Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 2011

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Lalmohan » 19 Dec 2011 14:10

i am sure he does understand the plan, someone must have given him confidence to return...

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10086
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby sum » 19 Dec 2011 14:14

^^ Like BB was given?

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24121
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby SSridhar » 19 Dec 2011 14:18

I do not believe that anybody can guarantee anything in Pakistan. But, Zardari might have returned on his own volition for two reasons. Firstly, he may not want to appear as running away from Pakistan because that might adversely affect son Bilawal who is waiting to assume the Chair. Secondly, this will enhance his image, at least among the jiyalas, so that when he departs permanently to the US soon on medical grounds, it will not appear as fleeing on fake medical grounds.

ManjaM
BRFite
Posts: 1217
Joined: 15 May 2010 02:52
Location: Padvaralli

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby ManjaM » 19 Dec 2011 16:20

SSridhar wrote:India explores ways to smoothen flow of funds from Pakistan

There has been a continuous flight of capital from Pakistan and GoI is now trying to partake that. We have o be extremely careful.

India is devising new norms for screening investments from Pakistan, a move that is likely to give a fillip to flow of funds from across the border without compromising on internal security.

.
.
.


This is nothing but another round/another form of migration from the indus valley to the gangetic plains - india heartland. What was a trickle is now going to be a river.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24121
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby SSridhar » 19 Dec 2011 17:00

ManjaM wrote:This is nothing but another round/another form of migration from the indus valley to the gangetic plains - india heartland.

You mean to say, like reverse strategic depth, this is reverse hijra from dar-ul-Islam (which has become dar-ul-harb) to the original dar-ul-harb (which has become dar-ul-aman and dar-ul-development ?) ?

Dan Mazer
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 54
Joined: 03 Sep 2009 02:17

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Dan Mazer » 19 Dec 2011 17:16

shiv wrote:
Dan Mazer wrote:When did the bolded part stop being the case in India?

This is a diversion from the topic of Pakistan, but Arun seems to be asking how defeudalization (as was done in India by grabbing land from large landowners and handing that same land to those who lived on the land, causing landholdings to be split up into millions of small plots) could be achieved without socialism? Do you have any answer to a perfectly valid question apart from a clever rhetorical statement?

My post wasn't an answer to A_Gupta's qn. or claiming it to be invalid. It was just a whine brought on by seeing the news about the Food security bill that, socialism still seems to be the only intellectually respectable position in India. It was OT, apologies for that.

ManjaM
BRFite
Posts: 1217
Joined: 15 May 2010 02:52
Location: Padvaralli

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby ManjaM » 19 Dec 2011 17:58

SSridhar wrote:You mean to say, like reverse strategic depth, this is reverse hijra from dar-ul-Islam (which has become dar-ul-harb) to the original dar-ul-harb (which has become dar-ul-aman and dar-ul-development ?) ?

[Gasp] what saar, you are saying that Mard E Momin is neither Mard nor Momin? :(( :D

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Singha » 19 Dec 2011 18:03

whichever way we hack it, the Indus is dying at present usage and deforestation rates. the chinese developing hydro in POK to feed sinkiang with power will accelerate that process (rulers will pocket the proceeds)

Pak has no mass industrialization or services to fall back on, no sustainable agri practices, no hidden acquifiers, no real exportable natural resource except salt and jade.

PRC and USA cannot keep 180 mil lunatics on the payroll no matter how much notes they print. they could not even keep 10 mil pakiban paid off permanently.

Pakis only hope of survival beyond 2030 is latching on to the indian economy and surviving on that raft. bluster and n-arms does not fill the pot. bluster is nothing to a enraged and hungry mob. perhaps they will have to emigrate enmasse to more thriving parts of india and be the new source of cheap labour for indic construction, textile and other sectors then. that assumes they finally return to the roots and give up islamism though. :mrgreen: 150 mil people cannot emigrate to gulf, australia, uk or canada. only the well off and relatively educated have that escape route....there's lots of people who are stuck in pakistan.

Altair
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 12:51
Location: Hovering over Pak Airspace in AWACS

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Altair » 19 Dec 2011 18:07

Singha wrote:Pakis only hope of survival beyond 2030 is latching on to the indian economy and surviving on that raft. bluster and n-arms does not fill the pot. bluster is nothing to a enraged and hungry mob.


India must push for DeNuking Pakistan for any "economic package" as a pre-condition. If they prefer eating grass, I can supply at a discounted price.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 19 Dec 2011 18:24

Altair wrote:
Singha wrote:Pakis only hope of survival beyond 2030 is latching on to the indian economy and surviving on that raft. bluster and n-arms does not fill the pot. bluster is nothing to a enraged and hungry mob.


India must push for DeNuking Pakistan for any "economic package" as a pre-condition. If they prefer eating grass, I can supply at a discounted price.



Altair - I have some views on this issue of "de-nuking"

1. It ain't evah gonna happen.
2. In my view the idea that "we can hope to do that" and "we can plan to do that" or "Someone might do that for us" is also an idea that should be discarded. As long as Pakistanis know that Indians wish for them to be denuclearized they will worry and fret and do everything they can to avoid that

In my view we need to just reassure Pakistan that they will be finished if they use their weapons. They are welcome to keep them and paalish their mijjilej. In this connection any whining and crying that India is weak, Indians are weak etc (No I am not accusing you of doing that) would also be misplaced. It only makes Indians howl, but a lot of Pakistani literature suggests that Pakistanis know damn well that Indians are capable of taking them and their purity out. Only Indians howl "We are weak. Our leaders are weak. Our history is defeat. We are born of defeat. I am defeat. You are defeat. We are defeat. Our present is defeat. Our future will be defeat. Defeatology is our religion. Anyone else is fair, strong, bold and aggressive"

Altair
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 12:51
Location: Hovering over Pak Airspace in AWACS

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Altair » 19 Dec 2011 18:45

shiv wrote:
1. It ain't evah gonna happen.
2. In my view the idea that "we can hope to do that" and "we can plan to do that" or "Someone might do that for us" is also an idea that should be discarded. As long as Pakistanis know that Indians wish for them to be denuclearized they will worry and fret and do everything they can to avoid that

Shiv
I know it aint gonna happen.
Pakistan WILL default on World Bank and IMF loans in 2012. They will push for debt-rescheduling. They will not have money to pay for food and fuel. Who will they run to? US is gonna show the birdie. UK is in no shape to bail out anyone. China, well they are the only one who can help but for how long? Chinese are not the generous kind. They will squease every last sperm out of Pakis. Pakis know it.
An economic bail out package by "big brother" India will be pushed by Western powers to display statesmanship of Shri.NotManSingh.
We should not display any kind of generosity to boost our egos. Let them eat grass.Damn I will even supply it for free if they ask for it.
Something tells me that Pakis will never ask India for money even if it means death by hunger to their kids.

Either-way, India must push for De Nuking Pakistan knowing fully well that it aint gonna happen.
Altair

member_19648
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby member_19648 » 19 Dec 2011 18:57

shiv wrote:In my view we need to just reassure Pakistan that they will be finished if they use their weapons. They are welcome to keep them and paalish their mijjilej. In this connection any whining and crying that India is weak, Indians are weak etc (No I am not accusing you of doing that) would also be misplaced.


Shiv,
That is a big concern. India's nuclear doctrine is still not rigid and the absolute necessity of deterrence is to have a strong policy so that the other party knows that we have the capability and use nukes to wipe out any adversary if need be so. A clear and strong nuclear doctrine is the need of the hour.

CRamS
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6845
Joined: 07 Oct 2006 20:54
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby CRamS » 19 Dec 2011 19:07

Altair wrote:India must push for DeNuking Pakistan for any "economic package" as a pre-condition. If they prefer eating grass, I can supply at a discounted price.


And you think US-led west & China will sit by idly and watch their pet boy TSP being de-nuked while us Hindu SDREs get to keep our crown jewels? Which planet are you living in? The only way TSP will be de-nuked is if US-led west have complete, total, unadulterated control over India's nuke capabilities, and that includes technical capability, on what scientists work on etc. They (US-led west) are moving in that direction with the current dispensation in power in Delhi, but until they are firmly in the driver's seat, when they are assured that SDREs are irreversibly castrated and rendered like other "good boys/gals" (East Asians), TSP albatross will hang over India. Once they achieve their nuke-nude objectives with India, TSP is just one mouse click away from DC to also be rendered nuke nude. Recall, TSP nukes are remote controlled in DC with firmware supplied by Beijing; in containing us SDREs, US & China & India's own 5th columnists are allies of allies.

A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11638
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby A_Gupta » 19 Dec 2011 19:27

:rotfl: ^^^ LOL!

Altair
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 12:51
Location: Hovering over Pak Airspace in AWACS

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Altair » 19 Dec 2011 19:33

CRamS wrote:
Altair wrote:India must push for DeNuking Pakistan for any "economic package" as a pre-condition. If they prefer eating grass, I can supply at a discounted price.


And you think US-led west & China will sit by idly and watch their pet boy TSP being de-nuked while us Hindu SDREs get to keep our crown jewels? Which planet are you living in? The only way TSP will be de-nuked is if US-led west have complete, total, unadulterated control over India's nuke capabilities, and that includes technical capability, on what scientists work on etc. They (US-led west) are moving in that direction with the current dispensation in power in Delhi, but until they are firmly in the driver's seat, when they are assured that SDREs are irreversibly castrated and rendered like other "good boys/gals" (East Asians), TSP albatross will hang over India. Once they achieve their nuke-nude objectives with India, TSP is just one mouse click away from DC to also be rendered nuke nude. Recall, TSP nukes are remote controlled in DC with firmware supplied by Beijing; in containing us SDREs, US & China & India's own 5th columnists are allies of allies.


CRamS
This is exactly the defeatist attitude shiv was referring in previous post.CRS, You are an epitome of Eternal Indian Defeatist.
If US was all that militarily powerful they could have grabbed that The RQ-170 Sentinel right out of Iran and shown a finger to Iran. US is not as powerful as you think. It is people like You who prescribe superpowerdom to US more than even the most patriotic American ever does. It is exactly this attitude present in South Block too.
I am NOT saying Pakis are going to nuke nude tomorrow. I am saying that we must push for De Nuking Pakistan as a pre condition for any economic arrangement with Pakistan or even US.
We Indians must do hard bargain with everyone.Please realize that India is in much better position to bargain than any other country with respect to Geo politics. If US wants FDI in retail to open up then lets ask'em to please take the first step in de nuking Pakistan...It is India which is not realizing this fact and it pains me a lot to see even knowledgeable Indians still lumbering in US super power dom and doing sahasra namarchanas and ashtotharams to US.
Altair

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7047
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby JE Menon » 19 Dec 2011 19:46

>>It is exactly this attitude present in South Block too.

Boss, you're probably not quite correct about this. Some people may have such a viewpoint, but will be given short shrift very quickly indeed.

As for the post you are referring to, no disagreement with what you are saying, it speaks very well for itself. Way past the recovery point.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17024
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Rahul M » 19 Dec 2011 19:48

>> It is exactly this attitude present in South Block too.

not too sure of that. MEA and GOI in general belongs to the realist school.

edit : JEM has beaten me to it.

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3023
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Kanson » 19 Dec 2011 19:51

SSridhar wrote:India explores ways to smoothen flow of funds from Pakistan

There has been a continuous flight of capital from Pakistan and GoI is now trying to partake that. We have o be extremely careful.
If we manage this carefully, is there any wrong? I mean don't it gives us a kind of leverage? We may freeze it whenever we want, isn't it?

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7047
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby JE Menon » 19 Dec 2011 20:26

^^^ Indeed. I'm hoping a lot of RAPE money comes in. Then we can actually start encouraging the Pakitalibs to start Qadrifying them one by one. Then when a dependent comes to claim, I'm damn sure there will be plenty of babus waiting with demands for multi-page hand-written forms to be filled (in triplicate saar). Not to mention the lawyers :D

abhijitm
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3679
Joined: 08 Jun 2006 15:02
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby abhijitm » 19 Dec 2011 20:29

Kanson wrote:
SSridhar wrote:India explores ways to smoothen flow of funds from Pakistan

There has been a continuous flight of capital from Pakistan and GoI is now trying to partake that. We have o be extremely careful.
If we manage this carefully, is there any wrong? I mean don't it gives us a kind of leverage? We may freeze it whenever we want, isn't it?

I see this move only as to legalize current flow of investment from pakistan that might be happening through proxy channels. Financial transactions are very complex and I doubt GoI (and for that matter many advanced countries) have complete control over it.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 19 Dec 2011 20:42

Just a thought..

If I was Paki army, how would I use LeT? I mean I may be dumb but I know damn well that LeT by itself can't defeat India. Heck I can't defeat India, which is why I outsourced to LeT in the first place, so I could get money from USA and pretend that the attacks on India were freedom fighters of Kashmir an idea that the Freedom lovin' US liked.

But I can't take LeT down either. So how can I use them

1. I allow them to hold rallies
2. I make sure that the world thinks that Pakistan is becoming "radicalized"
3. Next election I fill the ballot boxes with votes for someone I want and make sure LeT gets exactly 0.006 percent of votes.

Instantly all countries the north and west of the Suez canal will rise up in chorus asserting that Pakistan is is a moderate nation filled with secular moderates. The nukes are safe! They will then open their purses again. Bad India is too toooooo threatening. The army is out of power. Pakhanstan is a democracy! Only 0.000000000000000000000006 votes to Islamists!

Or that seems to be the plan as far as I can tell..

Altair
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 12:51
Location: Hovering over Pak Airspace in AWACS

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Altair » 19 Dec 2011 20:44

JE Menon & Rahul M
Last post OT
If I am wrong then I will be really happy about South Block but unfortunately PMO is carrying the attitude of EDI (pronounced "Eddy") Eternal Defeatist Indian. Perhaps guys in PMO get bulllied more than guys in South Block and are just trying to save their jobs and pensions or worse get moolah. Either way we are not doing what needs to be done.
Bottom Line: We MUST do a hard bargain with the Americans regarding Pakistani Nuke program. We may not get a better opportunity than we have now and the window is closing.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13262
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Lalmohan » 19 Dec 2011 20:46

shiv-ji, and in exchange the L-e-t get to indulge their own special interests and hobbies which sometimes have collateral damage... which in the big scheme of things is all fine... unless they start killing americans...

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby shiv » 19 Dec 2011 20:49

Altair wrote:We MUST do a hard bargain with the Americans regarding Pakistani Nuke program. We may not get a better opportunity than we have now and the window is closing.



Altairji, with respect may I state a huge objection I have to this. It assumes that the US has the power to denuke Pakistan. That is not true. You have to really believe in US power and Indian impotence to think that India "bargaining" with the US to get the US to denuke Pakistan has any serious meaning.

Even if you are convinced about Indian weakness, US power to denuke Pakistan simply does not exist. The pakis are not that stupid.
Last edited by shiv on 19 Dec 2011 20:50, edited 1 time in total.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7047
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby JE Menon » 19 Dec 2011 20:50

>>We MUST do a hard bargain with the Americans regarding Pakistani Nuke program.

Why should we bargain at all on this issue?

Dipanker
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3021
Joined: 14 May 2002 11:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Dipanker » 19 Dec 2011 21:02

You gotta like this guy Hassan Nisar, he calls a spade a spade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3AMeIqX ... re=related

Yogi_G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2400
Joined: 21 Nov 2008 04:10
Location: Punya Bhoomi -- Jambu Dweepam

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Yogi_G » 19 Dec 2011 21:10

shiv wrote:
Altair wrote:We MUST do a hard bargain with the Americans regarding Pakistani Nuke program. We may not get a better opportunity than we have now and the window is closing.

Even if you are convinced about Indian weakness, US power to denuke Pakistan simply does not exist. The pakis are not that stupid.


Which makes me curious. There is no one in Pakistan itself who can denuke it even Kayani. Anyone talking of de-nuking TSP will be branded a revisionist and a YYY agint and given qatil e cutlet. To sum it up, there is no power or person on this planet who can de-nuke Pakistan.

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby rajanb » 19 Dec 2011 21:24

CRamS wrote:
Altair wrote:India must push for DeNuking Pakistan for any "economic package" as a pre-condition. If they prefer eating grass, I can supply at a discounted price.


And you think US-led west & China will sit by idly and watch their pet boy TSP being de-nuked while us Hindu SDREs get to keep our crown jewels? Which planet are you living in? The only way TSP will be de-nuked is if US-led west have complete, total, unadulterated control over India's nuke capabilities, and that includes technical capability, on what scientists work on etc. They (US-led west) are moving in that direction with the current dispensation in power in Delhi, but until they are firmly in the driver's seat, when they are assured that SDREs are irreversibly castrated and rendered like other "good boys/gals" (East Asians), TSP albatross will hang over India. Once they achieve their nuke-nude objectives with India, TSP is just one mouse click away from DC to also be rendered nuke nude. Recall, TSP nukes are remote controlled in DC with firmware supplied by Beijing; in containing us SDREs, US & China & India's own 5th columnists are allies of allies.


The yanquis have been having wet dreams about the porkis for decades. See where it has got them. On the +ve side an introduction to flied lice (to which they have given away most of their manufacturing) on the other hand the purveyors of 9/11.

Add to that they keep attacking the wrong countries, there sure is a lot of orwellian hype to keep their troops fighting for causes way off the geographical targets.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4234
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby KLNMurthy » 19 Dec 2011 21:34

SSridhar wrote:I do not believe that anybody can guarantee anything in Pakistan. But, Zardari might have returned on his own volition for two reasons. Firstly, he may not want to appear as running away from Pakistan because that might adversely affect son Bilawal who is waiting to assume the Chair. Secondly, this will enhance his image, at least among the jiyalas, so that when he departs permanently to the US soon on medical grounds, it will not appear as fleeing on fake medical grounds.

He might be a genuinely courageous man. He spent years in paki prisons and is still standing.

rajanb
BRFite
Posts: 1945
Joined: 03 Feb 2011 16:56

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby rajanb » 19 Dec 2011 21:40

KLNMurthy wrote:
SSridhar wrote:I do not believe that anybody can guarantee anything in Pakistan. But, Zardari might have returned on his own volition for two reasons. Firstly, he may not want to appear as running away from Pakistan because that might adversely affect son Bilawal who is waiting to assume the Chair. Secondly, this will enhance his image, at least among the jiyalas, so that when he departs permanently to the US soon on medical grounds, it will not appear as fleeing on fake medical grounds.

He might be a genuinely courageous man. He spent years in paki prisons and is still standing.


The fact that he spent so many years in prison doesn't mean anything. That is because the relationship between and amongst the the RAPE and TSPA is economically very complicated that nothing is as you see it when it is about these class of people.

RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby RamaY » 19 Dec 2011 21:43

I agree with Shiv-school on Paki nuke program. The reality is

- P Nukes are real.
- No one, not even unkil can take that capability out as long as P exists

From Indian perspective
- P Nukes are no different from C nukes or U nukes. Actually P nukes are nothing but green color C/U nukes
- If India can live with the reality of C/U nukes it shouldn't have any issue with the existence of P nukes.
- C nukes are as close to India as P nukes from proximity perspective
- P will never use its nukes against India without prior permission/approval from C/U

If there is any chanikyanness left in India, it should find a way to make Takshaka bite Indra = "Sahendra Takshakaya swaaha!". To understand how this is going to end please read the story of Astika in MB.

Altair
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 12:51
Location: Hovering over Pak Airspace in AWACS

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Altair » 19 Dec 2011 21:46

shiv wrote:Altairji, with respect may I state a huge objection I have to this. It assumes that the US has the power to denuke Pakistan. That is not true. You have to really believe in US power and Indian impotence to think that India "bargaining" with the US to get the US to denuke Pakistan has any serious meaning.

Even if you are convinced about Indian weakness, US power to denuke Pakistan simply does not exist. The pakis are not that stupid.


Shiv ji
I agree US is not potent enough to De Nuke anybody. But US has the power to enforce crippling economic sanctions on a country across a broad spectrum. As you are aware Pakistani economic situation is in deep doo doo.
There is no need for a UNSCOM type of thing as Pakis will beat the system.
Economic sanctions work. Prime donor USA to Prime wrecker USA will cripple the Pakjabi and TFTA businesses.
If US puts economic sanctions on Pakistan, I promise they will literally eat grass in 2013-14.Once this situation is reached anything is possible. De Nuking can become a possibiity.
Finally,US can make sanctions work if it wants to.
Altair

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54716
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby ramana » 19 Dec 2011 22:26

SSridhar, Earlier I had suggested we study the collapse of FSU as a model for TSP. One key factor was the flight of capital from FSU to West safe havens especially Germany. For TSP there is no such safe haven in West as it could be frozen by the US led West. In India the funds can be kept safe from (mis) appropriation.

So that money transfer to India is a conduit for the RAPE and TTP to transfer the funds before/at the right time. (Wahabandi Coup).

So key factors are getting placed.

viewtopic.php?p=1184426#p1184426



RajeshA, Thanks for the parallels. More detailed than what I thought.

But here are a few of my own:
- Both are agglomerations of multi-ethnic groups (Russia: Russians, Ukranians, Central Asians etc; Pakistan: Pakjabis, Sindhis, Baloch and others)
- Both had productive core (Russia: Pakjab) and unproductive periphery (CIS: Pashtunwa etc.)
- Both had dominant ethnic group (Russians:Pakjabis) embrace an ideology (Communism:Islam) for preservation
- Both saw/are seeing the ideology is not serving them
- Both are nuke powers with clown jewels dispersed

Key to FSU unraveling was the Red Army stayed in barracks when the old timers launched a coup to halt the 'decline'. FSU case the cabal didn't go along with the prestroika reforms of Gorby. In TSP case it could be something else that they hold dear.

Analogous condition would be if some old time TSPA cabal launches a coup to restore TSP glory and the rest of them stay in barracks either due to US inducements or self realization that their instituion's key role is to defend their country and not be part of the problem.

A leader (Yeltsin) of the dominant ethnic group led a people's protest. Recall he was part of the establishment earlier. Similarly if a Pakjab national leader who has some following protests against the cabal.

Some deal similar to Russia to keep the nukes for their safety and or prestige where in Pakjab brings back the maal and ensures the safety. Massa wants to remove them if such a thing happens.

A kelptocratic elite (RAPE) that siphons off the funds abroad to safe havens (Swiss banks, Londonium etc.) And bring it back as investments!

Russian mafia analog is TSP Dawood type gangs. Are there any such gangs in TSP?

What am I thinking!



On further thinking the RAPE is the equivalentof Russian Mafia. DI is a two bit/cowrie Indian crook.

archan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6821
Joined: 03 Aug 2007 21:30
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby archan » 19 Dec 2011 23:25

Dipanker wrote:You gotta like this guy Hassan Nisar, he calls a spade a spade:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3AMeIqX ... re=related

Thanks for posting. This is a part of a larger discussion posted below.
Some very clear thinking and refreshing honesty. Key points:

Pakis love to blame the "other" while it is their own people who have been screwing them throughout history (pre-pakistan history as well) and they continue to screw themselves.
Some examples provided are, Tipu Sultan cheated by his own (Muslims) against a handful of Whites, Siraj ud daula, Bahadur Shah Zafar, and many more.
The kicker is, on the topic of Ummah, he says that it is the Muslims who sold out and facilitated the creation of Israel, which they now claim to be such an injustice from the west upon them.
Regarding, "safe passage" to USA, he says that who are we to give safe passage any way? we are beggars and they are our providers.
One feels that the "establishment" there would not like such clarity of thought among the commons.
(those who understand Hindi/Urdu can watch):



I note that they still use words and phrases like "Mitti ke Madho", "Satyanash" etc.

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby svinayak » 19 Dec 2011 23:48

ManjaM wrote: India explores ways to smoothen flow of funds from Pakistan

There has been a continuous flight of capital from Pakistan and GoI is now trying to partake that. We have o be extremely careful.

India is devising new norms for screening investments from Pakistan, a move that is likely to give a fillip to flow of funds from across the border without compromising on internal security.

.

This is nothing but another round/another form of migration from the indus valley to the gangetic plains - india heartland. What was a trickle is now going to be a river.


This is criminal enterprise now which is operating inside Pakistan. How can that money be safe and wthout malicious output. No country allows criminals to take control and invest inside their country.

Criminal enterpise money which is coming inside India and India does not even get any justice for the crime in Mumbai done by the same criminal enterpise.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4234
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby KLNMurthy » 20 Dec 2011 00:27

Reading about TSP viewing themselves as a separate electorate of India got me thinking. What India needs to do is to view TSP, nukes and all, as a province of China ending the current scenario of twins separated under Gandhi statue. It means making it explicit to the Chinese that any attack by TSP, terrorist, conventional, WMD or economic, anything hostile at all, will henceforth be dealt with as coming from China as a whole. End diplomatic ties with TSP and merge the paki desk in south block with the china desk. BRF should end the TSP thread and shift the discussion to the China Threat thread.

It would be an version of the sahendru takshaka paradigm indicated by RamaY.

This paradigm can also the basis for (if we want) a shared strategy with the US whjch is also looking for a way out of the TSP trap. With a stroke of the pen, TSP ceases to exist from a policy perspective, to be replaced by an expanded "greater China" which will have more geostrategic space but also more responsibility and risk. For the world as a whole, the number of bad actors decreases by 1.

For India / US this shift is predicated on the premise that China is a comparatively more responsible world citizen with more at stake.

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby member_20317 » 20 Dec 2011 00:41

Amrikhans have no compulsion to treat Chipak as one. The compulsion is only for us and Afghans.

Besides treating them as one will only make them behave as one.

The solution IMO lies in finding out the biggest ghazi from amongst the lesser ghazies and force the Pakis to Pichak. Which means more support to friends inside Afghanistan.

Also to treat the Chini as just the Paki bimari to be tackled by us only alongwith the rest of the world. And so carry on with the Japs, Koreans, Taiwanese and Amerikhans in the lead (here they do have a compulsion) and we clubbing alongwith the Asean countries to give weight to this move. Viets and Philipinos need to be armed properly to that end.

In the meantime rush the A5 test and reveal the true nature of the Unitary thingy atop the A3.
:) obviously kidding.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4234
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby KLNMurthy » 20 Dec 2011 00:49

Khan only thinks he has no motivation to merge Chipak. Khan's overriding concern is to avoid nuclear warfare anywhere on the planet and he can't get a handle on TSP to be able to prevent it. He should be made to see that NorthKoreafication of TSP shifts the problem to China which is relatively more amenable to negotiation. And TSP is done being khan's tawaif.

Anyway exercising the sahendru option by India doesn't require Khan's participation. Khan can be made to see by-and-by that he is best off following India's lead.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21169
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby Prem » 20 Dec 2011 01:09

Those who enjoy daily deflowering of Pakayshastan are the one will do the denuking once they know they are in same boat as India. Spreading of nukes by Poaks to all the sundires will do the trick. Few more years, Iran, Saudi, Gelf, Turkey , Egypt, Vietnam, United Korea and Japan etc will have bombs in basement and then the real fun will start.

JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7047
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 201

Postby JE Menon » 20 Dec 2011 01:40

>>But US has the power to enforce crippling economic sanctions on a country across a broad spectrum.

Actually, the US does not even have the power to do that. For instance, note Iran. I think sanctions against Pakistan will be more successful than in the case of Iran, but not of much significance; China will acquiesce only in form, and we can pretty much expect the same from the Gulf kingdoms.

But let us assume that the US does have the power. Why should India bargain with the US about this? Is it not in American interest to skewer Pakistan with Amritraj? Why should we negotiate away something for them take an action which is in their own interest. If it is not in their interest, then no amount of bargaining on our side will get the US to shift its position - or the price will be unpayable. There is no value in bargaining with the US on Pakistan. They can do what is in their interest, or not. It's their call in their relationship with Pakistan. We can, must and will deal with the Paks in our own way.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Feedfetcher, L Ram and 22 guests