Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 2012

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby anupmisra » 24 Jan 2012 18:31

Shaashtanga wrote:This is TIRP thread so I am not sure if this is the right place, mods please remove if it is not appropriate for this thread.
What can Pakistan learn from Indian education system? (Sochta Pakistan, 20 Jan 2012)


I like the old Bayana dude from pisahour. 8) . His thought process epitomizes the state of higher (and lower?) learning in pa'astan. May his tribe grow in the land of plenty.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby shiv » 24 Jan 2012 18:36

We need to look at the Pakistan army's dilemma.

Whenever the Pakistan army has taken power in a coup, they have done so with full support of the Pakistani people, saying that they will save Pakistan. And they have invariably had to withdraw from power when Paki civilians got sick of them.

This time, if there is a coup, they will not be saving Pakistan from India. They will be asked to save Pakistan from Americans. That is the last thing that the Paki army can do. The only last minute hope for the Paki army is to conduct a massive terror raid on India - say Republic day. They can then declare emergency on the excuse that India will retaliate. But if India does not retaliate and blames Hindu terrorists - the Paki army will find itself in power. India blaming Hindu terrorists and not attacking Pakistan - or sending dossiers will put the Paki army in a spot because they still cannot do USA's job and USA will still be killing momeen. If Paki people protest against the army the army does not stand a chance.

So a coup is unlikely without a terror attack on India. Just my guess.

In many ways this may be the best way for India to displace the US and the Paki army as guarantor of Pakistani long term security. Both of them have failed. We don't really want military occupation of Pakistan, but if there is justice in the world, India will be the center of mass of the subcontinent and all its people will live by the rules of that center of mass as has been the case for 5000 years.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby Suppiah » 24 Jan 2012 18:40

India blaming Hindu terrorists and not attacking Pakistan - or sending dossiers will put the Paki army in a spot because they still cannot do USA's job and USA will still be killing momeen. If Paki people protest against the army the army does not stand a chance.


Mulla Shiv, I sometimes have a hard time figuring out if you are simply being sarcastic or making a real point..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby shiv » 24 Jan 2012 19:04

Suppiah wrote:
India blaming Hindu terrorists and not attacking Pakistan - or sending dossiers will put the Paki army in a spot because they still cannot do USA's job and USA will still be killing momeen. If Paki people protest against the army the army does not stand a chance.


Mulla Shiv, I sometimes have a hard time figuring out if you are simply being sarcastic or making a real point..


Suppiah, when a bomb goes off in India, BRF says "Pakistan". But heck, when a MiG 21 crashes, BRF says "Shoddy HAL, Uncaring Indian Air Force"

But the people who are on the ground have to have some proof. Frankly - if the GoI did a knee jerk and blamed Pakistan every time, it would be easy for some opposition party to assassinate Sonia or Advani, knowing that the stupid Indian agencies are going to blame Pakistan.

Pakistanis are not stupid. they do not leave clues lying around in blasts. So basically India cannot blame Pakistan and retaliate unless theer is proof that Pakistan committed the terrorist act. It so happened that there was enough evidence to nail Pakistan after the Parliament attack as well as 26/11. But in a dozen other atrocities the proof took a long time coming.

Pakistan needs to be brought down to its level. The only problem is how? Opportunities to do that come only once in a few years. The military option is open, but appears to be a costly option that only helps the Pakistan army in uniting the Paki people behind them.

I have said for a long time that if the US goes down, Pakistan will go down. I have a more nuanced stand on that. If the US goes down, the most powerful entity in Pakistan, the Pakistan army will go own. What takes its place will not have US support, because the US has supported no one in Pakistan other than the army. Whoever displaces the Paki army will only be anti-US. There is no more pro US group in Pakistan than the Pakistan army. The whole of Pakistan may be anti India, but only the Pakistan army is pro US.

The US needs to be removed from the equation along with its proxytute. A civil army split is just what is needed. If India plays tricks to achieve that, I would welcome it - as long as it gets done. Any more detail will require a revisit to Pakistan national budget and who gets what. Pakistan current state is because the Pakistan army has swallowed 40% of the money for 60 years. In teh last 10 years, 50% of US aid has gone to the army.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby rajithn » 24 Jan 2012 19:07

shiv wrote:We need to look at the Pakistan army's dilemma. Whenever the Pakistan army has taken power in a coup, they have done so with full support of the Pakistani people, saying that they will save Pakistan. And they have invariably had to withdraw from power when Paki civilians got sick of them. This time, if there is a coup, they will not be saving Pakistan from India. They will be asked to save Pakistan from Americans. That is the last thing that the Paki army can do. The only last minute hope for the Paki army is to conduct a massive terror raid on India - say Republic day... <SNIP> So a coup is unlikely without a terror attack on India. Just my guess. India will be the center of mass of the subcontinent and all its people will live by the rules of that center of mass as has been the case for 5000 years.


Brilliant! This and the earlier post. Could not agree more. And one of the few sensible posts here after a very long time. Thank you.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby pankajs » 24 Jan 2012 23:31

Mansoor Ijaz given final chance to appear on Feb 9
ISLAMABAD: A probe into a major scandal threatening Pakistan’s president on Tuesday appeared at risk of collapsing as investigators ruled out travelling abroad to hear the testimony of the star witness.

American businessman Mansoor Ijaz, who implicated President Asif Ali Zardari in a May memo seeking US help to rein in Pakistan’s powerful military, has refused to travel to Pakistan, citing fears for his safety.
“The commission cannot go abroad because the Supreme Court has restrained Husain Haqqani, so in the same way, Mansoor Ijaz’s statement should be recorded in Pakistan,” said Justice Qazi Faez Isa.
“He will be given box security. I assure you that his name will not be put on exit control list,” Malik told the commission.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby nachiket » 24 Jan 2012 23:44

pankajs wrote:
“He will be given box security. I assure you that his name will not be put on exit control list,” Malik told the commission.

:rotfl: Rehman Malik doing his version of downhill skiing.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby pankajs » 24 Jan 2012 23:57

Normalisation of ties with Pakistan not easy: Nirupama Rao
WASHINGTON: India has made "sincere efforts" to reduce trust deficit with Pakistan with which it has a history of complicated relationship, a top Indian diplomat has said, as she expressed concern over "difficult terrain" ahead.

"We are engaged in a very conscious effort, a sincere and honest effort to try and see how we can reduce the trust deficit in our relationship with Pakistan in order to see how we can move towards coherent process normalisation.

This is not going to be easy," Indian ambassador to the US, Nirupama Rao, said. "There is a lot of difficult terrain ahead. We recognise that. We are realist about it," she said in response to a question.

With Pakistan, its immediate neighbour, India has had a difficult, complicated and very fractious relationship for over six decades now, she said.

But she argued there is need for trade and business ties to grow and the travel between the two countries to be facilitated in a smoother way.

"In the region of Jammu and Kashmir we have consciously worked on putting in place confidence building measures that enable trade across the line of control, better transportation facilities so that people can connect more easily," Rao said.

"But fundamentally, I think we have sought to stress and emphasise Pakistan that there is need for them to act on the issue of terror. It threatens to destroy the fabric of life in themselves today. I think they realise that very well."

The ambassador said the threat of terrorism is compounded given the possibility of intersection between terrorism and the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.


"We have been affected by clandestine nuclear proliferation in our neighborhood," she said.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby pankajs » 25 Jan 2012 00:05

India concerned over victory of "dark forces" of terrorism
WASHINGTON: India has sought a cautious approach on the US-backed peace talks with the Taliban, warning against a victory for the "dark forces of terrorism" if such negotiations are put on a fast track.

"While we agree that ultimately there would have to be political solution, we also believe that this should not become an over-riding objective that needs to be achieved at all costs for that would risk the prospect of the victory of the dark forces of terrorism and extremism that have plagued the region for long," Indian Ambassador to the US, Nirupama Rao has said.


India has been "fully supportive of US efforts to fight terrorism in Afghanistan and to bring stability there. In this regard we are keenly watching recent efforts for a political dialogue," Rao said.

"Let us not wait for the dusk and the owl of Minerva to spread its wings, with awareness coming too late. Too much is at stake both for Afghanistan, and for our region in what happens in that country," Rao said.

Rao said both India and the US understand the imperative of ensuring success in Afghanistan. "We have been engaged in developmental assistance efforts in Afghanistan at considerable human and economic cost," she said. Rao said India's vision of Afghanistan is that it should become a stable peaceful and a very strong democratic country.

"It's a very diverse and pluralistic society like India. How do you cohere all the different ethnic groups and interest together. That's the challenge," she said.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby ramana » 25 Jan 2012 00:32

Mrs Rao making refs to Roman/Greek mythology (Glaucus) which might be bumper for her audience! But very appropriate idiom for the Owl is supposed to be wise and can see in the darkness.

The context is more Hegelian than Roman mythology.

Hegel said that the Owl of Minerva appears after dusk ie wisdom comes in hindsight, after its too late.
Mrs. Rao is asking them to recognize the issues before its too late.

Deep stuff.

Might be pearls before swine.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby Charlie » 25 Jan 2012 02:22

Anujan wrote:How can a foreign citizen be a member of the national assembly and the spokesperson of the President?! Though I do have a soft corner for Farahnaz :wink: isnt this a bit too much?

In other news: Civvies in Pakistan subtly threatened to put Mansoor Ijaz on exit control list. When he balked at showing up, they want him to be charged with contempt of court now :mrgreen:


It would be great if we had a list of prominent Pakis and their kids with western citizenships/residencies

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby Abhijit » 25 Jan 2012 02:22

Wow! What a policy prescription! The best way to defeat paki satan is to blame any and all terror attacks on a non-existent Hindu terror. This will force the paki army to do a coup on the paki civilians. Paki civilians won’t like it. And then what? I can’t imagine that people on BRF are going ga ga over a prescription that mani Shankar aiyer and susan roy couldn’t come up with in their moments of most intense intellectual onanism!

Shiv saar, I am an unabashed fan of your analysis but this prescription took my breath away in its terrible simpleton nature. This prescription is a non-sequitur from everything that preceded it (and I am assuming that I correctly interpreted your posts interspersed with these nuggets). If you want to engineer a split between paki civilians and paki army, by all means go ahead and do it(it has been done by paki army itself at least 4 times, so what's new? and it wasn't exactly done by PA with an India card. they in fact claimed that they had to step in to save paki satan from the greedy politicians) but why bring a non-existent Hindu terror into it? And what is the next step after this split? we sacrifice hundreds/thousands of our civilians to the bhasmasur of paki-army-engineered terror, so that paki civilians can have a better life? What is the end-game in this? And whatever the end-game, bringing a non-existent Hindu terror is unacceptable, at any cost.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby RCase » 25 Jan 2012 02:43

“He will be given box security. I assure you that his name will not be put on exit control list,” Malik told the commission.


Does Daktar Rehman Malik mean providing security to the box coffin so that no one pisses on Ijaz? :D

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby Prem » 25 Jan 2012 03:37

Harry Met Sally

Army, ISI chiefs meet PM Gilani
ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Youaasuf Raza Gilani and Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar met with Chief of Army Staff (COAS) Gen Assfaque Pervez Kayani and the Director-General Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) Lt Gen Shuja Pesha on Tuesday, the foreign ministry said, ahead of a trilateral summit on the future of Afghanistan.At the meeting, PM Gilani asked the foreign minister to visit Afghanistan to discuss reconciliation efforts there.A senior government official told Reuters that Khar’s visit was also to prepare for a US-Pakistan-Afghanistan meeting to be held in Islamabad in the coming weeks.President Asif Ali Zardari is currently on a two-day state visit to Myanmar.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby CRamS » 25 Jan 2012 05:08

Abhijit wrote:Wow! What a policy prescription! The best way to defeat paki satan is to blame any and all terror attacks on a non-existent Hindu terror. This will force the paki army to do a coup on the paki civilians. Paki civilians won’t like it. And then what? I can’t imagine that people on BRF are going ga ga over a prescription that mani Shankar aiyer and susan roy couldn’t come up with in their moments of most intense intellectual onanism!

Shiv saar, I am an unabashed fan of your analysis but this prescription took my breath away in its terrible simpleton nature.



When did DocJi suggest this? I must have missed it. If true, it is tragic to my mind at least that in our collective SDRE inability to punish TSP for its crimes against us, we have to devise such low, self flagellating devices and hope & pray that they work so TSP spares us. Wow, like you it takes my breath away. I am flabbergasted that any surrender of any proportion can be spun away as Chanakyan provided India "exists".

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby Prem » 25 Jan 2012 05:22

Pani Re Paani Tera Rang Kaisa. Poaki Mush pe maro laaat Jaiisa
Water Problems in Pakistan
Pakistan has in most areas of agriculture a monsoon climate, and there might be abundant rainfall during the wet season and then a very long dry season where crop production depends very heavily on irrigation water. Groundwater is a very important source of irrigation for farmers. Ground water is being over-pumped extensively in order to meet current demands for food production but if our demands exceed that renewable supply, then we must be in the situation that we might be over-pumping groundwater to satisfy the demand, or taking too much water from the river basin systems. The result will be the formation of salinity and barren land that in the long run will cause food scarcity. Over-pumping of groundwater for agriculture, industry or domestic use comes at a sharp ecological price. It disrupts the natural hydrologic cycle,causes Rivers and wetlands to dry up, the ground to collapse and fish and wildlife and trees to die.Millions of Pakistanis currently lack access to clean drinking water, and the situation is only getting worse. Pakistan has approximately 35 million acres (140,000 km2) of arable land irrigated by canals and tube wells, mostly using water from the Indus River.Chashma, Mangla, and Tarbela are mainly use for irrigation purposes but the gross capacity of these dams has decreased because of sedimentation, a continual process. Per-capita surface-water availability for irrigation was 5,260 cubic meters per year in 1951. This has been reduced to a mere 1,100 cubic meters per year in 2006. The water shortage will cause a wheat deficit of 12 million tons per year by 2012–13.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby shiv » 25 Jan 2012 07:10

Abhijit wrote:Wow! What a policy prescription! The best way to defeat paki satan is to blame any and all terror attacks on a non-existent Hindu terror. This will force the paki army to do a coup on the paki civilians. Paki civilians won’t like it. And then what? I can’t imagine that people on BRF are going ga ga over a prescription that mani Shankar aiyer and susan roy couldn’t come up with in their moments of most intense intellectual onanism!

Shiv saar, I am an unabashed fan of your analysis but this prescription took my breath away in its terrible simpleton nature. This prescription is a non-sequitur from everything that preceded it (and I am assuming that I correctly interpreted your posts interspersed with these nuggets). If you want to engineer a split between paki civilians and paki army, by all means go ahead and do it(it has been done by paki army itself at least 4 times, so what's new? and it wasn't exactly done by PA with an India card. they in fact claimed that they had to step in to save paki satan from the greedy politicians) but why bring a non-existent Hindu terror into it? And what is the next step after this split? we sacrifice hundreds/thousands of our civilians to the bhasmasur of paki-army-engineered terror, so that paki civilians can have a better life? What is the end-game in this? And whatever the end-game, bringing a non-existent Hindu terror is unacceptable, at any cost.


Abhijit I did not say that and no thanks for imagining that I said that. I don't want to be given a break by people who choose to imagine that i said what I did not say because I do not give anyone a break for saying stupid things.

Disclaimer: I am not making a policy prescription. My policy prescription has been war. But my policy prescriptions have not been followed i am merely making a prediction based on my reading of events. You may not like the prediction but that is not my problem.

I will explain what I said again below and I request patient reading, but two questions before that:

1. Please explain to me what these previous civil military splits were that the Pakistan military created? I put it to you that the Pakistan military has never created a split wher it deliberately becomes unpopular. It has always used its popularity to sideline politicians and has moved out when it was unpopular. So I believe you are passing off some more misinformation there.

2. How did you interpret my words as saying that "We should engineer a split". What do you mean "By all means engineer a split?". I have not said a word about engineering any split. All I have said is to exploit a split that exists insofar as it can be exploited and suggested that this is what the GoI supported (to my surprise) by the likes of Bharat Karnad may be doing. This is not my policy. This is my reading of GoI policy. I hope you can understand the difference.

In this particular instance (2012)I have suggested that the civilians in Pakistan, for the first time in the history of Pakistan are asking that the Pakistan army protect Pakistan against the US. The Paki army cannot do that. The US is their main sponsor, but they can't go against the people either. They would rather have war with India that unites Pakistanis and allows them to get baksheesh from the US saying India is the biggest threat, not USA. The only way they can spark a war to unite Pakis is to conduct a terror raid on India.

Now if a terror raid on India occurs and India attacks Pakistan, the Pakistan army would have got just what it wanted. A unity of pakis behind the army, with India as enemy number 1. This is exactly what the Pakistan army tried with 26/11 when they were under great pressure.

I believe that the GoI has taken a new approach to terror. When the evidence against anyone is not clear they have started "spreading the blame" saying "We are looking at all possibilities. Pakistan, Naxalites, Hindu terror groups etc". For the current GoI calling a terror attack Hindu terror is an extremely attractive option. Why this is so is a different (political) topic not for this thread. What is germane to this thread is that by making statements like "Hindu terror" the GoI is sending a signal to Pakistan saying "We are not automatically suspecting you in this terror attack. We will not automatically attack you"

When the GoI sends an open signal to Pakistan that they are not suspected in a terror attack, they are telling a lie, but also telling a fundamental truth. The lie is that Pakistan is not suspected. The fundamental truth is that India is not going to attack Pakistan. As I have observed from 2000 to 2011, Pakistan was blamed for a lot of attacks. Not once did India punish Pakistan. But every time Pakistan was blamed, the Pakistan army got a chance to tell their civilians "See, India is against us. Unite and we will protect you". Then the Paki army went right ahead and got arms and funds from the USA saying "We are fighting on two fronts - India in the East and Taliban in the West"

If the GoI is going to hit Pakistan, they really should hit Pakistan. If they are not going to hit Pakistan, there is no use blaming Pakistan and not hitting Pakistan as we have done for a decade. Might as well blame Hindu terror, Martians, transformer burst, cylinder burst etc. The only advantage GoI can get by blaming everyone except Pakistan for terror is that

1. There is no pressure to start war with Pakistan
2. The Pakistan army cannot get unity and support by pointing at India as enemy number 1

This fits in well with India's policy even if they are not saying it out loud. If they say it out loud they will be screwed. India's policy is not to start war with Pakistan even after severe provocations like Parliament attack, Kaluchak and 26/11. None of us on BRF have agreed with this policy. We have always wanted Pakistan to get kicked. But India's policy has been to blame Pakistan, send faxes, dossiers but not make war. No Indian government is going to declare war on Pakistan following a terror attack. The only change from this "no war" is to stop blaming Pakistan. That is the new policy. Terror attack occurs. Don't even blame Pakistan. No need to blame Pakistan. No need to attack Pakistan. (Blame Hindu terror instead and attack RSS - the response to this is an internal political question for Indians, not for this thread)

is there anything good about this policy? The only possible good such a policy can achieve is IF the Pakistani army is using a terror attack to fortify its own weak political position in Pakistan.

Has there ever been a time when the Pakistani army has been in a weak political position in Pakistan?
Yes:
1. After the 1971 war, when Bhutto took over
2. After Drone attacks, Abbottabad and the US-Pak army firefight

The Pakistan army today is in a precarious position. They would probably want to provoke war with India more than anything else in the world. The last thing India is going to do is to fight war with Pakistan for another terror attack when the last 50 terror attacks have not caused India to declare war. I put it to you that if a terror attack occurs now (next 1 month), in the absence of clear evidence the GoI will_not_blame_Pakistan. They may even blame Hindu terror. I don't care whom GoI blames - as long as the current pre-existing split where the Pakistan army is unpopular in Pakistan is made worse.

What to do with a government that blames Hindu terror is a different topic. Not to be confused with what we are doing/not doing with Pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby shiv » 25 Jan 2012 08:01

It suddenly occurs to me that a lot of people have blamed India for not having a Pakistan policy. In a sudden "Aha" moment while making my previous post I realized that India has one policy about Pakistan that cuts across party lines. That policy is "Do not declare war on Pakistan. Do not impose military punishment on Pakistanis as a response to terrorism"

This may not be a written or declared policy, but it is exactly the policy that has been followed.

But using the above policy as a fundamental pillar we have seen many variations

Variation 1: Capitulation in the face of terror - IC 814
Variation 2: Mobilize and generate hot air: Op Parakram
Variation 3: 2001 - 2008 Blame Pakistan. But don't mobiize, Don't threaten. Send dossiers
Variation 4: 26/11/2008 - shed tears and ask USA to help with investigation
Variation 5: (the latest) Don't even blame Pakistan

I am certain the above observations are 100% correct. But why has India reacted in this way?

The simplest explanation is cowardice. Indian leaders are not "bold". they are happy to see Indians die in terror attack and do not "boldly" attack Pakistan

But -but but but. Just wait a minute folks. When did you last see a politician fighting a war in the frontlines? Since the politico does not have to personally go and get killed how does he become a coward by not declaring war? War is no skin off his balls no? He can just declare war and some soldiers will get killed. If we win fine. if we lose. So what? No problem for the politician. Someone else loses. He gets credit for trying and blames army, US support etc for losing.

After all, terror kills civilians. Civilians are angry and blaming politicos. The Politico just needs to declare war. Then army men get killed. Where is the danger to the politician? He does not need spine or courage. Before war someone else was getting killed (civilians). During war also someone else will get killed (army). Not the politico personally. Politician can be as bold as needed to make him popular with people who want war to punish Pakistan and stop terror attacks.

So the "Politicians are cowards" explanation has some problems. It may be the truth but it has some issues.

Could it be that the armed forces are the real cowards? Could the real truth be that a terror attack occurs, and the politician calls the forces and says "Hey - go kick Pakistan" but the armed forces are saying "Shh- don't tell anyone, but we might get kicked. So please spare us and don't tell us to attack Pakistan"

This explanation also has some issues. The armed forces are continuously fighting Pakistani infiltrators and losing men all the time. They have never balked against fighting Pakistan. Besides why should a politician take the blame from the public and hide the armed forces secret cowardice? They have to say "We wanted war, but the armed forces said no" So the "Military does not want war" explanation sounds worse than political cowardice.

So why does India have a policy of "No war" with Pakistan in response to terror? Is there any other explanation?

My personal suspicion is that there is an overall feeling in Indian policy making circles that terrorism from Pakistan cannot be solved by a military attack. Is there any basis for this?

After all the US had one single terror attack on 9-11 and they solved it by attacking the source country, Afghanistan and took the country. 10 years later they even got the culprit who planned the attack, bin Laden. The terror attack on the US came from Afghanistan, and the US took control of Afghanistan which is now a US colony. It used to be a Pakistani colony back then, but we should let bygones be bygones. More importantly no more terror attacks on USA from Afghanistan. Problem solved.

India's terror problem is not from Afghanistan. India's terror problem is from Pakistan. Why can't we be like the US and take Pakistan like US took Afghanistan and solved the problem?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby Nandu » 25 Jan 2012 10:12

Shiv, the problem with taking Pakistan is ... you now own Pakistan!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby Prem » 25 Jan 2012 10:20

Gilani and thanedar :rotfl:
Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani has said that the authority to appoint a thanedar rests with him. This is the approach of our chief executive, who takes pride in having the authority to appoint a mere SHO. Doesn’t this statement show the mental bankruptcy of our leaders?

Marrezt Irfan Daffar

Poaq Panther

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby sanjchopra » 25 Jan 2012 10:25

^^
As the popular saying in hindi goes..

pakistan is the bone stuck in India's throat that cannot be swallowed nor spat out easily

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby Prem » 25 Jan 2012 10:28

World's only living FossilA thousand broken images
The scene changes again. Now I hear a thousand horsemen, crossing the world’s highest mountains and running into the valley. They come in groups, some small, some large. They keep coming for hundreds of years. Wherever they stop, they build homes and settle down. It sounds familiar. I understand it. I identify with it.But my search does not end here. Now I hear music and songs. It is a group of girls in white saris with red borders. Wearing fragrant garlands around their necks and arms and colorful bindies on their foreheads, they sing as they move towards the river with their offerings of flowers and fruits. I understand their song. I recognise their music.Dress. Flowers. Fruits. All seem familiar. After all we share so much with them. Our social habits, our culture, languages and even physical features are similar. So I see a link.Their song fades away. Once again I hear horses and battle cries. These are ancient warriors who came with their horses and arrows and conquered the valley. They come and over-powered those who lived here before them. But the valley really conquered them and they never went back. Now they live with us. I speak the words I borrowed from them; I share their customs, their tales and even their prejudices about castes and creed.
But does my journey end here? No, I also have affinities with those who lived here before them. I feel a sense of attachment to the un-ciphered tablets discovered from the ruins of the Indus cities of Moenjodaro and Harrapa. The statues of the mother goddess fascinate me. The dancing girl of the Indus is no stranger. She lives inside me — frozen in a frame of ecstasy which has been copied by countless generations of dancers ever since.Many in my country say that this journey of thousands of years ended in 1947 when we assumed a new identity, that of Pakistanis. After that we should shun all other identities. We have been trying to do so for more than 60 years now but it has not worked. I can’t ignore the invisible string that links me to all those who came before me.Yet there are some who put my new identity in conflict with my old identities. Besides being a Pakistani, I am also a Punjabi, a Sindhi, a Baloch and a Pashtun. And I am also a South Asian.There are some who don’t feel comfortable living with the past. The controversies they stir also disturb me. It has pitched my faith against my politics, my traditions against my work, my ethnic origin against that of others and my language against that of my neighbor.y being a Muslim is not enough. I also have to identify myself with the groups doing politics in the name of Islam. My being a Pakistani is not enough. I must also associate with those who look at any mention of other historical, social or cultural references with suspicion. I also have to subscribe to the narrow ethnic identities of various groups who have their own definitions of nationalism.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby ramana » 25 Jan 2012 10:34

The day he drop the South Asian and says he is Indian sub-continental he will get redeemed.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby Pranav » 25 Jan 2012 10:41

shiv wrote:... Might as well blame Hindu terror ...


The problem is that you reinforce Paks' narrative. Like "Samjhauta was done by Prohit onlee, who also bumped off Kurkuray".

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby shiv » 25 Jan 2012 10:54

Pranav wrote:
shiv wrote:... Might as well blame Hindu terror ...


The problem is that you reinforce Paks' narrative. Like "Samjhauta was done by Prohit onlee, who also bumped off Kurkuray".


That is not Pakistan's narrative.

Pakistan's narrative is: "India and Hindus are out to destroy Pakistan and terror by Hindu extremists in India is blamed on Muslims and Pakistanis" Pakistan's narrative is reinforced every time India blames Pakistan and Pakistan blames India back by saying "Maybe Hindu terrorists but Pakistan is being falsely implicated"

Pakstan's narrative is damaged by Indians saying "Hindu terrorists. We are not blaming Pakistan" .

I am not endorsing this. I do not endorse it. But this seems to be the GoI's new policy in addition to the existing Pakistan policy of never attacking Pakistan for a terrorist attack. I am also speculating that this new policy of GoI of not even blaming Pakistan let alone punishing Pakistan might be aimed at reinforcing a civil military split. If that is true, I hope it works.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby SSridhar » 25 Jan 2012 11:01

Hafiz Saeed threatens India
In a spectacle guaranteed to “send a chill through New Delhi,” as The Financial Times put it, Hafiz Saeed, the suspected mastermind behind the 2008 Mumbai terror bombings, is being feted in Pakistan as a “hero” attracting thousands of people as he “criss-crosses” the country at the head of a radical road-show targeting India and calling for “jihad.”

The newspaper suggested that Mr. Saeed's campaign had the covert support of Pakistan's “India-fixated [military] generals” opposed to Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari's bid to improve relations with India. His re-emergence in such a big way after being forced to lie low following the Mumbai carnage was a “stark illustration of how the authorities allow extremists to flout bans and operate in full view,” it said.

In a front-page report, “The mullahs, the militants and the military — Pakistan's shadowy coalition stages return,” the FT said a crowd of 10,000 chanted “If God asks, we will go for jihad” at a rally he addressed recently.

Mr. Saeed, founder of the banned Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), said he wanted to send a message to India, America and NATO forces that the defence of Pakistan was his main priority.


By claiming the bolded part above, Hafiz Saeed has made it quite clear to even those who have been fudging this issue that indeed LeT and PA are one and the same.

One more thing, this Difaa-e-Pakistan Council reeks of IJI (Islami Jamhuri Ittehad or Islamic Democratic Alliance) party created by the ISI to fight the PPP in the 1988 elections. Lt. Gen. Hamid Gul and Gen. Aslam Beg were responsible for that along with President Ghulam Ishaq Khan and the court case, known as Mehrangate, is still continuing in Pakitsn SC.

Then, Gen. Musharraf created MMA to fight PPP & PML-N.

Now, this 'Difaagate' is the creation of Lt. Gen. Shuja Pasha and Gen. Kiyani. Pakistan has a predictability that is too difficult to miss. The Generals always turn to the Islamist political parties for political support and legitimacy and to the jihadist offshoots of these political parties for terror, genocide, skirmishes and wars. It is a 'combo-offer' from the Islamists to nation-building.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby pankajs » 25 Jan 2012 11:26

shiv wrote:I am also speculating that this new policy of GoI of not even blaming Pakistan let alone punishing Pakistan might be aimed at reinforcing a civil military split. If that is true, I hope it works.


I agree that what unites mango abduls/jihadis and the puke-mil is their hatred for India. However what divides them is the mango abduls/jihadis hatred for amreeka in contrast to army's ties to amreeka.

India, by lying low is allowing the mango abduls/jihadis to focus on the puke-mil ties to amreeka and that is putting pressure on puke-mil. The Hafiz Saeed rally is designed to return the mango abduls/jihadis focus back to India, the eternal enemy and in the process strengthen puke-mil's hand in its battle with amreeka on one side and pak-gov on the other.
Last edited by pankajs on 25 Jan 2012 11:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby vic » 25 Jan 2012 11:29

Re Shiv


It is possible that this GoI policy of keeping silent is re-inforced by some hard action on Pakistani Ground through covert means. So the silence may be very loud where it matters.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby Pranav » 25 Jan 2012 11:32

shiv wrote:Pakstan's narrative is damaged by Indians saying "Hindu terrorists. We are not blaming Pakistan" .


For Paks it is a win-win situation ... if Yindoos blame Paks they will say we are being blamed falsely, it was done by Yindoos to get an excuse to attack. If Yindoos don't blame Paks, they will say, see we told you so, now even Yindoos are forced to admit that they did samjhauta and killed Kurkuray.

As far as Maino and her pit bull Chidu are concerned, they don't go through all these mental contortions. For them, everything is an opportunity to blame Yindoos.
Last edited by Pranav on 25 Jan 2012 11:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby Anujan » 25 Jan 2012 11:32

It is also possible that India centric jihadis are seeing their funding and importance die down as the afghan Taliban take up bulk of the money attention and recruits. This might be a marketing push by LeT to show that they are still relevant. Remember that Mumbai attacks were also to show that they were potent and relevant.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby member_22286 » 25 Jan 2012 11:38

Anujan wrote:It is also possible that India centric jihadis are seeing their funding and importance die down as the afghan Taliban take up bulk of the money attention and recruits. This might be a marketing push by LeT to show that they are still relevant. Remember that Mumbai attacks were also to show that they were potent and relevant.


The Mumbai attacks were also a bait by the PA to attack Pakistan to divert attention.Kiyani was being GUBO'ed by the then US government to take action against the Taliban in SWAT.Look at the timelines then the taliban occupied SWAT and please look at that angle.Such an operation and the logistics associated with it cannot solely be implemented by L-e-T
Last edited by member_22286 on 25 Jan 2012 11:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby rsharma » 25 Jan 2012 11:41

ramana wrote: Might be pearls before swine.


OT , but just curious.. Ramana Saar, you too a fan of Ayn Rand ? :)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby g.sarkar » 25 Jan 2012 11:44

Every one meets everyone!
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120125/j ... 050701.jsp
"ISI chief ‘secretly met’ Musharraf
Islamabad, Jan. 24 (PTI): Pakistan’s ISI chief, Lt Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, held a secret meeting with former President Pervez Musharraf in Dubai and advised him not to return to the country, according to Dawn News channel.
"Gen. Pasha, who has remained very close to the former President, held a meeting with (Musharraf) in Dubai and advised him not to return to the country as the situation is not conducive for his return,” a source was quoted as saying by the channel late last night.
The report said it was not clear whether the meeting was held on the directions of the Pakistan People’s Party-led government or if it was a private meeting.
t said Musharraf, after meeting Pasha, convened a meeting of his All Pakistan Muslim League party on January 25 for reviewing the decision to return to Pakistan.
The report coincided with a resolution passed by the Senate, or upper house of the parliament, that demanded Musharraf’s arrest on his return and the registration of a case of high treason against him for abrogating the Constitution.
Several Pakistani leaders, including interior minister Rehman Malik, have said Musharraf would be arrested if he returns to Pakistan.
Musharraf recently postponed his plans to return to Karachi on January 27. He has been living outside Pakistan since early 2009.
The Dawn News channel said that Pasha enjoys a long history of relations with Musharraf.
During Musharraf’s last year as President in 2008, Pasha was appointed to the key post of director general of military operations......"
Gautam

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby SSridhar » 25 Jan 2012 12:48

Anujan wrote:It is also possible that India centric jihadis are seeing their funding and importance die down as the afghan Taliban take up bulk of the money attention and recruits. This might be a marketing push by LeT to show that they are still relevant. Remember that Mumbai attacks were also to show that they were potent and relevant.

Anujan ji, I have a different take on this 'diffa' affair. I agree with you that there could be a motive for the LeT to show its jihadi cadres that they were still relevant. In fact, that was one reason for the 26/11 attack as well, as the LeT cadres were deserting it for the TTP.

But, I feel that this situation is different. Now, the PA is right behind this move. It is just not LeT but a number of Islamist parties, ex-Generals and hardcore terrorists who are ganging up now under the diffa banner. The PA probably wants to achieve several things in one go and it feels the time for action is ripe now. What are the objectives of the PA right now ? It wants to get rid of the PPP government, install a more acceptable group in PPP's place, leverage the US (using carrots and sticks) to gain primacy in Afghanistan, and keep India out of Afghanistan. These are the issues that most agitate the PA mind right now.

The PA might be feeling that the PPP was not resonating with it at the same frequency and may even be a stumbling block in some of them. Zardari's NFU doctrine, his attempt to tame the ISI by bringing it under civilian control, the quick decision that was made to send the ISI Chief to India immediately after 26/11, Zardari announcing India as not enemy # 1, the acceptance of the provisions of the Kerry-Lugar-Berman bill until PA stepped in, granting of Pakistani visas to CIA agents by-passing the PA and without its knowledge, decision to grant MFN status to India, Gilani's recent needling of the PA etc. have probably pushed the PA into this political action now. They have determined, IMHO, that the PPP government would concede Pakistani position both in Afghanistan and in India. The PA did several things in the last two years to get rid of Zardari but he has survived. It is now the culmination of PA's drastic plans.

There is an urgency to PA's efforts. The PA wants to hold the reins of power when the Afghan situation reaches a climax. That was the coordination meeting that Kayani had with Wen Jiabao recently. They cannot trust Zardari and his government at this crucial hour.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby pankajs » 25 Jan 2012 13:18

I agree.

On Kayani's China visit, we will have to watch for further signals. At the end of 5 days no new project, aid, financing, loan, mil deal, etc. was announced. So it might very well have been a summon.

It is interesting to note the APP release on Kayani's visit to China states "The COAS reiterated that Pakistan’s objective is to have a peaceful and stable Afghanistan". The Xinhua release talks not only of sovereignty but also of territorial integrity of pukistan. On the other hand it is silent on Afganistan and pukistan's role in it.

The line on sovereignty was expected given the recent border incident and the uproar that followed. But why reference to "territorial integrity of pukistan" and why no mention of pukistan's role in "stabilizing" Afganistan?

We will have to wait for the answers.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby pankajs » 25 Jan 2012 14:41

Senate session: Shoot down US drones, urge lawmakers
ISLAMABAD: The government faced a variety of criticisms during the Senate session on Tuesday, with senators across party lines urging the government first and foremost to implement the recommendation of the parliamentary committee on national security to shoot down US Predators entering Pakistani territory. They were lodging their protest over the recent drone strikes in North Waziristan which allegedly killed innocent citizens.

“Don’t make tall claims if you (government) don’t have the courage to stop drone strikes,” said Leader of the Opposition in the Senate Maulana Abdul Ghafoor Haideri. Speaking on a point of order he said, “If the civilian government and military leadership army had no courage to stop drone strikes then they should at least lodge a case against US-led forces in an international court for violating Pakistan’s sovereignty.”

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby shiv » 25 Jan 2012 14:53

pankajs wrote:The Hafiz Saeed rally is designed to return the mango abduls/jihadis focus back to India, the eternal enemy and in the process strengthen puke-mil's hand in its battle with amreeka on one side and pak-gov on the other.


Definitely. But this could mean good news for India. If the JuD/LeT are openly supported by the army (as opposed to the covert/denied support prior to 26/11) then any LeT action is going to get blamed on army so army will tie down LeT from taking rash action that damages its interests. It's interests can be damaged if India develops brain fever and actually attacks Pakistan (could happen in mosquito season)

More intriguingly to me, Madame Fair wrote in an article discussed on here a couple of months ago that LeT/JuD are organizations that do social work and have grass roots support in Pakistan. On the other hand the civilians who are singing Aman ki Tamasha in chorus with India are getting really really cheeky about opposing the army and India is waltzing with them. I wonder if they would do that if they did not themselves sense some grass roots support from the so called "moderate Pakistanis" that every Paki claims exists (because 99.004 % of them do not vote for Islamists).

The question is where does the anti-India-pro-army split (army/LeT/JuD) of Pakistan lie versus the anti-army-anti-USA factions ("civilian" self proclaimed moderate)

I thought the Paki army could easily crush the civilian leadership any day. But if the army is not doing that it can only mean
1. They are lying low for unknown reasons
2. They realise they do not have the support of the people who will ask them to kick US butt.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby pankajs » 25 Jan 2012 14:56

Pentagon rejects Pakistan army claim on Nato blunder
WASHINGTON: The United States rejected Monday the findings of a Pakistani probe into Nato air strikes that killed 24 Pakistani soldiers in late November, saying the investigation ignored the fact that “mistakes” were made on both sides.
....
“The statement that this was an unprovoked attack by US forces is simply false,” said Navy Captain Kirby. “It was not an unprovoked attack,” he said. “There were errors made by both sides here.”
....
Kirby said the Pentagon was “100 percent” behind the findings of the investigation report released last month by the US military.

That report, while acknowledging some responsibility in the bombing of one or two Pakistani border posts, argued that Nato troops had fired in “self-defense” after being shot at by “heavy weapons and mortar” from an “unidentified” source in a remote area infiltrated by Taliban organizations.
....
The crisis in US-Pakistani relations has been overshadowed by a stand-off between the courts and the civilian government that analysts believe could force early elections in Pakistan within months.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby Neela » 25 Jan 2012 16:30

shiv wrote:
Pranav wrote:
That is not Pakistan's narrative.

Pakistan's narrative is: "India and Hindus are out to destroy Pakistan and terror by Hindu extremists in India is blamed on Muslims and Pakistanis" Pakistan's narrative is reinforced every time India blames Pakistan and Pakistan blames India back by saying "Maybe Hindu terrorists but Pakistan is being falsely implicated"

Pakstan's narrative is damaged by Indians saying "Hindu terrorists. We are not blaming Pakistan" .

I am not endorsing this. I do not endorse it. But this seems to be the GoI's new policy in addition to the existing Pakistan policy of never attacking Pakistan for a terrorist attack. I am also speculating that this new policy of GoI of not even blaming Pakistan let alone punishing Pakistan might be aimed at reinforcing a civil military split. If that is true, I hope it works.



There are two fundamental issues that I see with this line of argument.

1. GoI policy of not responding to terrorist attacks basically have left Indian citizens to fend for themselves/at the mercy of _Islamic Jihad_ motivated terrorists. If Shiv's idea is what GoI has in mind, we should have seen a massive improvement in terms of preventive mechanisms. We have now had what, some 30 years of these _Islamic_jihad_motivated_cowardly_pu$$ies_ attacking? And we still seem to not to prevent a next attack. Yes, there could be several attacks that were prevented but I am pretty sure that something like Mumbai 26/11 would have buried this policy , if it ever were one.
Surely you cannot call it a plan when un-armed civilians are left to face cowards with guns and bombs and babus calling it " It is all working to plan onlee"

2. Blaming it on HIndu terror - I am not sure this can be considered at all. This would have the Police and Home affairs ministry worried. These guys will say to MEA "Nice try folks, but we already have enough problems , thank you very much".
Why would they want this additional headache? And what evidence have they to show for Hindu terror when they face the press or BJP MPs.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 15 Jan 201

Postby shiv » 25 Jan 2012 17:24

Neela wrote:Surely you cannot call it a plan when un-armed civilians are left to face cowards with guns and bombs and babus calling it " It is all working to plan onlee"

If you look at Indian retaliation against attacks since the parliament attack, there seems to be a plan not to hit Pakistan. Oh the armed forces are planning allright - but the GoI has no intention of hitting Pakistan. But the "do not hit back" plan has never been announced publicly.

Not even blaming Pakistan is a new feature of the plan.

Even I don't know whether I am being serious or not, but here's a thought. Pakistan clearly has a "sub-class" of people who don't speak in he same voice as the army or government. I am reminded of the way Kasab's home village and parents were discovered and made public even as the Paki government was denying that he was a Paki and then the charade of agreeing to send Shuja Pasha to India and them backing out on army pressure.

Weird things happen and India's "plan" (according to me) never to hit Pakistan belongs in there with those weird things. There is likely to be some Paki gallery that India is playing to. The fact that India is not making the exact identity of that gallery public indicates that either the GoI has "its fingers crossed" that al will be vel, or that exposing the real identities of those with whom GoI is conducting parleys would endanger their safety.

The problem is that the latter possibility looks all mysterious and Chankian, while the former seems more likely, theer may be no moderate gallery in Pakistan. After all whom could the GoI be talking to that the ISI does not know about? But in my mind there is an element of "high hopes" that the GoI actually is in touch with some senior Pakistan army people who are serving as a guide. But we will know that only when the next terror attack occurs. It is possible to concoct any story about policy and Chankianness until a terrorist attack occurs. After that all theories about GoI plans will be reset to zero.

Did you read the news that the Khan films 3 Idiots and a couple of others are making record breaking numbers of crores in Pakistan? exactly how is the money being made? Is Pakistan actually paying up front? Any idea anyone? But the news and crore numbers are in all the media in India.

Tomorrow is Republic day. I hope for a safe passing of the day with smiles on all faces. The GoI will have some explaining to do if we have another attack. Especially if it gets blamed on Hindu terror and the need to continue talks with Pakistan.


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