Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
chaanakya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9513
Joined: 09 Jan 2010 13:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby chaanakya » 08 Apr 2012 23:24

harbans wrote: But reports mention 70 meters of snow over an area as big as a km square is a huge amount of pile up at a higher point..that was why i was trying to look up Gayari where it is exactly. Where is Gagan Ji when you need him most..


35 08 59.15 N 76 46 52.08 E

kancha
BRFite
Posts: 951
Joined: 20 Apr 2005 19:13

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby kancha » 08 Apr 2012 23:44

Wiki says that 6 NLI, whose soldiers are now under snow, was deployed in Drass - Tololing - Kaksar region during the Kargil war. Lt Saurabh Kalia's ill fated patrol was also captured somewhere in Kaksar.
Strange are the ways Karma comes back at you :twisted:

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21189
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 09 Apr 2012 00:28

Ashok Gottipati wrote:Does anybody remotely guess what MMS and Zardari talked in private?

A new fedration of Sindh-Baloch Desh with Zardari as President and 100 Million $ a Year life long Guaranteed payment.

brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby brihaspati » 09 Apr 2012 01:11

harbans wrote:Rohit Ji, many thanks for the link. But just armchair POV..looks a pretty nasty place from Avalanche POV to set up a base there. On a valley between 2 steep mountainous areas..lots of avalanche carved slopes visible on all sides of the camp. Plus massive pile up of snow higher reaches and spring should have raised caution levels way up.


CT would have it that the old old concept of using avalanche as weapon of war is being tried out. The tech for inducing avalanches for critical accumulation is already well known - especially among taller and deeper friends. No problem if Yindus have mastered it too. So it could be a amreeki-yahudi and because its Paki foraging ground, inevitably also Yindu conspiracy and weapons test on Paki mards.

shiv ji might delight in the possibilities such a theory might afford.

Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Satya_anveshi » 09 Apr 2012 01:49

shyamd wrote:Indian DGMO used hot line today to offer Help in siachen recovery efforts. Pak DGMO yet to respond.

Our DGMO seems to be super chankian and this is much better pre-emption than my proposal here 8) . all that remains is dhol bajao of this while getting back to normal programming.

svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14223
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby svinayak » 09 Apr 2012 02:14

venug wrote:
Given our once great civilisation, it is we who should be franchising chicken tikka, bun kebab and biryani to them.

I have a feeling that the Poaqs want to hijack Indian history and claim it as theirs. In the face of identity crisis, this is a very easy way out. They have done this with Kashmir, they have done this with samjhauta episode, every things they said is a lie, so by extrapolation, this is going to happen, they will one day would say Indus civilization is their civilization, they already have started saying this.

This is not a lie. For them this is reality and a continuation of History. They think they have conquered and then now own that 'old civilization' and they are the rightful people to talk about that civilization.

Only problem is that another country in the east actually is the living civlization and also is expanding that civilization.

This civilization does not own kebob, biryani etc. ad their roots

member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby member_22872 » 09 Apr 2012 02:44

jrjrao wrote:No joy or pride in making this prediction, obviously, but Kayani and pigs will respond to this Zardari visit the only way they know how. Expect a significant urban bombing within 2 weeks.


I think this is a possibility if and when Z ends up losing something strategic in the talks than gaining or simply returns with nothing to show. If the visit is because as some are saying that substantial concessions are being offered to the Poaqs, they will go happy that we blinked and that they 'won' yet another time, so for now that is enough to save their H&D what ever that is.


sunnyP
BRFite
Posts: 1330
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 16:52

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby sunnyP » 09 Apr 2012 04:30

:roll:

Manmohan Singh offers help to rescue avalanche hit Pakistan soldiers

NEW DELHI: Meeting a day after an avalanche in Siachen glacier buried over 130 Pakistani soldiers, PM Manmohan Singh offered humanitarian assistance to Pakistan to extricate the soldiers from the snow.

Briefing journalists, foreign secretary Ranjan Mathai said Pakistani President Asif Zardari appreciated the offer and said they would seek assistance if needed.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 588795.cms


Charlie
BRFite
Posts: 318
Joined: 12 Nov 2009 05:49

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Charlie » 09 Apr 2012 05:03

Gurus, was this book reviewed here. Tarek Fateh tweeted abt this book and says "Untold Story of India's Partition in 1947 & the ugly role of the Muslim League"

Available free on Scribd

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21189
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 09 Apr 2012 05:10

SindhoakUs Vs PoaqUs, Various Shades Of Poaqqunity

Addressing members of the PPP Punjab Executive Council at the Governor's House in Lahore last week, the party's Co-Chairman, Asif Ali Zardari, declared the Sharif brothers as mohajirs. His line of reasoning was that since their family had migrated from the Indian side of Punjab at the time of independence, the PML-N leaders were not fit to lead the province. Belittling their support in Lahore, he said that the Sharifs could not gather enough people at their father's funeral. Zardari's comments are a reflection of his petty feudal mind and members of any political party that calls itself democratic would be ashamed of such utterings by their leader. But trust the PPP wallahs to come up with the most outlandish justifications to defend the indefensible when it comes to their big boss. The problem is that the PPP Co-Chairman also happens to be the President of Pakistan.This is not the first time that he has chosen to couch his political diatribes in ethnically-charged terminology. In fact, his incoherent and paradoxical political narrative often resorts to ethnic-labelling, stirring emotions of victimisation among Sindhis on several occasions and pointing fingers at privileged Punjabis on several others. When he talks about a new province for Southern Punjab, he makes it a point to give it an ethnic colour. Even the PPP's war on the independent judiciary has been painted in ethnic shades, accusing the courts of prejudice against Sindhi leaders and being soft on leaders from Punjab. The heir to the PPP throne, Bilawal Bhutto Zardari, parroted his father's devious logic recently when he asked the present Supreme Court to apologise for the mistrial of his grandfather more than 30 years ago.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21189
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 09 Apr 2012 05:50

Poaq high intellectual secret in beating India in IT tech

Our teachable moments
Whether Pakistan is a failed state or not, it has certainly failed, with high passing marks, in the classrooms of our schools. Take the example of the matriculation examinations that began in Sindh this week. There were numerous media reports of how so many students at various locations indulged in cheating. It seemed to be a massive, collective exercise. And this is a spectacle that is repeated every year.One would naturally wonder if our educational authorities, assisted by the local administration, are incapable of holding public examinations in a credible manner. If this is so, there is no point in debating larger issues and more serious matters. Or is it that they just don’t care about this inestimable manifestation of our educational, moral and intellectual bankruptcy?Some reports on our news channels were truly astounding. It is widely known that photo-copying machines are sealed by the police in some towns on days when public examinations are held so that solved papers are not widely distributed and there is no cheating on a wholesale scale. Yes, you also have news of a few arrests. But the impression that the entire system stinks is hard to suppress.On the face of it, the conduct of matriculation or college examinations is not an acceptable peg for a column when the nation is grappling with such life-and-death issues as the violence in Gilgit and the evolution of Pakistan’s relations with the United States.It can be argued that our news channels, forever chewing the political cud, have failed to promote an environment in which serious issues can be objectively explored with the participation of social scientists and researchers. Our catalogue of social derelictions is updated on a daily basis. Because of their visual coverage, we have witnessed some unbearable episodes such as the Sialkot lynching or the heartless murder of an unarmed man by the Rangers in Karachi.Why were these atrocities possible? What do we learn from them? What nexus is there between our national security policies and the growth of religious radicalism? How can we build social capital and nurture tolerance in the society? Every question, and there are a lot of them, would demand a reasoned and coherent debate, leading to necessary corrective measures. Instead, we are served with inane political squabble.When they draw their index of failed states, they systematically rely on quantitative indicators and qualitative analyses done by experts. We can quarrel about where Pakistan should be placed in these indices. But the sight of cheating in examinations at such a large scale is clearly an attribute of a failed state.


( Miyan Ghazi, prayers are more important than education but too bad looting season is over ,so no expansion ,enjoy the natural state of being Poaqworm)

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby shiv » 09 Apr 2012 06:26

saip wrote:The President has lunch and COAS personally supervises resuce.

“There is no hope, there is no chance at all,” mountaineering expert Colonel Sher Khan told AFP.

“You can survive only in the first 5-10 minutes,” said Khan. “The casualties in avalanches occur due to pressure of heavy weight, extreme cold and lack of oxygen.”

The powerful army chief General Ashfaq Kayani visited the epicentre of the disaster and “supervised rescue operations himself”, the military said.


There you go. Does a puny avalanche have a chance when the powerful guy turns up? I am sure avalanche has gone back and all is well now in Pakiland!

Link


One of the dead is likely to be the son of a relative. That is why Kayani was there. The ethos of that army is not going to change due to one avalanche killing a piffling 100 men. Don't you know that more than 3000 Pakistani soldiers have died fighting America's war on terror against Muslims? And the Paki army did not bat an eyelid losing 3000 men in Kargil.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby shiv » 09 Apr 2012 06:28

Altair wrote:I find the timing of the trip to the dargah a bit odd. The trip to Ajmer might have been planned much earlier but these can be cancelled or postponed if situations demand.There has been a tragedy back home where 130+ soldiers became allah ke pyaree. Many heads of state would cancel visit under similar circumstances. Why did Zardari not cancel/postpone the visit? What message does it send to the Paki Army and most importantly to us?

Remember what Zardari was doing during the floods in 2010? He was in London.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby shiv » 09 Apr 2012 06:38

Rohit_K wrote:Someone has marked the army camp and avalanche zone on wikimapia

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=35.2132147&lo ... rch=gayari

Edit: the gayari camp was marked a year ago so the location of it is correct. The avalanche might have come from the mountain on the east as opposed to the west side that was marked 2 days ago.

That looks like a substantial base. I wonder how the men higher up are getting their supplies. I am sure everyone is watching carefully. Or maybe they have been asked to do the traditional Pakistani thing. Downhill ski.

The area is dangerous and India lost men in an avalanche recently. I regret the latter.

Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Satya_anveshi » 09 Apr 2012 06:58

shiv wrote:Remember what Zardari was doing during the floods in 2010? He was in London.

Hakim ji,

I am sure you are aware that Z's dad Hakim Ali Zardari :wink: famously called Djinnah pagal ka baccha in the context of making Urdu the only language of pukistan. One can imagine the background that Z was bought up in being the head of their tribe, the prison terms and lot of ignominy he suffered at the hands of pakjabis. I just hope he gives the pakjabis back with everything he got.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21227
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Philip » 09 Apr 2012 07:04

It would be wrong to gloat over the death of any enemy's troops killed in such manner,esp.in peacetime.We have also lost s Shiv says more men to nature's fury than Paki troops.Ideally,an agreement between India and Pak,that can hold,on Siachen would limit in future such casualties on both sides,and perhaps there is a silver lining that can be gained form this tragedy if it produces movement on such an accord.

We are informed that an agreement on Sir Creek is around the corner.Let's see.One visit (by the Zardar) doesn't make a settlement. Indo-Pak relations are a minefield that needs careful cautious demining.While the Zardar was very welcome on his private visit, the sideshow of Bilawal meeting Rahul ,the two clown princes,as some would describe them both,was comedy.Had the new CM of UP been present it would've had some meaning!

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21189
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 09 Apr 2012 07:18

There are hardly noticable numbers of Sindhi in Poaqarmy. Poaqjabi army dont need Sindhi-Balochi President when they can call upon Green attire wearing Djinn like in 65 or White horses flying/ ridding Ddjjiins rserved for Ghazawa be Hind.
OTOH, what are the chances for Poaq' hiding small nuke there .

Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Satya_anveshi » 09 Apr 2012 07:19

shiv wrote:One of the most difficult things to face up to for any human is the fact that you are stupid because your father was a brainless half-wit. Pakistanis are faced with that situation. En masse. Their thoughts and actions are guided by the stupidity of their now-dead leaders whose policies and education have made Pakis what they are. It is very very difficult to admit stupidity, and admitting that my pop was also stupid is so difficult it would be better to shoot the guy who says that rather than admit it. I mean just put yourself in that position. If you admit that both you and your father were wrong it means that your entire bloodline is one of utter stupidity. Pakistan caste. Once a Paki always a moron. :rotfl: Pakistan is a mass psychiatric case and could get worse as the cognitive dissonance spreads.

Of course laughing is one thing. But after having a good laugh I believe it is better to "handle" Pakis as doctors handle psychiatric cases. Don't laugh and deal with compassion. I am serious. I mean every doc would have faced the situation of man coming to Emergency with candle or torch stuck up his backside and saying he can't get it out after he shoved it up. In any other situation people would have a rip roaring laugh. But not in the emergency room.


Excellent ! This is kind of captured in this aphorism:
Runa Karta Pita Shatru
Putra Shatur Apanditaha

Father who leaves debt is like an enemy of the son and a dumb/stupid son is like an enemy of father. Puki father has ammased huge debt of all kinds from all and sundry...and the system leaves the son anything but dumb.

Remedy is to break away from father's debt (ie., break relationship with US and UK) and start educating yourself the right away.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby shiv » 09 Apr 2012 07:33

I see Zardari as "one wing" of an interesting "balance of power" being played out in Pakistan. Technically Zardari represents the "corrupt politician" that the Pakistan army has always held in contempt and has systematically eliminated, deposed or sidelined. In theory, if one were to look at the history of Pakistan, the army could remove Zardari any time and the fact that Zardari stays in power despite having open rifts with the army is an interesting commentary on what is happening in Pakistan.

There are two ways of looking at this

1. Nothing has changed. Th army is just waiting for the right moment when they can seize power. The only signal the army looks for is that the civilian population of Pakistan must be sick and tired of the civilian "government" and want the army to step in - an act that they will welcome as they have done in the past.

2. Something has changed. the army finds that it is unpopular despite Pakistan being in bad shape. Multiple events have tarnished the army's image starting from Lal Masjid, to Osama bin Laden's killing and the idea that the army benefits from allowing US drones to operate in Pakistan and the inability of the Paki army to do anything about those drones.

The possibility here is that the people of Pakistan have figured out that it is their army who is in cahoots with the US despite proclaiming that the army is pro Pakistan. The Paki army has been using its proxies like Hafiz Saeed to propagate anti-US sentiment while they come out looking squeaky clean. The Paki army, having encouraged the forces of Defy Pakistan (Difa-e-Pakistan) can't back out in public. But a coup won't help them either.

Zardari in my view is a brave man. He is made of tougher stuff than I imagined. He is hanging in there knowing that the army will get him if he makes one wrong move. Clearly travelling to India is a move that Zardari sees as perfectly safe.

As an aside, here is another take on the avalanche. Call it my own "high hopes" take. The Pakistan army may use the avalanche to do a unilateral partial withdrawal from Siachen. Let us see. If they are withdrawing they will announce it in public as "No withdrawal from Siachen"

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21189
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 09 Apr 2012 07:47

Doc,
U mean the excuse of human tragedy will be used as face saving method and MMS will oblige ordering same. Then i wonder how much of VKS panga is part of the same game? Funny thing is , BRF had dicussion on this possibe strategy couple of years ago.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55197
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby ramana » 09 Apr 2012 08:18

Jhujar, Wasn't Yeltsin an excuse of human tragedy who brought down the Generals Coup in FSU?

What Pak needs a leader who has everything to gain by staring the kabila guards down. At same time the US has to make it clear without nay equivocation that they plan to cut the cord to the Army unless it accepts civilian control. This stage managing by running with the politicians and hunting with the Army has to stop.

BTW they did this with the Nazi scientists too in earlier times.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby shiv » 09 Apr 2012 08:30

Jhujar wrote:Doc,
U mean the excuse of human tragedy will be used as face saving method and MMS will oblige ordering same. Then i wonder how much of VKS panga is part of the same game? Funny thing is , BRF had dicussion on this possibe strategy couple of years ago.


Jhujar - I have said nothing about MMS. I have only speculated about the possibility that the Pakistan army could use this "avalanche" as an excuse. Only my high hopes about the Paki army and not about MMS. It is an Indian political opinion to predict MMS's hypothetical reaction to a hypothetical Pakistani army tactic. MMS can do that even without Pakistanis doing anything. Avalanche or no avalanche.

Altair
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2620
Joined: 30 Dec 2009 12:51
Location: Hovering over Pak Airspace in AWACS

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Altair » 09 Apr 2012 08:34

shiv wrote:Zardari in my view is a brave man. He is made of tougher stuff than I imagined. He is hanging in there knowing that the army will get him if he makes one wrong move. Clearly travelling to India is a move that Zardari sees as perfectly safe.


Shiv,
Firstly,The Army is letting Zardari hold power only to get the "aid money". A coup will seal the money source.US will also order foreign accounts freeze of Paki Generals under pseudo names.
Secondly,I guess Zardari has much more leverage on the Paki Army than we give him credit for and he is playing his cards well.
I wonder what that leverage he could possibly have! Some real hard evidence on Paki Army dirty laundry??
Did he visit India as an Insurance if $hit hits the fan?
Altair

member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby member_22872 » 09 Apr 2012 08:49

Altair garu,
From memo gate example it doesn't look like Z has TSPA has it by ball$. He seems to be buying his time, but I agree all this democracy charade is for US money, true army too has lost its H&D in the eyes of Poaqs, but Z is still not in a position to do a lot to pull the rug underneath TSPA. He still is a scared cat.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12598
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Apr 2012 11:04

shiv wrote:
Rohit_K wrote:Someone has marked the army camp and avalanche zone on wikimapia

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=35.2132147&lo ... rch=gayari

Edit: the gayari camp was marked a year ago so the location of it is correct. The avalanche might have come from the mountain on the east as opposed to the west side that was marked 2 days ago.

That looks like a substantial base. I wonder how the men higher up are getting their supplies. I am sure everyone is watching carefully. Or maybe they have been asked to do the traditional Pakistani thing. Downhill ski.

The area is dangerous and India lost men in an avalanche recently. I regret the latter.


I was just thinking, were Pakis upto something Fishy and built substantial no. of troops to try something Kargil type which went wrong, it is that time of the year. So the casualties may not have happened at gayari camp but somewhere higher up when this new tactically brilliant plan was being implemented?

Hope or guys are wathing this, MMS should have spun this as a good time for AGPL to be signed in writing to Zardari.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12598
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Apr 2012 11:16

shiv wrote:I see Zardari as "one wing" of an interesting "balance of power" being played out in Pakistan. Technically Zardari represents the "corrupt politician" that the Pakistan army has always held in contempt and has systematically eliminated, deposed or sidelined. In theory, if one were to look at the history of Pakistan, the army could remove Zardari any time and the fact that Zardari stays in power despite having open rifts with the army is an interesting commentary on what is happening in Pakistan.

There are two ways of looking at this

1. Nothing has changed. Th army is just waiting for the right moment when they can seize power. The only signal the army looks for is that the civilian population of Pakistan must be sick and tired of the civilian "government" and want the army to step in - an act that they will welcome as they have done in the past.

2. Something has changed. the army finds that it is unpopular despite Pakistan being in bad shape. Multiple events have tarnished the army's image starting from Lal Masjid, to Osama bin Laden's killing and the idea that the army benefits from allowing US drones to operate in Pakistan and the inability of the Paki army to do anything about those drones.

The possibility here is that the people of Pakistan have figured out that it is their army who is in cahoots with the US despite proclaiming that the army is pro Pakistan. The Paki army has been using its proxies like Hafiz Saeed to propagate anti-US sentiment while they come out looking squeaky clean. The Paki army, having encouraged the forces of Defy Pakistan (Difa-e-Pakistan) can't back out in public. But a coup won't help them either.

Zardari in my view is a brave man. He is made of tougher stuff than I imagined. He is hanging in there knowing that the army will get him if he makes one wrong move. Clearly travelling to India is a move that Zardari sees as perfectly safe.

As an aside, here is another take on the avalanche. Call it my own "high hopes" take. The Pakistan army may use the avalanche to do a unilateral partial withdrawal from Siachen. Let us see. If they are withdrawing they will announce it in public as "No withdrawal from Siachen"



My Personal 2 cents on this looking the chronology of this looking at the last coup, the GHQ khakis don't want to take over when economy is in a shitty face when the common man ire will full force on them, they would much rather let Politicos take the blame.

Look at the last coup.

Oct 1999- Mushy throws out NS

Dec-1999- IC814 - Omar Sheikh and Massod Azhar get released

Sept 2011- 9/11- Funding organised through Omar Sheikh

2002-04, America opens purse strings and Army rule in Pakistan gets ssuper popular

June 07- Shit hits American economy, CIA BLACK BUDGETS with estimated annual 5b to Pakistan and monthly 1 billion reimbursements and accompanying Saudi inflows dry up, Paki economy goes to shitistan state and Musharaf becomes unpopular and people get disillusioned with Khakis.

So unless the Miltary has some geopolitical plan through which bakshish will again flow and make them popular against Paki masses they will not get rid of the Politicos.

r_subramanian
BRFite
Posts: 255
Joined: 17 Mar 2009 11:18
Location: Australia

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby r_subramanian » 09 Apr 2012 11:34

Basheer Qureshi, Jeay Sindh Qaumi Mahaz Chief, was poisoned to death
This is a claim in today's edition of Dawn
Initial medical report of deceased Jeay Sindh Qaumi Mahaz (JSQM) Chief Basheer Khan Qureshi revealed that he had died of poisoning and not natural causes, DawnNews reported.
According to sources Basheer Khan Qureshi suffered a cardiac arrest due to the ingestion of some poisonous food.
...
Talking to journalists, central leader of JSQM Dr Kalani alleged that Mr Qureshi had been eliminated “scientifically by those who could not stomach the nationalist leader’s popularity which was demonstrated during a rally inKarachion March 23”.
...

link

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12598
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Apr 2012 11:38

The biggest peice of crap with I keep reading about Siachen glacier in both Indian and Paki Media is that Siachen was empty when Indian Army occupied it. Wonder why its so convenient to forget the sacrifices of Bana Singh and Co. and the SSG under one Brigadier Musharaf down hill skied there.

Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7024
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Anujan » 09 Apr 2012 12:16

shiv wrote:Zardari in my view is a brave man. He is made of tougher stuff than I imagined. He is hanging in there knowing that the army will get him if he makes one wrong move. Clearly travelling to India is a move that Zardari sees as perfectly safe.


One pisko thing has always amused me. Paki rulers have always craved legitimacy ... from India!! Be it Zia-ul-Haq and his cricket diplomacy or Musharraf who got legitimacy from the Agra summit, to Zardari who seeks vindication as a great leader by making a trip to India.

Somehow Indian leaders talking to them gives them the re-assurance that they have arrived.

Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7024
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Anujan » 09 Apr 2012 12:19

http://dawn.com/2012/04/09/bashher-qureshi-poisoned-to-death/

Apparently the Basheer Qureshi fellow who got his 72 was actually given his 72 by poisoning him.

Vikas
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6828
Joined: 03 Dec 2005 02:40
Location: Where DST doesn't bother me
Contact:

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Vikas » 09 Apr 2012 13:11

Even bigger piece of non-sense is that India should vacate Siachin glacier and it somehow is costing India 100 times more to keep troops up there and it is a drain on INdian economy while Pakis are innocent babes in the wood with no "Kharcha" due to Siachin. So any solution to Siachin would require India to vacate the heights and all will be Honky-Dory.

PS: Well in a way they are right. It is money from 3.5 Friends which is keeping $hittistan interested in Siachin.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10115
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby sum » 09 Apr 2012 14:41

Can some kind soul please explain as to why guys like B.Raman keep swinging from one extreme to another? :-?

Why Kashmir, terror shouldn't obstruct Indo-Pak ties

What we face is an Indian public mindset influenced by the terrorism issue that is as rigid as the Pakistani army mindset influenced by the Kashmir question, says B Raman

:-? :-?
Equal equal between Indian junta and TSPA??

Since the policy of using terrorism and the LeT against India was initiated by the Pakistan army and the terror group acts under the sponsorship of the Inter-Services Intelligence, Zardari, despite all his goodwill for India, will not be in a position to satisfy the Indian demands on the terrorism issue.

Manmohan Singh has been equally cautious because he realises that he will not be able to sell any agreement to the Indian public opinion unless Pakistan gives satisfaction to India on the question of terrorism. Any toning down of past Indian demands on terrorism will not be acceptable to Indian public opinion.

Thus, what we face is an Indian public mindset influenced by the terrorism issue that is as rigid as the Pakistani army mindset influenced by the Kashmir question.

The two rigid mindsets will make it difficult for the two leaders to find a workable way forward despite whatever determination they may have to find a solution to the traditional issues of contention.


We have to think of other ways too of building goodwill and creating a greater comfort level that could ultimately facilitate a solution to the substantive issues.

The present lack of the necessary goodwill and comfort level between India and Pakistan is due to the paucity of contacts at various levels -- people to people, political leaders to political leaders, members of Parliament to MPs, army to army, police to police, etc. Such contacts at the personal and institutional levels will go a long way in removing misperceptions and suspicions and creating a benign mindset shorn of the traditional rigidities.


We should not allow this benign mood in the two countries to dissipate due to continuing over-caution. Let the prime minister go to Pakistan as quickly as he can to build up on this mood without setting for himself any difficult and presently unachievable objective.

At the same time, I would urge the prime minister once again to give serious thought to the question of initiating military to military contacts between the two countries.

Still scratching my head to figure out what caused the U-turn from his earlier article blasting TSP written around 26/11 time. This article almost seems to have been ghost-written by MKB?

rajpa
BRFite
Posts: 416
Joined: 04 Aug 2004 09:35
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby rajpa » 09 Apr 2012 14:54

BRADMINS

Chrome gives me the follow warning on this thread about a link to www.pakpoint.com . Pls check the site for any possible intrusions, since I cant find the link in the page.

forums.bharat-rakshak.com contains content from www.pakpoint.com, a site known to distribute malware. Your computer might catch a virus if you visit this site.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24236
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby SSridhar » 09 Apr 2012 14:59

Zardari's India visit was for two purposes. One was to bolster the image of Bilawal before the upcoming elections. Zardari was after all a stop gap until Bilawal came of age and the baptism for the Bhutto family is always the Indian fire and that has happened. Second is to announce some grand India concession to the Pakistani masses, which is the only sure-shot thing that could turn around the sinking fortunes of PPP in 2013. Unless it is Kashmir, the turnaround cannot be substantial for Zardari. Indian leaders are again being misled the path that somehow supporting Zardari at this stage would keep at bay Imran Khan and his jihadi entourage. The only chance of keeping Imran Khan away from the gaddi is if PPP & PML-N somehow sink their differences once again like how they did in c. 2007. This cannot happen now because of the animosity that has once again engulfed their relationship. Therefore, Zardari's last chance in retaining a significant position for PPP in the Parliament, even if it were not to help him retain power, lies with Man Mohan Singh and he should have really pleaded with him during the 40-minute one-on-one. Zardari has so far shown that he knows the art of surviving.

The PA is *not* going to stage a coup, not in the foreseeable future. This knowledge has given Zardari & Co a never-before-opportunity of not being afraid of the PA. Every time there was a coup in the past, the Pakistani masses welcomed it, at least initially though the novelty wore off soon. They will not do it now. Besides, the 3½ friends will make the situation even worse for Pakistan if a coup happens. Kayani sensed the mood of the people in c. 2008 itself and decided to stay away from coup misadventure. Apart from its traditional hatred for the Bhutto clan, the PA was thwarted somewhat in its usual back-seat driving by the PPP. The latter has been resisting, sometimes successfully and many times not, the PA's hold on power. But, even unsuccessful efforts are worthy of a congratulation, considering Pakistan's history. The PPP will not tame the PA for they neither have the clout nor the full backing of the US yet for such a thing to happen and anyway,not much time is left. Kayani has been trying to garner political support from China now that the US is no longer unflinchingly backing PA anymore in domestic politics. Zardari has been taking advantage of the PA's predicament and trying to gain as much as possible against it. I am not sure if Zardari is fighting the PA because he truly believes that it is taking Pakistan to doom and he needs to correct that course or whether he is simply settling scores of the Bhutto clan and his own personal one for the incarceration and physical abuse at Attock for years. He may be selling the former line to the likes of Obama and Man Mohan Singh while his real intention is the latter.

The PA has therefore formed the Diffa (DPC) and placed a popular civilian face for the PM's position in the form of Imran Khan, a face that they feel could be acceptable to the various stakeholders such as the citizens of Pakistan, the PA, the jihadis, the Islamists and the 3½ friends. Their tactical brilliance is leading to a very dangerous situation not only for the entire Pakistan, but also certainly for India and Afghanistan, China and the so-called Western world. In c. 2002, Musharraf formed the MMA and made them capture power in NWFP. We know that the Al Qaeda and Allied Movements, the Afghan Taliban, the TTP and the Punjabi Taliban got entrenched in FATA and even in settled areas there from where they cannot be dislodged easily anymore. The same scenario will repeat, but on a much grander scale, if the new jihadi alliance gains power federally. Willy nilly, even the judiciary is collaborating in this evil project.

No doubt that at this moment, the US is the most hated nation for the Pakis, even surpassing Hindu India. The PA wanted to slander Zardari by depicting him as a US stooge and enacted the Memogate scandal, but it has not been very successful after the initial excitement. PPP has cleverly formed a committee (PCNS) to formulate Pakistan's foreign policy vis-a-vis the US so that it does not have to take the flak from either side. It, however, missed a golden opportunity to bring down a few notches the H&D of the PA after Abbottabad when it meekly accepted the excuses given by the PA/ISI, refused to accept the resignation of Lt. Gen. Shuaja Pasha and formed a committee instead (including PA officers) that has diluted the blame on the PA/ISI and exonerated them. May be we can only speculate that Kayani & Pasha threatened Zardari/Gilani with some skeletons in their cupboard.

What is interesting to be seen is whether the PA's tactical brilliance would restore its image and the power to the pre-2002 days of glory, after the elections next year (or later this year). If Imran gets to power, which it looks he would unless Man Mohan Singh dramatically swings the fortunes of Zardari, the PA may be even sidelined by the Wahhabi/Deobandi/Salafi groups. However, PA might entertain the ideas of splitting the DPC (Diffa-e-Pakistan Council) just as it has always done in the past whenever its proxies became too big for their shoes. There are certainly some faultlines within the DPC but none starker than that between the LeT and most other groups. They may all unite to dislodge Zardari or protect Professor saheb today against the American bounty, but that does not hide the divisions. The PA might hope to engineer a split using these faultlines, when needed after achieving their immediate goal. Ultimately, it will be the guile of Hamid Gul (the strategic adviser to AQAM) against incumbent DG, ISI Lt. Gen. Zaheer-ul-Islam.

anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8308
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby anupmisra » 09 Apr 2012 17:31

Aditya_V wrote:...were Pakis upto something Fishy and built substantial no. of troops to try something Kargil type which went wrong....


Here's a conspiracy theory to chew on.

Knowing the paki proclivity for perfidy and the timing & scale of this incident, there's a high probability that they (PA) were up to their old tricks when the snow melts. Every ghazi (Kiyani is a dyed in wool ghazi) wants to leave a lasting imprint of his tenure as the next salahuddin. Kargil would have been Mushy's gift to his beknighted nation. We all know what happened to the paki H&D, post-Kargil. This Siachin maneuver could have been Kiyani's. A troop strength of 150 is no longer a side trip to purchase groceries or check out the local babes. This one could have been Kargil-redux. A surprise incursion into the higher reaches of Indian-held positions at the glacier. Pre-empt the zarda-bhutts family holiday to India. However, here Allah did not Insha the pakis and sent another one of his periodic reminders to them that he really does not care about them mixed breeds. A deeper research into this incident is certainly warranteed.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21227
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Philip » 09 Apr 2012 17:52

Shiv,Sridhar,other who have touched upon this point are quite right.There IS a sea chhange in Pak at this moment.For once it is not India who is public enemy No.1 in Pak but the US of A! Pak's long-time bumchum and sugar uncle,who thanks to his drone strikes and the taking out of Psama "the Sheikh",the Islamist superhero,has enraged the Paki in uniform and in the street. In fact the perceived (im) potency of our snake-oil mendicant and hs regime,has helped to reinforce this supposition.

However,it is a double-edge sword and very dangerus game to play,as we all know what happened in '65,when Ayub Khan thought he could repeat a "Chinese take-away" of Kashmir (no. '62 on the menu).The state of the IA as revealed to the world,must surely gladden the hearts of the ungodly.As long as the US remains militarily in Af-Pak with its poklicy of taking out Talib and Al-Q leaders through drone strikes and other covert tricks,it will remain in the public image as the "Great Satan" as Khomeini described it.India's great danger is that with pressure applied upon our endangered species "PM" (aka "plasticene man"),by Uncle Sam,we may give away even beore sitting at the table with Pak,more than what Pak even wants from us!

Gerard
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8012
Joined: 15 Nov 1999 12:31

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Gerard » 09 Apr 2012 18:12


shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby shiv » 09 Apr 2012 18:32



I have a problem with the following suggestion
The Americans helped us to put Pakistan in the question box over Hafiz Saeed by announcing a reward on him. We should have grabbed this opportunity to tell the world how Pakistan is not cooperating with us on the terror front and is openly shielding the most dreaded and wanted terrorists.

Telling the world is of no use. Complaining to others is always mirrored by Pakistan saying how Modi personally murdered Muslims in Guj-rat and that he is wanted in Pakistan as a terrorist.

Pakistan is a unique problem and offers no easy and straightforward solutions.


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests