Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

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shiv
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby shiv » 11 Apr 2012 21:48

abhishek_sharma wrote: Pakis stopped (or reduced) their support to Khalistanis. (They continued their game in J&K).


Sikhs are Indians. I am not sure Pakistan would be able to support them if they did not want support. Sikh issues were mishandled and the militancy had to be crushed, not easy given the reputation that you could skin a Sikh alive but he would not squeal unlike the jihadi pig who would sing after a mere threat.

Pakistan was able to continue in Kashmir based entirely on the ummah/Muslim factor. You cannot call Pakistan's bluff without calling the Islam bluff. Given India's "Hindu majority but secular" reputation it has never been easy for India to do that.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Neela » 11 Apr 2012 21:59

Shiv,
Understood. Didnt strike me that way that this was some kind of war of attrition.
All the stakeholders lost. India lost men and money. Pakistan lost a helluva lot more ..no need to go there. And of course the Amreekis are losing big time ...and I mean really big.
But US cant be here forever. TSP as a nation is crumbling in the borders . One entity has lost the least . so for the first 10-15 years , the report card looks bad. But extend it to 30 - things dont look that drastic.


Time to change my location.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Neela » 11 Apr 2012 22:11

Which brings me to this question: MMS has been accused of all kinds of things . Yet , very little has changed for India . So what kind of leeway does he really have? 10 mins of just-you-and-me time with 10% is nice only for headlines.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Sushupti » 11 Apr 2012 22:23

shiv wrote:Pakistan was able to continue in Kashmir based entirely on the ummah/Muslim factor. You cannot call Pakistan's bluff without calling the Islam bluff. Given India's "Hindu majority but secular" reputation it has never been easy for India to do that.


Dr Saheb confuses more than even Atal Bihari Vajpayee. Nobody knows whether he is communal or secular.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby saip » 11 Apr 2012 22:48

shyamd wrote:^^ Don't read too much into it. it's more of a reflection that it is a withdrawal of risky markets and focus on core biz.


That is right. In fact HSBC sold some its branches in USA too (now my account in NY is owned by a regional bank -- First Niagara)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 11 Apr 2012 22:53

http://news.yahoo.com/siachen-standoff- ... 46285.html
Siachen standoff taking heavy environmental toll

Pakistan and India's military standoff in the frozen high mountains of Kashmir is not only costing soldiers' lives, experts say -- it is also wreaking havoc on the environment.A huge avalanche on Saturday devastated Pakistan's Gayari army camp on the fringes of the Siachen Glacier, where Pakistani and Indian soldiers brave bitter conditions to eyeball each other in a long-running territorial dispute.
Environmental experts say the heavy military presence is speeding up the melting of the glacier, one of the world's largest outside the polar regions, and leaching poisonous materials into the Indus river system.
Faisal Nadeem Gorchani of the Sustainable Development Policy Institute in Islamabad said the glacier had shrunk by 10 kilometres (six miles) in the last 35 years."More than half of the glacier reduction comes from the military presence," he said.Pakistani hydrologist and Siachen specialist Arshad Abbasi gave an even morealarming assessment of the glacier's decline, and said that non-militarised areas had not suffered so badly.
"More than 30 percent of the glacier has melted since 1984, while most of the Karakoram glaciers on the Pakistani side expanded," he said.Troop movements, training exercises and building infrastructure all accelerate melting, Gorchani said.Waste from the military camps is also a major problem, harming the local environment and threatening to pollute the water systems that millions of people across the subcontinent depend upon."Indian army officials have described the Siachen as 'the world's biggest and highest garbage dump'," US expert Neal Kemkar said in an article for the Stanford Environmental Law Journal.The report quoted estimates from the International Union for Conservation of Nature saying that on the Indian side alone, more than 900 kilos (2,000 pounds) of human waste was dropped into crevasses every day.Military experts quoted in local media say a Pakistani soldier dies around every three or four days in Siachen, and the latest disaster has led to louder calls for a negotiated end to the standoff, particularly given the huge expense of maintaining troops at such a high altitude.The cost of the operation is kept under wraps but Pakistani daily newspaper The News reported that Pakistan spends $60 million a year on Siachen and India more than $200 million.
In two countries where millions live below the poverty line this is a lot of money to defend an frozen, uninhabitable patch of mountain, but after nearly 30 years of stalemate, no-one is expecting a swift end to the dispute

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Vikas » 11 Apr 2012 23:03

^ So pakis should hand over the whole Glacier to India, Stand off and save their skin.

"More than 30 percent of the glacier has melted since 1984"
Isn't that good. In few more decades, the glacier will be gone for good and We all will live happily ever after.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 11 Apr 2012 23:07

VikasRaina wrote:^ So pakis should hand over the whole Glacier to India, Stand off and save their skin.

"More than 30 percent of the glacier has melted since 1984"
Isn't that good. In few more decades, the glacier will be gone for good and We all will live happily ever after.

Amazing. The westerners melted the entire north pole which doesn't even belong to them and are now taking advantage of the new sea routes but India has to be in the environmentalist dock because their secret-weapon rabid dog pakis can't get what they want.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Vikas » 11 Apr 2012 23:09

shiv wrote:that we have great strategic thinkers and we will surely succeed.

In fact the plan is openly revealed. No one likes it - at least on BRF. The plan is "peace and friendship with Pakistan". No one wants to believe that this is the plan. Get hit, stay hit and be friends. 1996 to 2012.


Hakim al Bangalori, How is this plan if there is any plan like that in ops any different from a plan to be Dhimmi, semantics be damned.
Make peace even when the enemy is putting you to piece.

1192 to 2012

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby anupmisra » 11 Apr 2012 23:50

VikasRaina wrote:^ So pakis should hand over the whole Glacier to India, Stand off and save their skin.

And they can save some money that is needed elsewhere for improving their drinking water problems.

"More than 30 percent of the glacier has melted since 1984". Isn't that good. In few more decades, the glacier will be gone for good and We all will live happily ever after.

After the glacier is completely melted, the "proposed peace park" can become a reality, visited by both Indians and Pakis to see tropical animals and plants.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Anujan » 12 Apr 2012 00:03

Issue of great concern for all of us. Actress Mussarat Shaheen who played "Haseena Atombum" (photo included to jog memory) has been shot. Initial reports indicate either she hasnt been hurt or hurt in a minor way.

Image

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby vnadendla » 12 Apr 2012 01:01

If you read some posts on this thread and don't know anything else you may be forgiven for thinking Pak's policy is successful. Lets not lose sight of the fact that India = Success and Pakistan = Failure over last generation. There is no practical scenario under which this will be reversed in next 10 generations. The best that can happen = India = Success and Pak = hanging in there. Thats the bottom line.

Give some credit to the Politicians and Babus for doing this. They have a policy. We can call it "Shit Happens! Lets ignore it and not lose sight of whats important."
Last edited by vnadendla on 12 Apr 2012 01:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 12 Apr 2012 01:07

>> Lets not lose sight of the fact that India = Success and Pakistan = Failure over last generation.

This equation looks valid if we ignore thousands of Indians killed in terrorist attacks. Moreover, we did not cause Pakistan's failure. In fact, Gujral and MMS doctrines only delay Paki failure (by economic incentives).

>> Give some credit to the Politicians and Babus for doing this.

I will give credit to you for suffering from selective amnesia.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby rohitvats » 12 Apr 2012 01:20

the most amusing part about that glacier melting report is that it is by a Pakistani "Siachen Expert" - an expert who in all probability would not even have been any where close to Siachen.....what comedy, I tell you.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 12 Apr 2012 01:23

rohitvats wrote:the most amusing part about that glacier melting report is that it is by a Pakistani "Siachen Expert" - an expert who in all probability would not even have been any where close to Siachen.....what comedy, I tell you.


Poaq Policy is like this
Image

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby vnadendla » 12 Apr 2012 01:27

abhishek_sharma wrote:>> Lets not lose sight of the fact that India = Success and Pakistan = Failure over last generation.

This equation looks valid if we ignore thousands of Indians killed in terrorist attacks. Moreover, we did not cause Pakistan's failure. In fact, Gujral and MMS doctrines only delay Paki failure (by economic incentives).

>> Give some credit to the Politicians and Babus for doing this.

I will give credit to you for suffering from selective amnesia.



We caused Pakistan failure - by being successful. I don't think we delayed their failure any way by (by economic incentives). We were and are not yet that powerful.

Thousands of Indians killed in terrorist attacks. So lets go to war and get destruction on us (doesn't matter what happens to them)? Let us lose this opportunity to get rich and powerful and curse generations of Indians to poverty or worse.? The enemy wants a reaction. It is not in our interest to react at this time. Things are going our way. You think Pakistan will be sponsored by someone in 2050? Can someone pay their Arms bills? When India is the Largest or Second largest economy?


Selective amnesia - No. Just realised this is not time for action.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 12 Apr 2012 01:35

vnadendla wrote:We caused Pakistan failure - by being successful. .


Post this line in the trash thread. It should be archived there.

vnadendla wrote:
I don't think we delayed their failure any way by (by economic incentives).


Use common sense more often. What is the meaning of "incentives"?

vnadendla wrote:
So lets go to war and get destruction on us (doesn't matter what happens to them)? Let us lose this opportunity to get rich and powerful and curse generations of Indians to poverty or worse.? .


This type of logic has already been included in the Handbook of Lahori Logic (edited by Hafiz Sayeed). If we want to punish Pakistan for its misdeeds then "generations" of Indians will be condemned to poverty. For example, look at Kargil war. We never recovered from it. Instead of using Bofors guns and Mirage 2000 planes, we should have used 4000 printers to print 1000s of dossiers. It would have increased India's GDP by 786%.

You could use a few courses in sound logical reasoning.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby anupmisra » 12 Apr 2012 01:49

abhishek_sharma wrote:

vnadendla wrote:


Go easy guys. We are fighting the same cause.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby abhishek_sharma » 12 Apr 2012 01:54

I know we are fighting the same cause. But we should remember that Pakis are emboldened when their misdeeds are not punished. Why should Pakis *not* plan/execute bomb blasts when they know that there would be no consequences?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby brihaspati » 12 Apr 2012 02:14

The human brain is famous for making both a fox and a rabbit out of the same random Rorschach inkblot. I think there are great insights into the Paki problem over the last few pages, and one of the prime illuminating statements can be formed by just adding five words :

Give some credit to the Politicians and Babus for doing this. They have a policy. We can call it "Shit Happens (to other Indians)! Lets ignore it and not lose sight of whats important (to ourselves)."

shiv wrote:

Gujral was PM from 1996-98
Vajpayee was PM from 1998 to 2004
MMS from 2004 till today

That covers a good decade and a half - around 25% of the time Pakistan has existed.

All these PM's have gone "that extra mile" to accommodate Pakistan. It is another matter that Pakistan, as a nation has not responded favorably to this. All these PMs have done much to "placate" Pakistan, and both Vajpayee and MMS have refused to impose war on Pakistan in response to major (visible) terrorist attacks. The "consistency" of policy has been not to punish Pakistan and not to be aggressive? Why? Is it because of weakness? Fear? "Dhoti/Panche/Mundu/veshti shivering?

Are Indian leaders scared of Pakistan? Could that be the reason? The best answer that I can come up with is that they are scared of making war. Not personally scared - they will be the first to go into nuke shelters, but they do not want to lead the armed forces and country into a war unless war is forces on us by Pakistan. The argument I have heard that "If we can't fight Pakistan, how can we fight China?" is an absurd one because fighting Pakistan does not prove that we are ready to fight China. We just don't want to fight anyone.


So we now know that no one among the top leaders were/are personally "scared". But the we have
shiv wrote
In fact what might have changed is the Islamization after 1971. Islamization took off after 1973 and by 1979 it was transformed into a new beast as the Soviets entered Afghanistan with US aid to the ISI in covert ops.

But Indira Gandhi was good at taking the bull by the horns. She took the bull by the horns in Bangladesh and won the lottery. She took the bull by the horns in Operation Blue Star and lost the game. That in fact not only led to open mutiny in the Indian army but it also allowed Pakistan to host and support the Khalistan insurgency for 10 years. By the time that was stamped out the Islamist galata in Kashmir started. She died, Pakistan survived and became stronger.


So here we have that after taking the wrong bull by the wrong horns Indian leaders lost the game, and after losing the game the leader died, and Pakistan benefited. Although a consequential connection between losing the game and dying and strengthening Pakiland was perhaps not intended - the possibility of drawing such an inference remains open from the statement.

If however there were any doubts, here we have :
shiv wrote
I have no problem with the desire to have someone like her, but I remain skeptical that we will ever get one. It's like hoping for Ram rajya. A hope. We have to live with what we have. But what did covert ops do in Pakistan to stop the insurgency? Ultimately they were all wiped clean right here in India. And guess what? The few that remain are in places like Canada and Britain as well as Pakistan. India moved from crisis to crisis in that era.
1984 Operation Blue star. 1984 Indira assassinated .
1985 Air India Jumbo blown up in mid air.
1987 India entered Sri Lanka. 1989 India came out of Sri Lanka.
1991 Rajiv Gandhi assassinated.

Babri Masjid brought down under PVNR's watch in 1992.
1993 MMS's star rose under PVNR.
1993 Mumbai serial blasts followed by 15 years of intense Pakistan sponsored terrorism, which was "freedom fighting" until 2001


Thus what this whole litany of woes quoted represent is "bold", militant/military punishment of terrorism in the neighbourhood across the current international borders appears to be followed by costs for the top leader in person - either a physical liquidation or losing the top job.

In fact what has been omitted from the list - are the two prior cases of PM's who were quickly out of power, one who had sat over a not-defeated war against Pak followed by a still suspect and mysterious death in a foreign land which was not USA, the one and onlee enemee of India, and the other lost out even after winning the Neeshan but declining US inspection.

However the second one's successor was even more shortlived as PM - after openly challenging Paki nuke ambitions, and doing biratheri with yahudis.

So while some minds are seeing the fox in the inkblot - the superb, melting heart Indian leader who is personally courageous but who is onlee thinking of the pain and loss to his countrymen in not retaliating or playing the friendship card - we have enough data above to think the other way of the rabbit.

That previous penalties meted out personally to leaders who hit back at externally sponsored terror and lost personally - has set a precedence for Gujral I, Gujral II, and Gujral III and Gujral X's to come.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby anupmisra » 12 Apr 2012 02:22

New wave of well-off Pakistani women drawn to conservative Islam

Where's my "I am truly and deeply shocked :shock:" button?

All the women working in the information technology division of the Bank of Punjab's headquarters in the western Pakistani city of Lahore wear headscarves tightly wound around their cheeks and chin, framing their faces as they tap at their keyboards. A year or so ago not one covered their heads with the hijab.
"I was the first," says 28-year-old Shumaila. "I showed the way to the other girls at work."
It is part of a broader cultural and religious shift seen in the country over decades but which observers say has accelerated in the past 10 years.
"The other girls who were working with us left." Shumaila said. "They found the new environment a bit unfriendly."
JI, like its counterparts elsewhere in the Islamic world, has traditionally recruited among the lower middle class. But the new wave of devotion is now touching the elite in a new way. Al-Huda (The Guidance).... has gained a foothold among the upper reaches of society.
"People who grew up within the war on terror are asking, what does it mean to be a Nato ally? Is India our worst enemy?
"Everything we learn comes from the Qur'an. Maths, computers, banking – the Qur'an contains everything,"
In Lahore, the al-Mawrid institute is attracting more and more "educated ladies, doctors, professors, housewives who do not know about Islam"
Shumaila, the bank worker and Apple enthusiast, says she is not interested in events in the Middle East: "We've enough going on here."


Amen to that!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby nachiket » 12 Apr 2012 02:33

^^AoA! As we always say here, the solution to all of pakistan's problems is more islam.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Anujan » 12 Apr 2012 03:02

Heart wrenching story about Hafiz-e-Pig's brother who is facing deportation proceedings in.....US!!

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007/05/11/story_11-5-2007_pg7_48

Hafiz Saeed’s brother, Imam Muhammad Masood, and his family will have to wait for five more months before they learn whether they are to be deported from the United States or allowed to stay.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Satya_anveshi » 12 Apr 2012 03:09

Bji,

do we also have a parallel from pukiland in that they come to power on very agressive agenda (anti-India ofcourse) and over time when they start reconciling they are either bumped off or sent out.

[*]Bhutto starts off agressively, loses half the nation, goes for shimla agreement and then bumped off
[*]Zia radicalized Puki Army but when he started going bit soft with cricket matches etc...bumped off
[*]BB starts off agressively and then hobnobs with RG and then sent out
[*]Nawaz Sharif - jihadi in chief starts agressive and then starts indulging with Vajpayee with Lahore Bus Yatra...removed and sent out
[*]Mushy starts off agressively, goes and sits on kargil, is made famous as benevolent dick but when tries to recon...it is time for democracy and is removed
[*]Curiously BB makes a press statement a day before the assassination (on the provocation of our own Knight of Ghandhi family Sir MKN) and divulges that she helped RG quell punjab militancy - bumped off

So people gain power being Anti-India and when they show inclination for reconciliation are bumped off or removed. I am not necessarily implying cause/effect but there seems to be high correlation.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Sudip » 12 Apr 2012 03:13

Heres some major BS from those who shoot tribesmen in cold blood and deny to recognise their own men...but posting it to show the infrastructure/equipment on their side. Better to mute the sound while watching.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Anujan » 12 Apr 2012 03:16

^^^
The festering Siachen problem is that India has Siachen and Pakistan has a problem with that.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby brihaspati » 12 Apr 2012 03:19

Satya_anveshi ji,

Or they are given the fatwa of endgame and then they try to hobnob with yeevil yindus as a last minute hope. But there must be a constituency there which listens to the next Paki aspirant that he/she will continue the jihad more seriously than the previous one, so that the previous one could be qatal-ed. But they have onlee two refugee shelters - the western shores of the Gulf or Londonistan. So depending on who goes where with his/her tails it may also depend on the puppet master's own game plans.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Prem » 12 Apr 2012 03:22

Anujan wrote:^^^
The festering Siachen problem is that India has Siachen and Pakistan has a problem with that.


Glacier is melting becuase of Paki Nukes stored there.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Satya_anveshi » 12 Apr 2012 03:37

brihaspati wrote:Satya_anveshi ji,

Or they are given the fatwa of endgame and then they try to hobnob with yeevil yindus as a last minute hope.


Bji,

I didn't follow that. If they are given fatwa of end game, why will they hobnob with yindoos??...How can yindoo rescue? How do they explain their agressive behavior/paap karm during hobnobbing and make a pitch to extract concessions. Dhoti shiverer suffers from allergy to ambiguity..he will talk namby-pamby but will never sign on the line.

Track record shows..you reconcile..you are dead or out. Legacy is one explanation but that means recon again.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Rudradev » 12 Apr 2012 04:04

shiv wrote:All these PMs have done much to "placate" Pakistan, and both Vajpayee and MMS have refused to impose war on Pakistan in response to major (visible) terrorist attacks. The "consistency" of policy has been not to punish Pakistan and not to be aggressive? Why? Is it because of weakness? Fear? "Dhoti/Panche/Mundu/veshti shivering?

Are Indian leaders scared of Pakistan? Could that be the reason? The best answer that I can come up with is that they are scared of making war. Not personally scared - they will be the first to go into nuke shelters, but they do not want to lead the armed forces and country into a war unless war is forces on us by Pakistan. The argument I have heard that "If we can't fight Pakistan, how can we fight China?" is an absurd one because fighting Pakistan does not prove that we are ready to fight China. We just don't want to fight anyone.

Pakistan knows damn well that India is not willing to make war and that is why they provoke. India seems to be behaving like "big brother" and taking blows and not doing anything.


Shiv, IMHO this has more to do with the Threshold of Collapse that exists on the scale of force we are able to apply to Pakistan. Our military readiness (or lack of it) against China is a completely disconnected matter, and our willingness to fight Pakistan has nothing to do with our capacity to fight China.

Indian military action against Pakistan (not counting defensive wars initiated and provoked by Pakistan,) can occur at any point along a wide spectrum of magnitude. We can take actions that are below the Threshold of Collapse, or greater than/equal to the Threshold of Collapse. The Threshold of Collapse is that amount of military force which, when applied to Pakistan, causes its national institutions (chiefly the armed forces and ISI) to cease functioning effectively.

I'm not even going to consider nuclear deterrence, etc. because all that does is confuse the issue. It becomes a convenient hook for both governments to hang justifications of their respective policies: Pakistan says "we are invulnerable because we have the bum and India will never attack us", while India says "the risk of nuclear war is too great to justify an attack". Both of those rationalizations are complete BS IMHO. The real reason we won't go to war against Pakistan is the Threshold of Collapse and nothing else.

Let's remember something. Even in 1971 there was a real suit-boot-shivering fear in Washington DC that the Indian Army was not only going to separate East Pakistan, but completely destroy West Pakistan as well. Even back then, we had that capability. Since then the power disparity has only increased. Pakistan has become dysfunctional, and India has become the 4th largest economy in the world. So... even in 1971 the Threshold of Collapse was very well within reach of Indian capability. Even earlier... in 1965, the reason we didn't march into Lahore was exactly this, the fear of crossing Threshold of Collapse. Today that Threshold is very very easily within reach of the Indian armed forces... so much so that we have to be careful in calibrating military operations against Pakistan, as you would be careful when whacking a pet dog so as not to cause any serious harm.

Today the strategic calculus in Delhi is that any action we take against Pakistan that is *lower* than the Threshold of Collapse, doesn't bear a satisfactory cost-benefit ratio. If we hit them with a calculated amount of force that is less than needed to collapse the state of Pakistan-- we will expend lives, wealth and political capital but the effects will not be enough to gain us anything. In fact, we may end up in a situation like the Israelis faced in Lebanon in 2006... or we ourselves faced with the IPKF in Sri Lanka. A very costly embarrassment, and a blow to our credibility.

On the other hand, if the amount of force we use crosses the Threshold of Collapse... we have to deal with the collapse. THAT is what no sane PM of India wants on his or her hands. Making Pakistan collapse is no problem. What to do afterwards is a bigger problem than all of India's present problems put together. We don't have the resources even to address our present problems: we would be devastated beyond any hope of great power status if the collapse of Pakistan was added to those problems.

And that's why we won't be attacking Pakistan in the foreseeable future. No matter what the pressure from the Indian public, the PM will always prefer to take the risk of withstanding domestic political pressure over the certainty of dealing with post-collapse Pakistan. It isn't Pakistan or its nukes that cause the dhoti-shivering... it is the awful spectre of the aftermath.

Lilo
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Lilo » 12 Apr 2012 04:12


Another recent one on Paki Burkeshwaris
The begum’s burka

If bags and shoes and scarves and outfits cannot speak for themselves, or shrouded under burkas, speak at all, they lose both their power and their social purpose. What good is that diamond bracelet under the tight-buttoned cuffs that cannot be rolled up? What value is there to that couture outfit denied a voice under an itchy piece of beige polyester?

All this leads to the vexing conundrum of projecting both wealth and piety at the same time. What to do when women with no vocation other than the propagation of status find themselves addicted to an exploration that contradicts the competitive spending required of the newly wealthy?

One solution could have been a choice, where the dictates of one is chosen over the other. As per this recipe, the diamonds and drawing rooms would be abandoned for the muted greys and browns that would make the begum undistinguishable from the driver’s wife and go off to collect tomatoes and potatoes from the neighbourhood market.

This could have disastrous consequences. Newly covered aunties would look out from the tinted windows of their Toyota Prados to find the same pale blue geometric hijab from that one shop on Karachi’s Tariq Road staring back at them from the heads of women riding on the backs of Honda motorcycles. Everyone knows that Pakistani society cannot tolerate such confusion of class, mistakes that would make the rich look poor.

Some of the problems emanating from the challenge of projecting piety and wealth with a single garment are pre-empted by the steadily growing influx of Khaleeji Swarovski crystal-encrusted abayas and hijabs.


An example posted on twitter.

Image

saip
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby saip » 12 Apr 2012 04:13

Anujan wrote:Heart wrenching story about Hafiz-e-Pig's brother who is facing deportation proceedings in.....US!!

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007/05/11/story_11-5-2007_pg7_48

Hafiz Saeed’s brother, Imam Muhammad Masood, and his family will have to wait for five more months before they learn whether they are to be deported from the United States or allowed to stay.


Strange, isnt it? Hafeez the Pig is wanted in the USA but his brother is not wanted.

BTW, in case you did not notice this news is 5 years old. I wonder whatever happened to the pig's brother.

Suraj
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Suraj » 12 Apr 2012 04:14

Rudradev wrote:and India has become the 4th largest economy in the world.

3rd largest. We overtook Japan in 2011.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby nachiket » 12 Apr 2012 04:15

^^Rudradev ji, what specific effects of such a "collapse" of Pakistan would be worse than facing regular terrorist attacks which kill scores of innocents?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby nachiket » 12 Apr 2012 04:18

Suraj wrote:
Rudradev wrote:and India has become the 4th largest economy in the world.

3rd largest. We overtook Japan in 2011.

In PPP terms not nominal.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Rudradev » 12 Apr 2012 04:37

nachiket wrote:^^Rudradev ji, what specific effects of such a "collapse" of Pakistan would be worse than facing regular terrorist attacks which kill scores of innocents?


Nachiket-ji, I think if you really think about it, you will see what I mean.

Once the state of Pakistan is gone, we suddenly have 150 million people... we know what type of people... separated from Indian land, property and civilians by no natural boundary for the most part. There are upwards of 20 million automatic weapons among this population, not counting all the left-over hardware that the destroyed Pakistan army leaves behind. Even those of the 150 million people who are not jihadis are useless mouths to feed with no skills, no education and no money.

Once the state of Pakistan is gone, this is what will be right next door, and it will relentlessly keep trying to come inside our territory (just as our own poor villagers relentlessly keep going to the cities for a better life... but the Pakis will be trying with much more frantic desperation.) And they will have friends, family, and "fellow community members" in our own country who will do everything to help them come in.

What are we going to do? Serious question. Short of systematically killing all of them -- impractical as well as unpleasant-- I can't think of any solution. I know a lot of BRF-ites have proposed such solutions as "dividing Pakistan into five states" etc. These hypothetical solutions might be implementable for a completely different India with a radically different political culture, economic climate, security structure and so on... but for the India we live in today, the India that will exist for the foreseeable future given current trends, they are nothing but pipe-dreams.

Today we are a country who can't keep Bangladeshis, Nepalis, Maldivians and Sri Lankans under control, what to say about independent Sindh/Baluchistan/K-P/Pakjab. Hell, we can't even keep the Maoists from dominating vast tracts of Jharkhand, Orissa, Chhatisgarh, AP, Maharashtra and West Bengal. What hope do we have of imposing even the slightest hint of political will over the post-collapse Pakistan?

Right or wrong, the Indian political class has made up its mind. We are not going to do anything that gets us anywhere near that situation. The GOI can survive regular terrorist attacks that kill scores of Indian citizens. It cannot survive anything like the aftermath of Paki collapse.


@Suraj-- 3rd largest, I stand corrected.
Last edited by Rudradev on 12 Apr 2012 04:55, edited 5 times in total.

Suraj
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Suraj » 12 Apr 2012 04:42

nachiket wrote:In PPP terms not nominal.

The metric was implied by the ranking - we aren't anywhere near 4th (or 3rd) yet in nominal terms.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby hnair » 12 Apr 2012 05:01

This one is a LULZ fest

Jhujar wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/siachen-standoff-taking-heavy-environmental-toll-094846285.html

"Indian army officials have described the Siachen as 'the world's biggest and highest garbage dump',"


They are right. There are still some pakis to be cleared.

US expert Neal Kemkar said in an article for the Stanford Environmental Law Journal.The report quoted estimates from the International Union for Conservation of Nature saying that on the Indian side alone, more than 900 kilos (2,000 pounds) of human waste was dropped into crevasses every day.[b]


gora-sahib went around in the morning with a weighing balance and a polythene bags? :eek:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby Rudradev » 12 Apr 2012 05:17

hnair wrote:gora-sahib went around in the morning with a weighing balance and a polythene bags? :eek:


Not gora.


US expert Neal Kemkar said in an article for the Stanford Environmental Law Journal.


http://www.law.umaryland.edu/faculty/pr ... ltynum=849

Solid well-trained useful idiot this guy. Walks around inhospitable climes weighing cr@p at Washington's behest, then writes about it for Stanford journals without staining the upholstery. Not only that, he looks like Shashi Tharoor's younger brother. MUTU chewth.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2

Postby SureshP » 12 Apr 2012 05:43

Saip
Strange, isnt it? Hafeez the Pig is wanted in the USA but his brother is not wanted.

BTW, in case you did not notice this news is 5 years old. I wonder whatever happened to the pig's brother.


He left "voluntarily"

Deported imam expects to be ‘a stranger in my own country’

By Lane Lambert
The Patriot Ledger
Posted Oct 03, 2008 @ 06:00 AM
Last update Oct 07, 2008

For Imam Muhammad Masood, tonight’s flight home to Pakistan will seem more like an exile.

After 21 years in the United States, he’s facing an uncertain future in his native land – with no job, no place to stay, and no family to comfort him.

“I will be a stranger in my own country,” he said. “I don’t know what to expect.”

In an exclusive Patriot Ledger interview before his departure, the former spiritual leader of the Islamic Center of New England’s Sharon mosque said he’s worried about returning to Pakistan at a time when violence there is escalating and political tensions are high.

“It makes me nervous,” he said.
Imam Masood was detained by federal immigration agents for visa violations in November 2006. The government arrested him on criminal visa fraud charges in August 2007, and has since pursued immigration and criminal cases for the same violations.

The imam pleaded guilty to five fraud charges in February, setting the stage for his deportation. He said he decided to make a plea rather than fight the criminal case because “it’s the best way for me and my family.”

Unlike some local supporters, the imam said he doesn’t think the government pressured him to give information on other Muslims or his brother in Pakistan, terrorist leader Muhammad Saeed, with whom he said he hasn’t spoken since coming to America in 1987.

“My life here is an open book,” Imam Masood said. “They had no reason to suspect that I knew anything. I lived in the Boston area the whole time. I was not moving around the country.”

The imam said he’ll continue to speak out against violence in Pakistan, as he has here.

“I’m not that kind of person,” he said of his brother’s terrorist group, Lashkar-e-Toiba (Soldiers of the Pure). “I stay miles away from that kind of thing.”

Once in his home country, Imam Masood said he’ll contact old friends and former associates, and hopefully find a university job teaching economics, the subject he taught before he came to study at Boston University. (He now has a master’s degree in economics from BU.) He expects to live in the capital city of Islamabad, “but I will hunt for a job wherever it takes me.”
He doesn’t plan to seek a position as imam at a mosque in Pakistan, but does intend to continue preaching.

“Preaching is my passion,” he said. “I will never stop that.”

While Imam Masood begins a new life, his wife, Rehana, and eight children will be searching for a new home in Massachusetts. They have been living on the property of the Sharon mosque, but now must leave. With Rehana and his five older children facing their own deportation hearings next year, “it’s very uncertain what we’re going to do,” the imam said.

He hopes they can join him as soon as possible. His three youngest children are American born and may stay near Boston.

Thanks to a last-minute delay of his scheduled Sept. 26 sentencing, Imam Masood’s last day in Sharon was Eid al-Fitr, the Thursday celebration that marked the end of Ramadan, Islam’s holiest season. As family separation loomed, he said this Ramadan was one the most spiritually meaningful of his life.

“If you are going through the hardship, it brings you closer to God,” he said.

Despite his felony conviction, he’s hopeful that he’ll someday be able to apply for re-entry to the U.S., so he can try again for for permanent legal residence.

“I love this country,” he said. “I would love to continue to live here.”

MASOOD AND FAMILY

Muhammad Masood

Spiritual leader of Islamic Center of New England’s Sharon mosque from 1998-2006. Picked up by Immigration and Customs Enforcement in November 2006 on visa violations. Pleaded guilty in February 2008 to five criminal charges of lying on visa applications. Sentenced on Thursday, leaving the United States soon thereafter.

Muhammad Saeed

Brother of Masood and Hamid. One of Pakistan’s most notorious radical Muslim leaders. Founder of a banned terrorist group, Lashkar-e-Toiba (Soldiers of the Pure).

Imam Mahmood Hamid

Brother of Masood and Saeed. Abruptly left his job as spiritual leader of the Worcester Islamic Center in June 2007 and returned to Pakistan. He had been imam in Worcester since 1999.

Imam Abdul Hannan

Married to the sister of the three brothers. Longtime imam of the Islamic Society of Greater Lowell. Picked up with Masood and Masood’s son Hassan in 2006 for alleged violations of immigration laws. Case still pending in federal Immigration Court.

IMAM MASOOD'S TIME IN AMERICA

1988 - Pakistani Muhammad Masood enrolls at Boston University on a J-1 student visa.

1991-93 - Imam Masood once claimed that he returned to Pakistan in this time, then re-entered the United States illegally. But prosecutors say Imam Masood stayed in the United States, lived in Boston University housing, worked as a security guard and parking garage attendant and was at the hospital when one of his sons was born in 1992.

1998 - Becomes imam at Sharon mosque.

1999 - Gets a New Hampshire driver’s license using a false address, according to prosecutors.

2001 - Applies for religious worker visa.

2002 - Applies for green card.

2003 - Government begins deportation proceedings.

November 2006 - Detained by immigration agents. Ordered by the directors of the Islamic Center in Sharon to move from his home on the grounds of the Sharon mosque.

July 2007 - Pleads innocent to federal charges of fraud and lying to immigration officials.

February - Pleads guilty to five counts of visa fraud, putting him on probation until his deportation was settled.

http://www.patriotledger.com/lifestyle/faith/x1129044876/Deported-imam-expects-to-be-a-stranger-in-my-own-country?zc_p=0

Family pleads to remain in US cause they fear Islamic Extremists. :rotfl: :rotfl:

Imam Masood: Threatened, staying out of sight in Pakistan
Feeling threatened, ex-Sharon mosque leader tries to leave homeland


By Lane Lambert
The Patriot Ledger
Posted Sep 24, 2009
BOSTON —

A year after he voluntarily returned to Pakistan, Imam Muhammad Masood is anxiously trying to leave his homeland.

The former spiritual leader of the Islamic Center of New England’s Sharon mosque has dodged a kidnap attempt, according to testimony at a court hearing Wednesday. He traveled to Malaysia and then back to Pakistan this spring, in an unsuccessful search for work.

He tries to stay out of sight, and doesn’t talk to his family on the phone often, but when he does, he tells them that his native country is so dangerous he doesn’t want them to join him.
That picture of the 51-year-old imam’s current life emerged at an immigration hearing for his wife and five of their eight children. (The three younger Masood children were born in Boston and are American citizens.)

Rehana Masood, their son and four daughters are asking the court to grant them asylum. They say they would face serious harm or even death from Islamic extremists in the conflict-ridden country.

“We’re a well-known family,” said Hassan Masood, 27, the oldest child. “They would try to make examples of us.”

The family is facing deportation because their immigration status was tied to Imam Masood’s. When he was found in violation of visa laws, so were they. Their only hope of staying in the U.S. was to plead for asylum.

Detained on visa fraud charges in 2006 then criminally charged in 2007, Imam Masood pleaded guilty in the spring of last year to lying on his application for a green card. Last September, he agreed to voluntary departure.

He arrived at Boston University a J-1 student visa in 1988. He should have returned to Pakistan for at least 2 years, but he stayed and later claimed he did go home.
His family’s fate will probably be decided Nov. 12, when immigration judge Robin Feder issues her decision.

“It’s a difficult case,” said the Masoods’ attorney, retired immigration judge William Joyce of Duxbury. “It’s taken an emotional toll on them.”

During a four-hour hearing, the imam’s wife and children all said they would be at risk if they’re forced to go to Pakistan after 21 years in the U.S.

“This is my home,” said Marya Masood, 23, who was 2 when the family arrived. “Going there would be like a foreign place.”

“I’m as American as I can be,” said her sister Amra Masood, 24.


http://www.patriotledger.com/lifestyle/faith/x180658101/Imam-Masood-Threatened-staying-out-of-sight-in-Pakistan?zc_p=1


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