Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29 March 2012

[A_Gupta]

Draining Attabad Lake.
http://tribune.com.pk/story/350531/drai ... the-water/

[abhishek_sharma]

Bashir is new Pakistan envoy, says Singh's visit top priority

Bashir, who had famously labeled India's dossier on 26/11 accused and Lashkar-e-Taiba chief Hafiz Saeed as "a piece of literature" in 2010, adopted a less dismissive stance on the issue.

On talks table: visa for seniors on arrival

Shahbaz Sharif, PC to attend Attari check post opening

India likely to give updated Hafiz dossier

[A_Gupta]

An interesting point of view:
http://pamirtimes.net/2012/04/05/our-re ... -about-gb/

What did we lose after losing East Pakistan? Those who are pushing this country deep into a quagmire in the name of Islam still have no idea about how grave that loss was. The leadership of East Pakistan would never have let Pakistan be embroiled in the Afghan war. The Kashmir problem would possibly have been solved. Just like India, Pakistan would be on the road to rapid development. We would be standing with dignity in the comity of nations. Our society would have been free from the scourge of violence. No OBL would have been ensconced safely in our quarters and no Hafiz Saeed would have had the gall to support foreign terrorists. We have seen all this because we let East Pakistan go. And what is happening in G{ilgit}B{altistan} now, if I allude even perfunctorily to it, it would scare the daylights out of most.

[shiv]

Why Indian intelligence doesn't work too well in Pakistan

Hmmm - this would require treatment in an Intensive Care Unit

Quotes:

• India has the capability to hit the terror group in Pakistan, but the government doesn't allow such covert actions.
• But sources in the R&AW , India's external agency, say India lacks both political will and the capability to carry out a hit inside Pakistan.
• We do not have the mandate to do what Mossad does.
• Our charter does not include the job of getting (or assassinating) people from other countries.
• over the past two decades the agency has even lost some of its capability for covert operations abroad. "During the 1980s, the agency used to have two Counter Intelligence Teams (CITs) in Pakistan: one targeting the country and the other targeting Khalistani militant infrastructure. However, during Prime Minister I K Gujral's time, both these teams were dismantled and the extensive human intelligence network in Pakistan was scaled down,
• the political class here believes that covert operations spoil bilateral relations,
• "It takes a great deal of money and time to cultivate sources in foreign soil. We don't have either in plenty, unlike countries in the West.
• most intelligence officers believe that they need better equipment for surveillance as well as the go-ahead for covert tactics.

[ramana]

The avalanche might have resulted in Broken arrow. No wonder US is rushing a team and SPD is also there.

Wonder if it was an ADM version lost in the avalanche.

[Anujan]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 616780.cms

Pakistan may exert pressure on India for duty-free access to its textiles and garments markets when the two commerce ministers meet later this week

[sum]

MKB is back. TSP must be really pleased that such great souls are present who fall the smallest of taqqiayya:

Shift in Pak attitude toward India

One striking feature of the shift in the Pakistani attitude toward India in the recent years is the ‘bipartisan consensus’ in that country over the imperative need for improving relations with India. The statement by the former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif welcoming President Asif Zardari’s visit to India on Sunday underscores this amazing political reality. Sharif called the visit “a step in the right direction.” My mind went back to a not-too-distant past when the two mainstream political parties were locked in a zero-sum game over Pakistan’s relations with India. How much the India-Pakistan narrative has changed!
The Pakistani discourse will increasingly make the hardliners in our country look moronic. I took part in a TV programme on the talks in Delhi on Sunday, and it turned out to be a comical experience. I wouldn’t be allowed to speak lest I probably rubbished what passes for informed discourse in our country regarding relations with Pakistan. The bewilderment is understandable — like when the train pulled out of the station and you’re left behind on the platform staring at its rear end. Watch the u-tube - Part 1 and Part 2.

The delusion these guys live in is amazing!!!

[jrjrao]

A good joke by the earth-e-shaster, at the expense of the very same NLI whose dead bodies Musharraf and the Paki army refused to even acknowledge, much less take back.

Pak Army does not leave their martyrs
http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=149659

Though no one can predict how long it would take to reach the snow covered camp because of the difficult terrain and inhospitable weather conditions but one thing is for certain that Pakistani army does not leave its Martyrs abandoned in any situation and every officer and jawan is given due respect and treated as integral part of the force.

[ramana]

^^^ Tall tales by a braggart!!!

What about NLI casualties in Kargil idiot?

[Vikas]

^ Isn't that something that Baki Army has picked from their interaction with US army. "We don't leave dead behind" as long as we are being paid for it and our A$$ is not on fire.

[Altair]

The avalanche might have resulted in Broken arrow. No wonder US is rushing a team and SPD is also there.

Wonder if it was an ADM version lost in the avalanche.

Makes me wonder if the Avalanche was natural or unnatural!!

[Aditya_V]

It is unlikely so many guys are required in the base camp, I think the Kiyani Guy wanted Dus percenti to give a distraction like Nawaz Sharif did so that Musharraf could launch a Kargil, fortunately nature has put a temporary end to such plans.

[Anujan]

http://www.the-american-interest.com/ar ... piece=1246

Beyond U.S. Withdrawal: India’s Afghan Options by C Raja Mohan.

[Anujan]

http://dawn.com/2012/04/11/move-to-keep ... gy-crisis/

Riyadh is said to have offered an ‘alternative package’ to meet Islamabad’s growing energy needs in an effort to persuade it to abandon the Iran gas pipeline and electricity/oil import deals.

[ArmenT]

A good joke by the earth-e-shaster, at the expense of the very same NLI whose dead bodies Musharraf and the Paki army refused to even acknowledge, much less take back.

Pak Army does not leave their martyrs
http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=149659

Though no one can predict how long it would take to reach the snow covered camp because of the difficult terrain and inhospitable weather conditions but one thing is for certain that Pakistani army does not leave its Martyrs abandoned in any situation and every officer and jawan is given due respect and treated as integral part of the force.

^^^ Tall tales by a braggart!!!

What about NLI casualties in Kargil idiot?

Simple lahori logic saars. Technically, the NLI wasn't part of the paki army then, therefore they could be abandoned to their fate.

[Neela]

If this history that I have written is false, riddle me this

• 1. In what way is it false?
  2. How are you going to get anyone in the world to take you seriously if you dispute the above "history" and want to tell a different story?

Of course. There is one way out. Blame the current government. The next one will do better.

Shiv,
My position is clear. No doubt - babus and netas know more than we do regarding TSP. So their policy is guided by information vastly more accurate and more detailed than what we can ever imagine to have here.
But post-SeS , when the fight came out in the open and the opposition questioning MMS letting our negotiating position slip - that was when it was clear and there is apparently different groups pulling in different directions. My point is - I do not blame this government or any government . I only observe that there is a lack of consistent policy in dealing with TSP - which is probably why issues that have been there for 30 years continue to exist. Isn't that a good metric to judge success or failure?
With regards to your original post , I only wanted to point out that being aggressive some times is needed , despite what everyone else thinks.

[sum]

Pak PM's son flees abroad after SC notice over scam

Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani's son Ali Musa has left Pakistan after the Supreme Court issued him a notice in a case related to alleged irregularities in the import of a large amount of the chemical Ephedrine, commonly known as "poor man's cocaine".

Media reports said Ali Musa's move could be related to efforts by the Anti-Narcotics Force (ANF) to put his name on the Exit Control List, which has the names of people barred from travelling outside Pakistan.

Ali Musa, who was recently elected to the National Assembly or lower house of parliament, has left for South Africa and is also expected to travel to Britain, his personal secretary told The Express Tribune.

The secretary said it was a "scheduled visit" and Ali Musa was likely to return on May 2.

[Lilo]

HSBC is shutting down in Pakistan. Another day, another bank.

Dawn

An important fact is - HSBC entered Pakistan in 2007.

So ,how much is the causation to this event from each of the below?
1) decisions of RAPE poaqs preferring other channels to employ their monies - like direct investments in textile sectors of Bdesh and impending FDI into India
2) Sinking oirope and to some degree US economy - removing them as destinations for paki capital.
3) Pakis are now sucked out dry - kind of "mission accomplished" situation for HSBC in poakland

[shyamd]

^^ Don't read too much into it. it's more of a reflection that it is a withdrawal of risky markets and focus on core biz.

[shiv]

I only observe that there is a lack of consistent policy in dealing with TSP - which is probably why issues that have been there for 30 years continue to exist. Isn't that a good metric to judge success or failure?
With regards to your original post , I only wanted to point out that being aggressive some times is needed , despite what everyone else thinks.

Neela let me just do (say) something that I tend to do because my mind works that way. How can we take all the information available to us and extrapolate it backwards to get an idea of what the government may be thinking and ask if the policy is consistent or inconsistent. Is there a "point of intersection" where Gujrals actions, Vajpayee's actions and MMS's actions originate form?

All three PMs have been conciliatory towards Pakistan. All of them have hesitated to go to war except with those people who come inside Indian territory. None of them has sent Indian men into Pakistan

Gujral was PM from 1996-98
Vajpayee was PM from 1998 to 2004
MMS from 2004 till today

That covers a good decade and a half - around 25% of the time Pakistan has existed.

All these PM's have gone "that extra mile" to accommodate Pakistan. It is another matter that Pakistan, as a nation has not responded favorably to this. All these PMs have done much to "placate" Pakistan, and both Vajpayee and MMS have refused to impose war on Pakistan in response to major (visible) terrorist attacks. The "consistency" of policy has been not to punish Pakistan and not to be aggressive? Why? Is it because of weakness? Fear? "Dhoti/Panche/Mundu/veshti shivering?

Are Indian leaders scared of Pakistan? Could that be the reason? The best answer that I can come up with is that they are scared of making war. Not personally scared - they will be the first to go into nuke shelters, but they do not want to lead the armed forces and country into a war unless war is forces on us by Pakistan. The argument I have heard that "If we can't fight Pakistan, how can we fight China?" is an absurd one because fighting Pakistan does not prove that we are ready to fight China. We just don't want to fight anyone.

Pakistan knows damn well that India is not willing to make war and that is why they provoke. India seems to be behaving like "big brother" and taking blows and not doing anything. But Kashmir is not getting any closer, nor is any settlement going to be reached on any contentious issue. They will be left open forever. Pakistan is being given the choice to develop or sink, but India is not pushing either choice on Pakistan. The choice is theirs. The only thing India is pushing is "talks" and "friendship".

One thing is certain. There will never be a quick solution to the Kashmir issue. The more I look at the issue., the more I feel that the issue should never be resolved as long as Pakistan exists. And it does look like that is exactly what is happening. It should stay as a chronic sore and let the peacefully religious people live in that sore if they want. The choice of getting out is theirs, but India is not going to give away any land. The land will be here, part of India 10, 100, 500 years from now. Only the people need to figure out what they want to do while they are alive.

If a "solution" to Kashmir is what Pakistan wants, what we need is to never allow it to be solved.

[abhishek_sharma]

I only observe that there is a lack of consistent policy in dealing with TSP - which is probably why issues that have been there for 30 years continue to exist. Isn't that a good metric to judge success or failure?
With regards to your original post , I only wanted to point out that being aggressive some times is needed , despite what everyone else thinks.

+1. (So-called "chankian" theories notwithstanding).

>> If a "solution" to Kashmir is what Pakistan wants, what we need is to never allow it to be solved.

Do they want to kill Indians too? Are we allowing that ?

[Satya_anveshi]

Here is a wet thought as I experience Aman ki Ayesha jhatka /fits:

IF Pukistan agree to trade J&K (I mean the issue is TOTAL FINITO..no iffs and buts), we agree to give it free’er hand in AFG provided they don’t mess it with extreme fundamentalism like they did in the 90s. If they talk about khurasan or ghazwa-e-hind they will only get bulletwa-e-hind right between the eyes. On the day they announce J&K fixed and make a formal international announcement (voiding the UN case) …we will also recognize their favorite govt (of course sovereign Afghanistan govt) in AFG.
Benefits of this are not only obvious but extremely high for all involved except those who would like to see continued unrest and plunder in this region. Pukis make peace with us and extend their power in AFG/CAR (their soft power is nothing but extension of ours). They will get their strategic depth (if needed anymore), J&K issue solved in our favor, AFG and CAR benefits with stability, trade, market etc.
One might ask, why will pukistan agree to such a thing??….the response is that it will continue to get kicked on the eastern front, will NEVER find stability at home as J&K issue remain a thorn in their backside pushing their society to extremism, we will also ENSURE they will not find peace on the western border, and they will continue to get isolated internationally. It is for Pukis to lose it ALL or they at least have a CHANCE to recoup respectably. For India this is a matter of huge growth with stability over longer timeline or current growth which is still respectable albeit with a little risk. Which option will pukis choose?
If there are takers of such a vision in pukistan, they should call for the next Duffers of-Pukistan council meeting at Ghyari base and trigger another avalanche.

[shiv]

>> If a "solution" to Kashmir is what Pakistan wants, what we need is to never allow it to be solved.

Do they want to kill Indians too? Are we allowing that ?

Yes. Allowing it consistently. So much for lack of consistency..

Solving the Kashmir issue may or may not stop that considering that the peaceniks who do the killing existed long before Pakistan did. Stopping the killing is a different issue from solving the "Kashmir issue". The Kashmir issue is one sided. It is an issue for Pakistan. It is not an issue for India. If it stops being an issue for Pakistan, there will be no Kashmir issue. India is never going to make war to reclaim PoK.

[member_22872]

Shiv garu,
By the same back ward extrapolation in time, IG took on Pak by horns and cut it to size literally. Now we see a change in PMs the way you say, who are shying away from going to war with TSP, what changed? is it the nukes that changed the way we are approaching TSP? that means their nuke deterrent is working for them in keeping us from punishing them? or is it the fear of terrorism that we don't want to incite and loose Indian lives? either way TSP is free from it's karmic cycle, no retribution what so ever?

[abhishek_sharma]

>> Solving the Kashmir issue may or may not stop that considering that the peaceniks who do the killing existed long before Pakistan did.

Sounds like a great policy.

[shiv]

Shiv garu,
By the same back ward extrapolation in time, IG took on Pak by horns and cut it to size literally. Now we see a change in PMs the way you say, who are shying away from going to war with TSP, what changed? is it the nukes that changed the way we are approaching TSP? that means their nuke deterrent is working for them in keeping us from punishing them? or is it the fear of terrorism that we don't want to incite and loose Indian lives?

In fact what might have changed is the Islamization after 1971. Islamization took off after 1973 and by 1979 it was transformed into a new beast as the Soviets entered Afghanistan with US aid to the ISI in covert ops.

But Indira Gandhi was good at taking the bull by the horns. She took the bull by the horns in Bangladesh and won the lottery. She took the bull by the horns in Operation Blue Star and lost the game. That in fact not only led to open mutiny in the Indian army but it also allowed Pakistan to host and support the Khalistan insurgency for 10 years. By the time that was stamped out the Islamist galata in Kashmir started. She died, Pakistan survived and became stronger.

[abhishek_sharma]

>> Is there a "point of intersection" where Gujrals actions, Vajpayee's actions and MMS's actions originate form?

Of course, there is a point of intersection. But it is not sufficient to infer that they were following a consistent policy. For example, did ABV stop RAW operations in Pakistan?

And MMS would have sent a few hundred dossiers when Kargil intrusions were detected.

[shiv]

>> Solving the Kashmir issue may or may not stop that considering that the peaceniks who do the killing existed long before Pakistan did.

Sounds like a great policy.

Like everyone else I have been following this issue for decades. But no one has yet come up with a better policy. It is justifiable not to like the policy, but even by random chance something good should come up in 15 years of discussion. If it has I haven't heard it.

One of the reasons we are stuck for solutions on the forum is the same as what the Indian government faces. They are stuck for solutions too. It's not a difficult conclusion to reach after watching their action/inaction for decades, is it?

[shiv]

Of course, there is a point of intersection. But it is not sufficient to infer that they were following a consistent policy. For example, did ABV stop RAW operations in Pakistan?

Did he restart them?

[abhishek_sharma]

I don't know.

[member_22872]

That also means if islamization of pak has stopped India from taking stern action, that is their deterrent. That also means Zia's game plan is paying off. But to what point can we take this? there has to be threshold, even a cat when pushed to the wall attacks. There has to be a point when we have to say enough is enough, too bad, 26/11 wasn't enough, not sure when we wake up. I apologize for the rant.

[shiv]

That also means if islamization of pak has stopped India from taking stern action, that is their deterrent. That also means Zia's game plan is paying off. But to what point can we take this? there has to be threshold, even a cat when pushed to the wall attacks. There has to be a point when we have to say enough is enough, too bad, 26/11 wasn't enough, not sure when we wake up. I apologize for the rant.

Doesn't sound like a rant to me. Zia's game plan is paying off indeed. Some of the payoffs make me happy, in the midst of the anger. Zia was not alone in implementing his plans. He had powerful allies. Those allies also need to earn their just desserts.

[abhishek_sharma]

>> But Indira Gandhi was good at taking the bull by the horns. She took the bull by the horns in Bangladesh and won the lottery. She took the bull by the horns in Operation Blue Star and lost the game.

Yes, we need someone like her. Even in late 1980s, India had some operations in Pak which forced them to reduce their involvement in Punjab. The dhimmification started in 1990s.

[Satya_anveshi]

That also means if islamization of pak has stopped India from taking stern action, that is their deterrent. That also means Zia's game plan is paying off. But to what point can we take this? there has to be threshold, even a cat when pushed to the wall attacks.

Reminds me of "when enemy is making a blunder, don't disturb him"..or when your enemy is drinking poison, ask for half of it..he will drink all of it leaving you without a trace.

[member_22872]

Dhimmification is also to my understanding is an offshoot of either a deliberate policy which I don't understand or is bereft of self confidence, only when you don't appreciate your strengths that you tend to act like a sycophant. May be it also to buy time, till you take the fight directly to the enemy when the time is right, sometimes the best policy is also to wait and watch, but how long are you going to wait and watch and build your strengths, there has to be a optimum wait time after which you might miss the boat. I hope, we don't miss the boat, I am fine with waiting, I am fine with inaction as long as there is a game plan that warrants such inaction, I am not going after any one, it's our nation, I fine with anyone who makes us strong.

[abhishek_sharma]

>> I hope, we don't miss the boat, I am fine with waiting, I am fine with inaction as long as there is a game plan that warrants such inaction,

There is a plan, but we can't tell you. It is classified. Moreover, maybe you are not good enough to understand it. You also don't have enough information/knowledge to understand its subtlety.

We will take care of this problem. You should not worry too much about it. Given our great performance in other areas of public policy, you should be reassured that we have great strategic thinkers and we will surely succeed.

[shiv]

Yes, we need someone like her. Even in late 1980s, India had some operations in Pak which forced them to reduce their involvement in Punjab. The dhimmification started in 1990s.

I have no problem with the desire to have someone like her, but I remain skeptical that we will ever get one. It's like hoping for Ram rajya. A hope. We have to live with what we have. But what did covert ops do in Pakistan to stop the insurgency? Ultimately they were all wiped clean right here in India. And guess what? The few that remain are in places like Canada and Britain as well as Pakistan. India moved from crisis to crisis in that era. 1984 Operation Blue star. 1984 Indira assassinated . 1985 Air India Jumbo blown up in mid air. 1987 India entered Sri Lanka. 1989 India came out of Sri Lanka. 1991 Rajiv Gandhi assassinated. Babri Masjid brought down under PVNR's watch in 1992. 1993 MMS's star rose under PVNR. 1993 Mumbai serial blasts followed by 15 years of intense Pakistan sponsored terrorism, which was "freedom fighting" until 2001

[member_22872]

Abhishek sharma ji , knowing someone is there, really lifts my spirits!, I am fine not knowing as long as we are fine. Yes I know we have great thinkers. Ignorance makes you ask questions anyway.

[shiv]

>> I hope, we don't miss the boat, I am fine with waiting, I am fine with inaction as long as there is a game plan that warrants such inaction,

There is a plan, but we can't tell you. It is classified. Moreover, maybe you are not good enough to understand it. You also don't have enough information/knowledge to understand its subtlety.

We will take care of this problem. You should not worry too much about it. Given our great performance in other areas of public policy, you should be reassured that we have great strategic thinkers and we will surely succeed.

In fact the plan is openly revealed. No one likes it - at least on BRF. The plan is "peace and friendship with Pakistan". No one wants to believe that this is the plan. Get hit, stay hit and be friends. 1996 to 2012.

[abhishek_sharma]

I have no problem with the desire to have someone like her, but I remain skeptical that we will ever get one. It's like hoping for Ram rajya. A hope. We have to live with what we have. But what did covert ops do in Pakistan to stop the insurgency? Ultimately they were all wiped clean right here in India. And guess what? The few that remain are in places like Canada and Britain as well as Pakistan. India moved from crisis to crisis in that era. 1984 Operation Blue star. 1984 Indira assassinated . 1985 Air India Jumbo blown up in mid air. 1987 India entered Sri Lanka. 1989 India came out of Sri Lanka. 1991 Rajiv Gandhi assassinated. Babri Masjid brought down under PVNR's watch in 1992. 1993 MMS's star rose under PVNR. 1993 Mumbai serial blasts followed by 15 years of intense Pakistan sponsored terrorism, which was "freedom fighting" until 2001

IIRC, there was a meeting of RAW and ISI chiefs in some Gulf country when there were some low intensity bomb blasts in some Paki cities. Pakis stopped (or reduced) their support to Khalistanis. (They continued their game in J&K).

Of course, other countries have supported terrorists. We should take all steps against them too.

Good leadership is a problem. This is OT here but due to lack of education and poverty, people have made sub-optimal decisions in voting booths.