Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 29th May 2012

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 01 Jul 2012 17:54

chandrabhan wrote:On My personal level, I have nudged 2 of the team owners to stay away from Pawkis. They have complied. There are few in BCCI who give the logic that Indian team has lost the killer instinct since we stopped playing pawkistan.

A nudge (or, rather a push) is also needed to stop the hiring of paki coaches and TV commentators for IPL. The circle will be complete and the pakis will sing paeans of hindu zehaniyat for ages to come.

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » 01 Jul 2012 19:40

Dont know if it was posted but here it is.

Ajai Shukla's Book Review of Aparna Pande's "Explaining Pakistan’s Foreign Policy: Escaping India"

Aparna Pande’s excellent book, Explaining Pakistan’s Foreign Policy: Escaping India, is a must read for Indian travellers to Pakistan who tend to gush to the locals, “You know, this is just like India, we don’t feel like we’ve come to another country”, and then feel perplexed by the Lahori’s cold response. Secure in our millennia-old identity, few of us Indians are aware of Pakistan’s quest for an identity; the logic of its “anti-India” worldview; and the many fictions that our neighbour has embraced in answering that simplest of questions: “who am I?”

I recall my own bewilderment when I met the Pakistan High Commission’s press counsellor before my first visit to that country. Invited into his office, I was treated to a diatribe about how Pakistan was so different from squalid, beggar-infested India. “We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands . “We feel caged in the tiny houses you have here.” He was referring to his Vasant Vihar flat.

As he expanded on this theme, contrasting how Pakistanis bought oranges in baskets of a hundred, rather than the half dozen oranges that an Indian would buy, I dismissed him as a crank who had served too long in a difficult posting. But within Pakistan, and especially amongst the policymaking elite, I soon encountered similar views: the embrace of Afghan, Persian, Central Asian or pan-Islamic identities to repudiate any shameful linkages with the unwashed masses of India. Historical connections with India, it would appear, existed only through the pre-British, Muslim ruling class.

Pande’s book explores how and why Pakistan repudiates its history. For this, you have to pay Rs 6,750/- for a slim, handsome volume that is a part of Routledge’s Contemporary South Asia series. But that daunting amount buys you a carefully researched historical analysis that traces the crafting of our neighbour’s national identity, from the time that the Muslim League convinced itself that a nation could be constructed on the basis of a shared religious identity, with Islam substituting for nationalism. Such an identity, Pakistan’s leaders felt, was as central to the new state’s survival as the armed defence of its physical borders. Any ideological frontier naturally requires an ideological “other”, Pande argues, which for Pakistan has always been a malevolent “Hindu” India, epitomised by the crafty Hindu bania. Such a worldview permeates through Pakistani society, being propagated through a “Pakistan Studies” curriculum at all levels of schooling.

Pande deconstructs Pakistan’s pan-Islamic ideology (it was the world’s first Islamic Republic), which it sustained with difficulty even through Cold War alliances with the “anti-Islamic” west. Saudi Arabia described Pakistan’s 1954 entry into the US-led Baghdad Pact as “a stab in the heart of the Arab and Muslim states,” while Islamabad’s pro-west stance during the 1956 Suez Crisis seriously damaged relations with Egypt. Meanwhile Nehru’s stock remained high across much of West Asia, so Pakistan could cite Islamic solidarity mainly in its relations with Turkey and Iran.

But Islamabad continued to play the pan-Islamic card, irritating old civilisations like Egypt by lecturing them about religion as the predominant marker of identity. Pande quotes Egypt’s King Farouk’s acid observation that “Pakistanis believed that Islam was born on August 14, 1947.”

The author highlights Pakistan’s contortions in reconciling pan-Islamism with its friendship with Communist China. Even in 1956, Prime Minister Suhrawardy was saying, “I feel perfectly certain that when the crucial time comes, China will come to our assistance.” Pakistan’s vocal advocacy for the rights of Muslim minorities anywhere does not extend to the Uyghurs in Xinjiang, who Beijing has long persecuted as separatists and supporters of terrorism. At successive meetings of the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC), Pakistan has dissuaded fellow Muslim countries from tabling a resolution on the Uyghur issue, even while raising the issue of Kashmir and allegations of persecution of the Muslim minority in India.

Too many Indians, especially policymakers, deal with Pakistan as if it were a normal country that makes rational calculations to materially benefit its people, rather than a confused, ideological hybrid for whom confronting the “other” remains the primary buttress of a shaky national identity. Too often, Pakistan’s unshakeable opposition to India is laid at the army’s doorstep, based on the simplistic conclusion that peace does not suit the generals. Pande’s dense but readable book leaves the reader with the gloomy conclusion that anti-Indianism runs much deeper, flowing along the roots and branches of an artificial and ill-conceived national identity.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 01 Jul 2012 20:03

SSridhar wrote:
ramana wrote:There is this remote chance that TSP is shipping them to KSA for further processing?
Ramana, if you mean that the TSP is betraying these terrorists and turning them over to India through the KSA, I doubt even that remote possibility for the reason that Abu Jundal is a PA/ISI man (through the LeT). The PA/ISI will be nailed even more through these arrested guys. This is an operation that has gone awry for the PA/ISI. PA/ISI/LeT are planning for another and more spectacular terror strike and they overstretched. The PA/ISI/LeT also underestimated the meticulousness and perseverance of the Indian intel agencies. These arrests and deportations to India, in spite of strong claims by TSP that they were Pakistanis, add uncertainty to the jihadis and closes down a safe haven hitherto enjoyed by TSP.

Time and again we see tactical brilliance by the kabila state vs plodding unspectacular diligence by the SDRE state. Enough to conclude that these are deep seated meme level traits?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jul 2012 20:08

My attempt at Understanding TSP:

http://www.indiaresearch.org/UnderstandingPakistan.pdf

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jul 2012 20:44

ramana wrote:My attempt at Understanding TSP:

http://www.indiaresearch.org/UnderstandingPakistan.pdf

Slide 17 has the labels "India Occupied Kashmir" and "Azad Kashmir"
Slide 26: "All invaders left a few monuments and definitely their genes". I think that gene part is controversial, but I'm not sure. I mention it only because of ongoingBRF discussions

Aside from these quibbles the material is comprehensive and accurate. Very detailed. In fact a ppt with narration would be good. Slide 63 is great.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 01 Jul 2012 21:05

Lost killer instinct ? What dope these BCCI guys smoke ?

In addition to this, influx of Paki 'artists' into India for any purpose should also be stopped. I don't watch any Indian movie if it has a Paki actor or singer. This idea should be made mainstream.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Jul 2012 21:13

BCCI guy is trying to say that we are the bulls and the Pakis are the red flags! Only upon see red, do we get into top gear onlee!

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 01 Jul 2012 21:25

Rise in suicides amongst PA forces in Balochistan.
http://www.balochjohd.com/modules/xnews ... toryid=636

Our sources have reliably learned that Differences between Pak armed forces in Balochistan, the Army and Frontier Corps have surfaced and the escalated conflict brought the secrets out in Public, and Pakistan Military High Command are highly concerns over the issue.

Though Pak army is always in denial, yet a trend of suicide within the armed forces is widely talked of about personnel deployed in Balochistan. The list surfaced so far, shows Major Mohsin Choudry at the top , who hanged himself , and found dead .He was posted in the Bahlool Area of Chamalang ,Kohlu.

According to sources the suicide toll reached eight in the same area. While in the Dera Bugti , Abid Hussain (JCO),and Tanveer Multani (Driver) are also included among the suicides. In the newly established Sui Cantonment Major Kalimullah and Shahid Choudry committed suicide due to psychological stress. Captan Pervaiz and Ziauddin Sawati,from Turbat Cantonment, Yasin and Asif from Khuzdar Cantonment, Mubaashir Hussain and Muhammad Siddique from Gawadar cantonment, Shafqat Ali from Noshki Cantonment, Haider Ali Kharan, Shareef Raza from Qalat, Lieutenant Safdar Ali Butt and Touseef from Kahan, Nujahid Khairullah Shinwari and Yasir Ali from Jaalri, while Malik Waqar Hussain and Ismail Shah have taken their lives at Karmoo Wadh Checkpost.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 01 Jul 2012 21:26

ramana wrote:My attempt at Understanding TSP:

http://www.indiaresearch.org/UnderstandingPakistan.pdf

Why do the slides show J&K (incl Srinagar) as part of Pakistan?

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 01 Jul 2012 21:50

SSridhar wrote:
ramana wrote:There is this remote chance that TSP is shipping them to KSA for further processing?
Ramana, if you mean that the TSP is betraying these terrorists and turning them over to India through the KSA, I doubt even that remote possibility for the reason that Abu Jundal is a PA/ISI man (through the LeT). The PA/ISI will be nailed even more through these arrested guys. This is an operation that has gone awry for the PA/ISI. PA/ISI/LeT are planning for another and more spectacular terror strike and they overstretched. The PA/ISI/LeT also underestimated the meticulousness and perseverance of the Indian intel agencies. These arrests and deportations to India, in spite of strong claims by TSP that they were Pakistanis, add uncertainty to the jihadis and closes down a safe haven hitherto enjoyed by TSP.

Either that or unkil is back to his old tricks. It is hard to believe they did not / do not keep track of "global jihadis", and could have well short-changed the LeT piglet to yank ISI's testimonials . Add Panetta's 3 day visit to India, it could well be a carrot to India and stick to Pakistan to get India involved in the American afghan war mess.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 01 Jul 2012 21:52

^^^^

I recall my own bewilderment when I met the Pakistan High Commission’s press counsellor before my first visit to that country. Invited into his office, I was treated to a diatribe about how Pakistan was so different from squalid, beggar-infested India. “We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands . “We feel caged in the tiny houses you have here.” He was referring to his Vasant Vihar flat.

As he expanded on this theme, contrasting how Pakistanis bought oranges in baskets of a hundred, rather than the half dozen oranges that an Indian would buy, I dismissed him as a crank who had served too long in a difficult posting. But within Pakistan, and especially amongst the policymaking elite, I soon encountered similar views: the embrace of Afghan, Persian, Central Asian or pan-Islamic identities to repudiate any shameful linkages with the unwashed masses of India. Historical connections with India, it would appear, existed only through the pre-British, Muslim ruling class.

They are creating a new history and Indians are not even aware of it. It is a modern version of the Mughal fake history and instead of the Mughal royal family here it is the entire upper class Pakistan social group which is mimicing the Mughals.

The real interesting part is that the Americans are buying into it and also the British.
The Americans have actually produced some documentary on the Mughals and other related topics.
Negating Indian and Hindu history is done in a subtle way and west is active in this.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 01 Jul 2012 21:57

Ambar wrote:
Either that or unkil is back to his old tricks. It is hard to believe they did not / do not keep track of "global jihadis", and could have well short-changed the LeT piglet to yank ISI's testimonials . Add Panetta's 3 day visit to India, it could well be a carrot to India and stick to Pakistan to get India involved in the American afghan war mess.

Indian deaths inside India due to these terrorists cannot be a bargain for Indian foreign policy.
LeT was banned only in 2008 and the message to the Pakis was that it is OK to kill Indians until these outfits are banned. US policy has actively encouraged killing of Indians inside India.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Jul 2012 22:14

India should apologize for sending Surjeet Singh to spy: Rehman Malik

India should also apologize for inviting Kasab to India. Pakistan can help draft the apology letter and determine market rates for apology.

Claiming that foreign intelligence agencies were involved in violence in Karachi to sabotage the peace in Pakistan's financial hub, Malik said: "India should tell how many extremists they have sent to Pakistan".

India should tell how many extremists they sent to Pakistan whom Pakistan sent back to India. It is important to keep proper credit/debit accounts in any import-export business.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 01 Jul 2012 22:22

Charlie wrote:I recall my own bewilderment when I met the Pakistan High Commission’s press counsellor before my first visit to that country. Invited into his office, I was treated to a diatribe about how Pakistan was so different from squalid, beggar-infested India. “We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands. “We feel caged in the tiny houses you have here.” He was referring to his Vasant Vihar flat.

inbred idiots.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 01 Jul 2012 23:00

“We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands

I think he meant donkeys or may be mules on the rocky and inhospitable Afghan terrain

I think I am getting a picture here.
I am sure the press counseler must have said that had a very wild night with a hot blond in a five star hotel presidents suite. Pakis being the world's number one ***** visitors and imagining having an intercourse with a bombshell blonde or filipino virgin or some strange fantasy of theirs while pounding a poor goat or a donkey.
If we then connect these two,can we say that the Paki has schizophrenia?
Perhaps our resident hakim can shed some light on this. This is going to be interesting!

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 01 Jul 2012 23:07

Charlie wrote:Dont know if it was posted but here it is.

Ajai Shukla's Book Review of Aparna Pande's "Explaining Pakistan’s Foreign Policy: Escaping India"

This Aparna Pande is quite smart and sharp. She works for Hudson institute now after a PhD from Boston University. Has already appeared in a few talk shows/TV panels etc.

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 01 Jul 2012 23:19

RajeshA wrote:BCCI guy is trying to say that we are the bulls and the Pakis are the red flags! Only upon see red, do we get into top gear onlee!

Rajeshji,
Not all but a few of the members are of that view. BCCI president & A Jaitley are firmly against it. Biggest votaries of pawk tour are certain member from CONGress & a youth BJP member along with some NCP & NC members.
PMO is very upset at BCCI not announcing any tour as of 2 weeks back. Captain, off course does not look keen at all.

deepan gill · Post by **deepan gill** » 01 Jul 2012 23:41

Acharya wrote:
Ambar wrote:
Either that or unkil is back to his old tricks. It is hard to believe they did not / do not keep track of "global jihadis", and could have well short-changed the LeT piglet to yank ISI's testimonials . Add Panetta's 3 day visit to India, it could well be a carrot to India and stick to Pakistan to get India involved in the American afghan war mess.
Indian deaths inside India due to these terrorists cannot be a bargain for Indian foreign policy.
LeT was banned only in 2008 and the message to the Pakis was that it is OK to kill Indians until these outfits are banned. US policy has actively encouraged killing of Indians inside India.

I recall during Khalistan days, as a young boy I used to read Indian newspapers, claiming this singh and that singh received terrorist training in US etc. It formed an impression that there are blocs, one bloc against India, another bloc with India. Once I reached US, I myself attended these so-called terrorist camps in US where Khalistanis were trained. And by god anyone can join, just pay $25, buy the ammo and there you go, you are shooting off a 9MM or AK-47. You can find these places in pennsylvania and other states.

Now if you are a die-hard, then for couple of hundred bucks you can join a survival camp and learn to live off the land and participate is military style simulation with paintball guns. I hardly call this a terrorist camp, you get more training when playing call of duty.

Now how has US policy encouraged killing of Indians? Since when did US policy become dependent of Indian approval? In a far-reaching calculation yes this statement is thought provoking, but there is always another side to a story. US had its aims, Pakistan was willing to assist, US gave Pakistani what it needed, Pakistan used it against India, US sent dossiers to Pakistan, asking them to stop their naughty behaviour, and US kept its bigger objectives clear, destruction of evil empire.

Now what has India done since Islamic terror has been unleashed on her since 1948, it has demanded that the world should tell Pakistan to stop, it has asked US to declare Pakistan a terrorist state while India itself seeks MFN status from Pakistan. India's Home Minister says, Pakistan is not doing enough on terror, while Indian PM is giving freebies to Pakistan, Indian Home Minister is saying, now there are state actors involved in spreading Islamic terror in India, while on the other hand Indian Home Secretary is saying peace talks with Pakistan must go on. After watching this circus of Indians, how in god's name do you expect the world to take us seriously?

LOL, Zardari said after Mumbai attacks, non state actors were involved, can someone please tell me WTF is a state actor and a non state actor? Is he implying that Pakistani citizens do not make a state? And look how quickly Indian media gave justification to the highly moronic term, state-actors. Has Pakistan used this term when describing attacks from ISI backed Haqqini thugs on US troops? But they used it openly against India, they are mocking us because they know Indians are thinkers, not doers.

This is how pathetic we Indians are, recently in news, India's upcoming President claimed, "if we lauch war on Pakistan, foreign troops will enter kashmir, for so many years we have kept the out". I mean, am I the only one, or does anyone else also sees the sickle and hammer in this statement???? THIS MAN IS GOING TO BE OUR NEW PRESIDENT, and this has been Congress policy regarding Kashmir!!!! How much is India's defence budget? This shows how much faith our leaders have in our armed forces.

Is anyone out there concerned? Did you see media make an issue of this?

It is wrong to say that US policy is encouraging killing of Indians. Rather, Indians themselves are encouraging killing of Indians. Its time to call spade a spade.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 01 Jul 2012 23:46

Rajiv Lather wrote:
Three major incidents that may have shaped the way he thinks are hanging of ZAB, Zardari's long imprisonment and finally the assassination of his wife.

So what do you think is going on in his mind right now ? And more importantly what is he planning for the future ?

I have a feeling the answers to the above two questions are going to be very important for India.

...Johann,

Following the points you have made and looking at some of Zardari's inexplicable decisions I have a feeling Zardari has made a conscious decision to weaken and finally destroy the cohesion of Central and Northern Punjab in Pakistan.

Now this region is the powerful core which holds Pakistan together. Zardari has decided come what may, he will keep chipping away at this region until its power is diminished to an extent that it will never again threaten him or his family. And if in doing so Pakistan breaks up again, then so be it. This move, both defensive (self-preservation) and offensive (revenge) is being enacted in a way that defense and offence compliment and strengthen each other.

Here's a different way to look at it - the PPP's and the Bhutto's consistent enemies have been the right wing of Pakistani nationalists - the Army and the hardcore Islamists. These are people with a very unitary, centralised view of Pakistani identity and politics.

Zardari understands that provincial devolution weakens both of those parties. He's pushed devolution forward even though at one level it weakens the executive at the centre, and strengthens Shahbaz Sharif sitting in Lahore.

In any case since the PA and ISI undermine are the ultimate heart of actual central authority, Zardari is not undermining his or his party's position, particularly since the PPP is one of the only all-Pakistan parties of any real size.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 02 Jul 2012 00:12

I think the release of Surjeet has been disgracefully handled by GoI. If he had spied for India, his family should have been handsomely (and quietly) compensated for what he has had to go through. He should then have been told not to speak to the Media. It is a huge embarrassment for him to declare on national TV that he was a spy and was abandoned by GoI.

I may sound very callous in saying this, but we also shouldn't publicly plead for Sarabjit's release. Our official line should be that he is completely innocent and if he is hanged that will show that Pak is a heartless nation, we stop the Aman ki Tamasha and other cooperation.
At best, we can do some back channel talks thru the WKK's, which GoI can unofficially endorse, provided the family does not keep appearing on TV asking for his release. At the rate the Sarabjit issue is being played up by the Media, Sarabjit will end up being equated with Kasab.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 02 Jul 2012 01:16

deepan gill wrote:. US had its aims ...

After every 2-3 weeks, we get pious pontification on how US has its own "interests" and "aims", and we should get used to it. Generally these arguments are based on first-rate MUTU-ism and lahori logic. I don't understand why US continuously whines when other country support terrorist groups. You know Saudi Arabia and Iran have their own "interests" and "aims".

It is wrong to say that US policy is encouraging killing of Indians.

Good lahori logic. It is wrong to say that Iran is encouraging killing of Israelis (via Hezbollah). It is wrong to say that Mullah Omar was encouraging killing of Americans by hosting OBL. Why are Americans trying to find him?

Rather, Indians themselves are encouraging killing of Indians. Its time to call spade a spade.

Indian leadership in hardly perfect. By not responding to terrorist attacks, they have to take some blame if terrorists/Pakis are emboldened. However, unlike some, the Indian govt does not give weapons to LeT-supporting countries. The Indian govt has not destroyed evidence against the perpetrators of 1993 Bombay blasts.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 02 Jul 2012 01:23

pgbhat wrote:
Charlie wrote:I recall my own bewilderment when I met the Pakistan High Commission’s press counsellor before my first visit to that country. Invited into his office, I was treated to a diatribe about how Pakistan was so different from squalid, beggar-infested India. “We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands. “We feel caged in the tiny houses you have here.” He was referring to his Vasant Vihar flat.
inbred idiots.

I never knew the ability to ride a horse can be passed thru genes!!

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 02 Jul 2012 01:46

Cross post from Intelligence & National Security Discussion

Roperia wrote:While Indian govt. under the leadership of Congress President Sonia Gandhi and Dr. MMS was trying to move forward in our relations with Jihadistan, ISI was planning several ambitious operations.

The life and crimes of Abu Jundal | NDTV Documentary

Syed Zabiuddin Jundal is now being questioned by Indian investigating agencies. He is one of the key people who planned and executed the 26/11 attack. But his is a story that starts from rural Maharashtra where people still remember him as a hard-working, soft-spoken boy. NDTV travels to Beed to know Jundal's story.

AbhiJ · Post by **AbhiJ** » 02 Jul 2012 02:13

Pakistan’s Shias announce active participation in politics

Something to Support here.

Allama Raja Nasir Abbas Jafari told the gathering at the historic Minar-e-Pakistan that recent terrorist attack on the Pakistani pilgrims in Quetta was an attempt by the enemy to fan the fire of sectarianism, but these elements will never succeed to divide Muslims.

Who is the Enemy?

It's Sunny. Not Fornistan wala.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Jul 2012 02:18

X-Post....

abhischekcc wrote:
Singha wrote:Pak horror films breathe life into under-construction building
Press Trust of India / New Delhi June 27, 2012, 14:35

Three pakistani horror films – "Zinda Laash" (1967),
"Zibahkhana" (2007) and "Aurat Raaj" (1979) are set to be screened at different parts of the broken down Khoj Studios, on July 6.

Yeah, a film called Aurat Raaj would be a horror film in Pakistan.

They are more used to being ruled by hijdas.

deepan gill · Post by **deepan gill** » 02 Jul 2012 02:50

After every 2-3 weeks, we get pious pontification on how US has its own "interests" and "aims", and we should get used to it. Generally these arguments are based on first-rate MUTU-ism and lahori logic. I don't understand why US continuously whines when other country support terrorist groups. You know Saudi Arabia and Iran have their own "interests" and "aims".

Abhishek, I fail to understand what you are trying to say here? Of course every nation has its own interests, and yes just like how RAW was funding, training and supplying weapons to LTTE. This my friend is directly encouraging terrorism in a country. Just like how Pakistan, funds, trains and supplies weapons to Islamic terrorists against India.

Please tell me one instance where US has supplied a terrorist organization with weapons, training or money to encourage killing of Indians?

I dont understand "Lahori Logic" BUT it so happens, my Nanaji came from Lahore during partition. And, as far I know, Lahori logic came to Mumbai, killed Indians, and so-called UP logic has so far been to send dossiers after dossiers. It seems there is some merit in Lahori Logic, wouldn't you agree? Afterall, they are wining right? Taking away free electricity, free goodies, now has labeled the Hindus as terrorists as well, already influenced our PM to make concessions on Siachen, so I think we should not dismiss this Lahori Logic just yet, its kicking our ass at the moment.

Good lahori logic. It is wrong to say that Iran is encouraging killing of Israelis (via Hezbollah). It is wrong to say that Mullah Omar was encouraging killing of Americans by hosting OBL. Why are Americans trying to find him?

Abhishek, read my post again, I simply said it is wrong to say that US POLICY ENCOURAGES KILLNG OF INDIANS. This is what I said, and I stand by my statement that US and people of US are far more humane and passionate to allow such policies to be conducted by their govt. Even today fully being aware that Muslims eye for US blood, US citizens still welcome muslims to their shores. Dorry buddy I have lived in US for 38 years and you this statement "US POLICY ENCOURAGES KILLNG OF INDIANS" is false.

Indian leadership in hardly perfect. By not responding to terrorist attacks, they have to take some blame if terrorists/Pakis are emboldened. However, unlike some, the Indian govt does not give weapons to LeT-supporting countries. The Indian govt has not destroyed evidence against the perpetrators of 1993 Bombay blasts.

This Indian thinking is laughable. GOI has been perfect at many times, 71, Operation Parkaram, Operation Thunderbolt, etc. However, Indians need to understand one thing, just because you will retaliate against the paki terrorists, does not mean an end to terrorism. Before even hitting at the terrorists, are Indians themselves ready for sacrifices? Are they ready to shun products, friendship, movies depicting paki actors, shows, albums from paki artists? The best form of retaliation against Pakistan is complete containment and isolation of that country. Close down all counselates, reduce embassy staff to minimum and put Pakistan on ignore list.

Indian govt has openly defended and sided with Muslim countries that demand destruction of state of israel. India has openly welcomed and championed the cause of well known terrorist called Yasser Arafat, and yet when Kargil happened, it was Israel that provided India will precision kits for its dumb bombs.

I never knew evidence or proof is needed to protect your own citizens. When was the last time, any country in the world, including Vietnam when it entered Cambodia provided proof to world body? Who is dictating Indian policy? South Block or the West Wing?

Why arent Indian citizens demanding this simple form of peaceful protest from the Indian govt? SO YES Abhishek, it is Indian citizens, like you and I who are encouraging killing of our own countrymen.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 02 Jul 2012 02:55

^
I have more titles to suggest

Pakevil dead 4-Load Shedding
International Bhikmange

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Jul 2012 03:00

deepan gill wrote:Before even hitting at the terrorists, are Indians themselves ready for sacrifices? Are they ready to shun products ?, friendship? , movies depicting paki actors, shows, albums from paki artists ?

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 02 Jul 2012 03:11

Please tell me one instance where US has supplied a terrorist organization with weapons, training or money to encourage killing of Indians?

deepan gill ji,
examples, may be one or two to start:
Afghan Mujahideen
TSP, Taliban, Al-Qeada, remember IC814 hijack?

added later:
forgot to add David Headley

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 02 Jul 2012 03:17

deepan gill wrote:This my friend is directly encouraging terrorism in a country. Just like how Pakistan, funds, trains and supplies weapons to Islamic terrorists against India.

Thanks for doing a nice ==. If you don't understand the difference between Jaffna in 1983 and Kashmir in 1989 then you have many serious problems. This discussion can't cure them.

Please tell me one instance where US has supplied a terrorist organization with weapons, training or money to encourage killing of Indians?

Right and wrong at the same time. When US gives money/arms to an organization, it is not on their "terrorist list".

It is declared a terrorist organization only *after* US has used them. Have you heard about MEK and their American support base?

And Americans ship their weapons to groups like LeT through state actors like ISI. So yes, America might not have given weapons and money to LeT because ISI is the intermediate node. I am surprised that you are asking these questions.

I dont understand "Lahori Logic" BUT it so happens, my Nanaji came from Lahore during partition. And, as far I know, Lahori logic came to Mumbai, killed Indians, and so-called UP logic has so far been to send dossiers after dossiers. It seems there is some merit in Lahori Logic, wouldn't you agree? Afterall, they are wining right? Taking away free electricity, free goodies, now has labeled the Hindus as terrorists as well, already influenced our PM to make concessions on Siachen, so I think we should not dismiss this Lahori Logic just yet, its kicking our ass at the moment.

Do you even understand the meaning of Lahori logic?

Abhishek, read my post again, I simply said it is wrong to say that US POLICY ENCOURAGES KILLNG OF INDIANS. This is what I said, and I stand by my statement that US and people of US are far more humane and passionate to allow such policies to be conducted by their govt. Even today fully being aware that Muslims eye for US blood, US citizens still welcome muslims to their shores. Dorry buddy I have lived in US for 38 years and you this statement "US POLICY ENCOURAGES KILLNG OF INDIANS" is false.

What is happening in Gitmo these days? Why don't American citizens show their "humane" nature and ask for their release? And how do you know that Muslims are welcome in US? Can you cite numbers which would show that rate of visa approvals in UK and Pakistan are equivalent?

I never knew evidence or proof is needed to protect your own citizens. When was the last time, any country in the world, including Vietnam when it entered Cambodia provided proof to world body? Who is dictating Indian policy? South Block or the West Wing?

Why don't you think for a few minutes before asking these questions? Don't you understand that American weapons/support plays a role when India thinks about acting against Pakistan?

In any case, why would a country like America (which is full of "humane" people) destroy evidence against a terrorist group?

SO YES Abhishek, it is Indian citizens, like you and I who are encouraging killing of our own countrymen.

Yes, this is lahori logic. Like citizens of any country, Indians are not perfect. Indian politicians are certainly far from perfect. But if you believe that Americans welcome Muslims and Indians encourage killing of their country men then, as I said before, you have serious problems.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 02 Jul 2012 03:34

deepan gill wrote:
Abhishek, read my post again, I simply said it is wrong to say that US POLICY ENCOURAGES KILLNG OF INDIANS. This is what I said, and I stand by my statement that US and people of US are far more humane and passionate to allow such policies to be conducted by their govt. Even today fully being aware that Muslims eye for US blood, US citizens still welcome muslims to their shores. Dorry buddy I have lived in US for 38 years and you this statement "US POLICY ENCOURAGES KILLNG OF INDIANS" is false.

Indian govt has openly defended and sided with Muslim countries that demand destruction of state of israel. India has openly welcomed and championed the cause of well known terrorist called Yasser Arafat, and yet when Kargil happened, it was Israel that provided India will precision kits for its dumb bombs.

I never knew evidence or proof is needed to protect your own citizens. When was the last time, any country in the world, including Vietnam when it entered Cambodia provided proof to world body? Who is dictating Indian policy? South Block or the West Wing?

Why arent Indian citizens demanding this simple form of peaceful protest from the Indian govt? SO YES Abhishek, it is Indian citizens, like you and I who are encouraging killing of our own countrymen.

Deepan ji, how about you shift this discussion to Indo-US thread....?
There is a lot which can be said on your contentions with regard to US and terrorism ... iam sure by quite a few members here including me... But every thing then will be OT.

venug wrote: added later:
forgot to add David Headley

Deepan ji, actually there is a whole thread in brf on this character. I suggest you skim through it to understand US links to 26/11 and it's aftermath.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 02 Jul 2012 04:01

Charlie wrote:“We come from Central Asia, galloping on horses across those wide open grasslands,” he told me, his hands pumping imaginary reins as he gazed past me at imaginary grasslands. “We feel caged in the tiny houses you have here.”

Hmmm...this press counsellor must be related to zaid-ghazwa-e-hind-ham-eid on his abbu's side. Similar genetic traits of self-induced hallucinations. Besides, when pakis claim that their ancestors galloped away from Central Asia leaving those wide open bountiful grasslands behind, one should ask the Central Asians today if they are happy that their ancestors got rid of the mongrel riff raff back then.

Roperia · Post by **Roperia** » 02 Jul 2012 04:06

Lashkar-e-Taiba has dedicated internet team: Abu Jundal | TOI

Indian investigators are having a field day.

NEW DELHI: Syed Zabiuddin Ansari alias Abu Jundal has told his interrogators that Lashkar-e-Taiba operatives are trained in 'internet activities' and the outfit has a dedicated band of "trained and educated" boys who look after the entire gamut of online activities like sending emails, maintaining websites and using different servers in a way to show the IP addresses in the US and other western countries.

Indian agencies were aware of these facts through intelligence sources and interrogation of small-time operatives but this has been corroborated now.

Jundal also told investigators that all Lashkar recruits had to undergo a 10-12 hour exercise daily which included religious training, IED making, handling small and heavy weapons and use of communication devices.

LeT, intelligence sources said, had professionals who took classes in the use of software and internet, besides people from ISI and Pakistan army who taught use of weapons like AK series rifles, hand grenades, rockets, pistols, mortars, anti-tank mines, anti-personnel mines, anti-aircraft guns, remote control devices, explosive devices and sophisticated communication systems.

"The new recruits, several of them well educated, join these training programmes for several days. Their day starts early in the morning with religious prayers, listening to lectures, exercising, studying about weapons and how to make IEDs and later they are asked to use them. If the trainers find that a particular recruit is not concentrating, he is removed from the training programme," a source said.

Jundal has also given information about Lashkar training camps running all over Pakistan. Sources said Jundal had given names of some trainers as well.

Jundal was questioned by new Delhi Police commissioner Neeraj Kumar at the Special Cell office on Sunday afternoon. Delhi Police and IB have extracted information from Jundal about operatives in India, which officials refused to share saying 'operations were going on'.

If sources are to be believed, Jundal has also given some helpful inputs to agencies about the IISC attack in 2005 and Rampur attack in January 2008. The cops are also planning to confront him with Faheem Ansari and Sabauddin, who are in jail for the Rampur attack.

Jundal has already provided information about several ISI officers and their numbers to the agencies, apart from change of operational command base of Lashkar from Muzzafarabad to Dulai in Pakistan. In the 26/11 case, Jundal has reportedly given some new inputs about the control room, planning and execution, through which Indian agencies would be able to file a new charge sheet on Pakistan's role in the attack.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 02 Jul 2012 04:32

Pak college's editorial board dissolved over blasphemy row

Pakistan's first arts college's editorial board has been dissolved and two other departments have been closed, weeks after the institution's annual journal was accused of publishing material that supported homosexuality and ridiculed Islamic values.

The architecture and research and publication departments of the National College of Arts in Lahore have been closed while the director for research and publication, Sarosh Irfani, has been suspended.

The principal of the NCA, Sajjad Kausar, and some other staff are facing charges of blasphemy, official sources said.

Vivek_A · Post by **Vivek_A** » 02 Jul 2012 06:38

Roperia wrote: Highly placed sources in the government said India issued an identity certificate to the Saudi authorities for Fasih last week after Pakistani agencies too laid claim by stating that Fasih had a valid Pakistani passport. Pakistani agencies had made a similar claim for Jundal.

Sources said US pressure helped in swinging the case in India's favour.

Surely that can't be true. It run against everything abhishek read about a US conspiracy in a newspaper.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 02 Jul 2012 06:43

You know these childish posts might work somewhere else. As far as this forum is concerned, it is expected that people can *read* and *understand* simple sentences. You should join the deaf and dumb forum.

In particular, can you point out where I said that it is a "US conspiracy"? If not, then you are lying. How sad.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Jul 2012 07:00

Raja Bose wrote:India should apologize for sending Surjeet Singh to spy: Rehman Malik

Pakistanis release a guy who openly admits he was a RAW agent while on BRF Pakistan's release after switching Sarabjit with Surjit was praised by at least one person as a deft reaction of a competent Pakistani team working in unison that wrong footed India.

If i was not Indian, I would find Indians and Pakistanis equally funny.

archan · Post by **archan** » 02 Jul 2012 07:08

Abhishek and others, relax. Heed to what Lilo said and take it elsewhere. Get rid of the unfriendly tone though. Thanks.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Jul 2012 07:10

As he expanded on this theme, contrasting how Pakistanis bought oranges in baskets of a hundred, rather than the half dozen oranges that an Indian would buy, I dismissed him as a crank who had served too long in a difficult posting. But within Pakistan, and especially amongst the policymaking elite, I soon encountered similar views: the embrace of Afghan, Persian, Central Asian or pan-Islamic identities to repudiate any shameful linkages with the unwashed masses of India. Historical connections with India, it would appear, existed only through the pre-British, Muslim ruling class.

No, these are not views held only by a few. In his book on Mohajirs, Brig. A.R.Siddiqui who later retired as the ISPR Chief and himself a mohajir, writes that they had been given a vivid description of honey and milk flowing in nascent Pakistan with Muslim flags gently waving in the cool breeeze etc. Delhi was described as merely a place for tombs. He writes that he was disappointed to note that these were all false and the migrants were derisively referred to everywhere within Pakistan etc. These are in the same genre as the description of jannat by that very learned Maulvi posted in the previous page.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Jul 2012 07:11

deepan gill wrote:Once I reached US, I myself attended these so-called terrorist camps in US where Khalistanis were trained. And by god anyone can join, just pay $25, buy the ammo and there you go, you are shooting off a 9MM or AK-47. You can find these places in pennsylvania and other states.

Now if you are a die-hard, then for couple of hundred bucks you can join a survival camp and learn to live off the land and participate is military style simulation with paintball guns. I hardly call this a terrorist camp, you get more training when playing call of duty.

Now how has US policy encouraged killing of Indians? Since when did US policy become dependent of Indian approval? In a far-reaching calculation yes this statement is thought provoking, but there is always another side to a story. US had its aims, Pakistan was willing to assist, US gave Pakistani what it needed, Pakistan used it against India, US sent dossiers to Pakistan, asking them to stop their naughty behaviour, and US kept its bigger objectives clear, destruction of evil empire.

Pakistan too has terrorist training camps. People can join those camps without paying the $25 or $100. There is nothing wrong with having such camps training people to kill. So long as they don't kill Indians. In India people cannot attend such camps, with or without payment. Pakistan is more like America. There is freedom for people to learn weapon use and commando skills.

I admire America and Pakistan for having what india does not have. The US knew that people who trained in such camps in the US (such as yourself) were all right as long as they did not attack the US. Pakistanis know that people who train in Pakistani camps are fine and dandy as long as they don't attack Pakistan. As for me personally - I really don't care if people in Paki camps attack Americans or if people from American camps attack Pakistan as long as neither attack India. It's only when people from BOTH American and Pakistan camps end up attacking India that India has a genuine reason to whine and complain.