Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 03 Apr 2012 22:51

Did India put a bounty on Azhar and Hafish

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 03 Apr 2012 23:24

Altair wrote:
ManuT wrote:What is Gujral doctrine?
An Obituary to Indian Intelligence capabilities in Pakistan.

adding for future reference

Gujral Doctrine

The Gujral Doctrine is a set of five principles to guide the conduct of foreign relations with India's immediate neighbours as spelt out by I.K. Gujral, first as India's foreign minister and later as the prime minister. Among other factors, these five principles arise from the belief that India's stature and strength cannot be divorced from the quality of its relations with its neighbours. It, thus, recognises the supreme importance of friendly, cordial relations with neighbours. These principles are: first, with neighbours like Bangladesh, Bhutan, Maldives, Nepal and Sri Lanka, India does not ask for reciprocity, but gives and accommodates what it can in good faith and trust;

{rest are platitudes}
second, no South Asian country should allow its territory to be used against the interest of another country of the region;

third, no country should interfere in the internal affairs of another;

fourth, all South Asian countries must respect each other's territorial integrity and sovereignty; and,

finally, they should settle all their disputes through peaceful bilateral negotiations.

According to Gujral , these five principles, scrupulously adhered to, would achieve a fundamental recasting of South Asia's regional relationships, including the difficult relationship between India and Pakistan.

From
The Gujral Doctrine and Beyond
Padmaja Murthy, Associate Fellow, IDSA

http://www.idsa-india.org/an-jul9-8.html

As regards Pakistan, it is seen that in the first half of the 1990s, the relations could not make substantial progress. This section does not deal with Indo-Pak relations as they existed in this period. A major breakthrough was, in fact, achieved at the 1997 Male Summit when Nawaz Sharif and Gujral met and as a result, the secretary level talks commenced with a purpose and the issues to be discussed were spelt out. Later, however, the talks were stalled, to be restarted again under the Vajpayee government. A certain section in Pakistan was of the opinion that one of the aims of the Gujral Doctrine was to isolate Pakistan by building up relations with the other South Asian countries.

Four specific events clearly point towards this understanding: first, the two specific economic proposals spelt out by India at the Tenth SAARC Summit; second, the visit of Sri Lankan President Chandrika Kumaratunga to India towards the end of 1998, resulting in the conclusion of the historic Indo-Sri Lanka Free Trade Agreement; third, the visit of the King of Nepal to India in January 1999 as the chief guest at the Republic Day parade in Delhi; last, the historic bus journey by Prime Minister Vajpayee to Lahore.

These four events have led to continuity in the aim of the principles of the Gujral Doctrine to establish friendly relations in the neighbourhood and have, in a certain sense, moved ahead too. For, while the Gujral Doctrine was seen by those in Pakistan as an attempt to isolate it by India, Prime Minister Vajpayee's bus journey to Lahore would have removed this apprehension to a great extent.

If an analysis of the performance of the Vajpayee government in conducting its foreign relations with the neighbours was being undertaken prior to the outbreak of fighting to oust the Pakistani backed infiltrators at the line of control in May, one would have easily concluded that the bus journey from Delhi to Lahore and the consequent Lahore declaration were very significant events. Though the events since the first week of May have shown that the intentions of Pakistan were not sincere, one need not reach a hasty conclusion that the bus diplomacy has failed. Whatever talks take place between India and Pakistan in the future (for there is no other way than dialogue), the Lahore Declaration will be the reference point.

Conclusion

The above discussion clearly brings out the continuity that has existed in the Indian foreign policy in the Nineties, thereby, inaugurating a period in which relations with the neighbours have seen a positive trend. It brings out the importance of the economic aspect of cooperation in the overall relations with the neighbours. The analysis also brings out that the beginning of the Nineties had seen the start of a positive movement between India and its neighbours which got intensified under Gujral. Thus, there was already a positive base on which the Gujral Doctrine could build itself in the absence of which the doctrine would not have been relevant and effective. The Gujral Doctrine played the cardinal role of clearly defining for India the importance of friendly relations with its neighbours. It gave a direction and sense of purpose which will forever remain one of the objectives of the Indian foreign policy. The advantages of the Gujral Doctrine could be clearly felt in the aftermath of the nuclear tests by India, and the international reaction to it contrasted with the reaction of the South Asian neighbours. The manner of articulation of these objectives by various governments may be different but their permanence cannot be questioned.

We, therefore, see that under the Vajpayee government too there was a continuation of these policies without per se saying so. In certain aspects, the Vajpayee government tried to move beyond the Gujral Doctrine, through bus diplomacy with Pakistan. Whichever government comes to power at the centre in India, the principles and purposes of the Gujral Doctrine will remain at the forefront. But it should not be forgotten that the success of the doctrine depends on the attitudes of the neighbours too, towards India and the region. In this sense, it will be dynamic in its implementation, calling for a great degree of maturity from all the countries of the region.

----------------------------
Gujral Doctrine Security Dimensions of the Gujral Doctrine
Bhabani Sen Gupta

http://www.ipcs.org/article/india-the-w ... ine-2.html

India & the world - Articles Print Bookmark Email Facebook

#2, 2 August 1997

The Gujral Doctrine aims at building a conflict-free cooperative South Asia and at the same time to build bridges of development cooperation with the neighbours of South Asia . Since one of its principal aims is to resolve conflicts, it has significant security dimensions. It believes in concepts of common security, equal security and cooperative security between and among the countries of South Asia , its neighbouring regions as well as their individual members.

South Asia is a sovereign incarnation of the British empire . Even as the colonial power departed, it left all the fissures of colonial rule behind. For 200 years, Britain practiced the principle of divide and rule in its empire. India and Pakistan were born as two sovereign nations into a pool of mutual hatred, hostility distrust and suspicion. To this inherited pool were added new tensions and confrontations over religion (the two nations theory), territory ( Kashmir ) and national aspirations.

The departure of colonial rule did not resolve the strategic divide between India and Nepal . Over time, turns and twists of Nepal?s domestic politics led to a strategic deadlock between the two close neighbours. The creation of Bangladesh sharpened the strategic conflict between India and Pakistan . The assassination of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman and liquidation of most of the leadership of the Awami League and the military takeover in Dhaka ,subsequently strained India?s relations with Bangladesh . The outbreak of the armed insurgency of Tamil Tigers in Jaffna created an almost inevitable chasm between Colombo and New Delhi . The chasm did not disappear even as India sent to Sri Lanka a peace-keeping force at the explicit request of the Sri Lankan President. The force was withdrawn a little ahead of an agreed schedule. India-Sri Lanka relations thawed as a result, but rebuilding of the close political-strategic relations of the mid-fifties remained only a mutually cherished goal.

The Gujral Doctrine has for the first time in 50 years reduced tensions and confrontations between India and all its neighbours at the same time. One of its distinguishing marks is that it was launched without a strategic theory or plan . The resolution of the water-sharing dispute with Bangladesh in just three months in 1996-97 almost coincided with the treaty with Nepal for taming the Mahakali river for generation of hydel power. It was followed by agreements with Sri Lanka for expanding development cooperation and was proceeded by certain unilateral initiatives by India to break the long deadlock in Indo-Pakistan relations. All these action-oriented diplomatic thrusts have been the hallmark of the Gujral Doctrine. The Doctrine was not consciously projected as such by its author, India?s foreign minister and (now) also prime minister, Inder Kumar Gujral. It was christened by foreign policy and diplomatic analysts and gradually gained acceptance in all countries of South Asia .

In projecting his new foreign policy, Mr.Gujral sought to bring South Asian relations to match with a major aspect of global change in the 90s- the end of the cold war. The global trend now was that all countries sought to cooperate with one another despite differences and disputes with only two exceptions, one in South Asia , the other in the Korean peninsula. Gujral sought to bring the global trend to South Asia by simultaneous pursuit of six broad principles of diplomacy. First, he unilaterally stopped the daily polemical exchanges between Pakistan and India . Second, he told the people of Bangladesh that in dealing with neighbours, India would not insist on reciprocity. This tactical line reversed the earlier one of the Congress government whose foreign minister, Pranab Mookherjee, while on a visit to Dhaka in February 1996, declared that if India gave water to Bangladesh , the latter must give India transit through its territory to the North-Eastern states. Thirdly, Gujral also announced that no South Asian country must allow its territory to be used against the interests of a neighbouring country. This principle, rigorously observed, would bring to an end confrontations and conflicts between India and Pakistan , India and Sri Lanka , India and Nepal and India and Bangladesh .

The fourth principle of the Gujral Doctrine is that neighbours in South Asia must dialogue tirelessly over a long period until they have found mutually acceptable solutions to their disputes and differences. No dispute, however much entangled with rival national ethos, must remain outside the ambit of dialogue. The fifth principle of the doctrine says that in dialogue, neighbours must treat one another as equals, must not intervene in their domestic affairs, and must respect one another?s territorial unity and integrity. Its last, but by no means the least important, principle was that while entire spectrums of relationships came under sincere problem-solving dialogues, cooperation must begin on agreed terms in agreed areas even as certain disputes remained unresolved. The last principle is an echo of one of the five or six principles of Chinese diplomacy that Chinese President, Jiang Zemin, unfolded in a statement before the Pakistan Senate while on a visit to Islamabad in December 1996.

The Gujral Doctrine produced positive results in a surprising short span of time. The water sharing with Bangladesh passed without problems in the first three months of 1997. Although the Bangladesh opposition tried to question India?s implementation of the accord, the provisions for 24-hour monitoring of the distribution of water by both sides, meant that no complaint of Indian default was supported by monitored statistics. In six months, Dhaka started giving India access to the North-Eastern states where as in Meghalaya, joint industrial projects were quickly approved and began to be implemented. Nepal was happy with the Mahakali river agreement. It employed reputed American consultants to prepare feasibility reports about hydel projects. Nepal was further pleased when India allowed it the use of a 60 km road to export goods to Bangladesh and to ASEAN via the Bangladeshi port of Chittagong . Bhutan offered to augment the supply of water of the Ganga through a canal linking the river to the Santokh river flowing nearby across Bhutanese territory.

The litmus test of the Gujral Doctrine was India-Pakistan relations. Two rounds of talks have taken place between the foreign secretaries of the two governments since the meeting between Mr.Gujral and Mr.Nawaz Shariff at the SAARC summit in Male, with a third meeting due in September. The two countries have found an agreed methodology to discuss the entire gamut of the flawed relationship including Kashmir , which Pakistan has identified as the "core issue". While Kashmir and several related issues including Siachin, peace and security, confidence-building measures are to be discussed by a joint team led by the foreign secretaries, other joint teams are to be announced in September to go into issues like trade, commerce, cultural exchanges and travel.

Even before the official level talks have produced results, a soft thaw has descended on the long-confrontational relationship. Pakistan has bought sizeable quantities of Indian wheat and sugar, and India has bought Pakistani cotton. More important, Pakistan has announced that it will allow the proposed oil and gas pipeline from Oman to the Indian west coast to pass through its territory, drawing from the pipeline oil and gas for its own use, if necessary. The two countries worked closely together for the first time on WTO issues that came up at the WTO conference in Singapore recently. India-Pakistan direct official trade has touched $ 1 billion, increasing at the rate of 30% a year, according to Asia News.

An important thrust of the Gujral Doctrine is to help South Asia to expand its relationship with neighbouring regions. India has adopted the policy of Going East, and Pakistan is following suit. ASEAN has built a visible presence in India?s infrastructure development designs together with South Korea . India?s relations with China have improved significantly. At the latest round of border talks on August 5, 1997, the two sides agreed to identify an interim border and further accelerate the process of demilitarisation of the eastern border. Heavy weapons have been identified for withdrawal from the border regions. Trade and technology transfer relations have been expanding steadily, if rather slowly.

In just about a year, India is conducting active diplomacy of developmental cooperation with more than 40 countries in the regions close to its immediate South Asian neighbourhood. These nations belong to ASEAN, the newly-spawned Indian Ocean Community, the Gulf and Central Asia . India now confidently expects to be a member of the APEC very soon. The Gujral Doctrine has spurred South-South Cooperation in a big way.

The Gujral Doctrine has significantly lowered tensions in South Asia and improved bilateral relations. It has not broken swords into ploughshares, but it may indeed do so if it is practiced for another two or three years. {So the 2-3 year period expired on 3 Aug 2000. Right?} Indian threat perceptions of Pakistan and China have been reduced significantly. Traditional security concerns like huge standing armies, unaffordably high military budgets, issues relating to proliferation of nuclear weapons and development and deployment of missiles however remain unresolved. On the positive side, few in India and Pakistan now talk of war, while fear of Indian aggressive designs have largely withered in Nepal, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.

---
The Gujral Doctrine

Text of "Aspects of India's Foreign Policy," a speech by I.K. Gujral at the Bandaranaike Center For International Studies in Colombo, Sri Lanka on January 20, 1997
http://www.stimson.org/research-pages/t ... -doctrine/

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 03 Apr 2012 23:44

Bounty on Hafiz certainly isn't to please India. Indian lives and India never mattered to US. Even after Daniel Pearl's killing US didn't touch nor censure LeT so vehemently. Why should it matter to US if LeT and Hafiz goons killed Indians now? this bounty is surely to do a taqiya on TSP. And this will die down too eventually. OBL was different, he is linked to American deaths so he was doomed to die, it was only when in my opinion. Even after 26/11, US didn't name LeT as Terrorist org, it merely announced a bounty of Hafiz, that should be clear signal that it is not interested in doing anything to curtail LeT. It surely knows LeT is nothing but TSPA in civilian garb, else why will it cherry pick one or two guys? if it really is serious, they should have placed LeT or TSPA on terrorist list, and then put TSP in a spot to deliver Hafiz to India. All this should have happened soon after 26/11. So Bounty now means nothing.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 04 Apr 2012 00:26

khudi ko kar safeel itna, ke har shahaadat se pahley
jallaad paki se poochhey, bataa teraa baap kaun hai

Pakistani Drug smuggler given martyrdom in Mecca

Saudi Arabia beheaded a Pakistani man on Tuesday after he was convicted of smuggling a “large amount” of heroin into the kingdom, the interior ministry said.

“Salim Shah Sayed Shah, a Pakistani, was accused of smuggling a large amount of the heroin drug into the kingdom,” said an interior ministry statement carried by state news agency SPA, adding that he was executed in the holy city of Mecca.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 04 Apr 2012 01:42

venug ji,

Actually the same thing was said by Praveen Swami of The Hindu. He said if US wanted to act they would put him on JSOC's hit list. All Indian commentators in the following two programs agree that this shouldn't be read as a favor to India and this has only to do with US-Pak dynamics.

It serves two purposes of the US

1. Tell TSPA that US can also put pressure on its "strategic interests".

2. Firing shot to DPC to lay low and not come out so openly in defiance to resumption of NATO supply lines.

Reward for Hafiz Saeed: Will Pakistan act?

Will Hafiz Saeed bounty impact India-Pak talks?

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 04 Apr 2012 03:10

Bounty on Hafiz certainly isn't to please India.

After a long soch...

I think the US wants to anoint Hafiz-e-suar as the preeminent amir in afpak and this bounty helps by suddenly giving him an "anti-american" halo rivalling mullahO and Zawahiri.

Hafiz-e-suar will be the ultimate guarenteer of amrikhan interests from the nonuniformed jihadi spectrum in post 2014 afpak.

ofcourse, i have nothing but my instinct to back this up

.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 Apr 2012 04:33

Poaqcomical Ykhnomical Djinnomical Equation
The middle class debate
Shy Jave Bukri

There is a debate both inside and outside Pakistan about the size of the middle class in the country. I had suggested in an article written some time ago for Dawn that the size of the middle class was about 40 million. At that time the country’s population was about 170 million. If my estimate was correct, the Pakistani middle class accounted for a bit less than 24 per cent of the population. Based on considerably more robust pieces of analyses carried out by several Indian scholars, it was determined that the Indian middle class accounted for some 40 per cent of that country’s population. This meant that some 500 million people in India could be said to belong to this economic and social class. While the Indian estimate generated considerable excitement among western businesses, my estimate for Pakistan provoked some controversy. At a conference held in Belagio, Italy, some participants from the US doubted my numbers, suggesting that it was a very high estimate. Why this questioning when a much larger one for India was readily accepted?The answer is simple. There is a group of scholars in the US who believe that the endgame has been reached for Pakistan as we (and they) know the country today. They believe that Pakistan is now ripe for takeover by Islamic radicals. Once they have succeeded in overthrowing the current political and social order, they will go on to establish a regime not too different from the one that has been governing for the last several decades.
More serious work has been done on the size of the middle class in Pakistan since I wrote my article. In a recent contribution by the economist Sakib Sherani to Dawn titled “Consumption conundrum” (March 23), he presents a much higher estimate than I had provided, both in terms of the size of the middle class in Pakistan and its proportion in the total population. “I updated the figure arrived at earlier, making one crucial adjustment: for the estimated size of Pakistan’s undocumented (or ‘black’ economy). The adjusted figure for the middle class is a staggering 70 million people, or 40 per cent of the population”, he writes. This brings the Pakistani situation closer to the one that is generally accepted for India. ( Have heart Now, All iz well, Same as India)

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 Apr 2012 04:38

Gilani's plane makes emergency landing at Chhak lallu air base
http://tribune.com.pk/story/359143/gila ... ent-640279

RAWALPINDI: Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani’s aircraft made an emergency landing at the Chaklala airbase in Rawalpindi on Tuesday after experiencing a technical failure, reported Express News.
The pilot called up the air control tower while on its way to Sukkur and reported a technical failure, after which the aircraft landed at the airbase.ll passengers onboard remained safe and the prime minister was also safely escorted from the plane.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 04 Apr 2012 04:46

^^^

Above post by Jhujar in which Javed Burki adjusted Pakistan's middle class figures by including the "black economy" gets one thinking.

Easy way for Pakistan to shore up its economy: become the offshore banking destination of choice for Indians with black money. D-company guarantee of security backed up with nooklear bums. High interest rates, low service fees, cash transactions welcome. Accounts virtually untouchable...GOI wouldn't go after Pakistan even following a 26/11, do you think some yoga teacher or some old Maharashtrian gent going on hunger strike will be able to compel them?

Indian economic-liberals and "trade for peace dividend" types (NOT just WKKs) are arguing for increased trade with Pakistan, in the hope of winning over the unter-RAPE and business classes to India's favour. The effect of increasing trade and private enterprise might be just the opposite, given the existence of political-criminal nexus at the GOI's highest levels, and the criminal-army-jihadi nexus next door... the effect might be to create an INDIAN business and political class with more affinity for Pakistan because of all the 400% tax-free offshore accounts they have there.

Shaashtanga · Post by **Shaashtanga** » 04 Apr 2012 04:50

Dear Rakshaks, please watch latest episode of Hajam Sethi's Apas ki Baat (3rd April) episode and raise your Blood Pressure. In the 3rd part around 7min50sec Hajam tells the reason for Dus Percenti's upcoming 1 day visit to India, first Dus Percenti is going to Ajmer Dargah then have lunch (or Dinner) with MMS and 1 hr meeting. In that meeting 10% is going to tell MMS that Porkistan has given MFN status to India and opening up trade (which was banned from Porki side as a policy since 1965 i.e. resolve Cashmere then we shall talk of trade) so now what will India do to appease PakArmy and then Dus percenti is going to tell MMS that -

1). Move Indian forces in siachen & sir creek (to pre 1984 positions) and come to Porkistan to announce this. I mean WTF is going on here, can someone pliss explain to me what is of so much value that we are going to get from Porkistan that would equate in apparent gain to moving our forces back in siachen & sir creek so that the porkis can occupy those positions again? I know that supporters of Indo-Pak trade will say that this is all talk and no play but with MMS at the helm it wont take long for talks to become reality. Why do we need to show any sort of appeasement , Porkistan maybe having a tough time maintaining their current positions in Siachen due to financial constraints but India not so much. We can afford to keep our current positions and make cost of matching our conventional capabilities out of wildest porki dreams.
2). Allow Porki kirket players back in IPL etcetera

http://www.zemtv.com/2012/04/04/aapas-k ... pril-2012/

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 04 Apr 2012 04:52

Shaashtanga wrote: I mean WTF is going on here, can someone pliss explain me what is of value that we are going to get from Porkistan that would equate in value to moving our forces back in siachen & sir creek so that the porkis can occupy those positions again?

http://www.zemtv.com/2012/04/04/aapas-k ... pril-2012/

Safe havens for netas' black money. 1.77 lakh crore is a lot. 2Gs may lose elections some day, and banks in Switz/Caymans etc. may come under pressure from new GOI to investigate. Alternative hidey-holes have to be found.

Shaashtanga · Post by **Shaashtanga** » 04 Apr 2012 05:00

Rudradev wrote:
Shaashtanga wrote: I mean WTF is going on here, can someone pliss explain me what is of value that we are going to get from Porkistan that would equate in value to moving our forces back in siachen & sir creek so that the porkis can occupy those positions again?

http://www.zemtv.com/2012/04/04/aapas-k ... pril-2012/
Safe havens for netas' black money. 1.77 lakh crore is a lot. 2Gs may lose elections some day, and banks in Switz/Caymans etc. may come under pressure from new GOI to investigate. Alternative hidey-holes have to be found.

So porkistan will be "Safe Haven" for our corrupt politicians black money? How can they be sure that the deal they make with ISI & Army to hide their black money in Porkistan and they won't be double crossed ?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 04 Apr 2012 05:04

Shaashtanga wrote: So porkistan will be "Safe Haven" for our corrupt politicians black money? How can they be sure that the deal they make with ISI & Army to hide their black money in Porkistan and they won't be double crossed ?

Arrey, why do they continue to have very very extensive dealings with D-Company even now, with D himself living in ISI guest house and declared an international terrorist? Our political classes already have a LOT of wealth invested with these types boss. Only the uber-netas, Maino family level, can afford Swiss bank p1ss bank.

Of course they can't be sure they won't be double crossed, but the fact is they have done business with Dawood for years if not decades; so there is a relationship of trust there. Meanwhile how can they be sure that some suited booted banker in Europe won't throw them under the bus (remember the German bank giving out a list of account holders that the 2Gs promptly suppressed?) Also... ISI/TSPA being hungrier than Switzerland, may in fact be counted upon to guard the accounts more zealously no?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 04 Apr 2012 05:17

Shaashtanga wrote:Dear Rakshaks, please watch latest episode of Hajam Sethi's latest Apas ki Baat (3rd April) episode and raise your Blood Pressure. In the 3rd part around 7min50sec Hajam tells the reason for Dus Percenti's upcoming 1 day visit to India, first Dus Percenti is going to Ajmer Dargah then have lunch (or Dinner) with MMS and 1 hr meeting. In that meeting 10% is going to tell MMS that Porkistan has given MFN status to India and opening up trade (which was banned from Porki side as a policy since 1965 i.e. resolve Cashmere then we shall talk of trade) so now what will India do to appease PakArmy

http://www.zemtv.com/2012/04/04/aapas-k ... pril-2012/

This was pretty much what was suggested in the Hindu Op-Ed and I do not think that it is a co-incidence. Track-2 has been going on for some time and have been demanding pretty much the same thing. The demands are along the themes of

1. "Grand gesture" by India (India already did that, by releasing 90,000 Pakis without demanding anything in return)
2. RAPEs Participating in India's economy (allowing travel, investments, performances) without a corresponding assurance of Indian participation in Pakistani economy (exports, cracking down on movie piracy, rights for TV broadcast)

I hope the India does not fall for this.

Forget giving "assurances" about Siachen to India by the Paki army (without agreeing on the actual ground positions) that they wont occupy Siachen, can Paki army give assurances to Pakistan first that they wont occupy Islamabad? How about Zardari demanding a "grand gesture" by Paki army towards the Paki civvie government as a confidence building measure? As recently as a few weeks back, they were trying to get Zardari by implicating him along with the Good Haqqani in the memo case. The Contempt of court case against Groper is pending and the courts (nudged by the army) is squeezing his testimonials to write to swiss authorities to reopen cases against Zardari.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 04 Apr 2012 05:17

Rudradev wrote: Easy way for Pakistan to shore up its economy: become the offshore banking destination of choice for Indians with black money. D-company guarantee of security backed up with nooklear bums. High interest rates, low service fees, cash transactions welcome. Accounts virtually untouchable...GOI wouldn't go after Pakistan even following a 26/11, do you think some yoga teacher or some old Maharashtrian gent going on hunger strike will be able to compel them?

Indian economic-liberals and "trade for peace dividend" types (NOT just WKKs) are arguing for increased trade with Pakistan, in the hope of winning over the unter-RAPE and business classes to India's favour. The effect of increasing trade and private enterprise might be just the opposite, given the existence of political-criminal nexus at the GOI's highest levels, and the criminal-army-jihadi nexus next door... the effect might be to create an INDIAN business and political class with more affinity for Pakistan because of all the 400% tax-free offshore accounts they have there.

A version of this has already occurred especially with middle east based Indians and a lot of hard working money was sucked into it. It was called the BCCI fiasco. Around 1991.

Shaashtanga · Post by **Shaashtanga** » 04 Apr 2012 05:34

Rudradev wrote:
Shaashtanga wrote: So porkistan will be "Safe Haven" for our corrupt politicians black money? How can they be sure that the deal they make with ISI & Army to hide their black money in Porkistan and they won't be double crossed ?
Arrey, why do they continue to have very very extensive dealings with D-Company even now, with D himself living in ISI guest house and declared an international terrorist? Our political classes already have a LOT of wealth invested with these types boss. Only the uber-netas, Maino family level, can afford Swiss bank p1ss bank.

Of course they can't be sure they won't be double crossed, but the fact is they have done business with Dawood for years if not decades; so there is a relationship of trust there. Meanwhile how can they be sure that some suited booted banker in Europe won't throw them under the bus (remember the German bank giving out a list of account holders that the 2Gs promptly suppressed?) Also... ISI/TSPA being hungrier than Switzerland, may in fact be counted upon to guard the accounts more zealously no?

Well said RudraDevji, chor chor mausere bhai.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 04 Apr 2012 06:25

An Indian and a US source have independently told me this regarding Hafiz-e-pig:

Key LeT people were some of the most frequently appearing figures in the data cache Unkil took away from the Mansion-e-Osama in Abbottabad. There is a guy called Hassan Gul (unrelated to Hamid Gul) who is an LeT operative but was arrested in Iraq some time ago but released to TSP authorities. Hassan was one of the people directly in touch with the so called courier of Osama who was killed on May 1. There were other LeT people in the courier chain through which Osama sent his messages. LeT is the only TSPian group which makes its commanders learn Arabic BTW. For TSPA/ISI, this gives a semi-deniable but controllable means to liaise with the "bad" jihadis. Harkat-ul-Mujahideen used to be the primay go-between with Al Qaeda types but nowadays LeT has taken over all roles.

My Indian source also believes that Unkil may have caught wind of another 26/11 in the works. This could explain the timing of this bounty.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 04 Apr 2012 06:50

Rangudu wrote: My Indian source also believes that Unkil may have caught wind of another 26/11 in the works. This could explain the timing of this bounty.

New ISI chief submitting his credentials?

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 04 Apr 2012 07:30

Rangudu garu,
But why now? what is TSPA going to gain from another 26/11? to derail TSP-India trade and MFN status? they know they are under scanner for what ever that entails. TSP/US relationship is all time low, can they afford another 26/11 and be subjected to US wrath? already NATO route is not open still so any action of this kind will anger US. It is not going to help TSP's case, unless the plan is another brain dead plan from the generals like always? May be LeT feels it is easy to attack India than US? but what is the pressure that they are trying to relieve on them? I only see India-TSP trade.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 04 Apr 2012 07:38

Thanks Roperia ji for the links.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 04 Apr 2012 07:41

Who knows about the timing, but there is kolaveri that needs to be quenched every so often or else pious Abduls might point it elsewhere.

Anujan, New ISI chief is temporary, but the mission is permanent. Besides, Kiya-nahi is still there, right?

Maybe they see the current tussle between Gen. Singh and Anthony and sense a vulenrability?

To me the signals are there alright. Kiya-nahi went to Saudi and China before 26/11 too right? Hafiz-e-pig was a little extra active in terms of his speeches before all major attacks as he is doing now.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 04 Apr 2012 07:54

U.S. Offers Up to $10 Million Reward for Alleged Mumbai Mastermind

Last November, a year-long investigation by FRONTLINE and ProPublica into Pakistani-American Lashkar operative David Headley’s role in the Mumbai attacks revealed that Headley had an inspirational meeting with Saeed in the winter of 2000.

“Saeed made a statement that was Headley’s epiphany: ‘One second spent in jihad is superior to 100 years of worship and prayer,’” ProPublica reporter Sebastian Rotella wrote of the meeting

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... astermind/

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 04 Apr 2012 08:06

Meanwhile....!

http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/04/ ... rmind.html

Bin Laden's Wives, Children Sentenced in Pakistan
The five will serve a 45-day term before being deported to their home countries.

So! The birds are being encouraged by Pakistan to fly the coop back to Yemen (Amal) and KSA (other two wives). I suppose the children will go along with the appropriate mothers.

One wonders, why now?

I would have thought these wimmens were being kept in jail by ISI because they might spill lots of beans for the Amrikis if handed over.

But now they're being sent home... almost as if ISI has decided "whatever dangerous stuff the US could have learned from these wimmens, they already know by other means... probably by the literature and digital records they confiscated at Abbottabad."

Some action by the US, in the present or recent past, may have convinced the ISI that there is no point holding on to the wimmens any longer because all possible cats are already out of the bag.

And at the same time Hafeez E Suar gets a bounty announced on his head.

Pure coincidence of course.

Ananya · Post by **Ananya** » 04 Apr 2012 08:33

well couple of more occurrence of coincidence.......

1. ZAR.... when visited Bangladesh, soon after the BDR massacre followed
2. Last time when the great Shah ( Bhutto in the making ) visited in 2008 26/11 occurred
3. TSP is in dire straights and need a game changer.

Hope PC and Khan are aware of the coincidence .....

MMS tells GILLL that he would visit TSP only if a substantial development occurs perhaps MMS is aware of the coincidence other wise we would have seen another AMAN KI .....

well time of pure co-incidence..... and Zardari's advisers are very smart indeed

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Apr 2012 08:35

Osama had a 25 million bounty on his head, 250% more than Hafiz Saeed but lived in Pakistan for a decade. But he was forced underground. It remains to be seen whether Hafiz Saeed will be forced to go underground now.

Someone mentioned the word "trust" in international relations. The US has been in a position to arrest or restrict Musharraf or Kiyani , but Pakistan trusts the US enough to know that these people are safe. The US can, if it wants to, upset the entire Pakistani applecart the way India and Indians (esp on BRF) dream of doing. The US did not get to its position of trust with Pakistan by brute force as it did in Iraq. But the US has got itself into that position by building trust and paying off many Pakistanis over decades. The US is not going to fritter away decades of trust and lakhs of favours done for the USA by damaging what exists of the "fabric of Pakistan". Developing trust matters because it is less costly than open war.

Why does the Pakistani establishment trust the US even if the people are so anti-US? The answer is well known to us. The US has given the establishment what they want over many years foremost among which is the ability for Pakistan to survive and thrive despite being rabidly anti-India. Even if the US did not dislike India, buying Pakistan's trust was more important to the US than anything that India could give the US

The point I want to stress here is that US-Pakistani relations are not affected by a Pakistani threat to India, but they are built upon a (real or imagined) Indian threat to Pakistan. To that extent, India affects US-Pakistani relations. Hafiz Saeed is a "Pakistani threat to India" and as such the US should not give a rat's ass about that, given the history of US-Pakistani relations. The US bounty on Hafiz Saeed's head is NOT a favour to India. It is an attempt at favouring the USA. The US is trying to discourage the Pakistani army from supporting the LeT because the US now sees the LeT as a threat to the US. As long as anti-India groups in Pakistan are not anti-US the US, the US does not care. But that will not prevent the US from trying to gain brownie points from India for doing something India welcomes. The US is trying to repair and maintain its half century old relationship with the biggest ant-India force of them all, the Pakistan army.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 04 Apr 2012 08:36

ShauryaT wrote:
Rudradev wrote: Easy way for Pakistan to shore up its economy: become the offshore banking destination of choice for Indians with black money. D-company guarantee of security backed up with nooklear bums. High interest rates, low service fees, cash transactions welcome. Accounts virtually untouchable...GOI wouldn't go after Pakistan even following a 26/11, do you think some yoga teacher or some old Maharashtrian gent going on hunger strike will be able to compel them?

Indian economic-liberals and "trade for peace dividend" types (NOT just WKKs) are arguing for increased trade with Pakistan, in the hope of winning over the unter-RAPE and business classes to India's favour. The effect of increasing trade and private enterprise might be just the opposite, given the existence of political-criminal nexus at the GOI's highest levels, and the criminal-army-jihadi nexus next door... the effect might be to create an INDIAN business and political class with more affinity for Pakistan because of all the 400% tax-free offshore accounts they have there.
A version of this has already occurred especially with middle east based Indians and a lot of hard working money was sucked into it. It was called the BCCI fiasco. Around 1991.

Shaurya, definitely... and IMHO, BCCI was only the very tip of the iceberg that happened to get exposed. What happened to the Indians involved in BCCI? Some chaprasis got punished, at the most. It's been 20 years since then.

I am certain this kind of thing has only grown exponentially since 1991, with the transformation of India's economy and abundance of money among the political and organized crime networks. It's not in anybody's interest (who knows anything) to let it come to light, that's all. No matter what the price paid by Indian interests.

The point to note is that, with Dawood/Chhota Shakeel in ISI control, the investment of the funds they accumulate is also under ISI control. To maintain their interest, Indian politicians and connected businessmen get handsome returns on their investments, in the form of laundered money, benaami properties etc. However, I would not be surprised if my local MLA (or maybe even pados-waale auntie uncle) were fractionally responsible for financing such ventures as 26/11 or Ghulam Nabi Fai, simply because black investment was more tempting than paying taxes to GOI.

All of this is of far, far greater concern to me than 100 plus nooklear bums that Pakis claim to be building.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 04 Apr 2012 08:47

Morning blues only but Now that HS has a bounty, can Brahmos take out Muridke and claim USD 10m? Dr.Sivathanu Pillai can claim it to be a test misfire onlee no?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 04 Apr 2012 08:59

Altair wrote:Morning blues only but Now that HS has a bounty, can Brahmos take out Muridke and claim USD 10m? Dr.Sivathanu Pillai can claim it to be a test misfire onlee no?

It is against our values.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 04 Apr 2012 09:05

abhishek_sharma wrote:
Altair wrote:Morning blues only but Now that HS has a bounty, can Brahmos take out Muridke and claim USD 10m? Dr.Sivathanu Pillai can claim it to be a test misfire onlee no?
It is against our values.

Depends who you want to believe.

VK Saraswat: It's within our capability but against our values.

VK Singh: It's not within our capability onlee. Or:

Majboori ka naam Mahatma Gandhi

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 04 Apr 2012 09:07

abhishek_sharma wrote:
Altair wrote:Morning blues only but Now that HS has a bounty, can Brahmos take out Muridke and claim USD 10m? Dr.Sivathanu Pillai can claim it to be a test misfire onlee no?
It is against our values.

haa! They thought of everything! My bad

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 04 Apr 2012 09:39

As part of its Iraq, Afghanistan, and Drone campaign in Pakistan' tribal northwest, US has killed thousands of innocent civilians along with dozens (or may be hundreds) of militants.

Instead of this buffoonery of placing $10M bounty, US should make use of one of the drones to eliminate the likes of Hafeez Sayeed. At least that shows some continuum and consistency in eliminating key jihadi leaders that it once created/supported/nurtured.

India/Indians should welcome this move even as we remain cautious about US signal that having warned LeT/pakistan, now the attack can go on solely pinning the blame on Indian incompetence and Paki non-state actors. This will become especially important in the run up of US/Israel/West attack on Iran and to teach India a lesson for its intransigence.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 04 Apr 2012 12:57

Rudradev wrote:Meanwhile....!
http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/04/ ... rmind.html

Bin Laden's Wives, Children Sentenced in Pakistan
The five will serve a 45-day term before being deported to their home countries.

So! The birds are being encouraged by Pakistan to fly the coop back to Yemen (Amal) and KSA (other two wives). I suppose the children will go along with the appropriate mothers.

One wonders, why now?

I would have thought these wimmens were being kept in jail by ISI because they might spill lots of beans for the Amrikis if handed over.

But now they're being sent home... almost as if ISI has decided "whatever dangerous stuff the US could have learned from these wimmens, they already know by other means... probably by the literature and digital records they confiscated at Abbottabad."

We'll have to wait and see if they make it back to their home countries safely. They have to spend 45 days in a Paki prison first and there are lots of opportunities for accidenting them inside there (untimely toilet gas explosion, air vacuum effect, kitchen fire etc.) I guess, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 04 Apr 2012 13:12

"Pakistan is avoiding giving voice sample of Hafiz Mohammad Saeed as asked by India," said Chidambaram.

The Home Minister further said, "We have shared dossier with Pakistan with all the evidence we have, on his hate speech against India in Pakistan and other things."

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/hafiz-saeed- ... 89-56.html

For Hafeez Saeed voice sample, Chidu should look on youtube.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 04 Apr 2012 13:27

Satya_anveshi wrote: Instead of this buffoonery of placing $10M bounty, US should make use of one of the drones to eliminate the likes of Hafeez Sayeed. At least that shows some continuum and consistency in eliminating key jihadi leaders that it once created/supported/nurtured.

Hafiz Saeed is living in Lahore out in the open. The US cannot carry drone strikes in mainstream cities as that would be act of war. The idea of drone strikes in NW is that the Pakis hold it as no man's land and really have no control over it. So drone strikes there are welcome for Pakis and the US, Mush had attacked that area too. The terrorists in that area are pawns and eliminating them pleases everyone.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 04 Apr 2012 13:53

Ivanev wrote:
Satya_anveshi wrote: Instead of this buffoonery of placing $10M bounty, US should make use of one of the drones to eliminate the likes of Hafeez Sayeed. At least that shows some continuum and consistency in eliminating key jihadi leaders that it once created/supported/nurtured.
Hafiz Saeed is living in Lahore out in the open. The US cannot carry drone strikes in mainstream cities as that would be act of war. The idea of drone strikes in NW is that the Pakis hold it as no man's land and really have no control over it. So drone strikes there are welcome for Pakis and the US, Mush had attacked that area too. The terrorists in that area are pawns and eliminating them pleases everyone.

"Hindu" terrorists who allegedly attacked Samjauta express can carry out the attack in Lahore and India can condemn it afterwards. India is also a victim of terrorism. Pakistan can also send in dosa's to chidu and he can dip them in his sambhar.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 04 Apr 2012 14:03

Rudradev wrote:
Depends who you want to believe.

VK Saraswat: It's within our capability but against our values.

VK Singh: It's not within our capability onlee. Or:

Majboori ka naam Mahatma Gandhi

true.. forget any response except dossier throwing for next 20 years... India refusing to indulge in karma like a true Yogi..

whatever is bound to happen, will happen onlee.. we only must exist.

purposeful decline in India's readiness is a confidence building measure. it built the confidence in tsp to do a 26/11.

Certain individual in NDTV's "we the people" proclaimed that during kargil war, we acquired shells and bullets from black market. So much for preparedness of Indian army. That means one more scam.. VP Malik's response to VK Singh was too ferocious to understand at first. If this (acquisition of something as fundamental as shell and bullet from black market) is true, then that explains it all. It also explains the delay in operation parakram.

System woven around dynasty and TSP are conjoined Siamese twins. Its like the Rakshasa who's life was in a parrot. without killing the parrot, one cannot kill the Rakshasa and vice-versa. TSP is Rakshasa. Dynasty-system (since days of cabinet mission plan) is the parrot.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 04 Apr 2012 14:50

Why sweat saar! Someday HS will die as Allah has ordained. Why raise ruckus over it.
Till then, pray to ATM that he doesn't explode another bomb in Mumbai.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 04 Apr 2012 15:24

Rangudu wrote:
Maybe they see the current tussle between Gen. Singh and Anthony and sense a vulenrability?

The IE report by shake-her-dupatta speaks volumes about the differences between them. I do not think this is a coincidence about the timing of bounty on HS. These dots do have a pattern. If India does not side by US in case of an attack on Iran, bounty on HS will vanish overnight giving him and TSPA green signal to their plans on India. The disarray and mistrust between Govt and Army (artificially created btw) will be milked to maximum by Unkil in case of an attack during IPL.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 04 Apr 2012 15:27

Altair wrote:"Hindu" terrorists who allegedly attacked Samjauta express can carry out the attack in Lahore and India can condemn it afterwards. India is also a victim of terrorism. Pakistan can also send in dosa's to chidu and he can dip them in his sambhar.

A hit squad would be one of the best ways to deal with people like HS, still Iran can do zilch about Israel setting back their nuclear program. Unfortunately, that seems to be a lost case both with GOI and US.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 04 Apr 2012 16:46

Pak-Canadian jailed for 14 years for helping Sikh militant group

A 50-year-old Pakistani-Canadian has been sentenced to 14 years in jail for providing material support to the Sikh militant group Khalistan Commando Force, blamed for carrying out assassinations and bombings in India.

In a statement, the FBI said KCF comprises Sikh militants seeking a separate Sikh state in Punjab and has been responsible for thousands of deaths in India since it was founded in 1986.