NoKo after "Dear Leader" Kim

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Dec 2011 20:56

RajeshA, Reform of Asian socialism is the last frontier in End of History. Korean reunification is one way to achieve that just as it happened in East Germany.
I however don't see what role India can have in Korean Unification. The stakes for PRC are very high if this happens due to proximity, history and even demographics.

Meanwhile Nightwatch ruminates:

North Korea: Among the security measures now in effect are a closure of the border with China, a closure of all markets, and orders confining all North Koreans to their homes. Public safety officers patrolled streets and alleys in major cities to ensure compliance. North Korea also fired two short range ballistic missiles into the Sea of Japan in a show of force.

Comment: The reaction of North Koreans to the death of Kim Chong-il contrasts sharply with the outpouring of genuine grief at the passing of Kim Il-sung in 1994. Then the security forces could not restrain the public outpouring of grief.

Today, the grief obviously was staged for TV; streets were empty and patrolled. Few loved Kim Chong-il because he did little for North Koreans; was pretty much an introvert who went through the motions of leadership, but took care of his personal interests and hobbies and those of the Kim extended family. Through his guidance and orders in 17 years, he essentially destroyed the economy, except for the arms and arms export industry. His excesses and neglect of the country only seemed to bother him after his stroke in 2008. The population control measures suggest authorities were concerned about maintaining civil order, more than expressions of grief.

The first acts of the new leadership and the announcement of the funeral committee with the ordered list of names convey important messages to the North Korean populace about the style of the new order and about the important people in the new administration.

The timing of the missile launches represents a warning to outsiders and continues the belligerent style of the attacks against South Korea in 2010. Kim Jong-un and his handlers have sent the message that North Korea is belligerent and unafraid.

The order of the persons and positions listed in the funeral committee indicate a calculated effort to project that the succession is institutional, supported by key organs of government - President of the Supreme People's Assembly, Premier of the cabinet, the Chief of the General Staff of the Korean People's Army and the MInistry of the Peoples Armed Forces.

The two family guides for Kim Jong-un are his aunt Kim Kyong-hui and his uncle Chang Song-taek. They are listed 14th and 19th. The leadership has gone to some pains to obscure the indicators of a dynastic succession.

The regime appears to be in the hands of the top four leaders listed after Jong-un himself. Two of them are senior civilians in government positions, not party positions. The other two are Vice Marshals of the Korean People's Army. The subtext is that government and Army are working together, in their respective lanes. For now, party orthodoxy is not prominent.

The preliminary implication is that the leaders of the regime intend business as usual with a more aggressive style. There will be no policy statements until the New Year, but key indicators of style, tone and substance will be disclosed in the statement of national goals and priorities for 2012 in the annual New Year's essay published on 1 or 2 January. Readers should watch for mention of military goals relative to civilian goals. If civil development objectives, for example, are mentioned ahead of national security and military goals, that will be a positive sign.

The US Allies: The United States, Japan and South Korea agreed on the need to maintain stability after the death of North Korean leader Kim Chong-Il and called on North Korea to take action to show it is interested in denuclearization, Japanese Foreign Minister Koichiro Gemba said on 19 December after a meeting with U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in Washington. It is important to make sure Kim's death does not negatively affect the stability of the Korean peninsula, Gemba added.

Comment: Stability and denuclearization would appear to be minimalist, defensive goals for the Allies during a time of change and potentially great opportunity. Alternatives might include greater goodwill and normal relations between the Koreas; internal political reform and economic opening. The Chinese program of infrastructure investment and construction in North Korea and economic cooperation in joint ventures appears far sighted and better calibrated to achieve economic and, possibly, political progress that maintains stability, promotes growth and reduces North Korean dependency on international handouts.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 20 Dec 2011 23:39

ramana garu,

In March 2007, North Korea was at one time desperate for some 25 million dollars frozen in some bank in Macau. It had to close its embassies in Australia and elsewhere due to lack of money.

It is in pretty sorry state.

China is a very attractive patron for any country which is ruled by some military dictatorship which is especially under duress by the Western alliance in the name of human rights etc. (of course it is simply a pressure tactic), countries like Pakistan (at times), Myanmar, North Korea, some African countries. There are of course other countries under pressure from the West because their rhetoric and policies are anti-USA, countries like Iran, Venezuela, etc.

Now in order to break Chinese grip on these countries, especially the first kind, either one does a regime change as per the wishes of the West, brings in democracy and throws out the existing regime; or one can try to give the existing elite a soft landing, allowing them to make the transition to 'legitimate' ways to exercise power and manage wealth.

This later strategy is what India should be following, trying to give the existing elites in these countries a way out, enabling a transition to legitimate politics and economy. This requires providing the old elite a measure of trust that they would be able to make the transition. This we need to do especially in Myanmar. Now North Korea could offer us a similar opportunity. Even Pakistan offers certain possibilities.

Why we do this? We offer the elites a 'soft landing' in exchange for a voice in the future path of these countries. With Myanmar we want a deep integration on all levels. With North Korea we want a unification with South Korea.

India has a role as a leading NAM country!

India's role should be one of North Korea's partners to see that North Korean elite get their share of a post-Unified South Korean structure. Just like India is willing to cooperate with Myanmarese j

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Dec 2011 02:50

http://exposingtheleft.blogspot.com/201 ... -died.html

Kim's reported death on Monday came as the U.S. envoy for North Korean nuclear issues, Glyn Davies, returned to Washington for consultations after talks in Seoul, Tokyo and Beijing over the nuclear issue. U.S. officials remain leery of North Korea's intentions and doubts have grown amid reports that Kim Jong il's health problems were opening a transition plan to elevate to the top office his son Kim Jong Un -- a man believed to be in his late 20s, and about whom little is known. Some analysts said Kim's death -- and the transition to a young and untested leader -- could darken the outlook for the nuclear talks.

( Did Chinese assasinate Dear Kim )

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Dec 2011 07:12

China is slowly stepping up to become world leader. It is all part of the game of the Panda!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Dec 2011 07:21

SBajwa wrote:China is slowly stepping up to become world leader. It is all part of the game of the Panda!!

In fact I think India should have no role. China should continue to look after the two countries it has nurtured in its rise to power - <ta daaaaaaa> North Korea and Pakistan.

Let Indians remain second to China which is where India belongs. : :lol

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Dec 2011 08:15

Exactly!!! China will destroy itself just like napakis and nokos have done!! They will live by eating grass and produce nothing but nitrogen, methane and hydrogen.

Confucius says that People who live in glass houses should change clothes in basement. China has no basements.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Dec 2011 08:21

Mourning the Dear Leader

Is Kim Jong Un up to the task?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Dec 2011 13:19

Abdicating to China global diplomacy nures a PRC sucker-punch KO at the beginning of the fight.In fact its worse than a walk-over! Let me ask a frank Q.What did ndia do when it was first known that NoKo was selling WMDs to Pak? Did we try and engage with them? After all,irrespective of which side one is on,the "West's or NoKo's",the Korean War is officially still not over and tensions run very high on the K-peninsula.Indian offers of helping assist food production would've gone a long way in restoring normal links with this reclusive state,paranoid in the extreme.

The actions we have taken recently are at least a decade too late.See how our policy of maintaining a link with the similarly condemned Burmese govt. has yeilded good returns.Some sort of balance is emerging between India and China for influence in Burma,with the Burmese more responsive to our concern about NE rebels taking shelter in Burmese territory and getting aid from there via China.

We should now engage the NoKo regime very actively extending to it full economic support forhelping its "juche" (self reiance/swadeshi) goal.At this pointin time it needs as many fiends as it can get who will help it from becoming another target for the "seasonal revolutions" orchestrated by the west/US.Intime,just as we are seeing in Burma,democracy is putting forth its first tender shoots after decades.Actively engaging wiht the new NoKo leadership can help reduce the militayr cooperation it has with Pak."Nothing ventured,nothing gained."

All across Africa,China is actively engaged with the regimes in power,seeking naval/military facilities at breakneck speed.India has to do the same tous azimuth.

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 21 Dec 2011 15:10

Rajeshji

Instead of North Korea, we should focus on improving our relationship with Japan and South Korea.
Japan can help India by investing heavily in our infrastructure development plans. Japan can also help us develop our manufacturing industries. As Japan has got ageing population, India’s young and cheap labour should be used by Japanese manufacturers by setting up their factories in India. This can create a win-win situation for both countries. It is in Japan’s interest to help create a strong and powerful India to counter China.

South Korea is very good in ship building. South Korea is the world's dominant shipbuilder with a 50.6% share of the global shipbuilding market as of 2008. We need to have them as our partners for port development as well as for ship building, both commercial and navy.

But we need to move fast to grab these opportunities as it is a race against time (China!)

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Dec 2011 19:05

We have to be very careful and make ties on the both ends. I think long term plan of Panda is to be some sort of elder brother between NK and SK unifying them in the same fashion as US did with Germany. All towards efforts to become the only global super power in world.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Dec 2011 19:14

Shankaraa ji,

Indian diplomacy has already appreciated the imperatives of getting close to Japan and South Korea. We are already moving closer to them and very aware of the opportunities you speak of.

Getting closer to North Korea is something we should do to be of even more use to our new found friends in Northeast Asia. Both Japan and South Korea would appreciate if India were to offer our mediation role to calm down the waters there. Our role in North Korea could facilitate the interests of both Japan and South Korea!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Dec 2011 19:14

Philip wrote:Let me ask a frank Q.What did ndia do when it was first known that NoKo was selling WMDs to Pak? Did we try and engage with them?.

Philip, remember the papers from the 70s? there used to be full page ads praising Kim Il Sung and his benevolent leadership of N. Korea. Sadly we have actually sucked NoKo d*k to no avail because we were offering them everything they did not want. They did not want friendship. They wanted weapons to kick western ass.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Dec 2011 19:20

India can check-mate China by propagating our ancient values.

1. Telling both NK and SK that peace and non-violence is the way forward.
2. Advising them both to help each other and brothers must live together.
3. Buddhism tourism circuit for NK.
4. Helping NK to be acceptable around the world.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Dec 2011 21:04

North Korea's problem is like that of China and Pakistan. Any change from their current path threatens the government.

It takes a lot for a government to collapse itself and not be killed by the people it has sodomised for decades. Russia, East Germany and Poland managed that. Russia is an interesting case because its earlier monarchy was killed - but decades later the transition was peaceful.

China is changing itself gradually. Chinese people will kill their leaders if the Chicoms don't play their cards well. Some Pakis are already trying to kill their elite leadership who live in protected enclaves. Myanmar seems to have changed gradually and I think Indian influence has helped. NoKo? No chance of quick change. South Korea and the US and China will resent Indian influence and will do everything to keep NoKo paranoid. Remember how the US and China have done everything to feed and nurture Pakistan's paranoia with India?

Balls to NoKo. Why should we care? In fact we should aggravate their paranoia. Their survival is not important to us. But if they can become a drain and headache to China that is fine with me. And if they help China fight the US that is also fine.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Dec 2011 21:28

Of course 'Aloofness' is also a model with which India can deal with North Korea - the model of dealing by not-dealing. This is the Mleccha Model - the Touch-it-and-it-will-burn-me model.

But Arabia or Spain or Portugal or Netherlands or Britain or USA or Soviet Union or even China today did not became superpowers by staying at home and watching 'Munni hui badnaam'!

North Korea is India's neighbor because China has become India's neighbor, and not just a neighbor but a very dangerous enemy aptly proven by exporting nuclear weapon technology to Pakistan. If we want to control the urges of China, we have to control its 360° environment. We are a power with much less resources (financial) at hand. This makes it all the more important that we use our brains to compensate for our lack of brute force capability (no TN).

'Aloofness' is not an option. If China is coming at us with a mace, and our shield may not be able to take the blow, then it would be useful if we tie up China's shoe laces so that it cannot charge. North Korea can help us tie China's shoe laces.

There may be similarities between Pakistan and North Korea, but then there may be differences too. So what may work for Pakistan may not work for North Korea. May be we don't even want the same outcome in both places simply because one is next door and the other at a comfortable distance. Our game should be different for North Korea.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 21 Dec 2011 22:01

Add to that the fact that the NoKo playing field on a socio-cultural level is much more receptive to traditional Indian ideas as the EJ presence is almost negligible unlike South Korea.

The West will almost certainly try to pry open the oyster shell that is NoKo with their missionaries, they will put their tried and tested model of exporting missionaries in these trying times (both for West and NoKo).

In a way, NoKo is the final bastion in East Asia and ASEAN, a 11th hour test bed for timeless Indian ideas and values. It is upto us if we can make another Bhutan out of them.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Dec 2011 22:12

Another example of something we should contemplate.

Buddhism in Korea was introduced in the 4th century AD. Partly due to large distances, that did not translate into a close relationship with the Indian Subcontinent in terms of politics and economics. At some point India lost its autonomy to project her civilization. It is only today after India became independent, with advances in global travel capabilities, with blooming trade possibilities, and after we have got a "grip" on our own challenging environment, that India is really ready to make use of the seed that was planted more than 1600 years ago. But what do we see?

We see that South Korea is being eaten up by Catholics and Protestants. And it could happen that the Indian prince comes 20 years too late to embrace the the Korean princess, who had been waiting for India for 1600 years!

Whether some Indians acknowledge it or not, fact is that Dharma/Dhamma and Sanskriti have been India's biggest exports. We should not look away from our strengths.

If we want the Korean princess back, and thus Indian influence over Northeast Asia in the 21st century, then Buddhism needs a revival in Korea. In South Korea that would be an uphill task but India could help! But the biggest lever we may have in pushing back the Christian encroachment into the traditional Dharmic country would be if we are able to bring North Korea into the Dhamma fold.

When North Korea and South Korea unite, there is going to be a gold rush by the Christians into the North. They will be setting up all sorts of Christian institutions and start proselytizing! So there is this small window of opportunity for Buddhism or Tongbulgyo as the Koreans call it to conquer some lost ground there.

If however the Christians get there first, then Korea would go steadily into the Christian fold and the potential for our influence would wane!

At the moment there is a certain anti-American attitude in North Korea, which allows the Dharmic Continuum to make inroads more easily. If North Korean elite can be persuaded that a Re-Buddhization of North Korea would help keep back the American influence in their land, even after the reunification, they may accept the argument for Re-Buddhization. Re-Buddhisization helps North Korea to better integrate with South Korea when the unification happens but it also allows it to keep its distinct Re-Buddhisized Identity intact after the unification. By becoming almost exclusively Buddhist, North Korea can also exert influence over South Koreans in this tug-of-"war" between Buddhists and Christians in Korea.

The Re-Buddhisization would give North-Korea the confidence that it could hold its own in a unified Korea, and would not have to go under the South Korean hegemony. The Buddhist South Koreans would be happy that they have found Buddhist allies in the North in their competition with Korean Christianity.

Moreover if the North Korean Elite position themselves as the upholders of the Korean Traditional Way - the Buddhist way, they will be able to survive the storm better. Any effort to overthrow them by the South Korean elite would be protested against as an anti-Buddhist agenda!

Through an "alliance" with India, North Korea can re-Buddhisize during this window of opportunity before the unification without the danger of South Koreans or people following an American agenda penetrating and compromising their security.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Dec 2011 22:13

Klaus ji,

thanks!

BTW you beat me to that message! But it is a message that needs the attention.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Dec 2011 22:35

North Korea is a cold, piss poor state led by a wealthy paranoid oligarchy. You cannot reach out to the people by bypassing the corrupt oligarchy. If you suffer from the bullshit of dharma and righteouness you cannot deal with the NoKo oligarchy who will not allow you to reach out and help the people. If you want to muck around, you can deal with the corrupt leaership and give them what they want. They want an ability to survive as NoKos corrupt leaders while the people remain poor. For that they must be rich and powerful. They want dollars and arms. Give the NoKo leadership dollars and arms. Allow their leaders to come to India and drink, use drugs if they want and provide them with prostitutes. NoKo will play into our hands then.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 21 Dec 2011 22:53

When Pakisatan was testing it's No-ding-dong clone (Ghauri), the GOI was giving a diplomatic reception to a North Korean drone! North Korea is an enemy of India. It has an economy one fortieth the size of South Korea. It has nothing to offer us or anyone else. While the South is busy producing DRAms, LED TVs and is developing an impressive MIC, the North is good only in producing famine and growth stunted children.

I have several South Korean friends here in Umrikah and they tell me many South Koreans don't want re-unification as the North is so impoverished that they don't want the economic burden of bailing them out. The welfare handouts will probably go on for a generation.

The North along with West/East Germany is a perfect examplre of how socialism impoverishes people compared to a market economy even when dealing with genetically identical people. The North had a bigger oindustrial base at the time of independence and to this day has greater mineral resources than the South. I guess socialism fails everywhere in the world except India where it is still enshrined in the constitution

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Dec 2011 22:58

I don't see a problem with feting the North Korean leadership. In fact we should do it. They already go to places like Singapore and Hong Kong for that. They can do it in India as well.

The question is for all our generosity and hospitality to the North Korean leadership, what do we request in return?

Of course, it would have to be requests which help us mold the region to our benefit, but also does not endanger the power base of the North Korean leadership. The model I offered earlier, would in fact empower the North Korean leadership's power base as the keepers of the faith and probably consolidate their position even after an eventual unification. If they retain their leadership beyond that time, they can be assured that they will profit from South Korean economy also.

So what we would be offering them is a model to strengthen their leadership but for India more importantly turning the situation in Northeast Asia to India's cultural, military and economic advantage.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Dec 2011 22:59

Important is that we don't get into the thinking of "not a blade of grass grows there"! That thinking has hurt us enough! Every rock in the world has something to offer us!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Dec 2011 23:06

India has hosted and feted the North Korean leadership starting decades ago. We got zilch in return, but given our penchant for feting all sorts of dubious and untrustworthy people who only bite us in the ass later, I think it is fine to fete the dear Young-un. Only we should take a leaf out of the ban-worthy Bhagwad Gita and fete the ungrateful NoKos but not expect anything in return.

Wooing North Korea is a completely worthless pursuit.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 21 Dec 2011 23:14

Well there is this definition for insanity: "Doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results"! I think one needs to factor in the environment as well.

The world is untrustworthy. It is insane to expect otherwise. We should remain cognizant of that and play our cards accordingly. Break little pieces of the cake first. Try to nibble at the periphery of the NoKo leadership making our way to the center of the cake where the big cherry sits in the middle. No need to start at the cherry.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 22 Dec 2011 00:44

Hmmm... maybe we should start by advising the Lil' Un to get a decent haircut

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 22 Dec 2011 01:26

South Korea had a lower per capita income than India in 1947. Look at them today. While we have PSU dinosaurs, their govt. assisted the formation/growth of Chaebols which are high tech. giants and world beaters. No company in India can truly warrant comparison to Hyundai or Samsung.

This is what is possible when the govt. assists rather than $hits on businesses as the GOI does. Did you ever notice India has ministers for every effing entity under the sun and that there is an almost an inverse correlation to development in that field. There is do specific dept. of food processing in the US. Yet the US processes 80% of it's food while India processes less than 2%.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 22 Dec 2011 06:49

India won't woo the NK but China, USA, UK and others are probably already lining up to offer carrots. It is always better to offer (or pretend to offer) carrots as a tactical initiative than shafting the stick.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2011 07:09

tejas wrote: There is do specific dept. of food processing in the US. Yet the US processes 80% of it's food while India processes less than 2%.

There are departments of food processing and food technology in US universities.

For all the American and Gurcharan Das inspired hatred for socialism, every single IIT alumnus today is a product of socialism because they all got subsidized education under the socialist idea of the government subsidizing education. We really should not have had any IITs at all.

From my personal viewpoint my siblings and I all studied either in IIT or in some other government subsidised institution that still rank among the best in India. All of us went abroad. Most still live abroad, loving the capitalism and cursing socialism. In all cases our father would not have been able to afford the private college fees of that era so I have a personal reason to thank that aspect of socialism in India.

Every Indian student who has stood in a queue to "avail of" a student's travel concession to go home for his holidays owes something to Indian socialism. If your father had a car, chances are he too owes something to socialism because of subsidised fuel. I am sure none of us complained about cheap fuel as we, even today, fail to complain about subsidized diesel and cooking gas which our mothers and wives use as we men protect the nation with robust capitalist arguments. If you had a servant who worked for you for peanuts it is partly because he was able to buy subsidized kerosene for cooking and light. He was also able to travel subsidised by bus from his slum.

India's public sector banks, while having screwed small to medium entrepreneurs for years have also been an oasis of socialist stability. Post office schemes and the PPF schemes have served as the country's "pension" schemes for small savers, offering a steady 6 to 8 percent per annum appreciation of small savings for decades in a country that has no social security network. Socialist India and no social security? Odd isn't it. Capitalist countries have social security? But those postal and PPF (Public Provident Fund) schemes survived completely intact after the "global meltdown" that wiped out the entire life savings of people in entire countries. I am certain that many BRFites have lived in houses that have been paid for by the savings from PPF schemes by their parents, if they have not themselves used the facility. And those who don't know about PPF have never been taxpayers or employers in India.

This constant caterwaul about Indian socialism is laughably fake because every Indian has secretly or openly milked Indian socialism to his advantage while he now curses socialism as if he hates it and would never stand up for it. Why not cut the crap. Socialism has many ills but cursing it after enjoying it continuously for decades stinks of hypocrisy.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 22 Dec 2011 07:37

Kim Jong Il Will Always Live

Pyongyang, December 19 (KCNA) -- Leader Kim Jong Il, the great father of the Korean people, passed away too suddenly.

The DPRK is overcome with bitter sorrow at the demise of the father of the nation who had energetically worked day and night for prosperity of the socialist homeland and the happiness of people all his life.

Its army and people's loyalty and sense of obligation to him are now growing higher than ever before.

They are resolutely rising up to change their sorrow into great strength and courage with the noble sense of moral obligation and immovable faith and will to hold Kim Jong Il in high esteem forever and glorify his feats for all ages.

The hearts of all servicepersons and people are replete with the pledge to hold in high esteem the great Kim Jong Il forever and make neither concession nor delay on the road of the Juche revolution, the Songun revolution true to his behests.

The Korean people have suffered the great loss but are decisively rising up as they have Kim Jong Un, great successor to the revolutionary cause of Juche and prominent leader of the party and the army and people of the DPRK who is standing in the van of the Korean revolution.

He is another great person produced by Korea who is identical to Kim Jong Il.

No force on earth can block the revolutionary advance of our party, army and people wisely led by Kim Jong Un.

Leader Kim Jong Il will always be with us.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Dec 2011 08:41

Shiv,you have excelled yourself.We have all milked "Socialism" in India ever since Independence and continue to do so while whingeing against it,especially once we have feathered our nests abroad in the capitalist haven of our choice.Had it not been for our forefathers at the time of independence who enshrined the subsidies and small handouts for the masses in our laws and statutes,we would've remained a mangy illiterate society ,little better than animals ,snarling and scowling at each other trying to "bag the bone" by brute force,as we watch on telly each day with vicarious pleasure whenever tragic news from our dear neighbour to the west arrives.

Without the education that we were given at rock-bottom rates ,we would've never lifted up ourselves into the human resource rich powerhouse of knowledge that we possess today.The foundations of our burgeoning Capitalist society today is based upon the foundations of Socialism.We can never erase that fact.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2011 09:46

Philip wrote:Shiv,you have excelled yourself.We have all milked "Socialism" in India ever since Independence and continue to do so while whingeing against it,especially once we have feathered our nests abroad in the capitalist haven of our choice.Had it not been for our forefathers at the time of independence who enshrined the subsidies and small handouts for the masses in our laws and statutes,we would've remained a mangy illiterate society ,little better than animals ,snarling and scowling at each other trying to "bag the bone" by brute force,as we watch on telly each day with vicarious pleasure whenever tragic news from our dear neighbour to the west arrives.

Philip this is seriously OT. One of the biggest rants against Indian socialism comes from a book I am currently reading "India Unbound" by Gurcharan Das who excelled himself selling Vicks Vaporub all over India. He makes many valid points about the ills of Indian socialism but is silent about how or why Birla or Ambani would have invested money in a factory to make a just few thousand parachutes a year and other small numbers of miscellaneous items like flares for the Indian army and air force if the socialist government had not invested in the OFB. The ranting is easy especially when capitalism makes your money for you and sings its own praises.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Dec 2011 12:47

Shiv,we belong to the generation of rationing,pre-Green Revolution,White Revolution,Amul,etc.Coffee drunk with jaggery,I still drink it with demerara,now fashionable,PL-480 shipments,cooking on kerosene stoves,hurricane lanters,remember the ICME cookers?

When my mother was in boarding school,the kids were once taken to tea to the residence of the English Collector.She was asked to "switch on the lights,dear",but didn't know what it meant or what a "switch" was! Electricity,a new installation, had yet to reach their school.

The huge investments made after Independence to uplift the masses from grinding poverty,the "temples of modern India" our PSUs,gave us the industrial base from which we could first industrialise,produce fertiliser to accelerate agriculture and then develop the other economic entities like services,etc.Had we just imported everything,we would've had no Tatas or Birlas and other entrepreneurs at all.The only problem was that of the licence raj which favoured the few over the many.But where would we be if there was no thrust to say nuclear industry and the setting up of BAARC today? The Africn nations whoo followed the IMF cure,collapsed into poverty if they had no mineral wealth that was spent on the nation and not dictatorships and their capitalist pals.

back to NoKo:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 80298.html

Uncle Jang emerges as real power in North Korea
Late leader's brother-in-law will guide the 'Great Successor'

Donald Kirk, Clifford Coonan Thursday 22 December 2011

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 23 Dec 2011 00:43

Shiv saar,
Should I now stop hating and start liking the brits for *****ing India because I write and speak and program in English and travel in the trains they built?

*Confused*

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Dec 2011 04:42

Kim Jong Il's Life Bright as Snow

Pyongyang, December 21 (KCNA) -- Snow fell over Pyongyang on Wednesday when its citizens are overwhelmed with bitter sorrow and grief over the loss of the sun of the nation.

Snow fell gently on the heads of an endless stream of lamenting mourners.

Not thinking about wiping away snow from them, they recollect the words of leader Kim Jong Il who likened his revolutionary philosophy to snow he loved so much.

Kim Jong Il told officials that devoting himself to the immortality of President Kim Il Sung, the prosperity of the country and the happiness of the people means his philosophy on snow and that means self-sacrifice.

Looking back on world history, there were many statesmen who advocated patriotism and dedication. But, no one has ever made such total dedication with a pure and true mind like snow.

It was only Kim Jong Il who made his life shine like snow.

He worked hard day and night, having uncomfortable sleep and taking rice-balls. He was the first to greet dawn like a man in his twenties. Seeing his dedication in tears, the people would ask him to stop making any more journeys along snow-covered roads in cold weather and sitting up all night. Hearing this, he said he considered it as his pleasure and his routine to do so and continued his journeys despite strong wind and snow and spent nights full of enthusiasm.

Who is the last laughter? No one in the world can beat the man ready to die. With such pluck and gut Kim Jong Il made trips to inspect the front and give field guidance to factories and co-op farms, providing a bright prospect for building a thriving nation.

The army and people of the DPRK renew their determination to dynamically advance along the road of patriotism and dedication under the leadership of Kim Jong Un, vice-chairman of the Central Military Commission of the Workers' Party of Korea, regarding the philosophy of Kim Jong Il on snow as a permanent textbook for revolution.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Dec 2011 04:43

Feats of Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Suk Praised Abroad

Pyongyang, December 21 (KCNA) -- Events took place in different countries between Dec. 12 and 14 to mark the 20th anniversary of leader Kim Jong Il's assumption of supreme commandership of the Korean People's Army and the 94th birth anniversary of Kim Jong Suk, an anti-Japanese war hero.

They included seminar and book and photo exhibition in Italy, lectures in the Czech Republic and Guinea and a film show in Thailand.

On display in their venues were works of President Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il, photos on their immortal exploits and books and photos introducing the Korean people in the efforts to build a prosperous and powerful country and achieve the national reunification.

Mauro Cazadio, general secretary of the Struggle for the Peace and Socialism of Italy, said he pays the highest tribute to Kim Jong Il who performed undying exploits for socialism and human cause of independence by guiding the struggle of the Korean people to victory with his Songun revolutionary leadership.

Banou Keita, chairman of the Guinea-Korea Friendship Association, praised Kim Jong Suk, woman commander of Mt. Paektu, for having reliably ensured the personal safety of the President in the days of anti-Japanese war and the period of building a new country. The Korean people called different regions and units of the country after her august name to hand down her feats to posterity, he said.

Appreciated at the show were "Arms of Korea" and other Korean films.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Dec 2011 04:45

Natural Wonders Observed

Pyongyang, December 21 (KCNA) -- Peculiar natural wonders were observed on Mt. Paektu, Jong Il Peak and Tonghung Hill in Hamhung City where the statue of President Kim Il Sung is standing at a time when all Korean people are mourning the demise of leader Kim Jong Il in bitterest sorrow.

On the morning of Dec. 17 layers of ice were broken on Lake Chon on Mt. Paektu, shaking the lake with big noise.

The Group for Comprehensive Exploration of Lake Chon on Mt. Paektu said it was the first time that such big noise was heard from the ridge of Janggun Peak and the lake.

The temperature on Mt. Paektu that day registered 22.4 degrees centigrade below zero and there was strong wind accompanied by snowstorm measuring 18 meters per second.

The snowstorm stopped blowing all of a sudden from dawn of Tuesday and heavy clouds were seen hanging around Hyangdo Peak.

At around 8:05 a.m. the sky began turning red with sunrise on the horizon. The peaks looked like a picture for wide and thick glow.

Kim Jong Il's autographic writings "Mt. Paektu, holy mountain of revolution. Kim Jong Il." carved on the mountain, in particular, were bright with glow.

This phenomenon lasted till 5:00 pm.

Glow was seen atop Jong Il Peak for half an hour from 16:50 on Dec. 19 when the nation was shocked by the news of the leader's demise. This was the first of its kind in dozens of years since the observation of the area was started.

A natural wonder was also observed around the statue of the President standing on Tonghung Hill.

At around 21:20 Tuesday a Manchurian crane was seen flying round the statue three times before alighting on a tree. The crane stayed there for quite a long while with its head drooped and flew in the direction of Pyongyang at around 22:00.

Observing this, the director of the Management Office for the Hamhung Revolutionary Site, and others said in union that even the crane seemed to mourn the demise of Kim Jong Il born of Heaven after flying down there at dead of cold night, unable to forget him."

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Dec 2011 04:48

One Million People Visit Bust of Kim Jong Suk

Pyongyang, December 21 (KCNA) -- Many servicepersons, working people of different strata and school youth and children of the DPRK are visiting the bust of Kim Jong Suk, an anti-Japanese war hero, at the Revolutionary Martyrs Cemetery on Mt. Taesong with her birth anniversary approaching.

The bust has been visited by at least one million people this year.

Anti-Japanese revolutionary fighters and other visitors paid highest tribute to the woman commander of Mt. Paektu, looking back on her brilliant revolutionary life.

Among the visitors were a large number of overseas Koreans and foreigners.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Dec 2011 05:08

The Tenuous Position of Kim Jong-il's Eldest Son

Kim Jong-nam regularly visited Pyongyang until his father had a stroke in summer 2008. But since Kim Jong-un was anointed heir to the hereditary throne in January 2009, he lived an itinerant life in mainly in Macau and Beijing and stayed well away from North Korea. Experts say he may not be safe and there have been rumors of assassination attempts by his younger brother, who is desperate to consolidate his position.

A source familiar with the internal North Korean affairs said China prefers Kim Jong-nam, who is pro-Chinese and reform-minded, and could end up backing him for the leadership in case the Kim Jong-un regime fails.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 23 Dec 2011 05:16

How to Free North Korea

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Dec 2011 06:07

kumarn wrote:Shiv saar,
Should I now stop hating and start liking the brits for *****ing India because I write and speak and program in English and travel in the trains they built?

*Confused*

You do what you like brother. Your way of dealing with the world is yours. The world is your oyster. Your natural reactions are important to me as an observer as is your confusion. But if you post a public caterwaul about how much you hate your history and your own country's background I may express an opinion on that. What you do with the opinion is your choice.

But no more of this please on this thread.