Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 2011

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Altair
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Altair » 13 Jan 2012 20:55

^^What kind of self respecting leader of a self respecting country would call other leaders to save his chaddi?
:rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Jan 2012 21:30

^^^ one that holds a loaded nuke to its own head and threatens to blow everyone up

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby rajanb » 13 Jan 2012 21:39

^^^ Provided it is not an ISI plant. Let us not forget what TSPA/ISI has done to us.

I would anyday prefer the ZeeGee Clowns to the Pashkiya-nahi combine. :twisted:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby ramana » 13 Jan 2012 22:08

MMS actions towards TSP are driven by two things:

Proximity to an unstable nuke armed failed state. This is like one says "Easy there!" while approaching a mad cap. Could have used harsher words.

Second Muppalla has said already on this. All I would add is India does what it wants to do and if that aligns with US then it appears to be listening to them. Example India signed the Security pact with Afghanistan despite drumroll from US playing the TSP tune to not sign it.

As Muppalla points out despite best efforts of US and half hearted efforts by India, TSP is and will fail due to the inherent contradictions in its composition. Its ideology is revanchist and a throwback to an era when people didn't count and one could rule by claiming "obey" and have the goon squad to kill the opponents. Mankind has moved beyond that. The centuries of porgress in human thinking have made all that obsolete and passe.

Same way as the US inherited empire and soon the idea of nation state which was to bring peace to Western Europe suffering from splits in the Roman Catholic Church. When Church is itself passing will the tools to reduce friction still needed?

Yes some form of nation/sovereignity for control and civic amenties will be needed but not this form of Westphalian state.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby abhijitm » 13 Jan 2012 22:12

West has given more love and bakshish to pakistan whenever army ruled that country, then why kayanahi is not ending this democracy circus and do what he is destined to do?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Hiten » 13 Jan 2012 22:17

is there any truth to this quote?

"Pakistan is like a beautiful woman who should sell herself to the highest bidder" ~ Lt. General Habibullah Khan Khattak, Pakistan Army
Last edited by Hiten on 13 Jan 2012 22:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby ramana » 13 Jan 2012 22:22

abhijitm wrote:West has given more love and bakshish to pakistan whenever army ruled that country, then why kayanahi is not ending this democracy circus and do what he is destined to do?


Two reasons. The financial collapse of 2008 and the long time for recovery has made the coffers empty.
Second the people don't want to pay for countries that support terrorists against them.Not all people are like Indians who dont mind supporting people who harbor terrorists.

So difficult to give baksheesh/dole to dictators when own economy is in doldrums.

Yet the US scrapes together enough to keep the TSPA in business and gives weapons for use against India.

Hiten, The bad Jernail lies as usual. Passing of his memories of Hira Mandi as his country.

Also he should be w-e-cutlet for calling the Islamic State a woman! But then he is Pathan(Khattak) like Imran bhai!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby pankajs » 13 Jan 2012 22:49

Pakistan uses militants as strategic assets
ISLAMABAD, January 12, 2012 - Pakistan has cultivated militant and terrorist groups, making them ‘strategic assets’ in hopes of using them to maintain stability in the region and balance relations with India, Iran, Afghanistan and now the United States.
To counter the traditional military strength of India, Pakistan uses its militant and terrorist groups. Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), a Pakistan-backed militant group, conducted attacks on Mumbai on 26 November 2008, killing more than a hundred people and injuring hundred others. The group is also operational in its Jehadi activities in Indian occupied Kashmir. One of its main goals is to eradicate Indian occupation of Kashmir.
In order to limit the effects of revolution in Iran and to stop it from reaching Pakistan, many militant and terrorist groups of the Sunni Muslim sect operate to contain Shiite encroachment into the country. With the help of these groups, Pakistan hopes to stop Shiite Islam from gaining power in Pakistan. Sipah-e-Sihaba is the main Sunni organization involved in anti-Shiite activities. Lashkar-e-Jhangvi is another militant organization which seeks to curb Shiites influence in Pakistan. Both these organizations are believed to be veritable arms of Pakistani Spy agencies, which controls and directs the organizations to counter the Shiite muslim activities and sever ties between Pakistani Shiites and Iran.
Afghanistan is fighting a war against the Taliban militants with the help of the United States and NATO. Pakistan is supporting the Taliban covertly in an attempt to extend its influence over the Afghani government. Pakistan has actively conducted operations in Afghanistan since 1979, when the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan. Pakistan, with the help of the United States and Saudi Arabia, assisted the Afghan Mujahedeen in its fight against the Communist U.S.S.R for a decade, until Russia left Afghanistan in 1989.
Pakistan believes that the United States wants to divide Pakistan into several small states, as happened with Yugoslavia. The Pakistan leadership worries that the U.S. will blame Pakistan for any attack on U.S. soil, regardless of the true culprits, and use it as an excuse to launch an attack against Pakistan. Islamabad also believes that the precedent of U.S. actions in Iraq and Libya suggest Washington will not hesitate to invade the country if its interests are threatened.

America, on the other hand, believes that Al-Qaeda terrorists live in far flung areas of Pakistan and can use those safe-havens to plan attacks against U.S. interests. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has threatened Pakistan several times that if any new attack by terrorists occurs on American soil, the U.S. will deal harshly with those who harbor terrorists.

The shrewd military leadership of Pakistan created Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) to protect itself from U.S. actions. The main function of TTP was to destroy western interests in Pakistan, to eliminate unwanted politician who had connections with the West, and to give an impression to the west that Pakistan itself is suffering from terrorist attacks and cannot be blamed for terrorism abroad. If Pakistan can make West believe in the TTP conspiracy, it will help Pakistan not only gaining Western sympathies but also to gain impunity from responsibility to any future attacks on European and American soils.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby ramana » 13 Jan 2012 23:04

There is fundamental confusion in above letter to Wash Post.

The TSPA supports terrorists. And terrorists are not strategic assets only tactical assets.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby svinayak » 13 Jan 2012 23:06

ramana wrote: abhijitm" West has given more love and bakshish to pakistan whenever army ruled that country, then why kayanahi is not ending this democracy circus and do what he is destined to do?

Two reasons. The financial collapse of 2008 and the long time for recovery has made the coffers empty.
Second the people don't want to pay for countries that support terrorists against them.Not all people are like Indians who dont mind supporting people who harbor terrorists.

So difficult to give baksheesh/dole to dictators when own economy is in doldrums.

Yet the US scrapes together enough to keep the TSPA in business and gives weapons for use against India.

The deal after Mushy was thrown out in 2008 was that Democracy was to be given a chance. One amirkhan connected to agencies told me that Pak should be given a chance. The money was to be given only if democracy is shown to be working. Else if the military rule comes in then it will be cut off. This threat was never there like this in earlier decades for the PA.

If this continues then PA may take a other ways such as war in the eastern border

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby anishns » 13 Jan 2012 23:49

Rajasthan offers help to ailing India-born Mehdi Hassan

The government in India's Rajasthan state has offered to help to ailing Pakistani singer Mehdi Hassan if he wants treatment in India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby pankajs » 13 Jan 2012 23:59

Where there's nobody home
If Pakistan were not home to the largest collection of terrorists in the world, possessor of a nuclear weapons arsenal and right next door to India, its present political contortions could almost pass as comical. In which country would a president fly overseas to attend a wedding at the height of a constitutional crisis?

Unfortunately, Pakistani politics is no laughing matter because it is the most visible symptom of the deeper malaise that afflicts the country. The present crisis has revealed all the known flaws in the Pakistani political system, but in greater relief than before. One, a military that refuses to allow any civilian leadership to genuinely run the country; Two, a polity where institutions are so weak that personalities and personality clashes are all that matters. In this case, the character of the Supreme Court justice is arguably the most decisive issue. Third, a leadership that lacks the internal coherence to find compromises. Hence the propensity of Pakistani interest groups to seek the interference of outside powers, whether the United States, Saudi Arabia and increasingly China. Four, an electorate where feudal interests still dominate.

Political parties can be created overnight by anyone with sufficient money. And the list goes on. There can be little argument that the Pakistan military is largely responsible for this state of affairs. The military has worked assiduously to ensure that the civilian political leadership is weak and that the institutions of government are ineffective. It has intervened so often that Pakistan has never been able to have two civilian governments hand power to each other through an election. The men in khaki have a single motive: to ensure that they are the final authority in all matters in Pakistan. The present crisis shows that this policy is now delivering decreasing returns.

The army may be unhappy with the present civilian leadership, but it is also unable and unwilling to take over itself. The civilians, on the other hand, are using tricks taken from the army’s own shelf including trying to divide the corps commanders, use foreign governments and claiming the military is too close to America. The result is the present chaos where the military is trying to stage a constitutional coup through the courts. The president is trying to stage a coup within the military. And the Supreme Court is simply out to settle scores on behalf of its chief justice. The final tragedy is that there are few things going right in Pakistan: its western provinces are in flames, its exchequer is empty, it is still reeling from the effects of last year’s floods and its internal social problems are mounting. But its leadership is playing musical chairs to a tune solely of their own making.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2012 00:06

Its a PRC and US problem that TSP was given nukes in 1980s and they were not removed once Cold War was over in 1988. India always was under the threat since then. For India it doesn't matter whether the TSPA or the jihadis out of uniform have the nukes.
However now the donors are under threat from the jihadis too. In a way Bhasmasura wants to ryo out his gift on the donors.
Hence the trying to rope in India to be helpful in reducing their threat perception.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Anujan » 14 Jan 2012 00:26

Altair wrote:^^What kind of self respecting leader of a self respecting country would call other leaders to save his chaddi?
:rotfl:

He is appealing to UK to protect Pakistan's sovirginity.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Prem » 14 Jan 2012 00:30

Anujan wrote:
Altair wrote:^^What kind of self respecting leader of a self respecting country would call other leaders to save his chaddi?
:rotfl:

He is appealing to UK to protect Pakistan's sovirginity.


He should call MMS :lol: who can do more for this whore without laggaying jorre and machaying shoorre.
Let MMS announced a visit to Nankana Sahib along with 200k Body guards carrying havy equipments.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Abhijit » 14 Jan 2012 00:31

A thought occurred to me recently. One of the byproducts (possibly intended by the Chankian part of the South Block, if it does exist) of India's continued bhaichara with the pakis despite the gravest of provocations is that the jihadi side has slowly shifted its Islamic hate towards the Unkil more than the cowardly Yindoos. If India had maintained a continuous hostile posture, the jihadis would have had less reason to turn their guns against Unkil and PA would have easily channeled the jihadis energies entirely towards India. So the Chankian calculation would be, If paki jihadis started with absolute and single-minded hatred of India and Yindoos, why not give them a chance to hate somebody else by not doing something that would concentrate their India hatred?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby pankajs » 14 Jan 2012 00:39

Fearing instability, Chinese companies rethink Pakistan investments
A number of Chinese companies are rethinking their investments in Pakistan amid rising political instability and growing fears over the security of Chinese personnel, according to mining firms working in the country.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Nandu » 14 Jan 2012 00:48

rajanb wrote:
One way the civvies can strike back is to petition the SC to investigate the death of the journalist Saleem Shahzad? I think the civvies have enough to create a stand off, if they have the guts.

I don't see how this can possibly work as a counter measure by Zardari and Co. SC is clearly allied with the army and will not do anything to help Zardari out.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Nandu » 14 Jan 2012 00:54

arunsrinivasan wrote:n00b question, why is the Judiciary support the Army? Is it just a case of justice is blind, which I find hard to believe.

Personal vendetta against Zardari because he didn't back the CJ when he was trying to claw back his kursi after being sacked by gola.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2012 01:19

Abhijit wrote:A thought occurred to me recently. One of the byproducts (possibly intended by the Chankian part of the South Block, if it does exist) of India's continued bhaichara with the pakis despite the gravest of provocations is that the jihadi side has slowly shifted its Islamic hate towards the Unkil more than the cowardly Yindoos. If India had maintained a continuous hostile posture, the jihadis would have had less reason to turn their guns against Unkil and PA would have easily channeled the jihadis energies entirely towards India. So the Chankian calculation would be, If paki jihadis started with absolute and single-minded hatred of India and Yindoos, why not give them a chance to hate somebody else by not doing something that would concentrate their India hatred?



I did comment on this before. It was OP Vijay in Kargil and Op Parakram that reflected the jihadi terrorism way back into TSP not just baicharaa etc. Cowardly terrorists will go after baichaara with even more vigor.
The blowback on the West was even before this as a simple timeline will show from 9/11/2001.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby KLNMurthy » 14 Jan 2012 02:04

ramana wrote:There is fundamental confusion in above letter to Wash Post.

The TSPA supports terrorists. And terrorists are not strategic assets only tactical assets.

There is a strategic element to it, as in, "give kashmir lest you see more mumbai-like attacks, then we can have mfn and peace."

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Anujan » 14 Jan 2012 03:54

It suddenly stuck me that there is more behind the Supreme court declaring that Groper and Zardari have disobeyed the Koran.

Note that according to Paki constitution, only A "Good Muslim of Good standing" can hold constitutional office. If they disobeyed the Koran, they are bad muslims and that constitutionally disqualifies them. Will be interesting to see if the court takes this route to bypass Zardari's immunity from being prosecuted and simply disqualify him for being a bad muslim.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby ramana » 14 Jan 2012 03:56

So are they Justices or Kazis?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Rangudu » 14 Jan 2012 03:58

^^ Anujan,

Come on bhai - that was exactly the intent behind that Supreme Court decision. Although Gilani was the first intended target. They still want someone to turn approver so that they can nail Zardari with a legal cover.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Anujan » 14 Jan 2012 04:06

^^
Well, the naive me thought that they will order re-opening of swiss cases, Groper/Zardari will refuse, and they will declare them ineligible to hold office for refusing to comply to a supreme court judgement. Then I was confused, because that doesnt compute -- Groper is the head of a separate branch of government and Zardari enjoys immunity from prosecution while in office. So the SC cannot order them to do anything.

I thought the "disobeying the Koran" was a separate thing, playing to the gallery and religious parties and adopting a holier than thou position.

Sadly, I was thinking too straight and clean.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Prem » 14 Jan 2012 04:33

General Asshphuk Kayani: vital to the Sino-Pak nexus
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012\01\14\story_14-1-2012_pg3_6
( PeeArrC knows the time of transition from Guboraat to Koopraat.)

In support of his statement he said that he ‘begged’ — subsequently changed to ‘requested’ — the two chiefs to accept extensions of their normal three-year tenure of service for another three years in the case of the chief of army staff (COAS) and one-plus-one (one year each at a time in 2010 and 2011) to the DG ISI. The PM’s interview with the Chinese daily changed the whole situation materially.
By an uncanny coincidence just less than a week before Mr Gilani’s shockingly bad chit to the two chiefs, Premier Wen Jiabao was having a one-on-one meeting with the visiting Pakistan army chief at Zhongnanhai in Beijing. The meeting turned out to be much more than a mere courtesy call for its 75-minute duration and the wide range of subjects of mutual Sino-Pak interest discussed.As the guest of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), General Kayani would normally have had little to do with China’s chief executive except for a brief courtesy call and a photo op. The extended exchange of views bearing practically on all the important aspects of the Pak-China relationship was exceptional and a real show of importance attaching personally to General Kayani.Premier Wen Jiabao assured General Kayani that as a “true and steadfast friend of Pakistan”, China would continue to “safeguard its sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity, maintain its national dignity and back the country’s economic growth”. Words uttered so forcibly as to surpass even a formal diplomatic protocol or pact.
Such unqualified assurances of help and support are normally extended to heads of state and governments rather than to visiting army chiefs.General Kayani thanked Premier Wen Jiabao for his generous assurances and his country’s ‘consistent’ support to Pakistan’s “sovereignty, territorial integrity as well faster economic development and social stability”. Such an extended exchange of sentiments and notes between a premier and a visiting army chief is certainly out of the ordinary.Premier Wen Jiabao spoke at length of the “complex and evolving regional and global situation” stressing the need for “closer and strengthened coordination” between the two countries. General Kayani for his part assured the Chinese premier of ‘unswervingly’ boosting cooperation with China and ‘firmly’ supporting China’s effort to maintain its ‘core interests’.The Chinese premier expressed his appreciation of the ‘important contribution’ the Pakistan armed forces had made towards boosting China-Pakistan ‘strategic cooperation and partnership’
.General Kayani also spent a busy time with the deputy Chief of General Staff General Liang Guanglie on a wide rage of subjects pertaining to bilateral defence cooperation issues.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shaardula » 14 Jan 2012 06:09

my two paisas. all these top guys in tsp are feudals, barring death nothing else is going to change for them.

what if all this is just shenanigans to wipe the slate just about clean to re-engage massa? more of smoke and mirrors is what this looks like to me. do some stunts, replace one disposable idiot with another, tell massa, those were old times and those people, new people now, bliss to get back to charity.

honestly, has there been any difference between any of the sundry feudals that have been at helm in TSP? every single one of them is the same.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby SBajwa » 14 Jan 2012 06:14



Watch Amjad Khan portrying Wajid Ali Shah of Awadh describing his army. It reminds me of today's napakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Satya_anveshi » 14 Jan 2012 06:31

Not sure if this was posted

Part 3 of Hamid Mir interview with Zardari on Jan 7th, 2012
(specifically starts with question on Zardari's view of Indian involvement in Baluchistan, to which, he responds with "No Comments" and then the discussion follows on Memogate)

Interested folks can watch Part 1 and 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90RGsP24 ... ure=relmfu

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Satya_anveshi » 14 Jan 2012 06:42

got to give it to Hamid Mir...guy does make every interview interesting.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 14 Jan 2012 07:20

Abhijit wrote:A thought occurred to me recently. One of the byproducts (possibly intended by the Chankian part of the South Block, if it does exist) of India's continued bhaichara with the pakis despite the gravest of provocations is that the jihadi side has slowly shifted its Islamic hate towards the Unkil more than the cowardly Yindoos. If India had maintained a continuous hostile posture, the jihadis would have had less reason to turn their guns against Unkil and PA would have easily channeled the jihadis energies entirely towards India.


I believe this is exactly what India has done and have said so on this forum. But I am not sure that it required any great chankianness - the option must have become pretty obvious to anyone who was following Pakistan closely - like diplomats and intel agencies and by extension the government.

Pakistani spokesperson have openly stated that they yearn for a return to Pakistan's finest hour in 1965 when the entire nation stood united against big bad India. From time to time - whenever there has been a crisis involving India , Pakistanis have actually buried their differences and put up a united front. It is only when India lies low that Pakistan's internal squabbles come to the fore.

This is also why it was stated by many respected and respectable Indian analysts that both the parliament attack and 26/11 were operations that sought to engineer a crisis with India, uniting all Pakis and making donors like the US "see the light" that India is the main problem. There is actually a social split within Pakistan. People are not necessarily very happy with things in Pakistan but can be swayed by the "India threat". If the India threat goes the army and whole lot of other vested interest in Pakistan lose out.

But for Indian leaders in an increasingly powerful India, it is politically difficult to deliberately go soft on Pakistan and risk the wrath of an angry Indian population baying for blood. Any political leader who declared war on Pakistan would have got instant popularity in 2002 and 2008. The cursing of GoI as "weak", "spineless", "cowardice" etc stems from this "chankian" action of going soft on Pakistan. But it had better work

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 14 Jan 2012 07:24

Anujan wrote:It suddenly stuck me that there is more behind the Supreme court declaring that Groper and Zardari have disobeyed the Koran.

Note that according to Paki constitution, only A "Good Muslim of Good standing" can hold constitutional office. If they disobeyed the Koran, they are bad muslims and that constitutionally disqualifies them. Will be interesting to see if the court takes this route to bypass Zardari's immunity from being prosecuted and simply disqualify him for being a bad muslim.


I think even Pakis are beginning to understand that they use the Quran like others use condoms. Pakistanis pick up and quote the Quran when they feel like it or leave it lying around handily when they don't intend to screw anyone immediately.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby SBajwa » 14 Jan 2012 07:27

If the India threat goes the army and whole lot of other vested interest in Pakistan lose out.


That is a very wise information that I learned today!!!! Thanks Doc!!!


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby KLNMurthy » 14 Jan 2012 08:01

SBajwa wrote:
If the India threat goes the army and whole lot of other vested interest in Pakistan lose out.


That is a very wise information that I learned today!!!! Thanks Doc!!!

Don't know if you are being serious but I think shiv's statement deserves closer analysis to understand under what(if any) circumstances it could be true.

The reason I say that is that Indian policy elite is glib, self-satisfied and hidebound in its analysis and understanding. Part of the problem is institutional inertia. Here on BRF we are basically lightweights of various calibers. Meaning among other thing that we don't have institutional heft. We should at least try to take advantage of the lightness by doing closer interrogation and refinement of our own analyses and underlying premises.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby krishnan » 14 Jan 2012 08:16

Image

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 14 Jan 2012 08:31

Great article, and a keeper


The one below is utter trash:
Pakistan uses militants as strategic assets

The author does not know, or ignores the fact that Pakis created the Taliban and talks as if the Taliban were a pre-existing phenomenon of whom the Pakis "chose" to support one "faction"
After the expulsion of Russia, Pakistan wanted a pro-Pakistan government in Kabul. However, a civil war broke in Afghanistan and Pakistan decided to support the pro-Islamabad Taliban.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby johneeG » 14 Jan 2012 08:53

The argument that Jihadis have turned on themselves because India lied low seems wrong to me.

The first point would be what stops Jihadis from going after India, if India will lie low regardless of provocation? The answer, to me, seems to be that they have a more important, and urgent threat at home in the form of US and a PA, that carries out US' directives.

However, there is another important point which is that India(read MMS) may not be able to restrain in the face of another grave provocation. Pakis know they narrowly escaped war after 26/11. They also know that in any conflict, the world is not going to be very sympathetic to pakis. Even in US, there may be debates as to whether letting pakis be dealt with India is really that bad. This realisation that another bigger mischief may not go unpunished, is stopping Pakis from making brazen attacks on India. Even US has publicly pronounced that another attack on India may make it difficult even for MMS to restraint.

Jihadis have always shown that they go after the weaker target and avoid the stronger target. Ironically, US is the weaker target right now. 'Weaker' simply means a target that will not retaliate(offensively). However, even the US seems to have had enough of it. Even then, US is still weaker target than India. US is also the more vital target because it is directly playing in pakistan. So, US presents an immediate threat and is also a weaker target. Earlier, this position was occupied by India.

Also, the refrain that pakis will be united, if India makes a move, is also to be verified. The basic point is why have pakis not united against US? Because of PA. PA cannot afford to go completely against US. It maybe one of the reasons for trying to shift their loyalties to China so that they can afford to make a clear stand against US. But, there is another point, PA is also the reason why US has been unable to make deals with the Jihadis(perhaps, including Haqqanis). Because PA cannot afford to be out of a loop where US directly makes deals with Jihadis. So, why PA not facilitating the deals? Because PA will not give up its 'assets'(terrorists).

So, it is the confused situation of PA that has made a pakistan into a mess. A country like Pakistan with its inherent contradictions, poverty and huge regional fault-lines needs a strong controlling power. PA has fulfilled this role all this time, but now PA not able to do this because it unable to go one way or the other. It has tried to hunt with hounds and run with hares. Such things cannot work for long time and now the tension of playing too many sides is showing.

The general option that PA avails in these circumstances is a skirmish with India. Lot of hype and hoopla, but no war. But this option is not so easily available this time perhaps because India will not(and cannot) be restrained. Because the Indian public was restrained by complex gymnastics after 26/11 and those tricks may not work second time around.

So, to summarize the reasons for jihadis turning on each other are:
a) US presence in Pak and Astan.
b) Realisation that India may not be restrained faced with another grave provocation.
c) PA in a confused state i.e unable to decide whether to ditch US or continue to be its 'ally'.
d) Jihadis' tendency to go after the weaker target(non-retaliating target) which in this case is US.
e) US starting to show signs that it will not be a weaker target anymore.
f) The general inherent contradictions within pakistan call for a strong controlling hand(the role PA is unable to perform right now).
g) The growing radicalization within PA has cut down the ski-down options of its COAS.
h) A long war in and around pak has disillusioned the pakis(including jihadis) of PA's mythical powers.
Last edited by johneeG on 14 Jan 2012 09:06, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 14 Jan 2012 09:05

JohneeG - do you believe that the "jihadis" are different from the Pakistan army? Would you be able to name a few jihadi groups who are going against the Pakistan army? I would classify the Lashkar e Toiba as a jihadi group. The LeT is not going against the Pakistan army. It is a branch of the Pakistan army. The Haqqani faction and the Quetta shura are all allies of the Pakistan army. Hamid Gul a known advisor and sympathiser of the "jihadi" groups, is on record saying that "the jihadis" would join together and support the Pakistan army of India were to attack. The original YouTube videos exist and are in Urdu, but here is an excerpt - that has subtitles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw3VqBt7aKA


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