Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 24 Apr 2012 19:49

Blast at #Lahore railway station: death toll rises to 3 http://tribune.com.pk/story/369243/blas ... y-station/

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 24 Apr 2012 19:57

Blast at Lahore railway station - 3 killed, 35 injured, several wounded in serious condition.

bomb was apparently in a bag left in waiting room - Geo News.

@Rezhasan

Its amazing how Karma gets you. I distinctly remember how Pak sponsored terrorism made people feel insecure in Delhi.

I can still recollect the announcements at the railway / metro station "koi bhi lawaris vastu na chuyein, usme bum ho sakta hai.."

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Apr 2012 20:18

shravan wrote:Blast at #Lahore railway station: death toll rises to 3 http://tribune.com.pk/story/369243/blas ... y-station/

India is responsible. Muslims don't kill Muslims. Islam is a religion of peace. Pakistan is a victim of terrorism. More Pakistanis have died fighting ~~wars for America~~ in the war to support terror than for any other reason.

Photo: Indians molesting innocent woman in Cashmere, ripping open her belly to eat her fetus

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 24 Apr 2012 20:19

venug wrote:JohneeG Garu,

I agree with your two points. I think they are true. But I don't know them joining India under conditions of art 370 etc with separate electorate just because them joining Bharat would mean Akhand Bharat would be a good idea. The reason is they are like Sakuni of Mahabharat, they will make every attempt to break the whole from within. It would be difficult to manage internal enemies raging mad, that will only increase with their segregation and pacification with separate electorate etc. if TSP is a failing nation, and they have a need to save something, H&D or whatever is left, then the need is theirs not ours to compromise.
Just my thoughts.

The need is, indeed, theirs. And it is precisely for this reason that they may want to join India. They will do that only when they think that they have no other option. And soon, such time may come.

But, it will be sold as the best solution to India-Pak crisis...the ultimate love-making...greatest re-union...triumph of secularism...victory of peace over war....return of lost younger brother into the family....the greatest moment for Indian nation. In such a great time, people would preach that India should not be too hung up on few conditions placed by pak. After all, when pakis are ready for making such a big sacrifice, shouldn't India also do something.

From an anti-Indian perspective, the first gain of such union would be to demand that India roll back its military program. Now that there is no pakistan threat, India does not need nukes, mijjiles, ...etc.

Of course, the pakis can take a leaf out of the commie book and play the double game within India.

shiv wrote:Pakhanis will never join India under the current dispensation. And India will not accept them. They have spent decades in rivalry with India but that has not taken them far. The best they can do is to stop rivalry. The problem is that "rivalry with India" itself has been used for Paki unity. No rivalry and the unity itself gets upset.

But that is something they have to work out.

Why would India not accept them? Who or what would oppose and what are the points of opposition? As I understand, the principle opposition will come from those parties that fear the demographic increase of minorities. While, those parties that stand to gain by such demographic increase will support the merger.

As I understand, the only thing that is true of the Pakis is that they care for only themselves. Everything else is pretensions. So, if and when, they see that joining India is the only way to keep themselves in power, they will do so in a blink of an eye.

The oligarchy and feudals who have been power for long in Pak may bargain for such a merger with some conditions that will perpetuate their hold on power.

The main reason for merger may be that the descend of pakis into chaos becomes unmanageable. It becomes unmanageable because their maibaaps are not able to piggyback them.

Infact, you have nailed it when you say that rivalry with India is directly linked to the paki nationhood. If there is no rivalry, there is no nationhood. In time, pakis may find that the only nation ready to piggyback them is India.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Apr 2012 20:29

johneeG wrote:Infact, you have nailed it when you say that rivalry with India is directly linked to the paki nationhood. If there is no rivalry, there is no nationhood.

JonheeG, with respect, you are writing like Johnee come lately. The sentence above is a well known fact on and off BRF and I hardly "nailed it"

johneeG wrote: Why would India not accept them? Who or what would oppose and what are the points of opposition? As I understand, the principle opposition will come from those parties that fear the demographic increase of minorities. While, those parties that stand to gain by such demographic increase will support the merger.

Your question is:

If and when the Pakis get sick of their nationhood and decide that the solution is to join India they will offer to do that. And you want me to answer who in India will oppose it. Have I understood your question properly? You think Pakis will do X. I think Indians will do Y. And you are asking me which Indians will do Y in response to your X?

You have made up a hypothetical scenario and my answer too can be totally cooked up and hypothetical, making this conversation meaningless.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 24 Apr 2012 20:32

this is getting boring...even big ied mubaraks can't cheer me up...

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 24 Apr 2012 20:43

BBC too reported this quickly. Wonder if some concerted action is on. Just three people dead in pukistan and beeb is beeping !!

Rajdeep · Post by **Rajdeep** » 24 Apr 2012 20:52

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... n-defeati/

U.S. commander gets no help from Pakistan in defeating insurgents

The top commander of coalition forces in Afghanistan’s Helmand province said Monday that Pakistani troops have been no help in targeting insurgents hiding in safe havens in Pakistan.

“Unfortunately, from my perspective as a tactical commander in Regional Command Southwest, I have had no support from XII Corps,” said Marine CorpsMaj. Gen. John Toolan, referring to the Pakistani military’s divisions stationed in Quetta, where Afghan Taliban headquarters are located.

“I know for a fact that drugs are moving out [of Afghanistan] through Pakistan and lethal aid is coming in on a regular basis,” Gen. Toolan said at the Atlantic Council, a think tank in Washington.

“If I had XII Corps, if I had the Pakistani army support to at least conduct patrols around the border and limit movement across, that would really help. That’s been my focus, but haven’t really been able to get that support,” he said.

Last month, Marine Corps Gen. John Allen, commander of U.S. and coalition forces in Afghanistan, noted corruption and Pakistani safe havens as the two remaining challenges to success in Afghanistan.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 24 Apr 2012 20:54

shiv wrote:
johneeG wrote:Infact, you have nailed it when you say that rivalry with India is directly linked to the paki nationhood. If there is no rivalry, there is no nationhood.
JonheeG, with respect, you are writing like Johnee come lately. The sentence above is a well known fact on and off BRF and I hardly "nailed it"

In that case, you have re-nailed it.

johneeG wrote: Why would India not accept them? Who or what would oppose and what are the points of opposition? As I understand, the principle opposition will come from those parties that fear the demographic increase of minorities. While, those parties that stand to gain by such demographic increase will support the merger.
Your question is:

If and when the Pakis get sick of their nationhood and decide that the solution is to join India they will offer to do that. And you want me to answer who in India will oppose it. Have I understood your question properly? You think Pakis will do X. I think Indians will do Y. And you are asking me which Indians will do Y in response to your X?

You have made up a hypothetical scenario and my answer too can be totally cooked up and hypothetical, making this conversation meaningless.

You asserted that India will not accept pakis. I wanted to know the basis of that assertion.

My point or hypothesis is that when paki oligarchy(army, mullah, and feudals) have no other option of saving their nationhood and their power, they will look towards India. As you have said, when rivalry with India ends, the very basis of paki nationhood ends.

So, the next step would be to officially merge into India while taking care to keep conditions that protect their position, privileges and demographic size.

Would India reject an offer from pakis to undo partition?

PS: While the scenario maybe hypothetical, the analysis of possible Indian reaction may not be hypothetical. In any case, many things that are discussed in the forums are hypothetical or hypothesis.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Apr 2012 21:05

johneeG wrote:

As I understand, the only thing that is true of the Pakis is that they care for only themselves. Everything else is pretensions. So, if and when, they see that joining India is the only way to keep themselves in power, they will do so in a blink of an eye.

The oligarchy and feudals who have been power for long in Pak may bargain for such a merger with some conditions that will perpetuate their hold on power.

The main reason for merger may be that the descend of pakis into chaos becomes unmanageable. It becomes unmanageable because their maibaaps are not able to piggyback them.

Pakistan was setup to first build and then set the foundation for its kind of people. Then they will expand everywhere using this base and get more land by conquer and by their gazi. Then they will control other regions and other countries. This is what we need to know how they think about their country and influence in the rest of the world. They have sold this vision to China and also to many people in the west including USA.

The purpose of connecting with India is for the same reason. One is to expand and also to survive and then expand the base. The memory of their nation is of paranoia and survival and make their fort strong. Now thay want to expand.

arun · Post by **arun** » 24 Apr 2012 21:14

The Bury Park locality of Luton where those arrested are reported to have lived is infested with Mohammaddens of Pakistani origin and so I expect that a connection to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan will emerge to this aborted act of terrorism sooner rather than later:

1:01pm, Tue 24 Apr 2012

Luton terror suspects being questioned

Anti terrorist officers from Scotland Yard took part in raids on addresses in Luton early this morning.

All the raids were on houses in and around the Bury Park area of the town.

With the Olympic Games in London just weeks away, the five men were arrested on suspicion that they were planning acts of terrorism ..............

ITV News

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Apr 2012 21:31

johneeG wrote: My point or hypothesis is that when paki oligarchy(army, mullah, and feudals) have no other option of saving their nationhood and their power, they will look towards India. As you have said, when rivalry with India ends, the very basis of paki nationhood ends.

So, the next step would be to officially merge into India while taking care to keep conditions that protect their position, privileges and demographic size.

Why would they look to India? They can survive on their own. It ain't gonna happen. Pakistan is not one country. It is a collection of Sindhis, Pakjabis, Baluchis and Pashtuns who have been taught that they need to stick together or India will swallow them and snuff out Islam. They need to be separate from India to protect Islam.

How will kafir India become safe enough to protect Islam? Maybe some Pakis can be convinced, but not all. Only some might want to join India. The rest would remain terrorists.

I think too many people on BRF, including you tend to treat Pakistan as one united country. The only unity is hatred for Hindu India. That may not be 100% but that is the only thing that has been used to unite them. No hatred. No unity.

How can a divided country behave like a united whole and make a united decision to join India when the unity based on staying separate? Only if India converts en masse to Islam. or better still all Hindus voluntarily become slaves or concubines. Do you seriously believe that all Pakis will be united in wanting to join India. No way.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 24 Apr 2012 21:33

Acharya wrote:
johneeG wrote:

As I understand, the only thing that is true of the Pakis is that they care for only themselves. Everything else is pretensions. So, if and when, they see that joining India is the only way to keep themselves in power, they will do so in a blink of an eye.

The oligarchy and feudals who have been power for long in Pak may bargain for such a merger with some conditions that will perpetuate their hold on power.

The main reason for merger may be that the descend of pakis into chaos becomes unmanageable. It becomes unmanageable because their maibaaps are not able to piggyback them.
Pakistan was setup to first build and then set the foundation for its kind of people. Then they will expand everywhere using this base and get more land by conquer and by their gazi. Then they will control other regions and other countries. This is what we need to know how they think about their country and influence in the rest of the world. They have sold this vision to China and also to many people in the west including USA.

The purpose of connecting with India is for the same reason. One is to expand and also to survive and then expand the base. The memory of their nation is of paranoia and survival and make their fort strong. Now thay want to expand.

I think I am unable to explain my theory properly. I understand it is a weird theory.

Anyway, I'll try to explain it.
Pakis have already cleansed the parts under their control of all yindoo presence. BDs have also done the same. So, saturation has been attained. Lack of yindoos is forcing intra-islamic fight within paki society.

Paki nation always depended on the crumbs thrown by the west. The rivalry with India demanded that pakis keep a pretense of equality with India. If and when pakis become irrelevant to India, the paki nationhood loses its Raison de taire.

So, pakis are funded to keep India locked up in a tussle with pakis. If pakis are unable to lock India, they will not be funded. But India is rising. This means, the cost of funding pakis has gone up. This proves more expensive when there is economic downturn. If funds of Pakis are cut, then they cannot keep the pretense of equality with India. If they cannot keep up that pretense, the very nationhood of pakis comes into question. You see, the paki nation is locked in vicious circle.

Now add to it, the growing radicalization of paki society. This radicalization is forcing an intra-islamic fight. They need to infuse some alternate targets into their system. They can do so, in two ways:
a) increase the demography of kaffirs in their nation.
b) divert the radicalized energy towards a nation that has lots of kaffirs.

The pakis have tried the option b through out their history. But, the option is not paying any great dividends anymore because the number of radicalized entities is in much greater proportion than the targets.

The powers within Paki society are losing their grip on their society and their position is being threatened. New warlords are on the rise. The nation is unable to even keep a pretense of a nationhood.

The only scenario for such nation is secession of various parts. In this scenario, would the paki oligarchy think of joining India to save their power and also their grip on paki society? I think they will.

From Indian side, IMHO, the ruling powers have always tried to save the pakis. But the pakis have forced them to take some actions. So, if pakis make an offer of undoing partition, then the ruling powers(that includes intelligentsia and media) will lap up the idea. The secular parties will love the option of greater vote banks. It will be sold to Indians as the triumph of secularism over Islam.

The points that you describe are not contradictory to what I am saying. Pakis have already internalised the lands that are now Pak and BD. Now, the next land target is India. The only difference is that I am saying they can use this taqqiyya method instead of ghazi method.

Anyway, I think the idea is still a bit premature. So, I'll keep quiet.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Apr 2012 21:38

johneeG wrote:
The powers within Paki society are losing their grip on their society and their position is being threatened. New warlords are on the rise. The nation is unable to even keep a pretense of a nationhood.

The only scenario for such nation is secession of various parts. In this scenario, would the paki oligarchy think of joining India to save their power and also their grip on paki society? I think they will.

If the oligarchy join India the remaining 200 gadzillion jihadis will put their danda up India's backside. Why would they want to do what the oligarchy are doing to save their own asses?

Secession is more likely, but I don't think that will happen either. Pakistan will chug along running on aid and staying united until USA fails

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Apr 2012 21:51

johneeG wrote:
The points that you describe are not contradictory to what I am saying. Pakis have already internalised the lands that are now Pak and BD. Now, the next land target is India. The only difference is that I am saying they can use this taqqiyya method instead of ghazi method.

Anyway, I think the idea is still a bit premature. So, I'll keep quiet.

What you say is correct and I agree. What I am trying to say is that this narrative of Pakistan is supported by its 3.5 friends aginst India and Indian elite is not aware of this.
India can directly destroy this narrative without even going to war with them. Indian media, Indian people awareness (education) and Indian diplomacy can stop and rollback Pakistan and its ideology. That is what I was trying to convey.

Whs is sustaining the propagnda of Pak ideology. It is only the west and specifically UK and US

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Apr 2012 21:57

johneeG wrote: So, if pakis make an offer of undoing partition, then the ruling powers(that includes intelligentsia and media) will lap up the idea. The secular parties will love the option of greater vote banks. It will be sold to Indians as the triumph of secularism over Islam.

I am not so sure about this Indian secularism using this. You are putting too many ideas into the Indian political system and any new population is not a small simple thing. Just keep this any new population addition seperate since this is not going to happen. Western nations have lot of investment in that project.
This concept of Indian secularism will not sustain and the currect fake version will disappear.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 24 Apr 2012 23:46

Pakistan on the Brink by Ahmed Rashid: review

Among the myriad problems are the corrupt and rundown bureaucracy, judiciary and police force and an elite that “lacks all sense of responsibility towards the public, refuses to pay taxes and is immeasurably corrupt”. There is no drinking water for a third of the population, no electricity for up to 16 hours a day and half the school-age children do not go to school, meaning “young men face a future of little promise and are ready to sign on to jihad”.

The judiciary is a “broken instrument incapable of handing down judgments to the real criminals” and retired intelligence officers spread conspiracy theories and blame America on a plethora of high-octane chat shows.

Pakistan is not much better, having sought bail-outs from the IMF 11 times since 1988 and completed just one of their programmes (under General Pervez Musharraf in 2001) and remaining dependent on $4.8 billion (£3 bn) in foreign assistance. Debt servicing and defence take up 60 per cent of the Pakistani budget and growth was just 2.6 per cent last year, compared with around 7 per cent next door in India.

Nevertheless, if Pakistan follows its present chosen path – a “paranoid insecure” state which uses “extremists and diplomatic blackmail” – it will, he warns, “lose everything in Afghanistan”.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Apr 2012 00:00

Jhujar wrote:http://dawn.com/2012/04/23/will-their-s ... in-kargil/
Will their sun rise in Kargil?

Once a serene paradise for tourists, deprivation and doom now prevails in the area. Everyone, regardless of their economic and social background is now forced to regret their accession to the State of Pakistan in 1948, for reasons that we all know.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Apr 2012 00:29

In search of purity...
Pakistan: Sectarianism And Savage Campaign – Analysis

“…Now jihad against the Shia-Hazara has become our duty. We will rest only after hoisting the flag of true Islam on the land of the pure – Pakistan.” — Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ) warning letter to the Shia-Hazaras (June 2011)

Anti-Shia extremist groups and Sunni terrorist formations such as the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) share their larger goals of making “Pakistan a graveyard for the Shias” and “exterminating the community from Pakistan by 2012,” in the words of a June 2011 LeJ pamphlet. LeJ, the breakaway faction of the Sipah–e-Sahaba Pakistan (SSP), in June 2011, distributed pamphlets calling Shias “wajib-ul-qatl” (obligatory to be killed), and also issued an open letter against the Hazara-Shia community in Quetta. The letter of the Balochistan Unit of the outfit read,

All Shias are wajib-ul-qatl. We will rid Pakistan of the unclean race. The real meaning of Pakistan is pure land and Shias have no right to live here. We have the fatwa (religious edict) and signatures of the ulama (religious scholar) in which the Shias have been declared kaafir [infidel]. Just as our fighters have waged a successful jihad against the Shia-Hazaras in Afghanistan, our mission [in Pakistan] is the abolition of this impure sect, the Shias and the Shia-Hazaras, from every city, every village, every nook and corner of Pakistan…

partha · Post by **partha** » 25 Apr 2012 01:06

Jarita wrote:This is really terrible

http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.p ... i-of-Sindh

Rinkle Kumari – the New Marvi of Sindh
Marvi Sirmed
Originally published in The Friday Times in its April 13-19, 2012 issue
http://marvisirmed.com/2012/04/18/ri...arvi-of-sindh/

This is really sad, heart wrenching. This episode clearly shows how much the "independent" judiciary of Pakistan has become radicalized. Our leftist intellectuals and human rights activists who show concern to Palestine people are silent. Not a word in press. Not even a statement for the sake of statement. Our media stars go to Islamabad and conduct shows by inviting Paki elite but actually they should be covering events like these, Balochistan, GB genocide.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 25 Apr 2012 01:48

johneeG wrote:
Now add to it, the growing radicalization of paki society. This radicalization is forcing an intra-islamic fight. They need to infuse some alternate targets into their system. They can do so, in two ways:
a) increase the demography of kaffirs in their nation.
b) divert the radicalized energy towards a nation that has lots of kaffirs.

The pakis have tried the option b through out their history. But, the option is not paying any great dividends anymore because the number of radicalized entities is in much greater proportion than the targets.

The powers within Paki society are losing their grip on their society and their position is being threatened. New warlords are on the rise. The nation is unable to even keep a pretense of a nationhood.

The only scenario for such nation is secession of various parts. In this scenario, would the paki oligarchy think of joining India to save their power and also their grip on paki society? I think they will.

From Indian side, IMHO, the ruling powers have always tried to save the pakis. But the pakis have forced them to take some actions. So, if pakis make an offer of undoing partition, then the ruling powers(that includes intelligentsia and media) will lap up the idea. The secular parties will love the option of greater vote banks. It will be sold to Indians as the triumph of secularism over Islam.

The points that you describe are not contradictory to what I am saying. Pakis have already internalised the lands that are now Pak and BD. Now, the next land target is India. The only difference is that I am saying they can use this taqqiyya method instead of ghazi method.

Anyway, I think the idea is still a bit premature. So, I'll keep quiet.

JohneeG sir,

Let me take a different view and assume that your hypothesis does comes true. Then what you are trying to convey is the fear that it will be a bad thing, which basically mean that rest of 1.2 Billion Indians will not be able to handle 200 million Ghazis and succumb to their ideology or force. Our Political and intellectual class will betray us and India will become another Pakistan. If I understand your argument correctly then this is what I feel you are trying to convey.

I agree here to Shiv sir's point that you are making the assumption that the 200 Million Ghazis are all United and will be one block which is not true.

Even if I assume that this is true, then also I see two flaws in your argument which I would like to point out.

First, if we are giving pakistan the benefit of doubt that all pakis are united against India then the same logic should be applied to India as well to make apples vs apples comparison. In case of apple vs apple comparison also if you feel that Ghazis will win, then I think we need to move the discussion to the "sense of Inferiority" dhaga on GDF and we can talk more out there.

Once point one is out of the way, then lets come to point two which is if Pakis join India then I think it will be a good thing unless you dont agree to the idea of greater India. We have Paki problem right now coz if we take any action, it becomes international action where nukes may get involved. If they themselves join the Indian union, all the troubles will become internal matters of India and Nukes will not be an option. It will turn into an insurgency problem at max and given the track record of India in handling insurgency I am fairly confident that we will be able to handle even that. Plus we need to look at the recruitment base of foot soldiers of paki terror factory. The bulk of the foot soldiers come from lower classes who have no hope for anything else. If they are provided better options to earn a decent livelihood I bet that they wont be in such a hurry to meet their 72 virgins. Its is not the people who are problem, it is the combined grip of Army plus mullahs spewing venom of hatred and brainwashing people which is the main problem. Once Pakis get integrated we have much better chance of arresting that influence and reverse the social engineering which is in progress since Ayub khan's time.

With the pak army no longer in question, we have better chance to crush the hate propagators like Zahil Hamid and Hafeez Saeed. Given the wonderful results we are seeing in Kashmir when the external help is reduced, I think we can do the same on Paki lands as well. India has enough clout to cut off external help from rational players, only the irrational players like pakistan that we have issues to cut off terror aid.

I do not say it will be a walk in a park and we wont face challenges, all I am saying is that if we ever wanna get that land back and people reintegrated to Indian core then it will be easier to do the surgery if they are part of India than to do it when they are not part of India. We would be in a position to better control the flow of money, arms and ideology if that land is under direct Indian control. Once ideology and external support is removed/reduced, things start becoming political. And political problems are the problems are politicians are best at resolving.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 25 Apr 2012 01:54

Our media stars go to Islamabad and conduct shows by inviting Paki elite but actually they should be covering events like these, Balochistan, GB genocide.

No... you don't realize it's realpolitik which counts. This Dharmic business of standing by what is right is for fools.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Apr 2012 04:14

The greatest obstacle to Pakis trying to join the Indian Union in any form - is actually the ruling interests of India, especially the non-Muslim component of the north-Indian power elite. The excessive outpouring of aman-ki-asha type of p-secism is all about hiding a deep seated hatred of the "Muslim", an even greater hatred of Paki's as a whole - and an agonized fear at any prospect of living next to a large Paki contingent without the IA or the border providing the psychological protection.

It is India's predominant and the loudest political voice - a pretended p-secism - that will do everything possible to preserve Pakistan as a separate entity, so that the prospect of ex-Pakistan joining up as part of India - does not arise.

As to Paki centrifugal forces - none of the component parts could ever stay independent for long. For a very simple reason - they were never sustainable even in historical periods on economic terms, and to the extent that they could defend themselves against larger Indian plains empires or the Gulf based empires. They were always at the crossroads of trans-Asian trade flow, but not productive centres themselves.

When Sindhu-Saraswati dried up, the "economic strategic depth" was provided by the Gangetic valley and the southern maritime arc. Even here, latest indications are that original spread of the SSC started farther from the east in the heartland of India rather than its western fringes. So that when temporary post-glacial climate bounty dried up - Indians retreated with their knowledge and tech from the western fringe back to their centre, and survived to grow back again. While the west succumbed to the Gulf marauders.

Lacking that inherent regenerative capacity - the western arc of the Indian plains leading to the Iranian-Gandhar badlands can never sustain itself as independent nations. They will have to acknowledge and return to the Indian heartland to survive. The heartland again has layers of confusion. So the elements in north Indian power centres that have compromised and overlapped with ideologies or institutions from the west of India will need to go simultaneously. Only such a "centre" confident in its Indian and not "foreign" identities - will be able to provide the unwavering rock on which ex-Pakistanis can build a future.

As long as the confusion remains - that there might be something worthwhile salvageable in their institutional framework and theology, Pakis and their common theological roots that influence both their faith-brethren within India and the non-faith power elite - there is nothing sharply contrasting and solid in the ideological basis of India - that Pakis can substitute for and adopt.

What Pakis are looking for is a concrete replacement for what they have - equally certain, reassuring and comforting in its apparent strength, but something completely different. The Pakis are panicking because that iron band of state and society is loosening. They need something that will hold them, rule them, ruthlessly, with iron bands of love.

At the moment they do not see it in our ruling circles, who profess an equal and ardent love, regards, admiration or subtle preference for their theology. This puts the Pakis in confusion too - maybe, just maybe - if even the yeevil yindu leadership also find their theological framework so admirable and pure and good - maybe, just maybe there is still hope? Maybe the ex-ISI ex-TSPA slimeballs are not entirely BS'ing?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 25 Apr 2012 04:38

So, if I understand, northie elite are doing taqiya to keep pakis believing in their future as pakis so that they won't want to be Indian?

sukhish · Post by **sukhish** » 25 Apr 2012 05:01

very interesting analysis by brahaspati.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 25 Apr 2012 05:16

^^^ B-ji,

I thought the Aman-ki-tamasha, WKKism etc was a part of DIE elite trying to pull a Gandhi-2.0 under the spell of Gungadeenitis, i.e. Gora Admi's influence.

Politically, deep seated hatred of "muslims" cannot manifest due to their power as a united vote-bank.

I am not trying to challenge you but I am just wondering if you have any information/data to show these things on the ground

(i am asking some advanced kshama along with the question

)

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Apr 2012 05:20

The relationship TSP is looking for is similar to USA & Mexico.

Lots of aid, lots of permanent visas, lots of safe haven and little political interference. Esp. now that most of Europe and USA are hostile to them and their kind.

The merger thinking is never going to happen.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 Apr 2012 06:00

Poaq-Naak or Noak Poaq, one and the same Joke.
http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-north-k ... 07324.html
Exclusive: North Korea's nuclear test ready "soon"

BEIJING (Reuters) - North Korea has almost completed preparations for a third nuclear test, a senior source with close ties to Pyongyang and Beijing said, an act that would draw further international condemnation following a failed rocket launch.The isolated and impoverished state sacrificed the chance of closer ties with the United States when it launched the long-range rocket .on April 13 and was censured by the U.N. Security Council, which includes the North's sole major ally, China.Critics say the rocket launch was aimed at honing the North's ability to develop an intercontinental ballistic missile capable of hitting the United States, a move that would dramatically increase its military and diplomatic heft.ow the North appears to be about to carry out a third nuclear test after two in 2006 and 2009."Soon. Preparations are almost complete," the source told Reuters when asked whether North Korea was planning to conduct a nuclear test.This is the first time a senior official has confirmed the planned test and the source has correctly predicted events in the past, telling Reuters about the 2006 test days before it happened.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Apr 2012 06:12

Some new info on the Lahore blast
http://www.sananews.net/english/bomb-bl ... ree-lives/

the killed include one police cop and two kullis.

the blast was occurred when the Awam Express was ready to leave

The bomb was kept in a black bad and was exploded with a huge explosion.

proofs of suicide attack have not been founded.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 25 Apr 2012 06:54

In short supply: The Britain-Pakistan jihadist trade flow

Joseph · Post by **Joseph** » 25 Apr 2012 07:15

johneeG wrote: As I understand, the only thing that is true of the Pakis is that they care for only themselves. Everything else is pretensions. So, if and when, they see that joining India is the only way to keep themselves in power, they will do so in a blink of an eye.

The oligarchy and feudals who have been power for long in Pak may bargain for such a merger with some conditions that will perpetuate their hold on power.

The main reason for merger may be that the descend of pakis into chaos becomes unmanageable. It becomes unmanageable because their maibaaps are not able to piggyback them.

The Powers (oligarchy, feudals, RAPES etc) in Pakistan would be trying to merge (sell) something
that is in much worse condition than what was gifted to them decades ago.

Why should they get any reward for what they and their forefathers have mismanaged?

Also, what does perpetuate their hold on power mean?

They have been a large part of the problem in making Pakistan what it currently is.

It is hard to imagine that they could be part of the solution.

johneeG wrote: The oligarchy and feudals who have been power for long in Pak may bargain for such
a merger with some conditions that will perpetuate their hold on power.

The main reason for merger may be that the descend of pakis into chaos becomes
unmanageable. It becomes unmanageable because their maibaaps are not able to piggyback them.

If what they are selling is filled with chaos and is unmanageable, the worth - value
would be very low and they wouldn't be able to dictate in the way of conditions
of the Sale.

Still, it is doubtful that the oligarchy, feudals, RAPES etc would grovel to Inida in the
way that you are suggesting.

Far easier for their H&D to take their wealth and move rather than stay in Pakistan
for an unknown future.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 25 Apr 2012 07:44

Before the Q of whether Pakis will want to/can join India, we should ask the Indian reaction of how a proposed merger between BD and India would fare in Indian public opinion. IMO, it would be overwhelmingly negative (except perhaps in WB which has always seemed to have a death wish post the direct action day massacres).

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 25 Apr 2012 08:04

Hari Seldon wrote:Before the Q of whether Pakis will want to/can join India, we should ask the Indian reaction of how a proposed merger between BD and India would fare in Indian public opinion. IMO, it would be overwhelmingly negative (except perhaps in WB which has always seemed to have a death wish post the direct action day massacres).

Forget about WB. Would the rest of India want to have Bengali as national language and transfer the capital from Delhi back to Calcutta?
Gautam

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 25 Apr 2012 08:09

^^Isn't Bengali already one of the ~25 national languages?

arun · Post by **arun** » 25 Apr 2012 08:24

X Posted from the Pakistan Arms Sales, Ops, Doctrine etc, thread.

The Punjabi Sunni Mohammadden uniformed Jihadis of the Army of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan appear to have kept the violence that has engulfed Pakistan away from its recruiting home ground.

There has been no terrorist incident in Pakistan occupied Punjab for 15 months that to with the last incident targeting Shia Mohammaddens who do not form the recruiting backbone of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Armed Forces.

Coincidence or a consequence of a deal where by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Army has permitted its jihadi assets free run of the rest of Pakistan in return for keeping out of Pakistan occupied Punjab?

Terror strikes Lahore after 15 months

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Apr 2012 08:39

Some of you guys may be offended by reading this, but I say it nevertheless. It appears that Pakistan does have some culture. I'll admit that. But it is not "Pakistani culture". There is no such thing as "Pakistani culture" other than terrorism and excuses for murder in the name of Islam. That is Pakistani culture, but then again you can't call that "culture".

However individual provinces of Pakistan have their unique culture which I believe is worth knowing about because it gives a better insight into alliances and tensions within Shitistan. I cannot claim to be the expert here - but here are some basic impressions I have gained:

Sindh: Sindh has been under islamic rule for the longest time. But since it occupies a place next to the sea and at the mouth of the Indus the people of Sindh have had a mercantile culture for centuries and Sindh has played host to various nationalities and religions. Of all Pakistan's provinces I think Sindh had, and still has the largest proportion of Hindus. Sindh had been ruled for centuries by a Baluchi clan and there are a lot of Baluchis in Sindh. Before Sindhi kings developed canals fro irrigation Sindh itself was a desert like Baluchistan (It's going back to that now that Pakjab is damming the water). So agriculture is another occupation in Sindh.

I might be wrong here but Sufi traditions blended in well with the feudal traditions of Sindh. Feudalism thrived as gifts of land were made to leaders who served as vassals. Sufism served as a balm for the people in feudal lands and did nothing to upset the power of feudatory lords. And because Sufi tradition requires a "guru" and the work is passed on from father to son, it was convenient for Sufi pirs to gain power and influence over centuries and become feudal lords themselves. . I think Prime Minister Yousuf Raza "Boob squeezer" Gilani belongs to one such Sufi Pir/Feudal family.

Sufism has, over the centuries built shrines where music and mysticism serve as a kind of "normal" social outlets for people in Sindh as opposed to the dry Arab Islam that we wish to see in Pakistan. Sufism also offered a milder face of islam and may have taken on some converts without prior rape of mother and beheading of father

Pakjab - Pakistani Punjab. Southern Pakjab was dominated by Islamic kings very early on like Sindh. Northern Pakjab, with Indian Punjab in the east held out longer. Punjab itself has a long history where various kings and civilzations have manged to control varying amounts of territiry on either side of the Indus and its tributaries which have served as a formidable geographic barrier. They were primarily Buddhists and Buddhism itself was on the decline by the time Mahmud of Ghazni came. Among the people of Punjab - it appears that one set of people were converted perhaps by force. Sufism is not big in Pakjab as far as I can tell. Sikhism itself arose under an Islamic yoke as a religion that retained Dharma but perhaps sough to coexist. That fact that islam would not coexist made Sikhism militant - a prime example of why maintenance of dharma needs a willingness to fight for it. A lot of ancient Buddhist relics in Pakjab have been destroyed over the centuries - representing the worst of Islam.

But even in Pakjab it is the South, Southern Pakistani Punjab that is seeing the rise of Wahhabandism. Hindus and Sikhs were the first to take a hit. But Shias, Ahmedis and Sufis are also receiving the attention of dry Arab islam that tolerates no deviation from a book that was dictated to Mohammad but written down by someone else.

Punjabi culture is one of ebullience, hospitality and bluster, and it is the islamic, Pakjabi version of Punjabi culture that has been hyped as "Pakistani culture". Pakistan wealth is concentrated in Pakjab and the land is fertile from several dams including the Sukkur barrage and the Tarbela dam

NWFP Khyber Pahtunkhwa: Just line Baluchis share some history with Sindh, the people of Khyber Paktunkhwa hare connected up with Pakjab by history. The people in these areas have been on the path of all invaders be they Greeks, Scythians, Kushans, Arabs, Turks or Persians. The difference is geography. NWFP is harsh, cold mountainous. Pakjab is settled, wet, fertile. India was always on the "other side" of Pakjab - across the fiver rivers. The Paki side was usually exchanging hands. These areas were never cultural reservoirs. NWFP survived on tribal codes to which Islamic codes were added. Islam did not kill off the poetry and music of these tribals, and it only helped perpetuate their homosexual practices. During the British period Pakjab and NWF contributed loyal men to the British indian army. That loyalty was bought by telling them that they were great martial people. In any case they had little else in their culture and hardly contributed to the culture of India as marked by northern, eastern and southern Indians.

It is a quirk of this military history that made Pakjab dominate Pakistan, with the Pakistani army being almost entirely composed of Pakjabis (about 60%) and Pashtuns (about 30% IIRC).

So Pakistan can be seen as two historic units. Sindh-Baluchistan as one, and NWFP-Pakjab as the other. The NWFP-Pakjab were always dependent on India in the east and Persia/wst Asia in the west. They were either attacking or defending while serving as a link between ancient India and Iraq, iran, Turkey and Souther Europe.

Any errors are mine. But i am building a template for seeing what can be expeced out of the lands that consitute Pakistan. Will cross post in another thread for completeion.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 25 Apr 2012 08:46

lakshmikanth wrote:^^^ B-ji,

I thought the Aman-ki-tamasha, WKKism etc was a part of DIE elite trying to pull a Gandhi-2.0 under the spell of Gungadeenitis, i.e. Gora Admi's influence.

Politically, deep seated hatred of "muslims" cannot manifest due to their power as a united vote-bank.

I am not trying to challenge you but I am just wondering if you have any information/data to show these things on the ground (i am asking some advanced kshama along with the question )

No need for advanced kshama! You should challenge my ideas and I welcome it. Challenging people rather than their ideas, quickly degenerates to waste of goodwill and time.

For Aman-ki-tamasha etc as Gandhi-2.0 :

No. Think carefully about the behaviour of the triumvirate from which of course the pater familias was finally excluded. On the partition thread - we have had various sources of information about their willingness to separate out the wayward bro - way before 1947. In fact one of the triumvir had begun to make approving noises before his supposedly more resistant companion [who is now blamed for having eagerly started it all - but the wily other simply managed to have less incriminating statements or have the good fortune of hagiographers doing his erasing work for him]. The most resistant of the triumvir - happen to have manuvrata exactly at the point when his assent or dissent could have mattered. Maybe if he dissented he would have been assassinated earlier - so he gained roughly a year and half of life by his maunavrata.

But - see - ultimately they did agree to "keep out". They wanted to keep the more politically mobilized muslim territorial concentrations "out". They knew that keeping them in would have changed the dynamics of their centre-of-their-world : UP. Remember that the strongest flare up by uncleji was when the corridor through GV was demanded. The two ends were good riddance - troublesome, with even the non-Muslim components rebellious. One side's Muslims always inviting their famished brethren from the deserts as part of betrayal to Delhi - while the other side had a penchant for p-secism to form united fronts against Delhi. Both sides non-Muslims had been thorns in the sides of the "good" british who were gifting power after all - and would likely to be rebellious well into the future. Neither side's - Hindu-Sikh - seem to give a damn for dynastic bootlicking. How prescient they must have been - see how didi behaves!

The ruling elite wants controlled Muslim demographics and immigration - when immigration can "bind" immigrants to dynastic vote base. But to keep that profitable, you cannot allow it on a massive scale. Neither can you lose that profitability by making immigration irrelevant - in a single unified country.

If you follow through every step taken since 1946 - the elite's primary concern has been to keep "out" large territorially contiguous muslim populations whenever feasible without structurally weakening the contiguity of the rashtra. 1948 J&K, 65-66, 71, and so on. Only in 1984 - IG moved against this trend, and paid the price for Pokhran+Siachen [gold was just the cover : for people get excited by the hand of the assassin when his head remains hidden].

It will be OT here : but carry out this test: ask any avid shouter from any WKK, AKT brigade as to you have been inspired by his/her points and you do want to see Pakistan dissolving into the Indian union - as long lost brothers reunited. Further to promote this bonding it is Indians who must extend their hand - that is - Pakistanis should be brought into India and freely settled on Indian lands and farms and cities in large communities - that will accelerate the integration.

Just note the reaction. A panicked outburst will follow. India is not imperialist! cannot be imperialist! oh no dont say that! please! Pakistanis must have their own country as theya re having now! we onlee want peace and friendship! you don;t want all thos jihadis coming into India! please sir!

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 25 Apr 2012 08:53

shiv wrote:I have been trying to inform myself about the history of the Panchanada (Punjab) area. It strikes me that the Mussalmans of Punjab have never been rulers, they have always been ruled. At best they make loyal servants. They are more often traitors and collaborators. Please look up the history of Punjab - of which accounts exist from the days of the Mahabharata. "Punjabi Mussalman rule" has existed since 1947 onlee. The primary driver for that was the pre-existence of a lot of Pakjabis in the Paki army at independence with white masters. they vowed to continue their ass licking of white masters in exchange for perennial aid from the west. The alliance between "Pakistan" and the US is hardly an alliance between nation states. It is an alliance between the Paki army, dominated by the Punjabi Mussalman and the US. I think a lot of Indians mistake Sikh valor as Punjabi valor. Sikh valor needed leadership brains. Punjabi mussalmans have always been vassals, not leaders. You can call this stereotyoing if you like but I will myself begin to bring down those stereotypes if better information becomes available.

Very correct. Many years ago I had posted the same idea.

When I read history of this area and the increase in Muaslim population in Punjab, it struck me that they have never been rulers, never produced anything even close to being called a separate and proud history, or historical characters, or leaders, or anything notable. The Pakjabi M is basically an inheritor of no history of achievement in any field. I say this with compassion, because a lot of dirt poor people were converted by force by the neighboring Pathaans. They suffered through Turkic invasions just as Hindus/Sikhs did.

The situation is so bad that while they have invented a lot of mythis, their creativity in inventing and lying could not produce a *SINGLE* Punjabi Muassalmain to name thier missiles, ships, tanks, or anything.

This makes the British perfidy especially galling. They provided the missing link and converted this looser quaom to be rulers of 1/3 of India, a nuclear power, and a thorn on India's side. This is either a remarkable feat of British Genius, or due to the existence of an especially foolish nation called India.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 25 Apr 2012 08:55

http://tribune.com.pk/story/369094/bhoj ... ng-booked/

In a bizarre chain of events following the Bhoja Air crash, the chairman of the Capital Development Authority (CDA) flew to China hours after being booked by the Capital police

Farkhand Iqbal – who spearheaded the rescue operation – was booked after the authorities found that he had taken the black box and CVR of the crashed plane to his house and planned to present them to the investigation team during a press conference

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 25 Apr 2012 09:11

Anujan wrote:http://tribune.com.pk/story/369094/bhoj ... ng-booked/

In a bizarre chain of events following the Bhoja Air crash, the chairman of the Capital Development Authority (CDA) flew to China hours after being booked by the Capital police

Farkhand Iqbal – who spearheaded the rescue operation – was booked after the authorities found that he had taken the black box and CVR of the crashed plane to his house and planned to present them to the investigation team during a press conference

Isn't that Standard Operating Procedure in TSP - hose down the crime scene and clear it of all incriminating evidence!