming back to power after the ear-boxing given to her for her apparent success against Pakistan - she had to be eliminated.

The elimination was meant as a lesson to the dynasty - that crossing redlines over Pak will not be tolerated and scions will have to personally suffer. The Anglo-Saxon ruling inner core prefers dynastic rulers in non-Anglo-Saxon territories because such dynasties are easier to manipulate on threat of loss of personal power and life.

The fourth scion was dull enough not to understand this subtle message. He too was provoked by the typical sense of omnipotence provided by coteries to intervene in the neighbourhood - and he too was penalized, first through electoral reverse and then finally had to be eliminated.

The fifth scion is perhaps duller but therefore has been brought up in proper islamophile conditioining. The regent is trying to implement the lessons learnt by past scions - and here too, perhaps from a very maternal and loyal instinct - the regent is trying to ensure the continuity of the dynasty.

As long a sthe dynasty and its surrounding coterie is in power - they can be made to be scared of possible elimination and loss of personal power. Since that always happned in the past over anything that directly or indirectly threatened Paki H&D and therefore in turn the real controllers of Pak - as long as the dynasty exists, Indian regimes will never take any action that systematically and consistently undermines the very basis of the Paki superstructure. Therefore without external consistent undermining, just as any other Islamist society - Pak will never crash on itself.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 30 Dec 2011 20:05

Brihaspati hatred of the Congress is one thing but imagining that a non Congress government could have done XY and Z is a problem thought process. History records it that my aunt was not male and hence was my aunt, not uncle, and similarly Congress is in power, not someone else. What we need to look at is not to say "Congress should have done this" , but "Now that Congress has done this how do we move forward. Removing the Congress from power is not going to solve the Pakistan problem magically although I would welcome being told that I am an idiot for saying that on this forum if that happens.

If the attacks on the Congress party on this thread are a sort of sideways "electoral wishing well" on this forum it constitutes a deviation from the topic of the thread and it is odd that the topic is brought up most frequently by people who have more power to change things in the USA than in India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby gakakkad » 30 Dec 2011 20:07

>>In the absence of any concrete proof of intentions, we are forced to go into analyzing preceding behaviour of an organization - and search for consistent patterns, which may indicate better the real attitudes/motives of the org in contrast to what it might pretend publicly for manipulating public opinion.


IMHO there motive is purely muslim votes. There were regions in Guj , pre 2002 when Pakistans cricket victory was celebrated , where even sign boards were in urdu . And even police did not dare enter. These regions formed the major votebank .

I am not surprised , that piggy singh goes to the extent he does after the terror strike .

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 30 Dec 2011 20:10

I think that Hindu terror or Saffron terror if any should be referred to openly and proudly as an indication that Hindus too have balls in addition to feelings, rather than this mumblemumble "don't criticise me I am so good" defensive attitude that i see. If Hindus don't have the balls to fight and openly declare that they have fought, are fighting and will fight for what is their right then no one is going to hand it to them.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby gakakkad » 30 Dec 2011 20:18

i prefer to be more subtle . Like the innuendo "pre 2002" . Those islamo-fascist areas are relics of history now in Gujarat.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby brihaspati » 30 Dec 2011 20:24

shiv wrote:Brihaspati hatred of the Congress is one thing but imagining that a non Congress government could have done XY and Z is a problem thought process. History records it that my aunt was not male and hence was my aunt, not uncle, and similarly Congress is in power, not someone else. What we need to look at is not to say "Congress should have done this" , but "Now that Congress has done this how do we move forward. Removing the Congress from power is not going to solve the Pakistan problem magically although I would welcome being told that I am an idiot for saying that on this forum if that happens.

If the attacks on the Congress party on this thread are a sort of sideways "electoral wishing well" on this forum it constitutes a deviation from the topic of the thread and it is odd that the topic is brought up most frequently by people who have more power to change things in the USA than in India.


If you mean me - as a hater of congrez - than that will not be accurate. My bringing up the congrez angle in this thread - was solely in the context of preservation of Pakistan. Two posts I have made - try to explain as to why one should not single out MMS, as well as why it is futile and deceptive to push for the "talking/engagement" line and somehow wishing that Pak will fail on its own.

I have only tried to explain as to why no congrez regime will do anything that systematically undermines Pakistan towards its eventual complete erasure. I rarely discuss electoral strategies for the future or change of government. It is also not relevant for this thread.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Dec 2011 20:59

A totally dumbo question and partly off topic too. If India had a belligerent relationship with Pakistan, would Australia have agreed to sell uranium to India? To ask it another way, what is the effect of India's pat-a-cake with Pakistan on its relations with other nations, and overall advancement of India? Or is it really all driven by vote bank politics? If so, are there any recent surveys of Indian Muslim opinion of Pakistan, where it ranks in the issues they will vote about? What is the basis of this narrative?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Vivek_A » 30 Dec 2011 21:05

surinder wrote: Like they sold the US heli to PRC this year near Kakul.


What heli? You mean the tail section?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby arun » 30 Dec 2011 21:07

Green on Green violence in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan as one variant of Mohammadden takes on another variant of Mohammadden over differences in the practice of the Mohammadden religion.

In KarachI:

Sectarian killings claim two lives in Karachi

In Khairpur:

Violence: Sectarian clash leaves Khairpur a ghost town

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Suppiah » 30 Dec 2011 21:08

I dont think we can generalise as 'kaangress' because there has been many kaangresses...Indira Gandhi, Maino dynasty, Nehru, PNVR and so on..now MMSji.

Ignoring the past and focussing on present, I think MMS has head and heart screwed right, as several steps vis-a-vis China show clearly. What is worrying is the current dynasty striking deals with Beijing puppet Stalinists in exchange for support and surrender to TSPA/PRC cabal in the name of 'peace'. Which is why Stalinist rapist goon puppet yellow journalists, some of whom have been given on lease to the dynasty to serve their propaganda purposes, are shouting from rooftop about peace with TSP on TSP's terms essentially on Beijing's terms, which involve preserving TSPA's capability to wage jihad even as we happily go around saying everything is normal.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby pankajs » 30 Dec 2011 21:17

Car bomb at politician's home kills 9 in Pakistan
(AP) QUETTA, Pakistan — Police say a car bomb has exploded outside the home of a local politician in southwest Pakistan, killing at least nine people.

Police officer Nazir Ahmed Kurd says Friday's blast in an upscale neighborhood in Quetta also wounded 21 people. It was unclear if the politician, Shafique Mengal, was home at the time.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby gakakkad » 30 Dec 2011 21:17

A_Gupta wrote:A totally dumbo question and partly off topic too. If India had a belligerent relationship with Pakistan, would Australia have agreed to sell uranium to India? To ask it another way, what is the effect of India's pat-a-cake with Pakistan on its relations with other nations, and overall advancement of India? Or is it really all driven by vote bank politics? If so, are there any recent surveys of Indian Muslim opinion of Pakistan, where it ranks in the issues they will vote about? What is the basis of this narrative?




Yup , they would have sold India the Uranium. They are only after the money. India is the 2nd fastest growing major economy will soon become the fastest and will remain so for decades. In a few years time , we ll be adding an Australia to our economy every few months . Thereafter , every few weeks.

ASSstralia has tremendous debt problems. Needs money. Does not care 2 cents if about bums.

If you think , that the N-deal was due to India's peacefulness then you are mistaken . It was due to the rapid growing economic ,and the sense of inevitability that India is the biggest dog of 21st century.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby pankajs » 30 Dec 2011 21:19

Pakistan court orders 'memogate' inquiry
Pakistan's Supreme Court has set up an inquiry into a controversial unsigned memo that asked for US help in curbing the powers of the military.

The court said a panel of four high court judges would conclude its findings within a month.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Suppiah » 30 Dec 2011 21:26

The latest demonstration of Pakistani IEDology happens in Quetta...720 virgins are required to line up..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Dec 2011 21:38

gakakkad wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:A totally dumbo question and partly off topic too. If India had a belligerent relationship with Pakistan, would Australia have agreed to sell uranium to India? To ask it another way, what is the effect of India's pat-a-cake with Pakistan on its relations with other nations, and overall advancement of India? Or is it really all driven by vote bank politics? If so, are there any recent surveys of Indian Muslim opinion of Pakistan, where it ranks in the issues they will vote about? What is the basis of this narrative?




Yup , they would have sold India the Uranium. They are only after the money. India is the 2nd fastest growing major economy will soon become the fastest and will remain so for decades. In a few years time , we ll be adding an Australia to our economy every few months . Thereafter , every few weeks.

ASSstralia has tremendous debt problems. Needs money. Does not care 2 cents if about bums.

If you think , that the N-deal was due to India's peacefulness then you are mistaken . It was due to the rapid growing economic ,and the sense of inevitability that India is the biggest dog of 21st century.


Should I discount all that you say because your statement of Australian debt is totally off the mark?
http://www.theworld.org/2011/07/austral ... able-debt/

or Fareed Zakaria on Australia (and Samoa)
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com ... mber-30th/

PS: Likewise on the money:

Uranium export is approximately a billion-dollar industry; even optimistic projections of its growth would bring it to perhaps $1.7 billion (AUD) by 2014.19 This can be contrasted with, for instance, iron ore exports, anticipated to reach a record total value of $63 billion (AUD) in 2011


(from the paper linked here:
http://www.aii.unimelb.edu.au/news/aust ... ssia-india )
Last edited by A_Gupta on 30 Dec 2011 21:55, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Suppiah » 30 Dec 2011 21:38

A_Gupta wrote: Or is it really all driven by vote bank politics? .... What is the basis of this narrative?


The issue is not whether someone votes for something, the issue is someone thinks they can make some people vote by doing certain things. Real voting trends and intentions are never known, let alone predicted.

But I agree, the vote bank angle is not the key driver here. But it is a driver because of ummah-wide impact, its blowback on IM, etc. IMHO ummah would not care as there are enough conflicts within itself.

As to uranium etc., the drivers are again different. India's economic ascendancy and closer strategic ties to US FWIW, is the key driver. After all, OZ is the pet poodle of Unkil in this part of the world.

Given the way ABV too talked of 'your sweet sweeter than my sweet' and held back after the Parliament attack, the fundamental issue seems to be that strategic/military advisers are telling the PM of the day, whoever that be, that a short and sweet victory is unlikely before world intervenes and the cost to economy are likely to be disproportionate to the benefit when hostilities stop, and hence it is better to wait for a few more years. Also TSP seems to be doing pretty good job self-destructing. It is also entirely possible that Gilani/PPP/Duspercenti are requesting India to let them fix the TSPA/ISI cabal and return to some sense of normality. I would believe that if a few more evidence is thrown to public - such as perhaps dead body of Dawood.

Whether they are right or wrong is another story..
Last edited by Suppiah on 30 Dec 2011 21:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby pankajs » 30 Dec 2011 21:40

No early polls, govt will finish its term: Gilani
From Rezaul H Laskar Islamabad, Dec 30 (PTI) Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, whose government has been rocked by a series of crises, today dismissed any chance of early polls, saying the next general election would be held as scheduled in 2013. The government will follow the constitutional and due legal process to hold the next general election, Gilani told reporters on the sidelines of an official event in his hometown of Multan. "Some have-nots wish to become haves and they talk of elections. But they don't know that we will act according to the law and constitution. We are moving according to the consensus in parliament," he said. Asked about relations between President Asif Ali Zardari and army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, Gilani said, "Their relations are very good". He rejected media reports that he had "begged" the army chief to accept a three-year extension in service last year, and said there was confusion on the issue due to the English translation of his remarks in Urdu. Gilani said the coalition government led by the Pakistan People's Party is stable and all political parties have agreed that the parliament should complete its tenure. The hue and cry for early polls was aimed at sabotaging elections to the Senate or upper house of parliament scheduled for March, he contended. The PPP-led government has faced pressure from the powerful security establishment in recent weeks over an alleged memo that sought US help to stave off a possible military takeover in Pakistan after the killing of Osama bin Laden in May.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby arun » 30 Dec 2011 21:41

Suppiah wrote:The latest demonstration of Pakistani IEDology happens in Quetta...720 virgins are required to line up..



A link to go with that demonstration of the IEDology of Pakistan:

Blast kills ten, injures dozens in Quetta

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby pankajs » 30 Dec 2011 21:44

PM opens Yusuf Raza Gilani Flyover
MULTAN, Dec 30 (APP): Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani on Froday opened a Rs 1.596 billion Yusuf Raza Gilani Flyover recently built at Boman Ji Chowk here on Friday.

Is this real?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Dec 2011 21:45

Moderators, it would be unfair to allow X on a thread, but not a response to X.

Brihaspati wrote: "Personal power hunger of the second scion of the founding line, led to acceptance of Partition".

That would have to include personal power hunger of Sardar Patel as well. Many sources can be cited, but Wiki is convenient. I am sorry, Brihaspati, but facts are facts, and they contradict your personal version of history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vallabhbha ... _partition
Wiki on Sardar Patel:

Vallabhbhai Patel was one of the first Congress leaders to accept the partition of India as a solution to the rising Muslim separatist movement led by Muhammad Ali Jinnah. He had been outraged by Jinnah's Direct Action campaign, which had provoked communal violence across India and by the viceroy's vetoes of his home department's plans to stop the violence on the grounds of constitutionality. Patel severely criticised the viceroy's induction of League ministers into the government, and the revalidation of the grouping scheme by the British without Congress approval. Although further outraged at the League's boycott of the assembly and non-acceptance of the plan of 16 May despite entering government, he was also aware that Jinnah did enjoy popular support amongst Muslims, and that an open conflict between him and the nationalists could degenerate into a Hindu-Muslim civil war of disastrous consequences. The continuation of a divided and weak central government would in Patel's mind, result in the wider fragmentation of India by encouraging more than 600 princely states towards independence.[44] Between the months of December 1946 and January 1947, Patel worked with civil servant V. P. Menon on the latter's suggestion for a separate dominion of Pakistan created out of Muslim-majority provinces. Communal violence in Bengal and Punjab in January and March 1947 further convinced Patel of the soundness of partition. Patel, a fierce critic of Jinnah's demand that the Hindu-majority areas of Punjab and Bengal be included in a Muslim state, obtained the partition of those provinces, thus blocking any possibility of their inclusion in Pakistan. Patel's decisiveness on the partition of Punjab and Bengal had won him many supporters and admirers amongst the Indian public, which had tired of the League's tactics, but he was criticised by Gandhi, Nehru, secular Muslims and socialists for a perceived eagerness to do so.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby svinayak » 30 Dec 2011 21:46

CRamS wrote:
amit wrote:
Now regarding what CRS calls "love-making" with Pakistan, you gotta understand that unless you're an isolationist country like N Korea you cannot freeze all relations with your biggest neighbour because such a foreign policy move follows the law of diminishing returns, something which I suspect the govt realised after the freeze following 26/11. If you can't put a permanent end to this pest you gotta keep talking to it.


Some good points above, but some fine-tuning is needed from me :-).

My friend, equal equal is going to be there no matter what. I agree, in the absence of the ability to score a comprehensive hit over TSP, discretion is the better part of valor. That said, there have got to be red lines. Equal equal simply cannot be accepted beyond a certain point or else the "world" that you talk about, for whom Indian interests hardly exist, will only push the goal post further & further.


India is the most open country out there and actually it is more open than needed with everybody thinking that they can meddle with Indians. India has been too friendly with criminal states.
West and US have been mocking Indians and have supported Paks when Paks fights with Indians. That is not a reason for India to keep a normal relations with Pak. Indian reaction is watched by Americans when they see any headline news about Pak.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby gakakkad » 30 Dec 2011 21:48

Should I discount all that you say because your statement of Australian debt is totally off the mark?

"Australia Has Highest Household Debt to Disposable Income Ratio in World"

http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/austra ... 010/02/03/

Anyway a asstralians are the white arabs . Selling natural resources is just about all they do. They have to sell some to Yindia.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby abhijitm » 30 Dec 2011 21:48

amit wrote:you gotta understand that unless you're an isolationist country like N Korea you cannot freeze all relations with your biggest neighbour because such a foreign policy move follows the law of diminishing returns, something which I suspect the govt realised after the freeze following 26/11.

amit, what diminishing returns India had to endure during the freeze following 26/11? Pakistan is a disease and in my opinion we must refrain from getting closer to avoid diminishing returns. be it talks, economic exchanges etc etc. With pakistan, strictly no no.

The fact is, they need us much more than we need them. And whatever GoI is doing is nothing but a goodwill gesture, which is completely unnecessary given that those b&*#rds are continuing their hostile attitude towards us.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Suppiah » 30 Dec 2011 21:49



Yes he is PM for life.. :rotfl: and so is Duspercenti..President for life.. :rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby JE Menon » 30 Dec 2011 21:52

BBC is reporting some sort of family vendetta has resulted in burning of one family of 14 in entirety (or something like that)...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby pankajs » 30 Dec 2011 21:56

PM says he requested, did not beg, generals to stay put
Earlier, in a press talk with newsmen, in a reply to question, the prime minister said he had never pleaded to Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani to get extension in tenure but made a request to him as the general cannot be changed in the middle of war. “The request did not mean pleading,” he said.


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