Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Asha

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Sanku
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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby Sanku » 23 Jan 2013 12:04

Okay this from NDTV, but this time line appears to be most honest and accurate based on what even we on BRF had pieced together from the FUD.

Read it all, posting in full.

Blog: The LoC incident - The back story

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/blog- ... ory-320851

The recent incidents on the Line of Control between Indian and Pakistani army troops has predictably generated a lot of heat and has taken up oodles of air and print space in the media on both sides of the border.

It is a familiar pattern. An incident takes place, it gets reported. The other side reacts. There is a counter-reaction. Allegations are made. Counter-allegations are flung. TV news studios get busy with retired diplomats and generals on either side getting their 15 seconds of fame. So what's new?

As someone who was involved from day one in not only reporting the incident but also monitoring the subsequent developments, it is important for me to recall the facts, the chain of events and the reaction of all stake-holders (a term I recently came across at a South Asia 2020 Conference) during the entire episode lest fiction as conceived by different players gets accepted as the absolute truth.

To begin at the beginning.

Sunday January 6, 9.39 am:

My colleague Zaffar Iqbal sends an email to me and the NDTV Newsdesk which reads: "Ceasefire violation in Uri sector of Kashmir. Pakistan army resorted to unprovoked firing on Indian posts near village Churunda close to LoC. Pakistan fired mortar shells and illumination shots. Many shells landed close to the village. Panic has gripped the villagers who fear casualties and damage to property. Firing started at 3.30 am and possibly to help infiltration. Alert troops retaliated and forced Pakistani troops to stop firing."

The newsdesk asks me for more details which are difficult to come by in the initial hours. But Army's Public Information setup in Delhi confirms Zaffar's inputs around 11.30.

In the overall news rundown, the incident finds a routine mention.

Monday January 7:

Zaffar sends photographs of damage to villagers' houses in Churunda village because of the cross-border firing.

Tuesday January 8, 1.15 pm or thereabouts:

On my Facebook page and twitter timeline, queries start appearing: Have you heard of beheading of one of the two soldiers killed?

By 2 pm I am bombarded by faujis, fauji wives and others with information that one soldier is indeed beheaded. They were incredulous why I and other mainstream media guys were fighting shy of mentioning the barbaric act.

3 pm: Northern Command PRO, Lt. Col Rajesh Kalia continues to maintain that 2 soldiers have been killed and he has no more information at that point.

4 pm: Zaffar calls up and sends a mail saying he is pretty sure of the beheading but no one in the Army was reachable.

I again call up the usual contacts in Northern Command, the Army HQ and whoever I can reach in the fauj but no confirmation yet.

I and Zaffar in any case go on air saying two soldiers have indeed been killed after a suspected cross-border raid, their weapons snatched.

6.30 pm:

Finally, a senior officer at the Army HQ reluctantly admits that one body is mutilated without confirming if it was beheaded. So we stick to 'mutilation,' in absence of official admission.

6.30 to 8 pm:

Classic reporter's dilemma continues to dog us: Despite being aware of what had happened, lack of official confirmation means I am only circling around the fact by saying we have heard of this but no confirmation officially!

8.05 pm: A senior officer in Northern Command finally confirms beheading. That's the time we go on air confirming beheading as fact!

Wednesday, January 9:

The Hindu's Praveen Swami reports of a grandmother's crossing the LoC and an aggressive commander on the LoC having sparked off the latest confrontation.

8 am: I call up the commander in question and ask him, half in jest: "So you have riled the Pakistanis so much." He laughs and says: "I wish I had that kind of power. In any case, I was on leave till yesterday (8th January)." We exchange further notes.

Zaffar in the meantime has reached Rajouri and is outside the Military Hospital there. The autopsy of the two killed soldiers is being carried out there.

At 11.45 am, Brigadier JK Tiwari, the No. 2 man in the 25 Infantry Division (which guards the LoC at Mendhar and Poonch among other places) goes on record, on camera to confirm the beheading.

1.58 pm: Zaffar says bodies flown out to Delhi.

2.20 pm: We are told in the Defence Ministry the bodies are going to Agra since easier to send one to Mathura (Hemraj's).

5 pm: Defence Ministry issues clarification on a couple of stories, including The Hindu's.

Prime Time: Most TV Channels discuss the incident. Some project this as an act of war.

Thursday, January 10:

5 pm: Zaffar says from Poonch cross-LoC trade halted. But trade is normal at Uri!

7.30 pm: Zaffar reprts fresh firing in Poonch, Mendhar etc.

Post-8.30 pm: Lance Naik Hemraj's cremation takes place.

Friday, January 11:

Occasional exchange of firing from both sides. Zaffar hangs on around the Poonch area. India asks for a flag meeting. Pakistan hasn't responded.

Saturday, 12 January:

Air Chief, ACM, NAK 'Charlie" Browne is visiting the NCC Cadets' camp in New Delhi. Reporters confront him there. As Chairman Chiefs of Staff Committee, he is forceful and candid, without sounding like a war monger.

"We have a Line of Control, we have a ceasefire agreement, we have certain structures and mechanisms which are sacrosanct and any violation of these with impunity especially what has been happening in the last few months is totally unacceptable.

"We are monitoring the situation carefully because if these things continue to be the way they are and these violations continue to take place, then perhaps we may have to look at some other options for compliance," he says.

7 pm: Zaffar says an infiltration attempt foiled at Mendhar.

The Air Chief's statement sets off another round of heated and in many cases hysterical discussions on TV programmes.

Sunday, 13 January:

Relatively quiet day.

Monday, January 14:

Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh in the course of his annual Press Conference gives out the details and warns Pakistan. Says I expect my commanders on LoC to be aggressive and offensive.

He also admits that in July 2011 a similar incident of beheading of 2 soldiers from 20 Kumaon Battalion had taken place but denies Army had tried to suppress it.

(Technically Gen Bikram Singh was right since our own reporter in Uttarakhand, Dinesh Mansera had reported about the matter but only in an oblique manner since apparently at that time the family did not want this to come out. Whether the Army prevailed over the family not to speak about it or they did not want to let this fact come out because of some other reason is not yet clear).

At that time, some of us who came to know of the incident almost 10 days after it had happened could not pursue it since neither the Army nor the family would confirm it.

Later, there were unconfirmed and unsubstantiated reports about the Pakistani government having lodged a protest against beheading of three of their soldiers. But in my limited capacity of research, I have not come across any official report about this in 2011 in either Indian or Pakistani media.

The gossip is however persistent and continues to this day.


Last Saturday (19th January, 2013) however wife of one of the Kumaoni soldiers has told my colleague Dinesh Mansera: "hemraj ke sath jo hua wo hamare sath bhi hua per hamen sarkar ne sammaan nahi diya(what happened with Hemraj also happened with us)"

At the moment it is not clear how this seemingly new development is being tackled by the Army.

But to get back to the recent LoC incident.

The Army Chief's tough language was expected after the Air Chief had set the ball rolling.

The MEA in the meantime was trying to downplay the incident through "safe" and conciliatory statements.

Tuesday, 15 January:

Forenoon: Northern Army Commander Lt. Gen KT Parnaik holds his traditional press conference at Akhnoor after taking salute at the Army Day parade and reiterates the tough message that India reserved the right to retaliate at the place and time of its own choosing.

Later in the evening, he gives a lengthy interview to Times Now's Arnab Goswami and recounts in some details the entire incident.

Post-lunch: Annual Reception at Army House, 3 pm

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and his senior Cabinet colleagues arrive 10 minutes before President Pranab Mukherjee is to arrive.

My colleague Barkha Dutt is among a handful of journalists and Editors at the reception.

Seeing the Prime Minister, she walks towards him and tosses a question: How do you read the situation at the LoC?

After a pause, he replies: "It can't be business as usual."

Barkha rushes out of the Army House, starts reporting. Other reporters too gherao the PM and get the same response.


External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid holds a hurriedly convened press conference a couple of hours later and says: "It should not be felt that the brazen denial and a lack of proper response from the government of Pakistan to our repeated demarches on this incident will be ignored and that bilateral relations could be unaffected or that there will be 'business as usual'.

Indian political leadership has finally in sync with the military's stand!

That night fresh exchange of firing happens, one Pakistani soldier is apparently killed.

Wednesday, January 16:

10 am: Pakistan Army Director General of Military Operations (DGMO) calls up his Indian counterpart and protests over the killing but more importantly the Pakistani officer says orders have been passed to the troops on their side of the LoC to exercise restraint and observe the ceasefire strictly. Both reached an understanding that situation should not be allowed to escalate!

So ended the latest flashpoint between India and Pakistan, at least temporarily.

Over the weekend, many write up have appeared questioning how and why the story acquired the salience it did.

My simple take is: In today's world of easy communications, nothing remains hidden.

There are no conspiracies in the way the story unfolded. Even from two years ago, situation has changed.

Soldiers possess mobile phones. Officers and their wives are on twitter timelines and Facebook pages. They talk, they gossip and they bristle in anger at the "soft" line taken by sections of the government. Details of incidents get out in flash, as they did on 6th and 8th January. No one is able to control the information flow. Mainstream Media waits for official confirmation; the social media has no such compulsion. So the mainstream media gets abused and reviled. It comes under pressure.


The responses are conditioned by this pressure.

So decisions oscillate between one extreme and the other.

It is this challenge that governments and media outlets will have to confront now.


Social media Zindabad. Internet amar rahe, people to people contact in the real sense of the word.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby Sushupti » 23 Jan 2013 12:15

Image

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby Aditya_V » 23 Jan 2013 12:57

Sanku wrote:Soldiers possess mobile phones. Officers and their wives are on twitter timelines and Facebook pages. They talk, they gossip and they bristle in anger at the "soft" line taken by sections of the government. Details of incidents get out in flash, as they did on 6th and 8th January. No one is able to control the information flow. Mainstream Media waits for official confirmation; the social media has no such compulsion. So the mainstream media gets abused and reviled. It comes under pressure.[/b]

The responses are conditioned by this pressure.

So decisions oscillate between one extreme and the other.

It is this challenge that governments and media outlets will have to confront now.

Social media Zindabad. Internet amar rahe, people to people contact in the real sense of the word.


A simple questions, In the year 2002 and year 2008 did the mainstream media wait for official confirmation or have they responded to errors in reporting on

a) the apparent ripping of hundreds of Feotuses in Gujarat

b) the rape of a nun in Orissa

Pakistani and Indian media have made many accusation which are not correct. Have they apologized?? Many Pakistani Media said that there not a single Pakistani soldier in Kargil Intrusion?

Why special treatment to Pakistan????

Lies, Damn lies and more lies.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby lakshmikanth » 23 Jan 2013 13:08

SSji,

You have always been very balanced and objective unlike lesser mortals (like myself) in this forum. When you start hitting the panic button and get emotional I wonder what us lesser mortals should feel.

It does feel almost surreal, the emperor has no clothes. He knew it always. We also knew it (at least among the people who called bull$hit on Chanakiyan CTs on each red line that kept getting crossed by GOI and the Bakis) . He knows now that we know, and he does not give a flying fug about it.

I think there are two things that influence his babugiri: (1) Pain (which Madame ji can give) (2) Pleasure (which Unkil can give). That about sums up any motives that the man might have.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby sum » 23 Jan 2013 13:45

SSji,

You have always been very balanced and objective unlike lesser mortals (like myself) in this forum. When you start hitting the panic button and get emotional I wonder what us lesser mortals should feel.

^^^+1

The state of depression regarding the future of this country under UPA-2/3/4 i was in till now is now into a full-blown freefall mode after seeing even stalwarts and optmists like SS-ji virtually throwing in the towel!! :eek: :shock:

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby Sanku » 23 Jan 2013 14:19

Aditya_V wrote:
Sanku wrote:It is this challenge that governments and media outlets will have to confront now.

Social media Zindabad. Internet amar rahe, people to people contact in the real sense of the word.


Lies, Damn lies and more lies.


That is exactly what the NDTV chap is lamenting you see, social media is now a challenge to their lying sold out ways. In the era of Radia tape leaks and such, no longer can they control the discourse and manufacture consent.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby negi » 23 Jan 2013 14:24

SSridhar wrote:On anther point, why do Indians marry Pakistanis, of all people, especially children of top officers of the Indian armed forces ? There is certainly security risk through such marriages, even if only inadvertently. Is this a form of 'love jihad' ? Anyway, that is OT here.

May be it's a new route to Padma awards and other high society tables.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jan 2013 15:14

SSridhar wrote:As I said before, IA's reaction (after countless provocations), if at all, is being touted as the moral equivalence. What these anti-nationals are saying is that it is all right for the PA to do the beheading but India cannot retaliate in anger and pay Pakistan back in the same coin.

They are citing each other conveniently and it is a circular argument they are putting forth.

The IA should identify these desh drohis and should not allow them access to its briefings or facilities at all in future because they twist the information for their own needs.

Perhaps BRF can help the Indian Army prepare such a list of Anti-national & Info-twisting Journalists. Perhaps two Threads can be created in the Military Forum - one a Monitor Thread containing all the background info on these journalists and how they twist and write anti-national pieces, and a second sticky thread, editable only by the moderators, with the names of these people and perhaps relevant links to analysis on them in the other thread, just to keep everything simple.

Or one can create some PDF updated regularly for download, which contains the names of all these unwanted elements.

In fact these journalists should not be allowed into sensitive areas in India at all, nor should one give them any interviews or access to any facilities or appear on their panels, and when their crew does go into sensitive areas, ensure that they are held up at checkpoints for inordinately long times, or that the tires of their vans are punctured regularly or their equipment gets stolen, or something of the kind. No need for discourtesy or overt harassment, but boycott and obstruction of these journalists would be useful.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jan 2013 15:24

Prasad wrote:So MMS squealed only when the army chief told nuh-uh ?
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investig ... his-stance


Army sources are angry at the rumours — "deliberately spread by those seeking to get Pakistan off the hook by equating India with its neighbour" — about Indian troops too engaging in acts such as mutilation of bodies. These sources say that "to the Indian jawans, a dead soldier from the other side is no longer an enemy, but someone in uniform who needs to be respected". They point out that even during Kargil, "the bodies of dead Pakistani soldiers were treated with respect and buried in accordance with religious rites". This is "despite the savage mutilation of Lt Saurabh Kalia by Pakistan forces". Incidentally, even during the 1971 Bangladesh War, a Major Paul was subjected to the same barbaric treatment by the Pakistani troops. Army sources were amused at Pervez Musharraf's comment that "why would Pakistan forces return (mutilated) bodies" if they had committed such acts, pointing out that returning such bodies "has been a standard part of the psywar arsenal of Pakistan forces against India".


In a way this attitude is indeed ennobling.

But it fails to strike fear deep in the hearts of the Paki Jihadis, for the possessed with the spirit of Jihad do not care that they die, but they care a lot what happens to their bodies. If the Indian forces cannot create a deterrence based on that what truly scares the Jihadis, then the Indian Army, though noble, is overlooking a major disincentive for Jihad against them and against India.

The number of Jihadis one can deter with a "less respectful" attitude towards their dead bodies could be perhaps larger than what the Indian Army can kill. So this needs to be reevaluated keeping in mind the psywar.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby member_22872 » 23 Jan 2013 17:05

On anther point, why do Indians marry Pakistanis, of all people, especially children of top officers of the Indian armed forces ?



SS garu,
Looking at the way things are being handled in favour of TSP, it makes me think, choosing Bikram Singh as army chief could have been intentional? may be he wanted someone at least shares his brotherly love for his motherland/umma-land TSP? sounds CT but looking at how MMS is working I feel this couldn't be ruled out.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby member_23629 » 23 Jan 2013 17:32

The number of Jihadis one can deter with a "less respectful" attitude towards their dead bodies could be perhaps larger than what the Indian Army can kill. So this needs to be reevaluated keeping in mind the psywar.


Monotheists are obsessed with the preservation of their dead bodies as the dudes will be resurrected on the Judgement Day. I have always thought that the best way to deter Jihadis is to burn their bodies and "immerse" the ashes in the gutter.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby johneeG » 23 Jan 2013 17:51

RajeshA wrote:
Prasad wrote:So MMS squealed only when the army chief told nuh-uh ?
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/investig ... his-stance


Army sources are angry at the rumours — "deliberately spread by those seeking to get Pakistan off the hook by equating India with its neighbour" — about Indian troops too engaging in acts such as mutilation of bodies. These sources say that "to the Indian jawans, a dead soldier from the other side is no longer an enemy, but someone in uniform who needs to be respected". They point out that even during Kargil, "the bodies of dead Pakistani soldiers were treated with respect and buried in accordance with religious rites". This is "despite the savage mutilation of Lt Saurabh Kalia by Pakistan forces". Incidentally, even during the 1971 Bangladesh War, a Major Paul was subjected to the same barbaric treatment by the Pakistani troops. Army sources were amused at Pervez Musharraf's comment that "why would Pakistan forces return (mutilated) bodies" if they had committed such acts, pointing out that returning such bodies "has been a standard part of the psywar arsenal of Pakistan forces against India".


In a way this attitude is indeed ennobling.

But it fails to strike fear deep in the hearts of the Paki Jihadis, for the possessed with the spirit of Jihad do not care that they die, but they care a lot what happens to their bodies. If the Indian forces cannot create a deterrence based on that what truly scares the Jihadis, then the Indian Army, though noble, is overlooking a major disincentive for Jihad against them and against India.

The number of Jihadis one can deter with a "less respectful" attitude towards their dead bodies could be perhaps larger than what the Indian Army can kill. So this needs to be reevaluated keeping in mind the psywar.


Saar ji,
this takes us to the root of the issue: discrediting the ideology.

Killing the foot-soldiers does not win the war. To win the war, one has to take out the leaders and discredit the ideology that empowers them.

Discrediting the ideology has a mighty impact, not just on foot-soldiers or leaders of this generation, but across generations. It is for this reason that Islam or X-ianity went after the temples of Hindus. And then used the bricks of the temples to build their monuments. It was to discredit Hinduism in the eyes of Hindus. It was for this reason that holiest of holy temples of Hindus were attacked and destroyed. It was not just about looting money or killing infidels. It had one more angle: to 'expose' Hindu Gods as weak who could not protect their own Temples. To show that those who looted the temples can prosper.

It is to make the people lose faith. Once the people lose faith in their ideology and leadership, they are ready to defect. This can turn the tide in war.

When viewed from this angle, Bharat's 'magnanimity' is interpreted by the jihadis and EJs as a weakness induced by their godling. In their eyes, the behaviour of their opponents validates their ideology.

The jihadi leader would say to his followers,"Look, even if you are martyred, you will go to heaven. It is the will of our god. That will is manifest in the very actions of our enemy. Our great god makes our foolish enemies think they are being magnanimous, when they can be ruthless. Our god induces such weaknesses in our enemy. What more evidence do you need that our god is watching us and will reward us with heaven or victory?"

It makes sense to the jihadi follower. The same conversation takes place in an EJ setup with some minor variations.

But, if jihadis or EJs were replied to in their own coin, then they would feel the heat. And if their ideologies are being discredited by targeted action, then they would lose faith. As long as they think that the ideology is valid, they will keep getting recruits, regardless of how many foot-soldiers are killed. Winning war by killing foot-soldiers is, perhaps, the most costly method(in terms of resources and time apart from causalities).

The more effective method is to go after leaders and ideology. If ideology survives, then it can create future leaders. But, if the ideology itself is destroyed, then the problem is solved. Na rahega bhaas, na bajegi bhasuri.

How to destroy the ideology?
By going after the icons, attires, languages, history, monuments, symbols and leaders of the ideology. By destroying these icons. By criticizing them. By denigrating them. By encouraging everyone to do the same. By punishing those who defend the ideology. If that cannot be done, then by ridiculing those who defend the ideology.

johneeG wrote:Let us say pakis are given a choice:
a) ideology: they can have ideology, but they will be enslaved, starved and dishonoured. Their women folk would be used as sexual playthings. Their children will not be spared. And they have to beg to eat. If they revolt against this system, they will be killed.
b) change ideology: they can change the ideology and live happily ever after.

What will be the choice of pakis be?
-Since pakis are heavily radicalised, let us say that about 10% would keep their ideology and fight and get killed.
-Let us say 25% pakis choose ideology and wallow in slavery.
-The rest of 65% will be ready to change their ideology.
-The descendents of those 25% pakis would face the same choice again. Atleast some of them will change their ideology.

This algorithm can keep running until all pakis change ideology.

So, theoritically, it is definitely possible for pakis to change their ideology. But for that they need to be given a stark choice...


johneeG wrote:Middle class and elites in developing nations are funny. They are the most vocal ones, but they are also the ones who will migrate to 'better' places at first chance. In a failed country like pakistan, this tendency would be amplified. So, while the middle classes and the elites may back the PA in any confrontation with amirkhan(or kafirs) out of 'patriotism'(or loyalty to religion), but they are also the ones who would lap up the oppurtunity to escape from the mess named pakistan.

Bottom of the pyramid can always be bought with money and material.


IMHO, the poor masses can be sanitised once the groups that lead are neutralised.

For the groups that lead, carrot and stick are the methods. As long as they stick with ideology, they must get stick and carrot of power sharing can be reserved for those who abandon the ideology. This will be the challenging part.

The masses are malleable. Sustained propaganda through media, social outlets, popular culture, and education syllabi the masses can be sanitised. For the masses, roti, kapada and makan will eventually take precedence over the ideology especially in the light of propaganda.

In pak, the groups that set the agenda are army, land-owning uber elites, and madrasas. These are the groups that deserve lots of lathi. Those who give up the ideology in this group can be used in pr blitz. But total rejection of the ideology is an absolute pre-condition.

Middle classes can be treated as part of masses.


johneeG wrote:If one can establish the dominance on ground and be ready to use force, then the major centres and lead groups of the ideology can be neutralised in 10 yrs. The ideology would be defanged.

From then on, the masses can be indoctrinated via all media. It will take just 15 years to see the difference. Some remnants of ideology will remain. They will be cleansed in course of time. Unless, this system is broken, the ideology will be dead and burned.

The use of force is critical. And not allowing any lead group to survive while they have not given up their ideology is essential.

What one should not do is half-hearted use of force. It is akin to throwing a stones at a beehive. Inadequate use of force will only strengthen the ideology. An eg: US WOT...so far.

When first phase of force is used, they will defend very hard. At the second phase, they will defend harder. In the third phase, they will ponder whether its worth it. In the fourth, desertions from the ideology will start. In the fifth, the flood gates of desertions will open.


johneeG wrote:I find it hard to believe that an ideology(or the organisation) can be defeated by allowing it to take over the state. Perhaps, the idea is ideological anti-incumbency. But I am not sure. I tend to think that once in power, the ideology(or organisation) has various tools to perpetuate and monopolise.

It seems to me that a non-ideological entity's direct intervention is a must to overthrow the ideology. If an internal revolution against the ideology is the goal, even then a non-ideological entity's subtle intervention to nurture a group that can revolt against the ideology is needed.



johneeG wrote:I agree. The complete ideological take over of the state will 'threaten' the non-ideological entities, and they would prepare to annihilate the ideology by direct or indirect intervention. So, eventually, intervention is necessary.

However, I dont agree with the idea that ideological takeover of state, devoid of non-ideological entity's intervention, in itself will destroy the ideology. To me, intervention seems the only way to end the ideology. So, whatever provokes such intervention is welcome.


johneeG wrote:Attacking(verbally or/and physically) the symbols, figures, beliefs, places, monuments, personalities and icons is an easy way to discredit an ideology in the eyes of its followers. This is a commonly practiced tactic.

If it is a closed ideology with crude concepts then the tactic is more effective. Even otherwise, the tactic works fairly well.



EDIT: If one takes note, all these tactics are being employed on Hindus and Hindu icons, even today. The attack on Swami Vivekananda, as too masculine, or trying to connect 'Hindus' or 'Saffron' with terrorism while ignoring the real source of terrorism....etc. All these should not be seen in isolation as one off incidents. Its a pattern that has continued which shows that the aim of these efforts is to take out Hinduism.
Last edited by johneeG on 23 Jan 2013 18:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jan 2013 17:59

johneeG ji,

I agree with you more than you may think, but then we would be talking about permanent solutions and not just attitudinal change on the LoC.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby SSridhar » 23 Jan 2013 18:34

venug wrote:
On anther point, why do Indians marry Pakistanis, of all people, especially children of top officers of the Indian armed forces ?



SS garu,
Looking at the way things are being handled in favour of TSP, it makes me think, choosing Bikram Singh as army chief could have been intentional? may be he wanted someone at least shares his brotherly love for his motherland/umma-land TSP? sounds CT but looking at how MMS is working I feel this couldn't be ruled out.

venug, CTs apart, it is something like the son/daughter of Isareli Army marrying into the family of the Hamas chief or a US General's kid marrying into Osama's family.

It gives rise to various speculations. People may say the Chief did not react because he would feel embarrassed. There is always a possibility of an espionage angle etc. These are genuine concerns. of course the good General has probably no control over the choices made by his offspring. It nevertheless cannot stop valid concerns. Caesar's wife . . .

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby Sagar G » 23 Jan 2013 19:13

When it comes to foreign policy, Dr. Singh has jealously guarded Prime Ministerial turf and defended the national interest.


The pure BS that congressie dogs can dole out is amazing.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby sum » 23 Jan 2013 19:27

We seem to be overflowing with lots of high-powered useful idiots, it seems:

Firing, Mindsets, Reform

By B.G. Verghese


The article starts off fine and nails TSP:

The hubbub over the recent cross-LOC firings appears to be subsiding following some deft handling by the Government of India in the face of an ill-considered clamour for immediate retaliation. There are two national versions of what triggered the action. There is substance in Delhi’s view that Pakistan once again resorted to covering fire to aid cross-border jihadi infiltration into J&K. Be that as it may, the fact is that two patrolling jawans were killed on the Indian side of the LOC by Pakistan fire and left mutilated, with one corpse beheaded. This is utterly barbaric conduct and violative of the rules of war and theGeneva Convention. It is the bland refusal by Pakistan to acknowledge and investigate this outrage that inflamed Indian opinion, with strong demands for a retaliatory strike.



Pakistan’s trump card has been to ask how its troops orjihadis could cut through India’s electrified barbed wire fence along the LOC and then penetrate further into Indian territory to ambush Indian patrols and plant the Pak Ordnance Factory mines found buried there. The answer is that both sides are mutually bound by CFL-LOC protocols to refrain from constructing any structures or defences within 500 m of the LOC. Why this simple explanation was not made widely known once again betrays a continuing communications failure on India’s part. Even the Pak Foreign Minister, Ms Khar, silenced Indian interlocutors with this untenable retort.

The latest LOC spat also saw Pakistan bluster as usualwhen caught with its hand in the till and, when cornered, cynically plead that it would be best to forget the past and move on. The ISI’s sponsorship ofseparatist militancy and cross-borderjihadi terrorism in J&K is no secret. That this trend saw a rise in 2012betrays the growing dichotomy between those in Pakistan who feel that the only way to prevent the country from self-destruction is to come to terms with India, hitherto seen as a permanent enemy, and others who think that the US withdrawal from Afghanistan by the end of 2014 could see a turnaround in favour of jihadi warriors out to punish India. The Pakistan establishment seems split on this issue and hence the many contrary voices and doublespeak emanating from Islamabad.



But then some unbelievable connections made, which seem to be a Indian WKK speciality:

This sort of imbecility points to the need for political parties and media houses to train defence spokespersons to comment on such sensitive issues. It also reinforces the need for a regulatory framework for the media, which most democracies have instituted or refined. Freedom cannot mean licence. At the same time we must not shut our eyes to rising faith-based revivalism manifesting itself in denigration of other faiths and by concocting history, Pakistan style, in furtherance of Hindu, Muslim, Sikh and other right-wing chauvinism by fundamentalists of all hues. The latest exposure of the saffronisation of school texts in Karnataka and opposition to the naming of a new Central University after Tipu Sultan in Srirangapatanamare only the latest examples that cut across faiths and parties within the edifice of India’s hollowing secularism. We must beware the rise of a new divisiveness under the banner of not a two but a five-nation theory that the State is allowing to take root or even fostering. :-? :roll:


I honestly have lost all hope of our country going anywhere but downwards in coming days!

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby svenkat » 23 Jan 2013 19:50

OT:The mallu christist left out christist anti-nationalism in different parts of India.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby SSridhar » 23 Jan 2013 19:50

sum wrote:We seem to be overflowing with lots of high-powered useful idiots, it seems:

Firing, Mindsets, Reform

By B.G. Verghese

BG Verghese has always been like that. His rantings betray his blighted mind when he professes to be 'secular' but trains his guns only on the Hindus. Since their agenda is well known, we cannot expect anything better from them.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby habal » 23 Jan 2013 19:57

It is the same sort of arguments as made by a Jehadi in RAPE costume, or Kurshit-Owaisi type only in another direction. The mentality is the same though. They have no gratitude towards the freedom they already enjoy, which they feel is the result of weak Indic status-quo and they desire to keep it the same way, but at the same time wish to be in dominant position wrt the dharmic Indics, and all his comments are with a view to enhance that disproportionate influence paradigm that is enjoyed by minorities of various hues.

So now basically the churning has clearly bought out two distinct groups. I say one must welcome these type of reviews and articles which can bring out the real fifth columnists in India. Let them come.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jan 2013 20:04

Did GoI really have to appoint two utterly anti-national elements like Salman Khurshid and Sushilkumar Shinde to man the MEA and Home Ministry?

Was there such a paucity in India of two acceptable slavish minded chamchas of Viceroy Sonia Gandhi and Viceroy-in-Waiting Rahul Gandhi, that the only two found were not just chamchas but openly anti-national elements!

How far lower can this government of Viceroy Sonia Gandhi, the Local Manager of Phoren Sarkars, and her Deputy, Deputy-Viceroy Manmohan Singh fall!

For this Government, it seems they manage to find more depth every week!

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby member_22872 » 23 Jan 2013 20:17

Nothing is accidental, everything is deliberate. No move in chess and politics is per chance.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby habal » 23 Jan 2013 20:32

RajeshA wrote:Did GoI really have to appoint two utterly anti-national elements like Salman Khurshid and Sushilkumar Shinde to man the MEA and Home Ministry?


You do not understand their constituency. They do not have a constituency apart from Italian job. Total submission is essential and demanded for any critical post. The more the Italian gets insecure, the more the servility demanded. Khurshit and Shunde are result of extreme satisfaction of that demand.

Why didn't opposition parties announce a legislation that would invalidate foreign-origin individuals from holding any top posts like leader of opposition or Chairman of ruling alliance.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby sanjeevpunj » 23 Jan 2013 20:56

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_too-early-to-normalise-relations-with-pakistan-antony_1791969

Antony says "too early about normalising the relations. We have to wait and watch and assess the ground situation and other factors. Regarding the future course of action and relations in the future, we will not take a hasty decision."

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby johneeG » 23 Jan 2013 20:58

venug wrote:Nothing is accidental, everything is deliberate. No move in chess and politics is per chance.


+108. Very apt comparison between politics(including war) and chess. Yep, the moves of this regime are not accidental. The moves of pakis and amirkhans(and rest of the west) are not accidental.

And it is not accidental or co-incidental that all of them are broadly in agreement. There is no need for any convoluted interpretations to make these people seem 'chanakian'. Their moves are plain and straight-forward. They are working in unison(except disagreements on some details).

Also, one must realize that this is bigger than few individuals. MMS is part of it. Kurshit is part of it. Shande is part of it. But, it is not limited to these. Remember, Raul's uvacha? WikiLeaks cables: Rahul Gandhi warned US of Hindu extremist threat

Strictly speaking, it is not even limited to the dynasty. Dynasty, itself, is simply a running dog of imperial west.

One can see a clear pattern in 'south-asia': Undermine all things Hindu and support all things anti-Hindu(desi and videsi).

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby sanjeevpunj » 23 Jan 2013 21:08

^^^I agree. India, through the offices of Dr MMS and his exalted Dynasty is conforming to US expectations.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2013 21:42

sanjeevpunj wrote:http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_too-early-to-normalise-relations-with-pakistan-antony_1791969

Antony says "too early about normalising the relations. We have to wait and watch and assess the ground situation and other factors. Regarding the future course of action and relations in the future, we will not take a hasty decision."



In other words do nothing! BTW he has finally found his tongue to speak after two weeks of silence after the atrocity.
He is Minister of Insecurity.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby Rudradev » 23 Jan 2013 21:50

ramana wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote:http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_too-early-to-normalise-relations-with-pakistan-antony_1791969

Antony says "too early about normalising the relations. We have to wait and watch and assess the ground situation and other factors. Regarding the future course of action and relations in the future, we will not take a hasty decision."



In other words do nothing! BTW he has finally found his tongue to speak after two weeks of silence after the atrocity.
He is Minister of Insecurity.


Ramana, see, this is the problem I have with the theory that only the PM is a US-stooge/pro-Paki while Sonia Maino and others of the INC core are less pro-Paki. Even the supposed hawks like Antony come out with this shabby, anemic, belated response at best... finally finding their tongue many weeks after the incident. Who are they scared of, that it takes them so long? MMS? No, I think they're scared of greater authorities than MMS, i.e. Maino and the others of INC core themselves. The entire INC leadership is equally anti-India and equally a stooge of the US.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2013 21:55

RajeshA wrote:
SSridhar wrote:As I said before, IA's reaction (after countless provocations), if at all, is being touted as the moral equivalence. What these anti-nationals are saying is that it is all right for the PA to do the beheading but India cannot retaliate in anger and pay Pakistan back in the same coin.

They are citing each other conveniently and it is a circular argument they are putting forth.

The IA should identify these desh drohis and should not allow them access to its briefings or facilities at all in future because they twist the information for their own needs.

Perhaps BRF can help the Indian Army prepare such a list of Anti-national & Info-twisting Journalists. Perhaps two Threads can be created in the Military Forum - one a Monitor Thread containing all the background info on these journalists and how they twist and write anti-national pieces, and a second sticky thread, editable only by the moderators, with the names of these people and perhaps relevant links to analysis on them in the other thread, just to keep everything simple.

Or one can create some PDF updated regularly for download, which contains the names of all these unwanted elements.

In fact these journalists should not be allowed into sensitive areas in India at all, nor should one give them any interviews or access to any facilities or appear on their panels, and when their crew does go into sensitive areas, ensure that they are held up at checkpoints for inordinately long times, or that the tires of their vans are punctured regularly or their equipment gets stolen, or something of the kind. No need for discourtesy or overt harassment, but boycott and obstruction of these journalists would be useful.



RajeshA, While agreeeing with the sense of outrage and the disgust, I cannot endorse BRF being used as Madame Defarge* sort of list compilation medium. Please do not propogate such ideas on BRF.

THanks, ramana

*For those who need to know: Madama Defarge is a character in "Tale of Two Cities" by Charles Dickens, who knits a list of names of French aristocrats to be gulliotened during the French Revolution.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2013 22:04

A complex picture is emerging around two weeks after the outrage. The first week a lot of spinmeisters misspoke from their auto-response minds and revealed their hand.
Some cretins are still at it as they cant stop speaking due to the massive lifafas they got from their handlers.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jan 2013 22:18

ramana wrote:RajeshA, While agreeeing with the sense of outrage and the disgust, I cannot endorse BRF being used as Madame Defarge* sort of list compilation medium. Please do not propogate such ideas on BRF.

THanks, ramana

*For those who need to know: Madama Defarge is a character in "Tale of Two Cities" by Charles Dickens, who knits a list of names of French aristocrats to be gulliotened during the French Revolution.

ramana garu,

I understand and will not suggest it any longer. But since when is a suggestion of a list for boycott (as by me here, and earlier SSridhar garu's suggestion of boycott) the same thing as a list for guillotine. There is no comparison.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby krithivas » 23 Jan 2013 22:42

I don't know if this has been addressed earlier - Like the "List of victims of Terrorists attack" it will be very useful to have a "List of fifth column" sticky thread. The thread can either name-names or just simple pointers to articles leaving the reader to deduce. At a minimum these termites need to feel challenged.
A complex picture is emerging around two weeks after the outrage. The first week a lot of spinmeisters misspoke from their auto-response minds and revealed their hand.
Some cretins are still at it as they cant stop speaking due to the massive lifafas they got from their handlers.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby Prem » 23 Jan 2013 22:56

venug wrote:
On anther point, why do Indians marry Pakistanis, of all people, especially children of top officers of the Indian armed forces ?


Wait few weeks for the news of Shinde and Saeed family get together where they bind themsleves as Kurrams with each other.OTOH, Shinde and Saeed look like brothers , one with beard and one without.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby member_23365 » 23 Jan 2013 22:58

varunkumar wrote:
The number of Jihadis one can deter with a "less respectful" attitude towards their dead bodies could be perhaps larger than what the Indian Army can kill. So this needs to be reevaluated keeping in mind the psywar.


Monotheists are obsessed with the preservation of their dead bodies as the dudes will be resurrected on the Judgement Day. I have always thought that the best way to deter Jihadis is to burn their bodies and "immerse" the ashes in the gutter.


I was thinking on same lines.
Why do we bury them in Indian soil. We can just cremate them hindu ways, may be close to LoC for bakis to see.

If peaceniks or WKK raise any voice we can put the argument since terrorists have no religion it doesn't matter what is done to their dead remains.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby Prem » 23 Jan 2013 23:19

RajeshA wrote:
ramana wrote:RajeshA, While agreeeing with the sense of outrage and the disgust, I cannot endorse BRF being used as Madame Defarge* sort of list compilation medium. Please do not propogate such ideas on BRF.THanks, ramana
*For those who need to know: Madama Defarge is a character in "Tale of Two Cities" by Charles Dickens, who knits a list of names of French aristocrats to be gulliotened during the French Revolution.

ramana garu,I understand and will not suggest it any longer. But since when is a suggestion of a list for boycott (as by me here, and earlier SSridhar garu's suggestion of boycott) the same thing as a list for guillotine. There is no comparison.


What we need is to make a list of Anti Dharmic People and anti-Dharmic policies of political dispensation.
Waise Bhi G is alien to our tradition, the apt icon can be only Gharra/Matka. When its full of sins , it will burst.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby RajeshA » 23 Jan 2013 23:21

atamjeetsingh wrote:
RajeshA wrote:The number of Jihadis one can deter with a "less respectful" attitude towards their dead bodies could be perhaps larger than what the Indian Army can kill. So this needs to be reevaluated keeping in mind the psywar.
varunkumar wrote:Monotheists are obsessed with the preservation of their dead bodies as the dudes will be resurrected on the Judgement Day. I have always thought that the best way to deter Jihadis is to burn their bodies and "immerse" the ashes in the gutter.
I was thinking on same lines.
Why do we bury them in Indian soil. We can just cremate them hindu ways, may be close to LoC for bakis to see.

If peaceniks or WKK raise any voice we can put the argument since terrorists have no religion it doesn't matter what is done to their dead remains.


Fighting Jihadism in Pakistan

The implementation of consequences on the dead body of a mujahid can be justified on the basis of a declaration that, "he was a terrorist, and we do not consider him a Muslim, for terrorists have no religion!"

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby Agnimitra » 23 Jan 2013 23:47

RajeshA and others wrote:I have always thought that the best way to deter Jihadis is to burn their bodies and "immerse" the ashes in the gutter. I was thinking on same lines.
Why do we bury them in Indian soil. We can just cremate them hindu ways, may be close to LoC for bakis to see.

If peaceniks or WKK raise any voice we can put the argument since terrorists have no religion it doesn't matter what is done to their dead remains.

Well as far as Islam is concerned, that tactic has been taken into consideration. A mujahid who dies fighting the kafir becomes a shaheed (martyr). The implications of that is that the shuhada (martyrs) do not have to go through the suspense of the life of waiting in the Grave, nor the tension of resurrection and Judgment Day. They get a straight pass to Jannat, immediately. In fact, being martyred in jihad is the only definite way of ensuring Jannat in Islamic theology. Everything else is uncertainty. So, you kafirs can do whatever you want with the dead bodies of martyred jihadis, but you can't deny them what Allah has promised.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby member_22872 » 23 Jan 2013 23:59

It might sound barbaric, but castration and making them in capable of holding a gun or a grenade is good option, more like dipping him in liquid oxygen, oxygen won't kill him, liquid won't let him live :). What use is a jehadi who can't reproduce and cant hold a gun?

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby RajeshA » 24 Jan 2013 00:07

Carl ji,

As far as I know, in Jannat the same body is reinvigorated but they don't get new bodies to enjoy the luxury. Perhaps you can give some info on that in the "Understanding Islamic Society" thread.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby Prem » 24 Jan 2013 00:41

RajeshA wrote:Carl ji,
As far as I know, in Jannat the same body is reinvigorated but they don't get new bodies to enjoy the luxury. Perhaps you can give some info on that in the "Understanding Islamic Society" thread.


The issue between them and their god in Deep Space LasVegas is not for kaffirs to worry about. Just do the necessary as it deem fit with wordly wisdom and let them sort it our over there.Porker Forker Paradise Vice in after Life is not a sweet Fife. Before you put him on Ice, Just let him know ,we will take care of his wife in this life and now she will enjoy the Shauhar Thrice as Paki Mice lost the fight moment Roullete rolled with Jihad Dice.

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Re: Beheading of Indian Soldiers in Aug 2011 and Aman ki Ash

Postby Rudradev » 24 Jan 2013 02:42

Manorama wrote:As the firing finally ended at 11:32, the sight in front froze them. Hemraj and Sudhakar lay dead and frozen in pools of blood, far away from each other. Sudhakar's head was missing; Hemraj had deep slashes on his neck, indicating a failed beheading bid. “The raiders carried the head back across the border as trophy,” an officer told THE WEEK later.
But, why the SSG? The group, headquartered at Cherat in Peshawar on the Afghan frontier, and commanded by Major-General Farrukh Bashir, has never revealed its actual strength. Its troopers have, through long association with bloodier-minded militants, acquired a few notorious non-militaristic practices, such as torturing captured enemy and dishonouring corpses, (like beheading them) which regular troopers are loath to indulge in.
.... It is believed that the SSG had been deployed around the Kargil heights in 1999 and that the patrol led by the young Captain Saurabh Kalia had fallen into their hands. Even the doughtiest soldier in India shudders at the thought of how Kalia's mauled body was returned to India.


If this is true, and the IA knows it, then the IA also knows exactly whom it has to hit in retaliation.


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