Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29th May 2012

[chaanakya]

Last page of previous thread.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1288578

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The following links are background articles on Pakistan.

UNDERSTANDING PAKISTAN:

Jinnah's Pakistan: An Interview with MA Jinnah, and how the Pakistan of Yesterday is the Pakistan of Today
http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html

http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/012809Tellis.pdf

The above is the testimony of Ashley Tellis on Jan 28th 2009, to the US Senate Homeland Security Committee on LeT's global role. It is a good articulation of LeT's past and future trends.

Know Your Pakistan
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... /Shiv.html

The Monkey Trap: A synopsis of Indo-Pak relations
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... ayyam.html

PAKISTAN-FAILED STATE: an ebook that owes its origin and existence to BRF.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/EBOOKS/pfs.pdf

Whither Pakistan ? Growing Instability and Implications for India: an IDSA e-Book, July 2010
http://idsa.in/book/WhitherPakistan

A landmark article that demolishes myths built up about Pakistan
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers8/paper710.html

Pakistani Role in Terrorism Against the U.S.A
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... yanan.html

Pakistani Education, or how Pakistan became what it is: Curricula and textbooks in Pakistan
http://www.sdpi.org/publications/public ... 86-34.html#

Making Enemies, Creating Conflict: Pakistan's Crises of State and Society. A book written by Pakistanis on Pakistan.
http://members.tripod.com/~no_nukes_sa/Contents.html

Should Pakistan Be Broken Up? by Gul Agha
http://pakistan70.tripod.com/gul.html

Alden Pyle in Pakistan, Part I
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2009/12/ald ... art-1.html

Prof. Walter Russell Mead, "Pakistan's Failed National Strategy"
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... -strategy/

"Pakistan Is", by Barry Bearak in New York Times Magazine, December 7, 2003.
Brings out succinctly various facets of Pakistani perfidy, obsession, fundamentalism etc.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... nted=print

PAKISTAN & TERRORISM:

The Ideologies of South Asian Jihadi Groups (Laskar-e-Taiba)
By Hussein Haqqani (journalist and Pak ambassador to US)
http://www.futureofmuslimworld.com/rese ... detail.asp

Lashkar-e-Taiba: Past Operations and Future Prospects, Stephen Tankel, April 2011
New America Foundation
http://newamerica.net/sites/newamerica. ... _LeT_0.pdf

Pakistani sponsoring of Terrorism
http://www.geocities.com/charcha_2000/
http://pak-terror.freeservers.com/Terro ... y_Tool.htm

Terror Map: The Pakistani Hand
http://sify.com/news/specials/terrormap/?vsv=TopHP1

Ethnic cleansing in Pakistan - a statistical analysis
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... idhar.html

A chronicle of genocide by the Pakistan army
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

Documentary video evidence of Pakistani genocide in Bangladesh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x-94U1bVUQ
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EBKlIUbpc ... re=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sMg9Ly9nK0g
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xwwPbkyZV ... re=related

Inside Jihad - How Pakistan sponsors terrorists in India
http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/ ... r_sb1.html

Pakistan's Role in the Kashmir Insurgency - Op-ed by Rand's Peter Chalk
http://www.rand.org/hot/op-eds/090101JIR.html

Alden Pyle in Pakistan, Part II
http://pundita.blogspot.com/2009/12/ald ... -upon.html

BEYOND MADRASAS: ASSESSING THE LINKS BETWEEN EDUCATION AND MILITANCY IN PAKISTAN
http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/ ... nthrop.pdf

Pakistani Military Officers' Links with Jihadist Organizations
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/5587.htm

PAKISTAN TODAY:

On the Frontier of Apocalypse: Christopher Hitchens seminal article on Pakistan today
http://newsstuff.0catch.com/article5.htm

http://meaindia.nic.in/bestoftheweb/2002/10/14bow2.htm

A Slender Reed in Pakistan - Editorial in the Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p08s03-comv.html

Seymour Hersh Interview
http://www.pbs.org/now/transcript/transcript_hersh.html

Pakistan's Nuclear Crimes (Wash. Post editorial)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy ... 2-2004Feb4

http://www.indiadefence.com/LOA07Aug04.htm

The Battle for Pakistan: Militancy and Conflict in Pakistan's Tribal Regions
http://counterterrorism.newamerica.net/ ... r_pakistan

BOOK REVIEW Fulcrum of Evil: ISI-CIA-Al Qaeda Nexus
http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/%5Cpap ... r1844.html

Article from Vinni Capelli - Foreign Policy Research Institute:
Containing Pakistan: Engaging the Raja-Mandala in South-Central Asia
http://www.fpri.org/orbis/5101/cappelli ... kistan.pdf

The videos are from this documentary: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/taliban/

A bomb at all cost By Ahmad Faruqui - a candid admission of the wars that Pakistan started against India.

Popular support for suicide bombings in pakistan.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 008_pg12_1
Survey by university students in karachi say 50% of respondents support suicide bombings in kashmir.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OWsmJIwe9Q4
"Descent into Chaos"
UC Berkeley Conversations with History, host Harry Kreisler talking with Pakistani Journalist Ahmed Rashid. 59 minutes 120 MB. It sums up Pakistan and lays bare all Pakistan's terrorist support and proliferation activities. **Note - he wants the US to solve Pakistan's Kashmir problem.

Pakistan on the brink: Video Link (must download)


MISCELLANEOUS
Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto telling Bangladeshis to "Go to Hell": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dsxfyxa ... re=related

IDSA's weekly summary of Pak Urdu Press:

http://www.idsa.in/pup
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Five installment series by Kapil Komireddi published in Frum Forum

Part I. Nov 16, 2009. “Pakistan In Crisis”.

Part II. Nov 18. 2009. “Pakistan: Origins of A Failed State”.

Part III. Nov 18, 2009. “Pakistan: It Could Not Succeed Unless India Failed”.

Part IV. Dec 06, 2009. “Pakistan: A Mecca for Radical Islam”.

Part V. Dec. 07, 2009. “Pakistan’s Army: Building a Nation for Jihad”

A perceptive blog on Pakistan: http://pak-watch.blogspot.com/

Declassified documents from US National Archives on Pakistan:

http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/pakistan/pakistan.htm
_______________________________________________

Admission of state sponsored terrorism by Pakistani authorities

see this Der Spigel Interview where Musharraf admits to that.

On 7th Nov in TimesNow Channel, Tasneem Noorani, a former Secretary of the Pakistani Interior Ministry, openly said that.

Kiyani called the Haqqanis as strategic assets.

In Dec. 2008, President Zardari himself admitted to ISI helping LeT. He said,"The links between the Inter-Services Intelligence Agency and the LeT were developed in the old days when dictators used to run the country. After the 9/11 terror attacks in the US, things have changed to a great extent"

In an address to bureaucrats in July 2009, President Zardari said: "Militants and extremists were deliberately created and nurtured as a policy to achieve some short-term tactical objectives. Let us be truthful to ourselves and make a candid admission of the realities. The terrorists of today were the heroes of yesteryears until 9/11 occurred and they began to haunt us as well"

In Nov. 2009, Prime Minister Gilani admitted to the support for terrorism by Musharraf as "running with the hares and hunting with the hounds".

When Bush warned the Pakistanis in August 2008 of their support to Al Qaeda, Afrasiab Khattak, President of Awami National Party (ANP) said this: "The question is why it has taken the Americans so long to see what the ISI is doing. We’ve been telling them for years but they wouldn’t buy it.". See here.

In an interview to the BBC as far back as on Feb. 13, 1994, Benazir Bhutto admitted how she handed over to Rajiv Gandhi the complete list of Sikh activists colluding with the ISI in terrorism in the Punjab. Later, Nawaz Sharif described this interview as a faux pas.

Apart from these, of course, numerous Pakistani commentators, analysts, and editors have openly admitted to terror as a state policy.

________________________________________________________________________

A Venn diagram, by Shiv, to illustrate the commonality and difference between "bad Taliban" and Jinnah's Pakistan.


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Why Did Pakistan's Spy Chief Make a Secret Trip to China?

Pasha's China trip has been interpreted by some as a tacit act of defiance—a reminder to his American counterparts that the Pakistanis can always look east to their “all-weather” friend across the Himalayas rather than bend the knee to the will of the U.S.

But it also may be a sign of China's growing disquiet with Pakistan. Another top-ranking Pakistani military officer, Lt. Gen Wahid Arshad, had already conducted a considerable tour of China just weeks ago in a bid to improve ties. A few analysts have suggested that Pasha's trip — couched in vague terms about building a “broad-based strategic dialogue” — may have been less a visit and more of a summons.

Chinese officials claimed the attacks in Kashgar were authored by the shadowy East Turkestan Islamic Movement, a jihadist organization of mostly ethnic Uighurs, a Turkic Muslim minority that comprises the majority in the far-western Chinese region of Xinjiang. China routinely invokes the specter of the terrorist threat when cracking down on dissent in the restive region. Yet disturbances there tend to be triggered more often by social discontent — many Uighurs chafe at state policies they deem discriminatory and marginalizing — than militant connivance. Pasha's presence in Beijing may mark Beijing's continued efforts to root out Uighur dissidents and sympathizers beyond China's borders, as it has already done in Kazakhstan.

Youtube video: Bilatakalluf with Tahif Gora: Tarek Fateh dissects with Pakjabi society and shows how its war-impotent Army loots the common Pakistani (Jan 13, 2012)

[Brad Goodman]

Pakistan can add to the charm of IPL: Wasim Akram

“Pakistani players Shahid Afridi, Umar Gul, Umar Akmal and Mohammad Hafeez are popular in India and Indian fans have realised they can add to the charm of the league,” said Wasim, who played 104 Tests and 352 one-day internationals for Pakistan

Pakistan cricketers unhappy with pay hikes

[Brad Goodman]

Pakistan: 'Nine killed' in Karachi targeted shootings

At least nine people, including a senior police officer, have been shot in targeted killings in the Pakistani city of Karachi, officials say.

Most of those killed overnight were the victims of drive-by shootings.

Police Superintendent Shah Mohammad was attacked by armed bikers in Karachi's eastern Korangi area.

Karachi has long suffered outbreaks of violence, blamed on criminal elements, as well as turf wars between rival political and ethnic groups.

Hundreds of people have been killed in Karachi - in southern Sindh province - since January 2012.

At least 800 people died in politically motivated attacks in the city last year.

Police suggested that Shah Mohammad might have been targeted because of his role in security crackdowns on political parties.

[chaanakya]

Pakistan tests nuclear capable Hatf IX missile

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan said on Tuesday it had successfully test fired a short-range nuclear-capable ballistic missile.

The Hatf IX has a range of only 60 kilometres (37 miles) and can carry conventional warheads, the military said.

"This quick response system addresses the need to deter evolving threats, specially at shorter ranges," it added in a statement.

It was the third time Pakistan has test fired a ballistic missile since arch-rival India last month launched its new long-range Agni V, capable of hitting targets anywhere in China.

Defence analysts say India's strategic priorities are moving away from Pakistan to focus more on China, while Pakistan is still concerned about its eastern neighbour.

[Prem]

Pakistan cleric arrested over dancing death decree
Welcome to Hotel Pakifornia

Police in Pakistan on Tuesday arrested a Muslim cleric accused of sentencing six people to death for singing and dancing at a wedding in the north of the country."Police have arrested a cleric and his companion for issuing the death decree, but they totally denied it," local administration official Aqal Badshah Khattak told AFP."The cleric has said he had no role in the decree and his name was misused," Khattak said.Police told AFP on Monday that clerics sentenced four women and two men to death after mobile phone footage emerged of them enjoying themselves at a village wedding in the mountains of Kohistan district, 175 kilometres (110 miles) north of the capital Islamabad.The men and women had allegedly danced and sung together in Gada village, in defiance of strict tribal customs that separate men and women at weddings.He said the video was recorded three years ago and then edited in an attempt to implicate the party goers."I am satisfied that there is no danger to the life of the girls," he said.

[chaanakya]

6 sentenced to death in Pak for dancing at wedding
AFP | May 29, 2012, 06.00AM IST

Four women and two men have been sentenced to death in northern Pakistan for singing and dancing at a wedding, police said on Monday . Clerics issued a decree after a mobile phone video emerged of the six enjoying themselves in a remote village in the mountainous district of Kohistan, 176 kilometres north of Islamabad.

Pakistani authorities in the area said local clerics had ordered the punishment over allegations that the men and women danced and sang together in Gada village, in defiance of strict tribal customs that separate men and women at weddings. "The local clerics issued a decree to kill all four women and two men shown in the video," district police officer Abdul Majeed Afridi said.

"It was decided that the men will be killed first, but they ran away so the women are safe for the moment. I have sent a team to rescue them," he said, adding that the women had been confined to their homes. Afridi said the events stemmed from a dispute between two tribes and that there was no evidence the men and women had been inter-mingling .

"All of them were shown separately in the video. I've seen the video," he said. "This is tribal enmity. The video has been engineered to defame the tribe," he added.

Reminds of Aurangzeb ban on music. Kafir policeman isn't implementing decree of the Mullah

[Prem]

Pakistan Bank Sees Financial Challenges
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... %3Darticle

KARACHI—Pakistan may have to return to the International Monetary Fund for financial assistance this year amid an unstable macroeconomic situation, the nation's central bank governor said Monday.Yaseen Anwar, governor of the State Bank of Pakistan, said Pakistan could meet its overseas debt obligations for now. But looming repayments to the IMF from a program that ended last year are likely to test the nation's finances in the months ahead. "From next fiscal year we're going to have stresses. We see reserves going down quite aggressively," Mr. Anwar said in a interview at the central bank's headquarters in Karachi.Mr. Anwar said the government's failure to get a massive budget and mounting trade deficit under control could make it difficult to meet the more than $4 billion in IMF loans coming due in the fiscal year starting July 1.
"There are many serious challenges," Mr. Anwar said. "I have a rough job here."The IMF ended a three-year $11 billion program with Pakistan last year after disbursing only around $8 billion. The fund withheld the final tranche of more than $3 billion in large part because the government failed to take steps to reduce its budget deficit. Payments on the loans have already begun, but they ramp up in the months ahead.The fund and foreign leaders, including U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, have been publicly critical of Pakistan for failing to tax some of its richest citizens, including politicians.

[chaanakya]

Lashkar behind 26/11, Lakhvi mastermind: Pak probe report

Pakistani investigators have corroborated the statement made by Ajmal Kasab, the lone gunman arrested in Mumbai, even as they concluded that almost all the terrorists involved in the 26/11 attack belonged to Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) and there is “sufficient evidence” to prosecute them.

The report, which was presented to the anti-terror court conducting the trial of seven accused, including LeT operations chief Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi, states that there is “sufficient incriminating evidence on record against those arrested for orchestrating the Mumbai attacks”.

The report also said that evidence collected by Pakistani investigators had corroborated the statement made by Kasab. Pakistani prosecutors and investigators have also stated in the report that almost all the accused belong to LeT and that the attacks were masterminded by Lakhvi, Dawn News reported on Wednesday.

The report, a copy of which was accessed by the channel, said: “The joint investigation team headed by the Director of the Special Investigation Group of the Federal Investigation Agency (FIA) has scrutinised the entire evidence collected during the inquiry.”

It also collected evidence “during the investigation and has unanimously agreed that substantial incriminating evidence is available on the record directly connecting all the accused with the commission of the offence”. It further said: “The accused — in active connivance with one another — planned, trained, aided, abetted and made preparations to carry out deadly terror attacks in Mumbai on November 26 to 28, 2008, through their co-accused, causing the murder of 166 innocent persons and injury to 304 persons, besides destruction of property in crores of rupees.”

The 61-page report, which was compiled by a team of experts led by FIA officials, was presented to the anti-terror court in Rawalpindi in July last year. It contains photographs of all the accused, including those still at large and have been declared “proclaimed offenders”.

Those still at large include crew of the Al-Fauz and Hussaini, the two boats used by the 10 terrorists who attacked India’s financial hub.

The report also contains a list of 150 documents and items of evidence, including proof and information provided by India.

Investigators had also corroborated Kasab’s statement about his family and his native village of Faridkot in Pakistan’s Punjab province by collecting records from his school and local voters’ list. The report concluded that all the accused should be convicted as there was sufficient incriminating evidence against them.

Diplomatic sources said the report made public by the news channel did not contain any information that was not included in the dossiers provided by Islamabad to New Delhi.

[chaanakya]

What happened to Saeed and ISI role. Training was given at Mangala cantt inside Naval area . The Dam was used to simulate Mumbai type environment for launching attack once onshore.

[saip]

This is the email supposed to have been sent by Bill and Melinda Gates foundation to Shayan Akhtar:

He is also a youngest MCPD in Windows Phone and Web Development 4. Although we have sent his world Records Documents for Verification to Guinness. We have also verified his MCP Transcript from Microsoft. It is totally valid.

He could have atleast written the email in propah Indian English, instead of pinglish.

[Lilo]

Finally, i dont know about others but i for one am not convinced that selling "Cheap oil" (whatever that means?) to pakis is some sort of sellout.

Why should India sell essential commodities to pakis who in return send terrorists to kill Indians? Just for a few $$?

x-post from previous iteration

abhijitji,
"Essential commodities" tag generally implies subsidized pricing in Indian context. I repeat, we are not going to sell at subsidized prices - nothing related to any subsidy has ever been mentioned in the news reports connected to this development.

I hope it wont be a few dollars - if the figures of 50 million POL export to pakis from india ever come to pass, it represents a bonanza ... indirectly funded by 3.5 friends of pakis, while lessening our petroleum import burden - and FOREX outflow.

Basically india imported 85 billion $ of essentially raw crude and exported 32 billion $ of refined petroleum products (after satisfying internal demand) in 2011. These exports act as a cushion to the inevitable outflow of Forex due to the large and rapidly increasing internal demand for crude imports. If our exports of refined products dont keep pace, we will be increasingly pressed on the current account deficit front and rupee will increasingly come under pressure from internal petro demand.

My belief is that 50 million POL represented by pakis is a huge market and India should use its comparitive advantage of being located beside the paki conurbation near NCR to ramp up exports from that hub ... at commercial terms .
Increasing exports of our refined petro products is imperitive to balance pressure from our internal demand.

[Mihaylo]

This is the email supposed to have been sent by Bill and Melinda Gates foundation to Shayan Akhtar:

Isn't 'Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation' purely focussed on charity ? Shouldn't Microsoft have sent that email ?

-M

[Virupaksha]

So any bets on how long it will take for Pakistan to demand India should subsidize the petroleum for the sake of prosperity and peace.

and our WKKs and bleeding hearts including on BR will "prove" its chankianness

[Sanku]

^^
Lilo-ji; very nice.

I see in your scenario building above you have left out a few things.
-1) Do you consider a prosperous Pakistan as good for India? (Yes/NO?)

If you answer yes, you dont have to answer the rest of the questions. But anyway for sake of completion.

0) Can India sell POL products from its refineries to any other nations at the same prices as it can sell to pakistan? Yes/no (please answer in one word)

1) If the market place for POL is X, is there a particular marketing reason for India to sell it any one below that, even if we can? Is it marketing? Yes/no

2) How do you know that when India says cheap, just what are the pricing mechanism built in? (absence of information is not proof of absence please)

1) India will also supply LNG. To help you understand what LNG is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas

Can you please tell us what does refinement and LNG have to do with each other?

2) The plan involves, setting up pipes for distribution, as I am sure you understand, this is large capital outlay. As is obvious as well, this capital expenditure by India needs to be recovered by regular operations.

Would such regular operation guarnatee be given by Pakistan?
If yes, what according to you will be worth of this guarantee?

3) Have you considered what would be the impact on Indian industry if similar infrastructure is made available for INDIAN DOMESTIC DEMAND. One which incidentally is starved?

==========================================================

To me, Lilo-ji, you have not considered about 90% of the situation here. However you have felt to attribute lack of understanding to others. Which to me clearly is because of a very different reason.

[Sushupti]

Youtube video: Bilatakalluf with Tahif Gora: Tarek Fateh dissects with Pakjabi society and shows how its war-impotent Army loots the common Pakistani (Jan 13, 2012)

watch 24:34--25:12 when he lists the Jehadis inside Whitehouse

[putnanja]

This is the email supposed to have been sent by Bill and Melinda Gates foundation to Shayan Akhtar:

Isn't 'Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation' purely focussed on charity ? Shouldn't Microsoft have sent that email ?

-M

Bill & Melinda Gates foundation is different from Microsoft, there is no connection between the two. B&MG foundation is setup by Bill Gates using his own money, and that solicited from donors. Microsoft has no part in it

[RCase]

This is the email supposed to have been sent by Bill and Melinda Gates foundation to Shayan Akhtar:

Isn't 'Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation' purely focussed on charity ? Shouldn't Microsoft have sent that email ?

-M

Tsk, tsk Mihaylo ji. These are minor technicalities. What one considers as charity, the Paki conisders as entitlement. Shaytan Akhtar was sent an email from Microsoft Outlook onlee.

[Sanku]

So any bets on how long it will take for Pakistan to demand India should subsidize the petroleum for the sake of prosperity and peace.

and our WKKs and bleeding hearts including on BR will "prove" its chankianness

Actually these people know what they are doing.

AFTER India has put in tons on money to develop facilities to serve Pakistan, despite Pakistan doing everything in its power to hurts us wherever possible, the money spent will be another excuse of mercantilism.

""OOHHHHHHH we cant stop supplies to Pakistan, if we do how will we get money for our oil, this oil pays for the infrastructure"

So not only do we
1) Go out of our way to help Pakistan -- and basically signal that despite Pakistan doing everything to hurt us, we will give any thing for them to try and be nice.
2) We give them extra leverage on them to be hurtful to us and increase the ways in which they can hurt us.

Of course, this will be done in the name of "good commerce" despite a clear picture that commercially speaking the deal is deeply flawed in many ways. (Diverts critical capital, manpower, and scarce resources away from India, and is sold at less than market prices)

[RCase]

Right on cue ... Qalander Consciousness ....

Watch the first few minutes for explanation for Qalander Consciousness, Poak version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo0gamHSmWQ

[Virupaksha]

Sanku ji,

I never had any doubt that they know exactly what they want and the buttons they are pushing to get the "required" reactions from Indians.

[SBajwa]

Qalandar Consciousness!! These indeed are Qalandar's of Billis (Cats) and Bandar's. (nothing against Billis and Bandar's)

[SBajwa]

Qalandar == person who performs amusing acts like Jugglery, rope tricks, make monkey/bears do tricks,etc.

[Lilo]

^^
Lilo-ji; very nice.
I see in your scenario building above you have left out a few things.
-1) Do you consider a prosperous Pakistan as good for India? (Yes/NO?)

If you answer yes, you dont have to answer the rest of the questions. But anyway for sake of completion.

0) Can India sell POL products from its refineries to any other nations at the same prices as it can sell to pakistan? Yes/no (please answer in one word)

1) If the market place for POL is X, is there a particular marketing reason for India to sell it any one below that, even if we can? Is it marketing? Yes/no

2) How do you know that when India says cheap, just what are the pricing mechanism built in? (absence of information is not proof of absence please)

1) India will also supply LNG. To help you understand what LNG is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas

Can you please tell us what does refinement and LNG have to do with each other?

2) The plan involves, setting up pipes for distribution, as I am sure you understand, this is large capital outlay. As is obvious as well, this capital expenditure by India needs to be recovered by regular operations.

Would such regular operation guarnatee be given by Pakistan?
If yes, what according to you will be worth of this guarantee?

3) Have you considered what would be the impact on Indian industry if similar infrastructure is made available for INDIAN DOMESTIC DEMAND. One which incidentally is starved?

==========================================================

To me, Lilo-ji, you have not considered about 90% of the situation here. However you have felt to attribute lack of understanding to others. Which to me clearly is because of a very different reason.

Sanku ji,

3) & 2) Amritsar is 30km from lahore, if we are going to save on the over road transportation costs from bhatinda to amritsar via faridkot by laying a pipeline upto amritsar, we may as well extend it 30 km ahead upto lawhore to milk the pakis. The amounts of capital investments going into extending 30km upto lawhore is frankly nothing much.

1) That LNG is also imported - by using indian terminal at dahej and existing indian pipeline infrastructure to send gas to its nothern hub - paki will be subsidizing our imports by a dollar or half by paying usage fees -depending on the specifics negotiated.

in either case i dont see either the paki fertilizer industry or its textile industries suddenly getting a new lease of life from increased energy access and competing with their counterparts on indian side - because rates in pakiland will always be inflated over the local indian rates

-1) No, and thats a nobrainer - but i do like the idea of an addicted pakistan in which every industrialist worth his salt knows that indian sourced petro products are cheaper by a dollar or two compared to the ones sourced from the old overland route from the "friendly" GCC countries. A pakistan weaned off its current sources of GCC petro products and made dependent on Indian sources is a pliable pakistan.

1) i dont understand ur Q here

0) For now india can only supply to pakis at competitive prices from its bhatinda refinery - just as we have been supplying nepal from mathura/barauni/bongaigon in the past, we may supply to bangladesh, srilanka in the future from our inland and coastal refineries. We are supplying to the other countries on the indian ocean rim and this has to be further ramped up.

India shall be and must be the most cost effective refiner of high sulphur crude in the future and a ideal scenario shall be when we are supplying to all and sundry in southasia and indian ocean rim. We have the low cost and skilled manpower (compared to arab based or western manpower manning the refineries currently supplying to these countries) and our companies have the capital to ramp up production, have decades of experience and pocess many bleeding edge technologies for refining high sulphur crude.

2) No one currently knows the specifics of these Indo-pak petro agreements - since they are in a gestation stage but assuming upfront that these will be on noncommercial terms is counterlogical.

============================================================================
finally sankuji , getting confused is not a bigdeal as i too get confused about many things many times but getting hung up that someone else pointed to some confusion (real or assumed) is not useful either.

[Lilo]

So any bets on how long it will take for Pakistan to demand India should subsidize the petroleum for the sake of prosperity and peace.

and our WKKs and bleeding hearts including on BR will "prove" its chankianness

On a related note let me remind that the days of subsidies as we know in Indian context are coming to their end . The current subsidy on Diesel (petrol prices are already linked to international crude prices) wont stay for long.
Finally kerosene will remain as the only subsidized fuel.

This has been repeatedly speltout in rangarajan's review of Indian economy and also in the annual economic survey report. Even RBI has been regularly harping on need to roll back subsidies for diesel and fertilizer. GOI is only waiting for a political opportunity to implement this.

So expecting GOI to overtly or covertly subsidize paki imports in future is highly illogical when there are going to be none existing in India at that juncture.

There i proved the chankian-ness.

[Prem]

Pyari Ghyari victims declared martyrs
Here come the Paoqs, To give Hoors the shock

untiring efforts, bodies of three soldiers have been recovered, so far. Pakistan Army said that given the improbability of recovering anyone alive, and after consulting religious leaders, "it has been decided to declare the remaining brave soldiers as "shuhada" (martyrs) to try to reduce the families suffering."This is being done with mixed feelings of pride, grief and above all unflinching resolve to continue all out efforts to recover the bodies of all shuhada," the military said in a statement posted on its website on Tuesday.A huge wall of snow crashed into the remote Siachen Glacier base high in the mountains in disputed region in the early hours of April 7, smothering an area of one square kilometre (a third of a square mile).Only three bodies have so far been recovered from the remote glacier, dubbed the world s highest battleground, despite desperate rescue efforts assisted by foreign teams.Rescuers have dug tunnels into the mass of snow and ice that hit the battalion headquarters of the 6th Northern Light Infantry to try to recover the bodies of 129 soldiers and 11 civilians at the Gayari camp.The site is 4,000 metres (13,000 feet) up in the mountains, just below the glacier where Pakistani and Indian troops have faced off since the 1980s.

[harbans]

Only three bodies have so far been recovered from the remote glacier, dubbed the world s highest battleground,

Gyari is at an altitude of about 13k. It's not in Siachen at all. Siachen is 18k plus. Where the Indian Army sits in Saltoro is 23k ASL.

Lilo ji, you are offering a good perspective. From what i understand you are saying that larger finished product export reduces our import bill. It also may subsidize our costs by a dollar or so while providing Paki's finished petroleum products at a more tempting cost over what they already get from the GCC.

[Lilo]

From what i understand you are saying that larger finished product export reduces our import bill. It also may subsidize our costs by a dollar or so while providing Paki's finished petroleum products at a more tempting cost over what they already get from the GCC.

Exactly Harbans ji, and more succinctly put.

[harbans]

Thanks Lilo for your inputs, makes sense. In the Eco thread a few days back similar data was posted. Japan, Korea rose to be major steel exporters without having a ton of iron ore on them. Similarly India needs more, Mittal, Reliance type refineries to deliver finished products to the world markets to offset the dent in our forex balance from import of crude oil varieties. However i still am not understanding the offer of electricity we are doling out to the Paki's. Whats the take on that?

[Lilo]

Iam not sure about the offer on electricity harbans ji , but the imminent rollout of smart grid technologies into indian grid are supposed to make the managment of available installed capacities quite flexible and that much more complex. Also the power supply situation in indian north west is an unknown for me and which alone should decide any prospects of supply of surplus power to pakis at renumerative rates for india.

[saip]

Gyari is angry. Two more sent to collect their 72!

2 soldiers killed in Siachen landsliding

Link

[Anindya]

From http://durotrigan.blogspot.co.uk/2012/0 ... luton.html

News is breaking of a Sikh protest in Luton, apparently prompted by the release of a man accused of sexually assaulting a Sikh girl. Given that Stephen Lennon of the EDL has stated that they will be joining the protest, the assumption must be that the alleged perpetrator of the assault was from a Muslim background. Some 250 Sikhs are reported as having gathered to protest outside of Luton Police Station. One Tweet also claims that some roads in the town have also been blocked off as a consequence.

According to a brief report on the East Anglia EDL Division page, the man charged with the assault is of Pakistani origin. A report on a Sikh forum claims that the girl was dragged into some woodland and raped. The BBC reports that the alleged assault took place on Monday, and that a sit-down protest is taking place outside of Luton's Buxton Road police station. Although it mentioned "members of the Sikh community", the report contained no reference to the EDL.

[SBajwa]

News is breaking of a Sikh protest in Luton, apparently prompted by the release of a man accused of sexually assaulting a Sikh girl.

That's uncalled for! Let's see what UK justice does here!!

[Pranav]

Thanks Lilo for your inputs, makes sense. In the Eco thread a few days back similar data was posted. Japan, Korea rose to be major steel exporters without having a ton of iron ore on them. Similarly India needs more, Mittal, Reliance type refineries to deliver finished products to the world markets to offset the dent in our forex balance from import of crude oil varieties. However i still am not understanding the offer of electricity we are doling out to the Paki's. Whats the take on that?

One can trade at international market rates, with advance payment.

What is more worrying is that India is buying gas at the Turkmen border and bearing the risk for transportation through AfPak.

[arun]

Pakistan can add to the charm of IPL: Wasim Akram

“Pakistani players Shahid Afridi, Umar Gul, Umar Akmal and Mohammad Hafeez are popular in India and Indian fans have realised they can add to the charm of the league,” said Wasim, who played 104 Tests and 352 one-day internationals for Pakistan

India needs to be circumspect about allowing cricketers from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to play in India given the possibility of their linkages to Mohammadden Terrorism.

A case in point is this news item from today’s Express Tribune regards the family link of fast bowler Umar Gul to a Mohammadden Terrorist :

‘Harbouring a militant’: Commandos raid Umar Gul’s house

This link of a cricketer from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to Mohammadden Terrorism is off course not an isolated one. Earlier in 2003 it was reported that a Mohammadden Terrorist killed in Jammu & Kashmir was the cousin of Pakistani cricketer Shahid Afridi:

Afridi's cousin killed in J&K: BSF

Incidentally both Umar Gul and Shahid Afridi are on the list of cricketers from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan that Wasim Akram has named as those who "can add to the charm of the league" .

[pankajs]

What is more worrying is that India is buying gas at the Turkmen border and bearing the risk for transportation through AfPak.

The chankian viewpoint can be that it will allow India to take a hand in the Afghanistan endgame. India may be forced to induct personal to ensure the security of the pipeline as it passes through a volatile Afghanistan.

[Anujan]

India gives Pakistan Saeed phone taps
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels ... e-taps-920

This evidence shared at the recent Islamabad meeting of the two home secretaries, top intelligence sources said, was in the form of phone intercepts where Saeed is heard talking to top Lashkar commanders like Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi and Abu Al Qama.

“I think after what we have given Pakistan this time they cannot question either our evidence nor deny their involvement in terror activities," a senior official said.

Yes!! Now Pakistan will get convinced!!

[pankajs]

Pakistan censures anti-China ETIM

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan on Tuesday condemned the East Turkistan Islamic Movement (ETIM), which is involved in terror activities in China, as Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani assured the visiting Chinese foreign minister of his government's fullest support and cooperation in countering terrorism.
Similar views were expressed by President Asif Ali Zardari, who said militancy was a common enemy and should be defeated by joint efforts and mutual cooperation.
According to details, Gilani told Yang Jiechi that Pakistan was re-negotiating the parameters of relationship with the US on the basis of mutual interest and respect, sovereignty and national dignity, a statement from the PM office said.
Gilani underscored the importance of fast-track implementation of agreed projects in energy, mining, infrastructure, IT, telecom, agriculture and agro-based industries, engineering goods, railways, communication, finance and banking. The prime minister said he was grateful to China for releasing finances for the Neelum-Jhelum Hydro-Electric Plant by the EXIM Bank. He expressed the hope that the Second Joint Energy Group meeting in Islamabad would open new vistas of cooperation in the energy sector between both countries. Yang Jiechi reaffirmed his government's support for Pakistan's independence, territorial integrity and dignity, the statement said.
He said China had encouraged the US and India to promote relations with Pakistan and give due consideration to its legitimate demands.
Gilani expressed his confidence that the Chinese government would support Pakistan's endeavour to improve relations with India and the US.
The Chinese dignitary appreciated Pakistan’s stance on Tibet, Taiwan and Xingjian, and said his country would continue to enhance co-operation with Pakistan in the various fields.
About the Karakorum Highway, the foreign minister said China was ready to transport heavy machinery to deal with the landslides and open the strategic land route between China and Pakistan.
Yang Jiechi expressed the hope that the issues relating to Gwadar would soon be resolved, making the port operational at the optimum level. He said the financial institutions of China would give highest consideration to extension of assistance to Pakistan in sectors like energy, infrastructure and communication.
Defence Minister Ahmad Mukhtar, Foreign Affairs Hina Rabbani Khar, Water and Power Minister Syed Naveed Qamar and senior government officials were present during the meeting. On the other hand, President Asif Ali Zardari proposed establishment of trans-border economic zones for development and prosperity of Gilgit-Baltistan and western regions of China, while he also suggested an umbrella setup ‘Pakistan-China Power Corporation’ in the energy sector, which would include specialists and entities from all the fields.
Spokesperson to the President Senator Farhatullah Babar while briefing about the meeting at the Presidency, Zardari told the Chinese foreign minister that he was thankful the Chinese leadership for the unswerving and continued support to Pakistan's sovereignty, territorial integrity and multifaceted assistance at all hours of need.
He said Pakistani people highly valued their brotherly relations with China and were eager to learn from the Chinese experience of growth and development.
The president Pakistan was keen to translate traditional equation with China into economic terms and attaches great importance to enhancing economic and trade linkages.
He said the enhanced economic engagement of the two countries was an encouraging development and the two countries needed to fast-track implementation of mutually agreed projects for the mutual benefit of the people.
While expressing with satisfaction over the increased bilateral trade, the president remarked that there was still a great margin, which could be explored for further enhancing the trade volume.
Zardari said China might send frequent purchase missions to Pakistan to help reduce the current trade imbalance.
Terming the conclusion of bilateral currency swap agreement a major development, the president said the decision of the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China (ICBC) decision to open its branches in Pakistan was another positive development to enhance trade and investment.
Zardari said Pakistan was passing through a challenging phase in the energy sector. “We greatly appreciate Chinese assistance and investment in the energy sector.”
On the situation prevailing in the region, the president said Pakistan as an important player and China as a source of region stability had a great role to play in promoting regional stability and development.
Zardari said Pakistan fully endorsed China's call for the SCO and existing multilateral mechanisms to play their full role in the region for promoting peace, stability and development.
Speaking on the occasion, the Chinese foreign minister reiterated his country’s firm commitment and support safeguarding Pakistan's sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity, adding that China would continue to support Pakistan on all regional and international platforms.

Why does pakistan expect visiting designates to reiterate their stand on the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of pakistan every time?

[Pranav]

What is more worrying is that India is buying gas at the Turkmen border and bearing the risk for transportation through AfPak.

The chankian viewpoint can be that it will allow India to take a hand in the Afghanistan endgame. India may be forced to induct personal to ensure the security of the pipeline as it passes through a volatile Afghanistan.

More likely, pay more Jizya to get the gas through.

[pgbhat]

India gives Pakistan Saeed phone taps
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels ... e-taps-920

This evidence shared at the recent Islamabad meeting of the two home secretaries, top intelligence sources said, was in the form of phone intercepts where Saeed is heard talking to top Lashkar commanders like Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi and Abu Al Qama.

“I think after what we have given Pakistan this time they cannot question either our evidence nor deny their involvement in terror activities," a senior official said.

Yes!! Now Pakistan will get convinced!!

What next? ask RAA agents to testify in Pacquistani courts?

[partha]

What is more worrying is that India is buying gas at the Turkmen border and bearing the risk for transportation through AfPak.

The chankian viewpoint can be that it will allow India to take a hand in the Afghanistan endgame. India may be forced to induct personal to ensure the security of the pipeline as it passes through a volatile Afghanistan.

If Pakistan does not ensure the safety of the pipeline in its territory then we can
1. Stop export of fuel, electricity.
2. Make sure that pipeline is not safe in Afghanistan with the help of 100000 consulates we have there thus disrupting fuel supply to Pakistan.
3. Put pressure on Afghanistan to stop supply to Pakistan and transport the gas in the form of LNG from Delaram (pipeline passes through Delaram) to Zaranj by road which India built in Afghanistan and from there to Chahbar port, building of which is again being done by Indian assistance and from there to India by Sea!

Bangladesh has shown interest in the project. It will be a good idea to involve them. So whenever Pakistan plays games and stops fuel supply, it will be India+Bangla vs Pak.

As I have said before, liberal visa regime is the one that is most troubling.