Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

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shiv
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by shiv »

Cosmo_R wrote:
"This week our friends and neighbors in the Sikh community have shown us the best way to respond is with love,” said Wisconsin Scott Walker, who was among the government officials, including Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., Sikh religious leaders and representatives of the victims’ families who spoke during the service."

Think this would have happened in Oirope or even in India? I don't recall MMS even deigning to visit Mumbai after 26/11.

Somewhere there are stats about how many ordinary Americans (and their ethnic composition) attended this wake.
:rotfl: Since you have decided to go OT and bring in MMS and 26/11, may I remind you that the spirit of forgiving Pakistanis for 26/11 by the Sikh MMS is as noble as the Sikhs of Minnesota or wherever excusing the serial killer in their Gurudwara. Thank you for bringing up the comparison. Although Obama could have done better and lost a night's sleep.

Go America. Rah Rah Rah!

I think your post is a keeper.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by ramana »

Folks you dont get it do you?
In a thread to mourn and express sympathy for the victims of the shooting, some of you want to bring in side issues and hang on to useless statements from "has been" activists!

Its like the proverbial "turd in the punch bowl" that takes away from the spirit of the thread!
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Dipanker »

ramana wrote:Folks you dont get it do you?
In a thread to mourn and express sympathy for the victims of the shooting, some of you want to bring in side issues and hang on to useless statements from "has been" activists!

Its like the proverbial "turd in the punch bowl" that takes away from the spirit of the thread!

Why not ban the Pakis showing their Pakistaniat on this thread as well as some others or at least censor their posts? It is easy to figure out these Pakis. They have all joined recently or had sleeper accounts, they only a handful of post in their name ( under 15 or so ) and most of their posts are full of Pakistaniat.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Gus »

I am at a loss here. What is it about this tragedy that brings people out of the woodwork and post with an agenda. Clearly some of these are not BRF newbies.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by CRamS »

RamanaGaru, kindly cut me some slack as I make some non mourning observations.

For those who are elated that 1000s of Americans including that clown Wisconsin governor Scott Walker for attending a memorial service, please look under the skin. Once again, based on my vast experience watching Americans, I can tell you, they can pack quite a bit a charm and PR show when the going is good. I am not being ungrateful or anything for the white mourners who showed up. But what you guys are missing is the fact that feel good condescension comes easily to whites and one should not mistake that for fairness, empathy etc. Where the true test for whites, or for that mater anyone else lies is how you deal with "others" at a peer-to-peer level or even how do you share power or how much space you are willing to cede for somebody else also to show some feel good condescension (in other words, mutual respect Vs tolerance). On this count, whites fail miserably, or else this climate of hatred and bigotry wouldn't be there in the first place. I mean its all find and dandy for me to shower love on my neighbor by taking him to the hospital after dropping a brick on him out of some other resentment, thank you very much, but should I be dropping the brick on his head in the first place?

That said, I will take my white American brothers and sisters who showed up for the mourning; but I would not even p!ss on Pakis, all and sundry, who have cheer from the sidelines and suport and dispatch pigLeTs to kill us, and then speciosuly call for aman ki tamasha. And I certainly commend my white brothers and sisters than I would Indians who by and large care two hoots about Paki murdering their own brethren if the victims are not close to them.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by CRamS »


Islamists will take full advantage and extract every benefit from this tragedy.
My thoughts exactly. Paki ISI and their PR machine will be in full swing showing profuse sympathy to Sikhs. Expect the US/UK PR slime balls to do that same. Perfect opportunity for the India haters to use this tragedy to embarass India by exploiting past mistrust between Hindus and Sikhs. And not far behind will be Indian self loathing cowards. And as always, "Hindu extremists" or "Hindu nationalists" will be the favorite punching bag, everybody can talk about alleged Hindu prejudice against Sikhs or past communal troubles or whatever.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by lakshmikanth »

^^^ CRS, totally agree (other than the last part about respecting your white brethen more than an Indian , that is gross generalization right there).

Its "ohh look at what a deranged man who lost his way did to a bunch of 'harmless' folks". Lets turn it the other way around, if a Sikh or two had gone for a rampage two things would have happened

1) The mourning would reach national level flooding out everything in the media.
2) A documentary or two on "what is wrong with the Sikh's that they are becoming mass murderers" would have appeared sooner or later (note that there is no "what is wrong with the white male that they are becoming mass murderers" documentary ever being made).

The moment a non-white challenges a boundary or "glass ceiling" that is set up by the larger white society, they will make sure that all hell breaks loose.

Derrick Bell, a prof at Harvard had articulated this into 5 rules of racial standing:

http://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/rm/define/bellsRules.html

Quoting the relevant here:
FOURTH RULE
When a black person or group makes a statement or takes an action that the white community or vocal components thereof deem "outrageous," the latter will actively recruit blacks willing to refute the statement or condemn the action. Blacks who respond to the call to condemnation will receive superstanding status. The blacks who refuse to be recruited will be interpreted as endorsing the statements and action and may suffer political or economic reprisals.
As long as you dont rock the boat, you are fine. You are the model minority, kept in a cage that the white man has built for you. You are his pet and you will be protected. The Sikhs who were angry at the protests in India were making sure that they dont destroy this carefully built protection by self-denigration.

Any protest in India is a natural way of expression of anger by a people colonized long enough that protest was the only way to make the colonizer sit up and take notice that there is something wrong. Democracy is a way to make yourself heard, but in India we have not as yet seen the peoples voices heard by the baboos, due to the fact that we are still mentally colonized. Thus the protest is nothing but a natural mourning by the Sikhs in India in their Indian way of doing things. It is truly sad that their Sikh brethen across the world cannot see through the smoke and the mirrors.

I feel for the loss of life, the loss of pride: Both in the US and in India

Note: My gripe is with the white power structure, it has more to do with a cultural snapshot of the reality in which I (and the Sikh's live). I have nothing against individual white folks who may be benefiting from the white power structure. I only have issues with both the propagators of it and the shameless lackeys who pretend to be white and get a piece of it. Also note: I am not saying Sikhs here are the shameless lackeys.
Last edited by lakshmikanth on 11 Aug 2012 10:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by A_Gupta »

Sikhs became martial only when their backs were pushed to the wall. Unlike the One Religion Of Peace, the Indic religions are religions of peace. And I am not at all sure why everyone wants to project their own agenda onto the Sikhs of Oak Creek. Very likely, they get along well with their neighbors, white or otherwise; this may be seen as a crime by an outsider.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by A_Gupta »

Think about it, none of the Oak Creek victims or their families likely had the least desire to live or die in the public spotlight.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by lakshmikanth »

A_Gupta ji,

Are you addressing this to me?

EDIT: Saw BobbyP's post above :)
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by SSridhar »

*** Warning ***

In spite of Admin requests, some posters are derailing this thread. Any infringement is going to lead to warning from now on.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by ShauryaT »

Please spread the message.
Dear Friends:

Namaste. We are all aware of the terrible tragedy that befell the Sikh community of Oak Creek, Wisconsin last Sunday. VHPA requests all of you to take part in Sunday services in a Gurudwara in your area to show our support and pay homage to the departed souls. Hindu American Foundation (HAF) has put out a very appropriate appeal to the Hindu community which we reproduce below. Please circulate this among your friends and contacts. We have attached a list of Gurudwaras and Sikh organizations in NJ and Metro NY area for your convenience.

Thank you.

Brotherly yours,
Gaurang G. Vaishnav
VHPA, Governing Council
Edison, NJ


Our GC Member, Brij Bhushan Garg sent the following mail to share with you all:

In view of the Oak Creek, WI incident last Sunday, it will be nice if we sent a message to our members to attend Gurudwara this coming Sunday.

Our members and specially GC members need not do or say anything more than just simply attending the Gurudwara. When I watched CNN,
one of the Sikh leaders also invited folks to attend Gurudwara in their neighborhood. He also reminded me of our tradition of coming together after a death occurs
in the community.

I have not attended Gurudwara but two three times. I know one etiquette is for men to cover their heads when the Guru Granth Sahib (book) is opened. If we respectfully,
quietly follow the other attendees then it will be worthwhile to attend the services in local Gurudwara this Sunday.

Kindly send a brief message to our GC members/others if possible. I can also be reached at my cell phone if I can help in any way.
Thanks.

Brij


=============================== ============================================= ======================================= =====================================
Hindu Americans retreated to prayer and reflection after tragedy struck the Sikh American community last Sunday. At the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin, hatred led to horror when a lone gunmen took the lives of six innocent Sikh devotees preparing for prayer, and wounded several others including the valiant Oak Creek police officer, Lt. Brian Wood, caught in the line of duty. In solidarity with the Sikh community, the Hindu American Foundation (HAF) urges all Hindu temples and homes to join in the Interfaith National Moment of Reflection, this Sunday, August 12, 2012, in commemoration of this massacre that took the lives of:
Suveg Singh
Sita Singh
Ranjit Singh
Satwant Singh Kaleka
Prakash Singh
Paramjit Kaur
This reflection could be a moment of silence or a special prayer for the victims and their loved ones. Temples can choose a time when attendance is at its peak for this moment of reflection.

At the end of Sikh services, a final prayer is performed known as ardas, which asks for "sarbat da bhalla" - the wellbeing of all. It is similar to the following Hindu mantra from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad:

Sarve bhavantu sukhinaḥ
Sarve santu nirāmayāḥ
Sarve bhadrāṇi paśyantu
Mā kaścit duḥkha bhāgbhavet
Aum shantih, shantih, shantih

May all be happy
May all be free from illness
May all see auspiciousness in everything
May none suffer misery
Om peace, peace, peace

As we observe Janmashtami this weekend, celebrating the birth of Shri Krishna and the victory of good over evil, please incorporate this simple gesture of reverence for those who tragically perished last week.
============================================ ======================================== ==============================================================================




_______________________________________________
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Advait »

CRamS wrote:RamanaGaru, kindly cut me some slack as I make some non mourning observations.

For those who are elated that 1000s of Americans including that clown Wisconsin governor Scott Walker for attending a memorial service, please look under the skin. Once again, based on my vast experience watching Americans, I can tell you, they can pack quite a bit a charm and PR show when the going is good. I am not being ungrateful or anything for the white mourners who showed up. But what you guys are missing is the fact that feel good condescension comes easily to whites and one should not mistake that for fairness, empathy etc. Where the true test for whites, or for that mater anyone else lies is how you deal with "others" at a peer-to-peer level or even how do you share power or how much space you are willing to cede for somebody else also to show some feel good condescension (in other words, mutual respect Vs tolerance). On this count, whites fail miserably, or else this climate of hatred and bigotry wouldn't be there in the first place. I mean its all find and dandy for me to shower love on my neighbor by taking him to the hospital after dropping a brick on him out of some other resentment, thank you very much, but should I be dropping the brick on his head in the first place?
+1 CRamS ji.

I find the images of these candle holding whites in Wisconsin disgusting. They never took out the time to understand their Sikh neighbors and are now acting all surprised. Already I am seeing some comments on news sites that talk about casteism within Sikhism. ***Deleted***
Last edited by SSridhar on 11 Aug 2012 16:04, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Post edited to remove irreleavant info. User Warned.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by shyam »

For Americans, Gurudwara shooting is just another incident like Colorado shooting, Arizona shooting and VirginiaTech shooting. They see it as the crime of a gun trotting baddie. When Sikhs are attacked, people argue that they are mistaken for Muslims/Arabs as if attacking Muslims/Arabs is okay or genuine. Even this argument is not good. May be people should start asking what creates such people in America? Is that just the availability of guns? Or, like militant Islam, is there any kind of terror ideology that seeps under the surface of American society that creates such individuals? Is anybody pointing that out and asking leaders to take steps to control that?
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by ShauryaT »

Our Aug 15 rally in NYC and across all cities in the US this year, should be dedicated to the memory of the Gurudwara shootings. An awareness and education campaign for the Sikhs and indeed many Hindus who wear turbans should be undertaken.

What we should not allow to do is to allow Islamic organizations to affiliate with us in anyway on this issue. Our Gurudwaras should be careful about this.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by A_Gupta »

A photo essay: Sikhs in military service in the USA
http://media.talkingpointsmemo.com/slid ... ry-america
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Dipanker »

ShauryaT wrote:Our Aug 15 rally in NYC and across all cities in the US this year, should be dedicated to the memory of the Gurudwara shootings. An awareness and education campaign for the Sikhs and indeed many Hindus who wear turbans should be undertaken.

What we should not allow to do is to allow Islamic organizations to affiliate with us in anyway on this issue. Our Gurudwaras should be careful about this.
+1
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by RajeshA »

Published on Aug 11, 2012
By Gabrielle Levy
Meet Paul Ryan: Getting to know Romney's running mate: UPI
The Sikh temple where six people were killed last week is in Ryan's congressional district near Milwaukee. The national conversation inevitably turns to gun control whenever a mass shooting occurs, but gun owners can rest easy knowing Ryan has demonstrated full-throated support for easing all regulations on gun ownership. The NRA gives him an 'A' rating.
So what does this mean now?
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Basically, it means that majority are fully confident of how the society is set up and run. It means guns are as american as apple pie and will continue to do so.

In all of this the supremacy of anglo-saxon religion is accepted by the general populace. All education of how there are other religions etc., are mere distraction. Being aware of other religions does not necessitate introspection on the american society. The differences between other religions is difference of tweedle dee and tweedle dum to the hoi polloi.

The society has well honed the only difference that matters is:
Is it different from main anglo-saxon following? If it is different, that has to change to main stream. Only the methods and tactics differ. Society is appalled when a looney goes on a rampage to highlight the difference and disapproval of the same, because society believes there are other peaceful means of persuasion, but nevertheless persuasion to conform to the main stream following.

So awareness campagian etc., are exercises mainly for the satisfaction of others in society, so they feel they are doing something. At the core, the american society is convinced that main stream is staple and the top dog. There will be no introspection of main stream following at all. In all the cases of looney gunmen where the gunman didn't belong to the mainstream, there will be call for lot of introspection into others following. But if gunmen is of mainstream stock, the burden of explanation will be for others to highlight how other different kinds of followers contribute to the society and how they are different.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by nakul »

^^^

tl; dr: if the miscreant is from the majority following, he is a lunatic & fringe of the society

if he is from the minority following, he is representative of his community.

Note that you won't find whites apologising that they are peaceful because they don't need to. For a minority, he would be expected to say that his community stands for & represents what. On the contrary, we have Sikhs explaining their ideals when it should be the perpetrators' should do the explaining.

The only reports are that the perpetrator belonged to a white supremacist group. There has been nothing about any actions or charges against this group. How convenient, eh?
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by surinder »

KJoishy wrote: There was a Sikh gentleman on TV yesterday explaining Sikhism and CNN made it clear that it "broke away from Hinduism". CNN never lets a chance slip.
To his credit, he did say both Punjab and India. He did not say South Asia. But CNN then put up a board which said Sikhism stared in "South Asia".
The places associated with early Sikhism (early Sikh Gurus) are in Pakistan. What should that composite Pak-India be called? Indian subcontinent is a word that is falling into disuse, and South Asia is more and more used.
Last edited by surinder on 11 Aug 2012 21:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by surinder »

Carl wrote:This "frustrated neo-Nazi" label doesn't make the assailant a fringie at all, in case that's what the media or folks here are trying to suggest. The US, and especially the Midwest, is teeming with neo-Nazi outfits and militias, many of whom have leader members who are ex-servicemen. This is the norm around these parts today, and I've met many such people. Some of them even wear a hybrid German-American flag pin on their collars in public. And especially since the Obama presidency, the number of militias has skyrocketed, and gun sales have gone through the roof.

One thing such people are very wary about are non-WASP groups who live on US soil that also have militant links or tendencies. E.g. the Nation of Islam, Moslems in general. This is in addition to their conspiracy theory of China's calculated hostile takeover of their country, in league with a section of their own society. All this mixed up with Biblical end-of-days hysteria and how the US will become a battlefield.

Based on my interactions with people from such a background, my guess is that they see Sikhs also as a potentially militant group of "towelheads", and therefore suspect when the next "civil war" starts...since they may ally with the Obama types. I'm not kidding. These guys are quite normal when you meet them personally, and if they happen to take a liking to you then they become solid pals. One such person I know started telling all other contacts that "Indians ain't Ayrabs" after getting to know me, and he even wanted me to join him and his buddies on shooting practice. But if they don't like you, then you're going to find out pretty soon. Its possible that these guys researched Sikhs on the internet, probably saw some KhaliSTAN propaganda and news about the terror campaigns ("stan" = towelhead = dangerous = unwelcome), concluded that these guys are terrorist types and decided to put them on notice. Really ironic.

Some grassroots relationship management is needed for Indians in the US - not just some lobbying on the Hill. Generally these folks see Indian immigrants as harmless guys, but resent that they are taking away a lot of jobs. The other stereotype about Indians is that the Indian customer will "Jew you down", i.e., they are miserly makhi-choos and clannish types who will bargain with you to death. But still they have far less hatred for Indians than others like Mexicans and Moslems - once they know the difference. Many of the hard right types consider India a potential ally. Hopefully the US Sikhs will use this opportunity to identify themselves and educate the American people on this. And they truly do need to make it clear that they are Indian at this point, if they aren't doing it already.
Great post!!!
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by surinder »

SBajwa wrote:This is a perfect time to declare from Akal Takht that Sikhs in USA should discard kirpan and end mass apply to get license to carry a concealed fire arm. Had even one person at Gurdwara carrying a good weapon this might not have happen. Guru Gobind singh told the to carry kirpan in 1699 and now in 2012 we must carry modern automatic weapons to defend ourselves. Sikhs have become just like Hindus of 1699 where today kirpan is as much a symbol as janeu is for Brahmins. No difference between Hindus and Sikhs what so ever at all. Sikhi is/was a reform movement where to protect Dharma(righteousness) kirpan is raised, now it is a impotent as other dharmic symbols.
SBajwa, are you out of your mind?
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by surinder »

sanjaykumar wrote:I no longer identify myself as a Panjabi- what with Pakistanis, Khalistanis, one of the highest murder rates in the world, a swaggering illiterate braggadocio culture, extreme misogyny, rampant alcoholism- what is there to be proud of? Remember realism is the first step on the road to wisdom, at least I practice what I preach.
:) :) :)

What a funny and illogical statement. You emphasize realism, but deny reality in the first place. What a contradiction (see the bolded parts). Funny and sad, if I may say so.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by member_23692 »

surinder wrote:
SBajwa wrote:This is a perfect time to declare from Akal Takht that Sikhs in USA should discard kirpan and end mass apply to get license to carry a concealed fire arm. Had even one person at Gurdwara carrying a good weapon this might not have happen. Guru Gobind singh told the to carry kirpan in 1699 and now in 2012 we must carry modern automatic weapons to defend ourselves. Sikhs have become just like Hindus of 1699 where today kirpan is as much a symbol as janeu is for Brahmins. No difference between Hindus and Sikhs what so ever at all. Sikhi is/was a reform movement where to protect Dharma(righteousness) kirpan is raised, now it is a impotent as other dharmic symbols.
SBajwa, are you out of your mind?

Why ? The hindus have already been dhimmified, barring a few exceptions, now you want the Sikhs to be dhimmified too ? It may just be that this re-arming has to be done very carefully and coupled with a public relations campaign that it is purely defensive in nature, while putting the hater types on alert. I, for one, want to continue to see Sikhs live with their heads up high and with total self respect, rather than calculating like business people, who to keep their heads bowed in front of and who to kick. The more genuine self respect the Sikhs have, the more they will be able to see clear and see that their interests lie with their brothers, the Hindus. The more short term their calculations are , the more likely they are to stray. I think Khalistan movement was and is a symbol of lack of self respect and short term (mis)calculations by the Sikhs.

You can argue that this perhaps is not the right time or the right way to arm, but to characterize Sbajwa's thought as "out of your mind".............really ?
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Jaspreet »

And Bajwa Sab, how come the proud Sikhs, the pride of all martial races in India, have all of a sudden become adherents of non-violence and turning the other cheek, kind of Gandhians and are talking about love, like the flower children of the 60s.
Absolutely. One sees Sikhs rioting, killing and murdering day in and day out wherever they live. The great Sikh PM of India wanted to make the peaceful Siachen glacier a "mountain of violence." Imagine that!

Nobody remembers the last time a Sikh was peaceful. There are no Sikh teachers, professors, mechanics, shopkeepers or bureaucrats. All one sees is sword wielding Sikhs with froth on their moustache jumping up and down wanting to kill, kill and kill.

How dare they say they're peaceful.

They have no right to a peaceful life. Why should they be allowed to raise their kids in a peaceful environment? After all, they're a martial race.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by surinder »

In 2012 the Sikhs in america deserved this because they are Khalistani supporters.

In 1984 I was told that Sikhs deserved to be killed in Delhi, Kanpur, Bokaro etc. for the excesses on Hindus in Punjab & IG assasination.

Great logic!!!
Last edited by surinder on 11 Aug 2012 21:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by surinder »

Let me depart by making one observation. I am not sure why the people on this board have such hatred for Bhindrawale. Why take offence. Bhindarawale was Indira Gandhi's man, after all. Indira had support of Indians and most Hindus who continued to vote for her. So why are you guys not happy to see Sikhs hold IG's agent held in high regard.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by sanjaykumar »

I have long since accepted Bhindranawale as a Sikh holy man-you won't get any argument from me.

I agree and do suggest that Hindus do the same.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by surinder »

shiv wrote:There is, I assure you, a Pakistani hand in moulding North American Sikh opinions.
Any evidence or facts to support this?
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by surinder »

sanjaykumar wrote:I have long since accepted Bhindranawale as a Sikh holy man-you won't get any argument from me.

I agree and do suggest that Hindus do the same.
He was Indira Gandhi and INC's agent in the Punjab to further her and her party's interests. She herself was supported by explicit votes of majority of Indians. So why take offence.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by sanjaykumar »

No offense taken, saar.

A people are entitled to their heroes. I would not expect less of a man to a hero to Sikhs, Why do you take offense?
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by abhishek_sharma »

deleting OT post
member_23692
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by member_23692 »

Jaspreet wrote:
And Bajwa Sab, how come the proud Sikhs, the pride of all martial races in India, have all of a sudden become adherents of non-violence and turning the other cheek, kind of Gandhians and are talking about love, like the flower children of the 60s.
Absolutely. One sees Sikhs rioting, killing and murdering day in and day out wherever they live. The great Sikh PM of India wanted to make the peaceful Siachen glacier a "mountain of violence." Imagine that!

Nobody remembers the last time a Sikh was peaceful. There are no Sikh teachers, professors, mechanics, shopkeepers or bureaucrats. All one sees is sword wielding Sikhs with froth on their moustache jumping up and down wanting to kill, kill and kill.

How dare they say they're peaceful.

They have no right to a peaceful life. Why should they be allowed to raise their kids in a peaceful environment? After all, they're a martial race.

Sir,

I will accept that some thoughts expressed on this thread have been less than sensitive. I will also accept that some thoughts expressed in India during 1984 and in the peak of the Khalistan movement in India have been less than sensitive. Let me take this opportunity to unequivocally and unconditionally apologise on behalf of all Indians (Hindu, Buddhists, Jains, Animists, Athiests, Agnostics, Christians and yes, even the other Sikhs) to all Sikhs who have been undeservedly hurt by such utterances.

Having said that, Sir, you are putting words in the mouths of people on this forum and this thread. No one ever said that Sikhs are all about "kill, kill and kill" and no one ever said that Sikhs have "no right to a peaceful life". All that was implied I think was that Sikhs deserve a peaceful life while still maintaining and without abandoing their essential character and ethos, rather than having to buy this peaceful life by shedding their very essence.

You know, and I address this to everyone on this forum, all posters and administrators. Everyone, in my view, is reasonable, even Jaspreet (despite his outbursts), and everyone is well meaning and no one is malicious. I respect the moderators desire to keep this forum and thread as conflict free, respectful and sensitive as possible. But let me point out something. I have apologised for any insensitivity in this very post. I have seen over the decades, politician after politician, community leader after community leader, religious leader after religious leader, intellectuals after intellectuals, writers after writers and ordinary people after ordinary people, go out of their way and apologise to, commiserate with, and comfort the Sikhs in all possible manner. I dont say there is anything wrong with that. Even in this tragedy, other than this thread, in general all Hindu organizations I know everywhere have come out with expressions of support. Even the Prime Minister of India formally and very publicly apologised to the Sikhs.

Yet....Yet, I have never seen any apologies from anyone to the Hindus. It is as if, Hindus have historically been the biggest oppressors in the world and of all times. I have seen no apologies for any kind for years of armed invasions, atrocities and forced conversions by the Islamic hordes over the centuries. Instead, the muslims of all hue consistently claim grievences against the Hindus. I have seen no apologies from the British, French or the Dutch for any of their acts in this subcontinent. Instead, I see India continued to be treated as a second class nation and people by these ex-colonialists and thwarted in all kinds of ways through all kinds of treachery of policy by the West. When Indians try to even put up a token resistence, they are maligned by the Western media like there is no tomorrow. They lecture India as if it is their brithright. And, I have seen no apologies or regrets ever expressed by the Sikhs for all the bloodshed, for senseless killing of the innocent Sikhs and Hindus, for collaborating with the Pakis, for even the moderate Sikhs getting caught up in the "romance of Khalistan", and most of all for fracturing the very concept of India and putting deep fissures in our society, for putting brother against brother. It is always Hindus who have to apologise. The Sikhs are the prefered people of God. Even their murderous acts are beyond reproach.

Why is it that no one ever apologises to the Hindus ? I would be happy with mere acknowledgement of something wrong being done to the Hindus without the apologies. Why does even an acknowledgement doesnt happen. And when some insenstive tweet does come out of some Hindu with no tact (such as BobbyP), out comes all the indignation, the outrage, the threats of bans, outbursts of the kind that Jaspreet put out and all kinds of recriminations and retaliations. Perhaps, we Hindus are "like that, only". We are lesser humans. We are like cattle. Does anyone apologise to cattle for slaughtering them and eating them ? Anthropologists and other scientists should do a study on Hindus and conclude that we are do not quite reach the human definition.

So, let us all prepare ourselves, to perpetually be in apology mode, like I did in this post and so many others have done in the past. As Jaspreet says, let Manmohan Singhs of this world continue to promise Siachen to be a mountain of peace and let us applaud them for it, but not a peep out of Manmohan Singh about making Kashmir the valley of peace or Punjab the plain of brotherhood. Not one.

I think we Hindus really need to introspect why we are perpetually the victims and continuously subjected to "blame the victim" tirades. There is certainly something missing in us, something we carry written across our breasts, which says, "come kick me, I am a Hindu".
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by sanjaykumar »

Yet....Yet, I have never seen any apologies from anyone to the Hindus. It is as if, Hindus have historically been the biggest oppressors in the world and of all times. I have seen no apologies for any kind for years of armed invasions, atrocities and forced conversions by the Islamic hordes over the centuries. Instead, the muslims of all hue consistently claim grievences against the Hindus. I have seen no apologies from the British, French or the Dutch for any of their acts in this subcontinent.


Indeed India should apologise for not being converted to Islam or Christianity or whatever the psychosis d'jour is. Just as, nominally a Panjabi Hindu, I should apologise if my great uncle chose to stay Hindu and ticked of Hindi on some census. Hindus should apologise that not enough land was provided to Sikh refugees from dar ul Islaam etc and that they could have been even wealthier but for Brahmin machinations.


Hindus have mastered the art of self-censorship and now the most outlandish, the most perverse, the most sordid claims are deemed negotiable instead of being ridiculed and dismissed.


Some took offense at my remark a while back that only people who respect themselves can be respected. Hindus do not respect themselves-until that happens all is fatuous polemics.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by member_23692 »

surinder wrote:Let me depart by making one observation. I am not sure why the people on this board have such hatred for Bhindrawale. Why take offence. Bhindarawale was Indira Gandhi's man, after all. Indira had support of Indians and most Hindus who continued to vote for her. So why are you guys not happy to see Sikhs hold IG's agent held in high regard.
I am not upset at you at all, Surinder, for making that observation. Not upset at all. In fact, I want to thank you, for telling the truth. This one little observation by you is like showing the mirror to all of us Hindus.

What is it that is wrong with Hindu leadership, thought leadership, intellectual leadership, that we have not come up with a common philosophical base, a common lifestyle base, a common theme, a common ethos that unites all of us, so we dont keep on inflicting self goals and even self wounds by bringing up distortions like the Gandhi/Nehru dynasty and frankly everyone that has followed who has not been from that dynasty, regardless of their party has also been a rotten sore. Unless we reflect on this and analyze and act to fix this problem, we will continue to be vicitimized, most of all by ourselves.

Why blame others ?
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Jaspreet »

Sangram, my post wasn't meant for you. It was for BobbyP only. I don't know why you were offended. It was meant for those people who take a unidimensional view of Sikhi.

That's all.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Jaspreet »

Please disregard my posts. It seems that in trying to defend Sikhi I have triggered off Hindu self-flagellation. Posters are using my words for their own ends.

I apologize.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by shiv »

surinder wrote:
shiv wrote:There is, I assure you, a Pakistani hand in moulding North American Sikh opinions.
Any evidence or facts to support this?
Well let me answer this honestly and say why I said that. Sikhs in India are just like me - like other Indians. Sikhs in America are also by and large like anyone else, but like all other immigrants in America are under some pressure to "belong" and be American. That is to be expected. We see such opinions even among BRFites who are not Sikhs.

But I also know that Sikh separatism has been supported by Pakistan, and some of the words used by certain Sikh spokespersons about Brahmin domination and casteism, are so totally unlike the "normal" Indian American and so similar to the statements that come out from Pakistan that the possible influence of Pakistaniyat in the USA is, in my view very likely.

I know for a fact that the US has been tolerant towards anti-India activities by Pakistanis such as Fai. It would not surprise me in the least buit to discover that Pakistan has agents in America dedicated to creating "Punjabiyat" with Sikhs at the expense of other Indians. this does not constitute proof. It s a suspicion. I also repeat that I think Sikhs have been used by Pakistan with the US and Canada turning a blind eye to their munna.

Let me post some personal pisko observations about Sikhs. The turban, beard kirpan and bluff confidence and a history of serving in the Indian armed forces have given Sikhs a reputation for being fearsome that does not always do them justice. Sikhs have no special military gene. They are like you and me. The need to survive with turban and beard in a largely shaven population gives Sikhs a certain character that includes bluff confidence and a sense of humor where they do not get angry with humor aimed at them like many other ethnic groups do. But inside the fierce demeanor of a tall bearded Sikh you will often find a sensitive child like person with fears, hopes loves etc. This is hidden to most people who see only the turban and beard and hear the name "Singh" and think that this man is a violent animal. He is not. He is a plain ol' simple guy like you and me inside. Even Indians don't figure this out. You need a few surd friends before you find this out.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Jaspreet »

Thanks Shiv. That's exactly what I wanted to say. And that's all I wanted to say. Nothing to do with Hinduism or Taoism at all.
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