Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Apr 2012 20:49

Debate on FDI. 12 minutes NDTV video
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-9- ... ity/229335

url edited and corrected. Apologies

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 15 Apr 2012 20:51

Inside job?

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 15 Apr 2012 21:32

shiv wrote: This is EXACTLY the time for India to hang in there. Pakistanis can clear off from the area if they want. I mean come on - I have been sitting on this chair without peeing all day. if I need to pee, I need to pee. I don't say "it's time for all of us to get up and go for a pee now."

The Paki army is under pressure.
1. 140,000 men in the west - that is about 25% of their army - provided the are not lying as usual
2. Waziristan out of control. Bannu attacked today.

Hey but India is the enemy. The Taliban are friends.

The Taliban have gone apeshit in Kabul. But I think they have carefully avoided US tagets. Haven't they?

...and looks like Indian targets as well

-M

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 15 Apr 2012 21:43

welcome back Avram.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 15 Apr 2012 21:49

Running scared of pashtuns

To check the tide of rising Pashtun nationalism, Pakistan’s ISI is promoting the non-Pashtun Taliban who may soon be in control of southern Afghanistan.

While the concept of ‘strategic depth’ was initially said to mean that Pakistan’s Armed Forces would have additional territory available to them in the event of an Indian attack, the reality turned out to be different once the ISI, with the acquiescence of the Clinton Administration, installed its protégé, the one eyed ‘Ghilzai’ Pashtun leader Mullah Omar, in Kandahar, with a so-called Taliban ‘President’ Mullah Rabbani in Kabul. Mullah Omar, incidentally, does not belong to the traditional Pashtun leadership from the Durrani clan. Kandahar, in the eyes of Pashtuns, has historically been their spiritual capital since 1747.

A sustained effort has been made by Pakistan to persuade the Pashtuns in Afghanistan that Pakistan alone is their well wisher. Dislike bordering on animosity towards Pakistan, is, however, a widespread feature of Afghan thinking across the political spectrum, transcending ethnic considerations. But a significant, though diminishing section of the Taliban realises that they are regarded as international pariahs and have no choice but to seek power through the barrel of a gun, with Pakistani support.

A Pashtun dominated, but internationally ostracised regime in Afghanistan, suits Pakistan, because such a regime would be so politically and economically weak that it would be in no position to resurrect sentiments of Pashtun nationalism. No Pashtun worth his salt has ever recognised the Durand Line, imposed by the British in 1893, as the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. The legendary Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan symbolised Pashtun disdain for the Durand Line by insisting he should be buried in Jalalabad. Most Pashtuns believe that their traditional homeland extends from Kandahar to the town of Attock on the banks of the Indus River in Pakistan. Using religious extremism as a tool to subsume Pashtun nationalism is the centrepiece of Pakistan’s strategy in Afghanistan

Pakistan could well be miscalculating its perceived opportunities in Afghanistan, as the drawdown of American forces commences. But, the international community and President Karzai will have to devise political strategies to expose Pakistan’s pro-Pashtun pretensions, if they are to politically counter moves for a Taliban takeover of Southern Afghanistan, bearing in mind that self-respecting Pashtuns have never recognised the Durand Line as an international border, cutting across, what they regard as their homeland.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 15 Apr 2012 22:47

ISI footprints in both the incidents today. First wink wink between talib and ISI in Bannu and then mumbai style co-ordinated attack in Kabul by their graduates.

And GoI want these guys to invest in India. God help us.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 15 Apr 2012 23:10

Whatever happened in Kabul today is a practice run for events in India. ISI has a very nasty habit of practicing before their big pay day. Maino and MMS are way over their heads.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 15 Apr 2012 23:50

http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 318026.ece

I think its the Mehsuds who have a hand in Bannu... Hindu reports that bad Taliban TTP is behind this...
ISI supports good Taliban onlee

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 15 Apr 2012 23:53

What if....10 percenti came to know about forthcoming incident planned by ISI. Then he arranges for sudden unplanned visit to Ajmer and got to talk to MMS in one to one meeting. He gives the details to MMS by assuring that Indian assets are not target . MMS does instant zhapi and showered Zardari with power,visa,petrol and visa deals. Composite dialog has been started. MMS would like to belive that but Baki being Bakis........they will show real colors very soon.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 15 Apr 2012 23:55

RSoami wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 318026.ece

I think its the Mehsuds who have a hand in Bannu... Hindu reports that bad Taliban TTP is behind this...
ISI supports good Taliban onlee

Afgani spokesperson indicated these were Haqqani Talibani for pakistan. It was on CNN.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 16 Apr 2012 00:23

IMHO ,the afghani spokesperson is talking about the terrorists who attacked Kabul and Afghanistan...
In Bannu in Pakistan, its the handiwork of TTP...

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 16 Apr 2012 00:42

RSoami wrote:IMHO ,the afghani spokesperson is talking about the terrorists who attacked Kabul and Afghanistan...
In Bannu in Pakistan, its the handiwork of TTP...

yes. My bad.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 16 Apr 2012 01:06

the problem is as follows
do while
1. unkil wants zardari to talk peace with mms
2. unkil wants mms to talk peace with zardari
3. unkil wants 'normalisation' of civil governance in pakistan
4. pakmil does not want 3.
5. pakmil creates conditions for 1 and 2 to fail, and the best way to do that is to call up hafiz bhai at muridke...
end do

Vinay_D · Post by **Vinay_D** » 16 Apr 2012 01:36

UK police blames Pakistan International Airlines crew for stealing goods
http://www.newstrackindia.com/newsdetai ... goods.html

Islamabad, Apr 15 (ANI): The UK police officials have urged the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) management crew, which included airhostesses and stewards, to stop stealing goods from hotels and shops during their stay in that country.

"I would be grateful if PIA could confirm by return the steps it will take internally to support us as we look to solve this problem together," The Dawn quoted Stuart Ellison, superintendent of Greater Manchester Police, North Manchester Division, as saying, referring to his talks with the Pakistan Airlines.

According to reports, the goods stolen from hotels included gowns, towels, kettles and glasses.

Ellison said that retailers, hoteliers and individuals had been voicing concerns over the conduct of PIA crew.

He added that PIA's reputation was at stake because if a hotel filed a complaint, police would have to take action and detain the suspect and without a backup or standby crew available, the aircraft risks getting delayed.

Meanwhile, PIA spokesman Sultan Hassan claimed the query had been communicated to the department concerned and the response was awaited.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 16 Apr 2012 02:29

If TSPA wants this India-TSP bhai chara to fail, it will act now, it will create a situation in India, which would be difficult for our leaders to support TSP further. God forbid, but if a terrorist attack happens in India, then all this FDI soft speak and all the trade talks can come under great stress that Indian will have to go back at the least. But again, if India still persists in going forward with it's plan to do business with TSP, then I guess TSPA could then turns it's napunsak anger towards it's own government in terms of either coups or replacing it with it's own puppet in terms of IK.
just my thoughts.

partha · Post by **partha** » 16 Apr 2012 03:07

http://tribune.com.pk/story/365368/tali ... n-injured/

hmm..Afghan police and special forces seem to have done well in action against the attacking Taliban. 19 terrorists killed and no Afghan police death reported. Only wounded.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 16 Apr 2012 04:04

Nitin Pai: Put Pakistan on a genocide watchlist

Earlier this month, provoked by a grenade attack, hundreds of militants affiliated to radical Sunni groups stopped buses in Gilgit-Baltistan (a part of the erstwhile state of Jammu & Kashmir under Pakistani control), rounded up Shia passengers and executed them. Similar incidents in the region over the past few months have claimed scores of lives. We do not know how many exactly, because Pakistan has imposed a media blackout. It is already clear though, that the killings of Shias were systematic and carried out with the connivance of the Pakistani state authorities.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 16 Apr 2012 04:15

Polio virus in Pakistan: WHO warns of travel ban

The World Health Organisation (WHO) has warned Pakistan that if the polio virus was not contained, it could face serious consequences such as travel and visa restrictions and sanctions imposed by countries across the world

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 16 Apr 2012 05:05

venug wrote:If TSPA wants this India-TSP bhai chara to fail, it will act now, it will create a situation in India, which would be difficult for our leaders to support TSP further. God forbid, but if a terrorist attack happens in India, then all this FDI soft speak and all the trade talks can come under great stress that Indian will have to go back at the least. But again, if India still persists in going forward with it's plan to do business with TSP, then I guess TSPA could then turns it's napunsak anger towards it's own government in terms of either coups or replacing it with it's own puppet in terms of IK.
just my thoughts.

Actually - it can be the exact opposite. Any action inside India can help GOI to urge the immediacy of increasing trade and allowing concessions. More "economic" ties will decrease the ability of Pakis to strike back - that is the dogma our p-experts use. That is the logic blindly applied to anything and everything - based on a very early 20th century hypothesis, and a highly restricted and scope-limited paper - whose author himself pointed out that his work based on a limited data set should not be used to claim "trade causally decreases conflict".

It is used whenever it helps the political class to justify their building up ties or taking steps in favour of apparently hostile and potentially damaging external entities.

There could be several different possible reasons for the GOI doing this at this time to the Pakis:

(1) The common Anglo-Saxon intel network that spans the subcontinent, and perhaps even has interfaces inside the indigenous intel - have planted the fear in the elite of both India and Pak that Paki state may be irreversibly on the path of "collapse". What could be represented as collapse could actually be a handover or takeover of power by the more jihadi factions of the army as well as Dawaists.

(2) the FDI is a cover for Paki elite to transfer their capital for safekeeping into Indian coffers. The argument that Paki preferred destination for such capital would be Zurich or EU or USA is invalid under the current state of those finances. The govs there are now chhaapa-maarne-wale and might seize such cash on an excuse [even Zurich has recently started pawing booty]. Islamic states like Malaysia area destination too - and some will definitely be hedged there too.

(3) Congrez is politically very very nervous, and the UP elections have thwarted the abhishek game plan. Since the future is uncertain the northern+western networks would hedge on their own and put pressure for more distributed risk sharing on financial terms. Here Paki capital made official may help - since that means the cross border networks can do business with greater efficiency - and also spreads the risk around over a wider area of the subcontinent. This is also the driver behind the clamour for BD financial tie-ups.

(4) USA+UK do not want India to gear up to take military advantage of a change of regime in Pak. The trade argument can be effectively used by the control through the media to thwart such a possibility.

(5) China+USA+UK are very very nervous about the next wave of Jihad emanating from Pakiland. India has to be softened up as much as possible so that the maximum impact is absorbed by India and not deflected away so that Jihadis turn in undesired directions.

(6) IA intel works better and independently because of frontline presence. Hence IA needs to be muffled and the trade propaganda increased about Pakiland.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 16 Apr 2012 05:18

Earlier this month, provoked by a grenade attack, hundreds of militants affiliated to radical Sunni groups stopped buses in Gilgit-Baltistan (a part of the erstwhile state of Jammu & Kashmir under Pakistani control), rounded up Shia passengers and executed them. Similar incidents in the region over the past few months have claimed scores of lives. We do not know how many exactly, because Pakistan has imposed a media blackout. It is already clear though, that the killings of Shias were systematic and carried out with the connivance of the Pakistani state authorities.

I very much doubt that if the shia muslims had known that this is what would happen to them in Pakistan, they would have supported the creation of Pakistan.

Not too late late though, they could demand further partition of Pakistan. For starter Gilgit-Balititstan should demand independence.

SureshP · Post by **SureshP** » 16 Apr 2012 05:58

Brig Siddiqi's concluding article.

Anatomy of military image: the political virus — IV —A R Siddiqi

Once bitten by the political power bug, however, there is no stopping the truly ambitious ones to wait for the opportunity to strike and hasten to create the right circumstances for its success

He continued, “We find, however, that instead of giving us the opportunity to serve our country in positions where our natural talents and native genius could be used to the greatest advantage, important posts are being entrusted, as has been done in the past, to foreigners. British officers have been appointed to head the three fighting services, and a number of other foreigners are in key senior appointments. This was not our understanding of how Pakistan would be run.”The Quaid replied in deliberate and clear tones. Raising his finger, he said, “Do not forget that you in the armed forces are the servants of the people. You do not make national policy. It is we, the civilians who decide these issues and it is your duty to carry out those tasks with which you are entrusted”(Pakistan at the Crossroads by Air Marshal Asghar Khan; Chapter: Soldiers and Politics, PP 31, 32, 33).

On February 15, 1948, the East Bengal Regiment was raised at Kurmitola cantonment near Dhaka. During his first visit to East Bengal, the Governor-General, Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, reviewed a ceremonial parade of the First Battalion of the East Bengal Regiment, Senior Tigers, and complimented the men and officers on their performance. “I am much impressed with the success you have achieved in such a short spell of time. If you work with the same spirit and enthusiasm in the days to come, I am confident you will be second to none as soldiers. During the foreign regime, you were classed as non-martial. It is your country, your own state now and it is up to you to prove your worth.”

According to a pamphlet produced by the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) some thirteen years later, the Quaid’s remarks “created unbounded enthusiasm amongst all ranks, making them conscious of their stake in honour of Bengali Mussalmans.”

Once bitten by the political power bug, however, there is no stopping the truly ambitious ones to wait for the opportunity to strike and hasten to create the right circumstances for its success. General Sir Douglas Gracey, Army Commander-in-Chief (January 1948 to January 1951), in a parting message to General Ayub cautioned him about the existence of a ‘Young Turks’ party, so called after the coup that proved the Turkish army had problems under the Caliphate.

Ayub writes in his autobiography Friends Not Masters: “I took over as Commander-in-Chief on 17 January 1951. General Gracey did not say very much to me when he was leaving. Not much can be done in handing over and taking over a job like this and the new man must start all on his own. But he did mention to me, somewhat vaguely, that there as a ‘Young Turks’ Party in the army. I wanted to know what he meant by that. He was not very explicit, but did say that there were some peculiar people, like Akbar Khan. Two or three months later the Akbar conspiracy, which came to be known as the Rawalpindi Conspiracy, was discovered.” He would find it hard to believe how officers of the ranks of major generals and brigadiers, perfectly sensible people, could be that silly and irresponsible to risk such mad adventures.

The armed forces, on the contrary, had the image of a highly disciplined and organised body aglow with the flush of victory in a great global war. They looked superior to all other institutions in the country — the bureaucracy, the politicians and the commercial classes. The only flaw in the image was that it was uni-zonal, almost wholly identified with West Pakistan, from where the great bulk of the armed forces hailed. In time to come, this single flaw in the military image was to cause most of the diverse inter-wing pulls and tensions retarding the process of national image building. The wing with the predominance of the military forces emerged, quite inevitably, as the stronger of the two wings.

(Concluded)

The writer is a retired brigadier and can be reached at brigsiddiqi@yahoo.co.uk

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2012_pg3_6

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Apr 2012 06:05

UK lord suspended over 'bounty' for Obama

Labour peer Nazir Ahmed is said to have offered the cash for the capture of Obama and his White House predecessor, George W Bush, at a reception in Pakistan in response to an American reward for the capture of a prominent Pakistani radical.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Apr 2012 06:15

Brad Goodman wrote:Polio virus in Pakistan: WHO warns of travel ban

This is one thing that the Pakis can bring in to India as investment.

SureshP · Post by **SureshP** » 16 Apr 2012 06:18

Labour will get rid of him but will require corobarating evidence.

About time this Jihadi was behind bars

Peer suspended after bounty claim

A Labour peer suspended from the party after accusations he called for a £10m bounty for the capture of US Presidents Obama and Bush has denied the claims.

Lord Ahmed is reported to have made the call after the US offered a $10m bounty for the conviction of the founder of a Pakistani-based militant group.

But Lord Ahmed denied offering a bounty, saying he was talking about "war crimes" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Labour Party said if the comments were true they "utterly condemn" them.

Lord Ahmed's alleged remarks, published in the Express Tribune newspaper, were said to have been made in response to an announcement from Washington earlier this month of a $10m bounty for information leading to the arrest and conviction of Hafiz Saeed, the founder of the Pakistani-based Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group.

The Indian government blames Mr Saeed and his organisation of carrying out several militant attacks on its territory, including the 2008 Mumbai attacks.
Lord Ahmed, according to the Express Tribune, said: "If the US can announce a reward of $10m for the captor of Hafiz Saeed, I can announce a bounty of £10m on President Obama and his predecessor George Bush."
Labour investigation

The paper adds that the peer went on to say "he would arrange the bounty at any cost even if he was left with the option of selling all his personal assets, including his house."

The paper said the comments were made at a reception arranged in his honour by the business community of Haripur, Pakistan, on Friday.

A Labour Party spokeswoman told the BBC: "We have suspended Lord Ahmed pending investigation.

"If these comments are accurate we utterly condemn these remarks which are totally unacceptable.

"The international community is rightly doing all in its power to seek justice for the victims of the Mumbai bombings and halt terrorism."
Lord Ahmed, according to the Express Tribune, said: "If the US can announce a reward of $10m for the captor of Hafiz Saeed, I can announce a bounty of £10m on President Obama and his predecessor George Bush."
Labour investigation

The paper adds that the peer went on to say "he would arrange the bounty at any cost even if he was left with the option of selling all his personal assets, including his house."

The paper said the comments were made at a reception arranged in his honour by the business community of Haripur, Pakistan, on Friday.

A Labour Party spokeswoman told the BBC: "We have suspended Lord Ahmed pending investigation.

"If these comments are accurate we utterly condemn these remarks which are totally unacceptable.

"The international community is rightly doing all in its power to seek justice for the victims of the Mumbai bombings and halt terrorism."
War crime allegations

According to Lord Ahmed on Sunday night, Labour party officials had not contacted him before announcing the suspension.

"They have suspended me? That's a surprise to me. I did not know," he told the Press Association.

Asked about the reported comments, he said: "I never said those words.

"I did not offer a bounty. I said that there have been war crimes committed in Iraq and Afghanistan and those people who have got strong allegations against them - George W Bush and Tony Blair have been involved in illegal wars and should be brought to justice.

"I do not think there's anything wrong with that."

He added: "If the Labour Party want to suspend me I will deal with the Labour Party. They will have to give me some evidence."

In 2009, Lord Ahmed was jailed after he was caught sending and receiving text messages at the wheel, minutes before he was involved in a fatal crash on the M1.

He was released after serving 16 days when the Court of Appeal decided his prison sentence should be suspended.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17723890

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 16 Apr 2012 06:28

SureshP wrote:Labour will get rid of him but will require corobarating evidence. About time this Jihadi was behind bars
"If the Labour Party want to suspend me I will deal with the Labour Party.

In a typical braggardish pakjabi way, the grand peer is basically threatening to "set" labor party right. "Dekh loonga main!"

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 16 Apr 2012 06:36

venug wrote:If TSPA wants this India-TSP bhai chara to fail, it will act now, it will create a situation in India, which would be difficult for our leaders to support TSP further. God forbid, but if a terrorist attack happens in India, then all this FDI soft speak and all the trade talks can come under great stress that Indian will have to go back at the least. But again, if India still persists in going forward with it's plan to do business with TSP, then I guess TSPA could then turns it's napunsak anger towards it's own government in terms of either coups or replacing it with it's own puppet in terms of IK.
just my thoughts.

There is no bhai chara per se. On the Indian side, there is at best apathy from majority of the public. Bhai chara for sure in the minds of assorted WKKs, cowards, RNIs etc. On the TSP side, there is bhai chara perhaps from a tiny minority. But coming to you point on TSPA strategy, we all know that theirs', and the vast majority of pakijabi dreams is to fly the Paki flag first in Srinagar and then in Delhi. They want domination aka Moghul rule. So this bhai chara & FDI BS will be carefully calibrated. And of course, they will strike at the opportune moment like they did on 26/11.

This whole circus is surreal and bound to fail, from India's PoV that is. Its not a policy based on real intentions. I mentioned TSP's real intentions above. India has no offensive strategy visa vi TSP except to beg, cajole, self-flagellate, and induce TSP to sue for peace hoping that TSP will eschew confrontation. Yes, in the short term, TSP will muddle along, but make no mistake about their real, long-term objectives.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Apr 2012 06:49

shiv wrote:Debate on FDI. 12 minutes NDTV video
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/the-9- ... ity/229335

Watching this video it seems to me that the GoI has reached the conclusion that there are two Pakistans- or at least more than one Pakistan. Of these two Pakistans, there is one Pakistan that wants peace and the GoI is trying to make deals with that. What is scary is that the GoI is not mentioning the other Pakistan at all and seems to act as if the other does not exist.

For a government that actually faced 26/11 and knows that five infiltrators were killing in Kashmir 2 days ago, this silence mystifies me, and as a person I try not to deliberately label GoI with the usual labels simply because I do not want to clutter my mind with any preconceptions. Sometimes I miss interesting things when I dismiss information as the usual weakness/treachery.

Pillai, who was home secretary to Home minister P Chidambaram gave a talk at his alma mater in Bangalore in late 2010 and I was invited. I had actually put up a summary of his talk here. Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan's parents were sitting right behind me and I spoke to them - although I was mostly overcome by emotion and had a paralysed tongue and a lump in my throat at how stoic they were. Pillai actually gave a very good talk (about internal security and terrorism) and he comes across as very sharp.But right back then in 2010 Pillai stated that Pakistani sponsored terrorism and infiltration based issues were taking second place to Naxaiism and issues in the North East. He also candidly state that he expected that rise of sea levels would inundate Bangladesh in decades to come and India would be taking in refugees fleeing from that.

In retrospect I believe that the GoI is taking the Pakistan issue to be somewhat akin to the Naxal issue. That is, fighting the militant wings does not mean targeting the non fighters and not aiding their development. Pillai was very clear that the Naxals are being funded in part by the government itself as well as by the people. Government employees and functionaries who work in Naxal areas pay hafta to survive and industrial units in the area do exactly the same thing.

But the similarity to Pakistan ends there. The Naxals do not have UN recognition and financial and material support from the USA, KSA etc. The question that arises is what sort of guarantees does the GoI have from say the USA that such funding and support will not continue? After all if we theorize that the USA is egging on the GoI, does that mean that the USA is simultaneously egging in the jihadis to fight by funding the army?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 16 Apr 2012 06:55

shiv wrote: In retrospect I believe that the GoI is taking the Pakistan issue to be somewhat akin to the Naxal issue. That is, fighting the militant wings does not mean targeting the non fighters and not aiding their development. Pillai was very clear that the Naxals are being funded in part by the government itself as well as by the people. Government employees and functionaries who work in Naxal areas pay hafta to survive and industrial units in the area do exactly the same thing.

But the similarity to Pakistan ends there.

Even this is not a similarity. Being forced to pay hafta is different from voluntarily supporting jehad.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Apr 2012 07:06

abhishek_sharma wrote:
Even this is not a similarity. Being forced to pay hafta is different from voluntarily supporting jehad.

Well this is OT and debatable. Jiziya supports jihad, but is hardly voluntary. The government seems to be taking the line that at least some of the "voluntary" contributions are involuntary. The "best hope" I can have is that the secret 10 minute meetings that GoI has "off the record" with Pakis indicate that there are two Pakistans. One Pakistan of voluntary jihad and the other Pakistan of hafta paying jihad. i have no way of knowing if such a construct is correct or not. I am just trying to make sense of GoI's actions without applying the usual labels of "napunsak", "dhimmi", "traitor" , "anti-national", "Pope's instructions" These labels are "easy, convenient explanations". etc. Even the BJP seems to have no fundamental objection to Paki FDI provided they get clarifications from GoI - as per that video.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 16 Apr 2012 07:16

Jiziya supports jihad, but is hardly voluntary.

Jiziya? I was referring to Jihad supported by Pakis. The non-Muslim population in Pakistan is a tiny minority.

Pakis indicate that there are two Pakistans. One Pakistan of voluntary jihad and the other Pakistan of hafta paying jihad. i have no way of knowing if such a construct is correct or not.

I am not saying you believe so. I would like to know how many Pakis wouldn't pay voluntarily for Jihad. No one forces people to drop money in the boxes (owned by LeT and JuD) outside mosques after namaz. And the democratically elected govt of Punjab gave millions to LeT and not many people seem to mind it.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 16 Apr 2012 07:18

[quote]
Actually - it can be the exact opposite. Any action inside India can help GOI to urge the immediacy of increasing trade and allowing concessions. More "economic" ties will decrease the ability of Pakis to strike back - that is the dogma our p-experts use. That is the logic blindly applied to anything and everything - based on a very early 20th century hypothesis, and a highly restricted and scope-limited paper - whose author himself pointed out that his work based on a limited data set should not be used to claim "trade causally decreases conflict".
[\quote]
brihaspati ji, your statment above seems to have similarities to what US does best wrt to TSP. Inspite of TSP has done evertything to subvert the war on terror by it's overt and covert support to taliban and AQ, US has given concessions to TSP through aid and weaponry. Now we seem to ape US in giving concessions in terms of trade and FDI? we too seem to be taking the same route that US has taken either deliberately or because of some reason which you have stated.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Apr 2012 07:29

abhishek_sharma wrote: No one forces people to drop money in the boxes (owned by LeT and JuD) outside mosques after namaz.

Actually Islam does coerce people to do things "voluntarily". No one is allowed to protest so no one can offer any proof that everyone is not _perfectly_ happy_ to "voluntarily" contribute money, not be able to ogle wimmens and walk around in burqas.

Only the occasional brave soul who leaves the faith says what he or she feels. Everyone else is happy. What amazes me is that if everyone is so happy being Islamic, how come we don't find all that attractive. Something wrong with us - avoiding the ultimate peace. It must be great actually - having so many happy and contented people voluntarily contributing money and bodies to the cause.

I believe that there is a logical error in the way we analyse islam and believe that it has a great grip on its followers who are all invariably devout and wiling, even as we use the other side of our mouth to be critical of Islam. Only one can be correct. Either everyone is happy, Islam is the best and we are wrong. Or our analysis is correct and Islam survives by coercion. We have to make the choice about whether we have "split beliefs"

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 16 Apr 2012 07:44

shiv wrote: Actually Islam does coerce people to do things "voluntarily".

Are people forced to contribute to groups like LeT? I did not know that.

shiv wrote: What amazes me is that if everyone is so happy being Islamic, how come we don't find all that attractive. Something wrong with us - avoiding the ultimate peace.

It is probably not fun to live in a country like Saudi Arabia (but try telling that to a Muslim. I have done that.). But if you are already full of kool-aid, why not contribute to the cause of your group? Moreover, weakening the other group improves your relative position.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Apr 2012 07:53

abhishek_sharma wrote:
shiv wrote: Actually Islam does coerce people to do things "voluntarily".
Are people forced to contribute to groups like LeT? I did not know that.

shiv wrote: What amazes me is that if everyone is so happy being Islamic, how come we don't find all that attractive. Something wrong with us - avoiding the ultimate peace.
It is probably not fun to live in a country like Saudi Arabia (but try telling that to a Muslim. I have done that.). But if you are already full of kool-aid, why not contribute to the cause of your group? Moreover, weakening the other group improves your relative position.

We will never ever know if people are all contributing voluntarily or because being seen not contributing is dangerous.

If we assume that the attraction of islam in making people want to kill themselves and fight enemies is so strong, it means that Islam has some intense magic that none of us have experienced and that it probably exerts greater magical pull on people than we give it credit for. All our criticisms of Islam are wrong. We need to enter to see how great it is. We are wrong. We need to pick up the book. Just as we are told.

More likely Islam acts just like the communist regimes of Eastern Europe and Russia where one functionary spies on the other and no one wants to be caught looking less than totally committed for fear of punishment. If the latter explanation is right, all contributions are unlikely to be totally voluntary. I do not think that our critiques are wrong. I do not think there is any magic.

I for one do not believe that islam exerts such a magical attraction that people just give away money and lives with great enthusiasm and cheer. It is plain coercion with punishment of detractors and rebels. No one from inside will ever admit it.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 16 Apr 2012 07:55

We will never ever know if people are all contributing voluntarily or because being seen not contributing is dangerous.

I think SSridhar miyan can comment on this issue. Are people forced to contribute to LeT's cause?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Apr 2012 08:28

LET has armed cadres and access to ISI intel. folks ranging from bazaar shopkeepers visited by a couple of faithfuls with donation box, to big industrialists visited by a higher ranking functionary will need to pay something regardless of how they feel. they have immoveable assets & family which the LET can damage at any time, only the PA and ISI assets is safe from the LET.
nobody will care if the LET guns them down, the body count is fairly high there.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Apr 2012 08:30

Here is some info on the LeTs voluntary collections

http://www.nps.edu/Academics/Schools/GS ... o.%201.pdf

LeT controls many legitimate businesses, including fish farms, a hospital, a market, agricultural
tracts, mobile clinics, and ambulance services. 47 The “farmers and labor wing” at JuD is responsible for
the collection of ushr, an Islamic land tax, which is compulsory for farmers who must contribute 10
percent of their total produce to charity for the provision of essential services, especially in areas where
the government of Pakistan has failed to provide those social services. Notably, the group collects
hides of most of the animals slaughtered during the holy festivals of Eid al-Adha and sells them for a
profit. 49 This practice has emerged as a big boost to the group’s income as it is estimated that during
each Eid festival at least 1.2 million animal hides are collected.

Illegal Activities

LeT’s illegal fundraising activities include false trade invoicing, counterfeiting, extortion, and
involvement in the drug trade. With false trade invoicing, the LeT overcharges for its goods or services.
For example, the group sometimes adds an extra “5 to 10 Pakistani rupees for the jihad to the bill
especially when selling various Jihadi publications.” 51 Conversely, under-invoicing occurs when
Kashmiri carpet dealers reduce the value of their exports to Gulf countries, and the difference in the
true value of the merchandise and the value shown on the invoice returns to India through the hawala

Counterfeiters have enabled LeT to raise money by integrating the genuine money being
brought across the border into Kashmir with counterfeit money. Extortion of money from the local
population is also common with corrupt officials in the Jammu and Kashmir

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 16 Apr 2012 09:01

Why would Pakis buy a record number of OBL's posters if they are not big fans of extremist acts?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/ ... 34x490.jpg

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 16 Apr 2012 09:17

SureshP wrote:Labour will get rid of him but will require corobarating evidence.

About time this Jihadi was behind bars
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17723890

He was already kicked out of the Labour party once when he was arrested in 2007 for dangerous driving. He was allegedly texting around the same time and ran into a stalled car, killing its occupant.
http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/15240245

The 51-year-old, had been jailed at Sheffield Crown Court on February 25 after admitting dangerous driving. He was expelled from the Labour Party when found guilty.

Did Labour take him back in later then?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Apr 2012 09:25

Poaq Prison Play
Dangerous militants among 384 escape after Bannu jail attack

was not clear how many of the escaped prisoners were militants but an official said one of them was Adnan Rashid, sentenced to death for the attempt on the life of Gen (retd) Musharraf. He was among six air force personnel who were convicted by a field general court martial in October 2005. He was a junior technician in PAF, Quetta.The Lahore High Court and subsequently the Supreme Court declined to intervene in the case saying the Constitution did not permit them to look into a conviction by a military court. The official said most of the prisoners did not join the fleeing inmates and 26 of them voluntarily returned to the jail.
Another 11 fleeing prisoners were arrested, seven of them during a search operation in Karak. A search was under way for the other escaped inmates.“It is not clear how the militants managed to come in such a large number without being detected and leave without being intercepted. A high-level inquiry is being ordered,” the security official said.“There has been an intelligence failure and a security failure,” he said.“There was no pre-emption and there was no response while shooting and bombing continued for more than two hours inside the prison. It seems as though there was no real effort to stop the militants or resist them”, the official said.

The banned Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed responsibility for the attack.
“We have released our men without losing a single man,” TTP spokesman Ihsanullah Ihsan said. Bannu adjoins North Waziristan and an official said the fleeing militants might be heading to the tribal agency.The Supreme Court had dismissed Adnan’s appeal against his conviction in March last year and his review plea is pending.“It appears that the attack was aimed at freeing Adnan who had been convicted and sentenced a long time ago. Convictions of hardened militants are too few and implementation of their sentences too late,” an analyst said.