Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

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Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

Postby Anujan » 30 Mar 2012 11:20

Last page of previous thread.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6325&start=2840

________________________________________________________
The following links are background articles on Pakistan.

UNDERSTANDING PAKISTAN:


Jinnah's Pakistan: An Interview with MA Jinnah, and how the Pakistan of Yesterday is the Pakistan of Today
http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html

http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/012809Tellis.pdf

The above is the testimony of Ashley Tellis on Jan 28th 2009, to the US Senate Homeland Security Committee on LeT's global role. It is a good articulation of LeT's past and future trends.

Know Your Pakistan
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... /Shiv.html

The Monkey Trap: A synopsis of Indo-Pak relations
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... ayyam.html

PAKISTAN-FAILED STATE: an ebook that owes its origin and existence to BRF.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/EBOOKS/pfs.pdf

Whither Pakistan ? Growing Instability and Implications for India: an IDSA e-Book, July 2010
http://idsa.in/book/WhitherPakistan

A landmark article that demolishes myths built up about Pakistan
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers8/paper710.html

Pakistani Role in Terrorism Against the U.S.A
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... yanan.html

Pakistani Education, or how Pakistan became what it is: Curricula and textbooks in Pakistan
http://www.sdpi.org/publications/public ... 6-34.html#

Making Enemies, Creating Conflict: Pakistan's Crises of State and Society. A book written by Pakistanis on Pakistan.
http://members.tripod.com/~no_nukes_sa/Contents.html

Should Pakistan Be Broken Up? by Gul Agha
http://pakistan70.tripod.com/gul.html

Alden Pyle in Pakistan, Part I
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2009/12/ald ... art-1.html

Prof. Walter Russell Mead, "Pakistan's Failed National Strategy"
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... -strategy/

"Pakistan Is", by Barry Bearak in New York Times Magazine, December 7, 2003.
Brings out succinctly various facets of Pakistani perfidy, obsession, fundamentalism etc.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... nted=print

PAKISTAN & TERRORISM:

The Ideologies of South Asian Jihadi Groups (Laskar-e-Taiba)
By Hussein Haqqani (journalist and Pak ambassador to US)
http://www.futureofmuslimworld.com/rese ... detail.asp

Lashkar-e-Taiba: Past Operations and Future Prospects, Stephen Tankel, April 2011
New America Foundation
http://newamerica.net/sites/newamerica. ... _LeT_0.pdf

Pakistani sponsoring of Terrorism
http://www.geocities.com/charcha_2000/
http://pak-terror.freeservers.com/Terro ... y_Tool.htm

Terror Map: The Pakistani Hand
http://sify.com/news/specials/terrormap/?vsv=TopHP1

Ethnic cleansing in Pakistan - a statistical analysis
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... idhar.html

A chronicle of genocide by the Pakistan army
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

Documentary video evidence of Pakistani genocide in Bangladesh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x-94U1bVUQ
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EBKlIUbpc ... re=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sMg9Ly9nK0g
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xwwPbkyZV ... re=related

Inside Jihad - How Pakistan sponsors terrorists in India
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/ ... r_sb1.html

Pakistan's Role in the Kashmir Insurgency - Op-ed by Rand's Peter Chalk
http://www.rand.org/hot/op-eds/090101JIR.html

Alden Pyle in Pakistan, Part II
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2009/12/ald ... -upon.html

BEYOND MADRASAS: ASSESSING THE LINKS BETWEEN EDUCATION AND MILITANCY IN PAKISTAN
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/ ... nthrop.pdf

Pakistani Military Officers' Links with Jihadist Organizations
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5587.htm

PAKISTAN TODAY:

On the Frontier of Apocalypse: Christopher Hitchens seminal article on Pakistan today
http://newsstuff.0catch.com/article5.htm

http://meaindia.nic.in/bestoftheweb/2002/10/14bow2.htm

A Slender Reed in Pakistan - Editorial in the Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p08s03-comv.html

Seymour Hersh Interview
http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_hersh.html

Pakistan's Nuclear Crimes (Wash. Post editorial)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy ... 2-2004Feb4

http://www.indiadefence.com/LOA07Aug04.htm

The Battle for Pakistan: Militancy and Conflict in Pakistan's Tribal Regions
http://counterterrorism.newamerica.net/ ... r_pakistan

BOOK REVIEW Fulcrum of Evil: ISI-CIA-Al Qaeda Nexus
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r1844.html

Article from Vinni Capelli - Foreign Policy Research Institute:
Containing Pakistan: Engaging the Raja-Mandala in South-Central Asia
http://www.fpri.org/orbis/5101/cappelli ... kistan.pdf

The videos are from this documentary: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/taliban/

A bomb at all cost By Ahmad Faruqui - a candid admission of the wars that Pakistan started against India.

Popular support for suicide bombings in pakistan.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 008_pg12_1
Survey by university students in karachi say 50% of respondents support suicide bombings in kashmir.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OWsmJIwe9Q4
"Descent into Chaos"
UC Berkeley Conversations with History, host Harry Kreisler talking with Pakistani Journalist Ahmed Rashid. 59 minutes 120 MB. It sums up Pakistan and lays bare all Pakistan's terrorist support and proliferation activities. **Note - he wants the US to solve Pakistan's Kashmir problem.

Pakistan on the brink: Video Link (must download)


MISCELLANEOUS

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto telling Bangladeshis to "Go to Hell": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dsxfyxa ... re=related

IDSA's weekly summary of Pak Urdu Press:

http://www.idsa.in/pup
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Five installment series by Kapil Komireddi published in Frum Forum

Part I. Nov 16, 2009. “Pakistan In Crisis”.

Part II. Nov 18. 2009. “Pakistan: Origins of A Failed State”.

Part III. Nov 18, 2009. “Pakistan: It Could Not Succeed Unless India Failed”.

Part IV. Dec 06, 2009. “Pakistan: A Mecca for Radical Islam”.

Part V. Dec. 07, 2009. “Pakistan’s Army: Building a Nation for Jihad

A perceptive blog on Pakistan: http://pak-watch.blogspot.com/

Declassified documents from US National Archives on Pakistan:

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/pakistan/pakistan.htm
_______________________________________________

Admission of state sponsored terrorism by Pakistani authorities


see this Der Spigel Interview where Musharraf admits to that.

On 7th Nov in TimesNow Channel, Tasneem Noorani, a former Secretary of the Pakistani Interior Ministry, openly said that.

Kiyani called the Haqqanis as strategic assets.

In Dec. 2008, President Zardari himself admitted to ISI helping LeT. He said,"The links between the Inter-Services Intelligence Agency and the LeT were developed in the old days when dictators used to run the country. After the 9/11 terror attacks in the US, things have changed to a great extent"

In an address to bureaucrats in July 2009, President Zardari said: "Militants and extremists were deliberately created and nurtured as a policy to achieve some short-term tactical objectives. Let us be truthful to ourselves and make a candid admission of the realities. The terrorists of today were the heroes of yesteryears until 9/11 occurred and they began to haunt us as well"

In Nov. 2009, Prime Minister Gilani admitted to the support for terrorism by Musharraf as "running with the hares and hunting with the hounds".

When Bush warned the Pakistanis in August 2008 of their support to Al Qaeda, Afrasiab Khattak, President of Awami National Party (ANP) said this: "The question is why it has taken the Americans so long to see what the ISI is doing. We’ve been telling them for years but they wouldn’t buy it.". See here.

In an interview to the BBC as far back as on Feb. 13, 1994, Benazir Bhutto admitted how she handed over to Rajiv Gandhi the complete list of Sikh activists colluding with the ISI in terrorism in the Punjab. Later, Nawaz Sharif described this interview as a faux pas.

Apart from these, of course, numerous Pakistani commentators, analysts, and editors have openly admitted to terror as a state policy.

________________________________________________________________________

A Venn diagram, by Shiv, to illustrate the commonality and difference between "bad Taliban" and Jinnah's Pakistan.


________________________________________________________________________

Why Did Pakistan's Spy Chief Make a Secret Trip to China?
Pasha's China trip has been interpreted by some as a tacit act of defiance—a reminder to his American counterparts that the Pakistanis can always look east to their “all-weather” friend across the Himalayas rather than bend the knee to the will of the U.S.

But it also may be a sign of China's growing disquiet with Pakistan. Another top-ranking Pakistani military officer, Lt. Gen Wahid Arshad, had already conducted a considerable tour of China just weeks ago in a bid to improve ties. A few analysts have suggested that Pasha's trip — couched in vague terms about building a “broad-based strategic dialogue” — may have been less a visit and more of a summons.

Chinese officials claimed the attacks in Kashgar were authored by the shadowy East Turkestan Islamic Movement, a jihadist organization of mostly ethnic Uighurs, a Turkic Muslim minority that comprises the majority in the far-western Chinese region of Xinjiang. China routinely invokes the specter of the terrorist threat when cracking down on dissent in the restive region. Yet disturbances there tend to be triggered more often by social discontent — many Uighurs chafe at state policies they deem discriminatory and marginalizing — than militant connivance. Pasha's presence in Beijing may mark Beijing's continued efforts to root out Uighur dissidents and sympathizers beyond China's borders, as it has already done in Kazakhstan.

Youtube video: Bilatakalluf with Tahif Gora: Tarek Fateh dissects with Pakjabi society and shows how its war-impotent Army loots the common Pakistani (Jan 13, 2012)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Anujan » 30 Mar 2012 11:22

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/world/asia/on-run-bin-laden-had-4-children-and-5-houses-a-wife-says.html

On the Run, Bin Laden Had 4 Children and 5 Houses, a Wife Says

Osama bin Laden spent nine years on the run in Pakistan after the Sept. 11 attacks, during which time he moved among five safe houses and fathered four children, at least two of whom were born in a government hospital, his youngest wife has told Pakistani investigators.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Gaurav_S » 30 Mar 2012 14:38

US asked to help Pakistan overcome energy crisis

The LCCI President said that Pakistan needs extra-ordinary cooperation {Wonder what this extra-ordinary cooperation means?}from the United States as it was a frontline ally with the United States while facing the brunt of war on terror even today when the rest of the world is on the path to progress and prosperity
:rotfl:

BTW, see comment put by a honhaar abdul

Now our business community is begging / requesting US for their problems. Respected gentleman, generating electricity is not a ROCKET science for which your are asking US. You people had enough wealth made from this soil that you people can alone built power generating plants with the help of anyone in the world market, then why involving US, as they are already too much into our affairs. For Allah sake, have some sincere thinking about it.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby JohnTitor » 30 Mar 2012 17:04

Anujan wrote:Pakistan on the brink: Video Link (must download)

The above link is down. The file deleted apparently. Any chance someone has another link? Thanks

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby saip » 30 Mar 2012 19:47

There are nearly 200 million pigs in pakiland. And they have been saying there were only 170 mil. Now all those so called statistics are a bunch of lies. Amazing!

Link

But why do they quote Times of India for their population?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Mar 2012 20:23

The TOI quotes Pakistan's "The News".

My blog post on this topic, the substance of which is below:
http://observingliberalpakistan.blogspo ... ation.html

I don't trust Pakistani news sources and numbers, but assuming that the numbers are correct, compare e.g., with the UN estimates:

Year Value
1995 127,347,000
2000 144,522,000
2005 158,645,000
2010 173,593,000
2015 189,648,000

i.e., Pakistan wasn't supposed to reach 192 million even in 2015.

Pakistan's exploding population may be explained by its exploding population. More seriously, it makes me wonder even more how the Pakistan economy operates.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby saip » 30 Mar 2012 20:27

At the rate they are breeding they will reach 300 mil by 2025. That is some concentration of pork!
Last edited by saip on 30 Mar 2012 22:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Mar 2012 20:37

http://esa.un.org/unpd/wpp/unpp/panel_population.htm
There are low, medium, high, and constant fertility population projections available there for all countries, including Pakistan. Even in the high projection, Pakistan reaches 191 million only in 2015.

The constant fertility projection is as follows, which means that fertility in Pakistan can only be increasing - i.e., more surviving children per woman.

Year Pop('000s)
1995 127347
2000 144522
2005 158645
2010 173593
2015 192422
2020 213758
2025 237213
2030 261599
2035 287169
2040 314904
2045 345569
2050 379242

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby ramana » 30 Mar 2012 20:38

Pakistan addicted to using terrorist groups against India: US


The reality is US is addicted to TSP. The addiction is with the Anglo-Saxon West thinking that they can use TSP to checkmate India since before the Partition in 1947.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 30 Mar 2012 21:02

saip wrote:At the rate they are breeding they will reach 300 mil by 2025. That is some concentration pork!

Looks like democide of Sindhis and Balochis is a fait accompli. So we can't expect much out of Sindhi and Balochi sentiments.

Imperative to keep arms out of their hands. This is Hobbes's laboratory.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby A_Gupta » 30 Mar 2012 22:07

Pakistan's GDP (2011) is estimated to be $488 billion (PPP) and per capita income is $2800 (PPP) (e.g., per the CIA World web site). This corresponds to a estimated population of 174 million (which is the UN estimate).

If Pakistan's GDP is correct, but population is 192 million, then the per capita income is $2540 and not $2800, i.e,. about 10% less.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby saip » 30 Mar 2012 22:41

Actually the population is 198 mil when you include the missing districts. Then the per capita becomes $2465

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Sudip » 30 Mar 2012 22:42

Former Mrs. Pakistan used her striking appearance to scam California families

Jawad used the proceeds from the loan-modification and investment scams to buy plastic surgery for Saman, as well as to pay for his Mercedes and the mortgage on the $2.2 million house they own in the Almaden Hills, the prosecutor said.
Last edited by Sudip on 30 Mar 2012 23:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby svinayak » 30 Mar 2012 23:01

ramana wrote:Pakistan addicted to using terrorist groups against India: US


The reality is US is addicted to TSP. The addiction is with the Anglo-Saxon West thinking that they can use TSP to checkmate India since before the Partition in 1947.

UK used the Muslim league to checkmate the INC and rest of the population - Hindus. This was 100 years ago
Pakistan is just a manifestation of that policy.

After independence the state of Pakistan was used to sidetrack India during the cold war.
After the cold war the terrorism was used against India to keep it inside the region. Pakistan was a tool to oppose India in all international forum. This strategy was to reduce Indian influence which grew during the cold war after independence. This 'growing influence' of India is seen as a direct threat by UK. US also refers to Indian 'soft power' even now in 2011. They have created different tools to reduce this soft power. Pakistan is one of them.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 31 Mar 2012 00:13

saip wrote:Actually the population is 198 mil when you include the missing districts. Then the per capita becomes $2465


It will be great if thy reach 400 Million By 2035. Poaqapulation preassure on soil must increase to unbreathable level. India will be happy to supply the onions free for them.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby ramana » 31 Mar 2012 00:59

Sudip, Crooks come in all types not just Pakis. That article was stereo-typing.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Shaashtanga » 31 Mar 2012 01:01

Fake Jihadi

http://www.viewpointonline.net/fake-jihadi.html

At the end of the story it says that - "the ‘decorated’ general picked up a quarrel with an Indian diplomat over a minor car accident. The diplomat took out his shoe and beat the hell out of the jehadi general." - Does anyone know who this Indian diplomat was who beat the hell out of Gullu with his shoe?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby A_Gupta » 31 Mar 2012 01:37

http://www.pap.org.pk/statistics/population.htm#tab1.3

What is now Pakistan had a population of 19.3 million in 1911. Now it has 192+ million - a 10-fold increase in 100 years!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby jrjrao » 31 Mar 2012 01:57

Fai sentenced to 2 years in prison:

Kashmir activist who lied about his links to Pakistan’s spy service sentenced in Va.
Fai apologized for his actions in court (in order to get leniency). After the hearing outside the courthouse (like a typical lyin' Paki), he struck a slightly more defiant tone.

“I fight a worthy fight — freedom for Kashmir. I sacrifice for a worthy cause — independence for Kashmir,” Fai said.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Gordon Kromberg argued that Fai essentially ran a “false flag” operation for the ISI and that he operated the Kashmiri American Council as a front for Pakistan for 20 years.

“Everything he did for the KAC for the last 20 years is a fraud,” Kromberg said.


..Kromberg said it’s ludicrous to believe that Fai took $3.5 million from the ISI with no strings attached. And he said the evidence seized in the case shows that Fai was under the direct control of the ISI, submitting budgets to them and facing reprimands when he took actions that displeased them.

In court papers, Kromberg also said Fai was “less than forthright” after his guilty plea in briefing authorities about his connections to the Muslim Brotherhood.

Ginsberg (Fai's attorney) also noted that Fai drew letters of support not only from the Pakistani and Kashmiri communities, but also from some in India, including the grandson of Mohandas Gandhi. :roll:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby ramana » 31 Mar 2012 02:05

How come David Headley got more sentence while this guy got of lightly?

Can India ask for his extradition for helping ISI plan activites in India?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby brihaspati » 31 Mar 2012 03:27

On this thread it is particularly curious to repeatedly come across the argument "trade decreases conflict/chance of war". We had a long debate with a certain poster who apparently no longere visits us on the forum about this. He had quoted and used a certain paper and scholar who apparently established forever and beyond any doubt that trade between two competing powers causes reduction in conflict between them.

The original paper actually showed correlation or co-movement based on a limited data-set, and the author himself pointed out that his data could not and should not be used to claim "causality".

Subsequent work was quoted by me which used Granger causality concepts and a much larger data set to show that "causality" was apparently bi-drectional - that is increase of trade could push both towards and away from conflicts. The notable pairs where trade appeared to cause increased conflict or war - included India-Pakistan.

People should do their own research on this - and try to carefully distinguish between elasticity/correlation/co-movement from causality.

Parroting an argument based on flimsy and ancient claims not subsequently supported by research is part of a political agenda that our own should not fall for - especially where it concerns Pakistan.

What is missing in the conflict-trade debates is the consideration of ideological or religious profiling of national decisions at the gov level [and of course gov level decisions are related to institutions involving segments of populations lowerd own in the hierarchy].

Thus for Pakistan, it is entirely possible that there are such powerful institutions within the country, that can also mobilize the nation towards support for war with India - who are "irrational" from the so-called profit-maximization viewpoint, and who feel threatened with growth of trade with India or who perhaps even be super-rational.

The superrationality of Pakis in this case would be the possible calculation that increasing atrocities and greater conflicts would lead to greater willingness from Indian side to concede more in trade and resource transfers - or even increasing trade [at the moment increasing trade is indeed a loss-making project for Paki domestic industry] on more favourable terms.

Both of these factors would mean Pakis must carry on the conflict and create atrocities regularly to obtain what they want economically from India. Or trade will increase conflict.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 31 Mar 2012 04:52

Dont worry Langar is Free at Wagha
Pakistan 2012-13 wheat output falls 5 per cent: USDA report

KARACHI: According to a report issued by a US Department of Agriculture attaché in Pakistan, the country’s wheat production for the year 2012-13 has fallen five per cent relative to the previous year’s output.
“Pakistan’s wheat production in marketing year 2012/13 (May/April) is estimated at 23 million tonnes, down 5 per cent relative to previous year’s record harvest of 24.2 million tonnes. Wheat area harvested is witnessing a declining trend and has decreased by 5 per cent during the last two years,” says the report.It adds: “In MY2012/13 Pakistan is forecast to export 300,000 tonnes of wheat. Pakistan’s MY 2011/2012 rice production is estimated at 6.5 million tonnes, 30 per cent higher than the 2010/11 flood affected production level of 5 million tonnes. MY 2012/13 production is forecast at 6.8 million tonnes.Rice exports in MY 2012/13 are projected at 4 million tonnes based on the expectation of a good harvest.”

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2012 06:19

Sudip wrote:Former Mrs. Pakistan used her striking appearance to scam California families

Jawad used the proceeds from the loan-modification and investment scams to buy plastic surgery for Saman, as well as to pay for his Mercedes and the mortgage on the $2.2 million house they own in the Almaden Hills, the prosecutor said.


Amazing how TFTAs can take other TFTAs for a ride because of they admire other TFTAs.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2012 06:21

Jhujar wrote:It will be great if thy reach 400 Million By 2035. Poaqapulation preassure on soil must increase to unbreathable level. India will be happy to supply the onions free for them.


Population+qopulation=Poaqopulation

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2012 06:48

brihaspati wrote:Thus for Pakistan, it is entirely possible that there are such powerful institutions within the country, that can also mobilize the nation towards support for war with India - who are "irrational" from the so-called profit-maximization viewpoint, and who feel threatened with growth of trade with India or who perhaps even be super-rational.

The superrationality of Pakis in this case would be the possible calculation that increasing atrocities and greater conflicts would lead to greater willingness from Indian side to concede more in trade and resource transfers - or even increasing trade [at the moment increasing trade is indeed a loss-making project for Paki domestic industry] on more favourable terms.

Both of these factors would mean Pakis must carry on the conflict and create atrocities regularly to obtain what they want economically from India. Or trade will increase conflict.


Here is my take on this.

I believe that there is a premise (among Indian government, diplomatic and civil circles) that 'Pakistani nationalism" is manufactured nationalism and allegiance to Pakistan as a well formed entity has been sought to be "forced" by giving prominence to a narrow brand of Sunni Islam imposed by a group who control the Pakistani army. This, I believe, is considered to be the "central core" of the Pakistan premise and this central core has had the coercive means to pull in outliers within Pakistan who do not exactly conform to the core premise of Pakistan.

The assumption here is that the people who support the central core premise of Pakistan are a separate group from "outliers" who are less convinced of the core premise of Pakistan as a nation state. All trade and "concessions" are aimed at splitting away the "outliers" from the core supporters of the Pakistan premise. Note that the Pakistan army is a significant part of the "core premise" of Pakistan so all "trade", "track two" and "concessions" will come crashing down if there is a military coup.

I can see your point which seems to imply that it is pure snake oil to believe that Pakistan consists of supporters of a central core premise and outliers. They are all variants for the same poisonous ideology that cannot be trusted and has shown a historic ability to bend and twist while staying on course to destroy all competing minds. But I get the sense that the "border" you are drawing between India and Pakistan is not the border that we see on maps but a virtual border between Islam and non Islam. It seems to me that you believe that the international border between India and Pakistan is one that should be maintained in part to hold back the poison, and that the poison should be fought without believing that there is a "core group" and "outliers" who can somehow be "weaned away". The idea I get from some of your posts is that "weaning away" from Islam is not possible. That game is ruled out. Only opposition and a willingness to impose an equal and opposite degree of violence has a chance of working.
Last edited by shiv on 31 Mar 2012 06:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 31 Mar 2012 06:49

shiv wrote:
Jhujar wrote:It will be great if thy reach 400 Million By 2035. Poaqapulation preassure on soil must increase to unbreathable level. India will be happy to supply the onions free for them.

Population+qopulation=Poaqopulation


:lol:
Producing Paaqditional Pure Pious Poaqopulous Poarkosplians with 2.72% Poaqannual Proaqreaction Percentage .

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Kakkaji » 31 Mar 2012 06:54

From the 'Such Gup' section of this week's TFT:

Such Gup

Killjoys

A young woman reporter applied for an interview with Maulana, the leader of a prominent political party, for a private television channel. Maulana granted the interview to her. When she arrived at the appointed time and place, she was dressed in a long shirt (kameez), jeans and a dopatta. No one could have accused her of impropriety in her dress code. However, having had one look at her, Maulana refused to do the interview with her. Crestfallen, the young woman returned empty-handed. Maulana told his media team that he did not wish to appear on television being interviewed by a young woman in jeans, however thoroughly covered up she may have been, and worst of all, a pair of bracelets or pazaibs around her ankles. Maulana then rang up the young woman's boss, a well-known killjoy, and asked how it was that he had "jeans-clad women wearing anklets" in his employ. The poor woman was promptly served with a notice and may be at risk of losing her job.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby brihaspati » 31 Mar 2012 07:57

shiv wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Thus for Pakistan, it is entirely possible that there are such powerful institutions within the country, that can also mobilize the nation towards support for war with India - who are "irrational" from the so-called profit-maximization viewpoint, and who feel threatened with growth of trade with India or who perhaps even be super-rational.

The superrationality of Pakis in this case would be the possible calculation that increasing atrocities and greater conflicts would lead to greater willingness from Indian side to concede more in trade and resource transfers - or even increasing trade [at the moment increasing trade is indeed a loss-making project for Paki domestic industry] on more favourable terms.

Both of these factors would mean Pakis must carry on the conflict and create atrocities regularly to obtain what they want economically from India. Or trade will increase conflict.


Here is my take on this.

I believe that there is a premise (among Indian government, diplomatic and civil circles) that 'Pakistani nationalism" is manufactured nationalism and allegiance to Pakistan as a well formed entity has been sought to be "forced" by giving prominence to a narrow brand of Sunni Islam imposed by a group who control the Pakistani army. This, I believe, is considered to be the "central core" of the Pakistan premise and this central core has had the coercive means to pull in outliers within Pakistan who do not exactly conform to the core premise of Pakistan.

The assumption here is that the people who support the central core premise of Pakistan are a separate group from "outliers" who are less convinced of the core premise of Pakistan as a nation state. All trade and "concessions" are aimed at splitting away the "outliers" from the core supporters of the Pakistan premise. Note that the Pakistan army is a significant part of the "core premise" of Pakistan so all "trade", "track two" and "concessions" will come crashing down if there is a military coup.

I can see your point which seems to imply that it is pure snake oil to believe that Pakistan consists of supporters of a central core premise and outliers. They are all variants for the same poisonous ideology that cannot be trusted and has shown a historic ability to bend and twist while staying on course to destroy all competing minds. But I get the sense that the "border" you are drawing between India and Pakistan is not the border that we see on maps but a virtual border between Islam and non Islam. It seems to me that you believe that the international border between India and Pakistan is one that should be maintained in part to hold back the poison, and that the poison should be fought without believing that there is a "core group" and "outliers" who can somehow be "weaned away". The idea I get from some of your posts is that "weaning away" from Islam is not possible. That game is ruled out. Only opposition and a willingness to impose an equal and opposite degree of violence has a chance of working.


On the contrary - I have been an advocate of the possibility of "weaning away" right from the start of my presence on the forum. In contrast to many others, I have consistently suggested that "weaning away" is not only a possibility but also a necessity. Moreover I have been most caustic in suggesting that the real psychology that drives overt Pakiphilia and excessive sikularism is a deep fear and hatred of the Muslim and a not-so-unexpected matching secret admiration for Islam. You must be aware from my many postings that I have suggested that Partition was aimed at shedding the unwanted Muslim and maintaining a manageable Muslim population useful as captive manipulation pool for electoral purposes.

Sikular attitude towards Pakistan is immediatley exposed whenever the talk comes up of reabsorbing the Paki aam Muslim within an integrated Indian sovereignty - then there is first the shocked reaction of - no way, not again! and then the mumbling excuses of India-does-not-favour-imperialism etc.

Yes you are correct in estimating that I do not recognize international borders as they exist now - as a permanent border. But this is old news - long ago I wrote more explicitly about this. For me, borders are temporrary spatio-temporal compromises of larger geopolitical interests and identities. On the other hand I do not hold the current physical borders as containment of poison - for the underlying theological institutional mechanism lies on both sides of the border.

The difference from the so-called trade-based or organic/evolutionary/gentle-persuasion strategies of weaning away and my line is that - I have already concluded that weaning away is only possible under delegitimization and destruction of the theological institutional networks that sustain and reproduce jihad in various forms flexibly.

For Pakistan, as I have repeated many times before, therefore, my projection was destruction of all the powers, structures and therefore the state - which protect and backup the mullahcracy and the institutional mechanisms. For this we need sovereignty over that territory and its peoples, and after that it will be a systematic process of elimination of the institutions - without any compromise at all. Only after that it is possible to wean Muslims away because the very choice to move away needs to be given and protected.

Without soverignty neither the choice nor the protection of choice can be ensured. I would also like to destroy the very structure on which mullahcracy stands in alliance with feudalism and the army - by promising land redistribution and implementing it too.

As I have said many time before, I have lived among Muslims and would have no fear in living among Muslims, and I do have the confidence of being able to turn things around in that domain, if we are also at the same time confident about eliminating the mullah and his institutional mechanisms of survival and state patronage. So your surmise that I make no distinction among the "poisoned" is not true. I know exactly what the anti-theological-establishment-subversive forces within the Muslim community are - that once guided into proper channels and protected under state supervision - will literally beat mullahs into a pulp. On either side of the border - no mullahcracy would have survived if the respective states did not go all out to protect them for their own dark political needs.

There can be a post-Islamic society, and India can ensure that society moves beyond being concerned with Islam at all.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby anupmisra » 31 Mar 2012 08:20

Gurudwara demolished in pigistan
Land mafia knocks over historical Sikh temple in Mardan

Over 150-year old historical temple of Baba Karam Singh was demolished overnight by the land mafia in Mardan


Paging ADRoy, Naqvi & Co.
Land mafia in that gutterland means the local maulvi.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby anupmisra » 31 Mar 2012 08:24

Kakkaji wrote:Such Gup

The poor woman was promptly served with a notice and may be at risk of losing her job.


AoA. The land of the pigs is hurtling downhill at break neck speed and the pigs are enjoying the rush.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2012 08:43

A_Gupta wrote:http://www.pap.org.pk/statistics/population.htm#tab1.3

What is now Pakistan had a population of 19.3 million in 1911. Now it has 192+ million - a 10-fold increase in 100 years!


That link has a table that is funny in many ways.

In the first place Pakis have preserved and maintained jati based inequities with the exception of making "Muslim" and the highest caste. Since the pious Sunni Muslims of Pakistan have no terminology to refer to social groups they have maintained they use terminology from the Indian constitution. So from left to right the people of Pakistan are classified as

Muslim - Christian - Hindu_(jati) - Qadiani - Scheduled_cast(sic) - others

The table below that is as pathetic. It reads:

Blind - deaf&mute - crippled - insane :D - Mentally retarded - having more than one disability

But being non Muslim in Pakistan is the same as being blind+deaf-mute+insane+ mentally retarded no? Or is there a difference?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby abhijitm » 31 Mar 2012 09:16

saip wrote:Actually the population is 198 mil when you include the missing districts. Then the per capita becomes $2465

I always believe that guesstimated unofficial population of pigistan is currently approx 250 mil. This is considering the habitable land, poverty, illiteracy and rate of human production etc.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby gakakkad » 31 Mar 2012 09:21

based on their comsumption stats ,elec generation , literacy stats etc , their gdp can't be more than 150b .. the quality of life is about as bad a NoKo .. perhaps worse.. so 150b would be a generous estimate for their present real gdp ..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby shiv » 31 Mar 2012 09:24

A_Gupta wrote:Pakistan's GDP (2011) is estimated to be $488 billion (PPP) and per capita income is $2800 (PPP) (e.g., per the CIA World web site). This corresponds to a estimated population of 174 million (which is the UN estimate).

If Pakistan's GDP is correct, but population is 192 million, then the per capita income is $2540 and not $2800, i.e,. about 10% less.

This should be a lesson to Pakis. they should not have wavered from their path of avoiding a census for 30 years. No more. They should have no more "censuses" which is a kafir idea. The number of people is up to Allah. Who are you to check?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 31 Mar 2012 09:59

Kaolin Powell 2 Game

US to rely on India if talks with Pakistan fail
WASHINGTON: The delay in finalising parliamentary recommendations for US-Pakistan relations is causing confusion in Washington where the Obama administration seems unable to decide how to proceed with rebuilding this key relationship.While the White House and the State Department say that they will wait patiently for Pakistan to complete the review, a senior US general told a congressional panel on Thursday that the United States would have to rely on India and the northern distribution network if Pakistan did not reopen Nato supply lines to Afghanistan.“If we can’t negotiate or successfully negotiate the reopening of ground lines of communication with Pakistan, we have to default and rely on India and the northern distribution network,” said Lt-Gen Frank Panter, the Deputy Commandant for Installations and Logistics.“Both are expensive propositions and it increases the deployment or redeployment,” the general told the Readiness Subcommittee of the House Armed Services Committee.In earlier testimonies, other US generals have warned that the failure to reopen Pakistan routes could delay the schedule for withdrawing US combat troops from Afghanistan by 2014.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 31 Mar 2012 10:17

Poaq Bicharre, Paani Pilla ke Marre, Bina Aqal ka bheja le kar, Phirte maare maare
Water securitisation
President Asif Ali Zardari, in a Washington Post article warned: “The water crisis in Pakistan is directly linked to relations with India. Its resolution could prevent an environmental catastrophe in South Asia, but failure to do so could fuel the fires of discontent that may lead to extremism and terrorism.” Meanwhile, the Economist magazine recently noted: “More rows between India and Pakistan are certain. India may keep on dismissing them as Pakistani bluster, an easy thing to do if you are upstream.”However, the problems that arise when viewing water solely as a matter of national security are many. Predictions that label water as an inevitable source of conflict belie the historical reality that few, if any, wars have ever been fought over water. Warnings of impending “water bombs” overlook the much stronger record of cooperation over shared water resources.With South Asia’s rapid population expansion showing no signs of slowing down and the volatile effects of climate change sure to worsen, a focus on individual human security is a far more useful approach to improving water relations. South Asia is in store for a long, hot, crowded, century. It behoves governments of the region to increase cooperation rather than ratchet up further tensions with threats and enflamed rhetoric. Such thinking gets us nowhere.The fact is that water should not be viewed merely as a “threat multiplier” – as something that will exacerbate already existing regional tensions. Instead, water presents the subcontinent with opportunities to defuse tensions and engage in necessary confidence-building measures. Despite its deficiencies, the Indus River Treaty remains the most successful and resilient international agreement in the region.
Last edited by Prem on 01 Apr 2012 01:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Roperia » 31 Mar 2012 12:31

Violence in Karachi continues, claiming 14 lives in the last 24 hours.

Karachi violence Day 6: Live updates

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Anujan » 31 Mar 2012 12:41

^^^^^
This seems to be an annual ritual between march and October after which it subsides. Is there any significance to the season?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Roperia » 31 Mar 2012 12:48

CNN Video - Pakistan FM Hina Rabbani Khar speaks out on U.S. relations

CNN correspondent asks - is it important that US apologize over the Salala incident? FM says that government of Pakistan never asked for an apology because an apology was not good enough and it required a complete relook at the terms of engagement with the US.


Anjum ji,

Not that I'm an expert on this gang war between MQM, ANP and PPP but I'd say - be it infiltration in Kashmir, cross-border attacks on NATO troops in A'stan or violence in Karachi they all tend to increase in summer. My conclusion is that Paki mards get more restless in summer.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby abhijitm » 31 Mar 2012 14:22

^^ winter is paki breeding period. Once they knock out women they go berserk against other men. Cycle continues...


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